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Announcer [00:00:04]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob the knife junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:19]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast. I'm Bob DeMarco. On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with Will Zermeno of Zermeno knives. I first met Will and checked out his work at Blade Show 2022, where that year, he won best tactical folder. I met him again in Conroe at the Texas Custom Knife Show this past November where I got a second look at his knives, which are super stout and super sturdy, And I knew I wanted to find out more. He served many years in law enforcement where he no doubt learned the value of a good blade, But what accounts for the artistry in his tactical folders? We'll dig in and find out, but first, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, hit the notification bell, And download us wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you wanna help support the show, you can do so by going to and checking out what we have to offer there. Quickest way to do that is to scan the QR code right there on your screen or head over to the knifejunkie.com/patreon.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:17]:
Again, That's theknifejunkie.com/patreon.

Announcer [00:01:21]:
Do you like the sound of the alphanumeric combinations m three ninety, two zero four p, and twenty c v, with bristle at hcr13mov and a u west dash 8. You are a knife junkie, probably worse.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:35]:
Hey. Good to have you here, Will.

Will Zermeno [00:01:38]:
Thank you, sir.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:39]:
It's good to have Will Zermeno of Zermeno Knives. It's it's cool because when I first met you and, first saw your work at 2022 blade show, I had never heard of you before And hadn't seen your work, but that that's not crazy because, I wasn't really into tactical folders at that moment. But then I saw that you won best tactical folder. I paid a little bit more attention. And then when I saw you in Conroe, I just I just thought, your knives are pretty pretty right up my alley, and a lot of my viewers also know your work. So, I'm I'm really happy to have you here. Congratulations. Be it belated on that, best tactical folder.

Will Zermeno [00:02:26]:
Thank you, sir.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:27]:
Oh, yeah. I mean, how did that feel?

Will Zermeno [00:02:31]:
It was pretty nice. It was, A little unexpected, but, yeah, it was it was the, knife makers guild, the best tactical folder, not the actual blade show.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:41]:
Oh, so actually, coming from the knife makers guild, it's almost a, in a in a sense, a more coveted kinda thing because it's your peers judging you, not necessarily knife enthusiasts like myself or those who run, Blade magazine, but other people who make knives.

Will Zermeno [00:03:00]:
Yes. It's judged by the guild.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:03]:
Alright. So just so people, know what we're talking about, You have any knives around you right in front of you you could show off? Like, maybe the one that won best tactical.

Will Zermeno [00:03:16]:
I don't have it, but it's gonna be a version of it.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:20]:
Oh, yeah.

Will Zermeno [00:03:21]:
It's, of about 8 and a half inches long overall. The, frame is, 1 60 thick titanium, and the blade is

Bob DeMarco [00:03:31]:
3 16ths. So, what is that called?

Will Zermeno [00:03:35]:
Tier, t y r.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:37]:
T y r. Alright. You had that on your business card with some mocha tie and some some fanciness, some sort of a blue well, I have it around here somewhere. But, in other words, it it what what I'm getting at is when you look at that knife and when you pick it up and heft it, it's a sturdy, heavy duty, Hard to use tactical folder, but the way it's treated, the details and such, you give it a lot of of extra. What did what is your tell us, like, your overriding philosophy on on knives and and what you're going for.

Will Zermeno [00:04:16]:
Mostly nowadays, I make what I like, and I'm I'm more into the big overbuilt knives. That's pretty much the rate what I do now.

Bob DeMarco [00:04:32]:
Okay. So you're making big overbuilt over, not overbuilt, but hard use knives. Why? What like, why those and why not slip joints or anything else?

Will Zermeno [00:04:46]:
Mainly because I like them. I I I am looking at doing a slip joint later just to try it just to, you know, to see how it works and just because I've never done one. But At the moment, I do these because they sell pretty well, and and that's pretty much the kind of knife I like.

Bob DeMarco [00:05:06]:
So, I mentioned upfront that you spent a long time in law enforcement, and, I'm making assumptions there. But, in that line of work, I would imagine knives come in handy a lot for pretty much a lot of different aspects of that kind of job, whether you're, at the scene of a traffic accident or whether you're, you know, whatever you're doing. It seems like, knives and law enforcement go together. Tell me, tell us about your law enforcement past And, how that how that fed into your knives.

Will Zermeno [00:05:44]:
I worked for the sheriff's office in Harris County for of Just shy of 32 years. The last 20 years that I worked there, I was an accident reconstructionist, which basically I was one of the people that came out and and, if someone was killed in an accident, Tried to ascertain what had occurred.

Bob DeMarco [00:06:10]:
Well so tell me about that work. I mean, what's what's that what's that like? I mean, it seems like that's the sort of thing you come to Only after years of doing law enforcement work. It doesn't seem like the sort of job you just enter into from the beginning because Seems like you might be taking a lot of experience in seeing those kind of things, before you're actually reconstructing accidents. What was that like?

Will Zermeno [00:06:40]:
It's one of the jobs where they require more training, and it's kind of, Not everybody likes it. A lot of people don't really of Respond well to seeing bodies that have been torn up in a crash. So there weren't a whole lot of us, And most of us that got into it pretty much stayed there. There's somebody that that enjoyed the work and, Also, usually was fairly good with math because we used that a lot.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:16]:
So math, That might be, something that carries over into your into your work right now. But but before we get to that, Is it like puzzle, or is it like putting together a puzzle trying to figure out what happened in an accident?

Will Zermeno [00:07:30]:
Yeah. I mean, you'll you'll gather the you'll gather the roadway evidence, You know, from skid DeMarco, yaw marks, crushed, crushed damage to the vehicles. And they'll use that to reconstruct what had happened, how fast the were going and and to to ascertain who was responsible for the crash.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:49]:
Okay. So before we move on of from that because I I think it's pretty interesting. And actually, I've done some work with our our local, police here. And one time, I got a chance to see the lot Where they hold all the cars that are being investigated or, have been in crashes. And, man, it's, It's very alarming, and it gives you a new respect for that, that bomber. Yeah. That that bomb you're riding around in all day. But, what I wanted to, hope.

Bob DeMarco [00:08:22]:
Why was I saying that? Oh, well, because, When I went there, there was a lot of knife usage, that I saw. And maybe some of it was playing for the camera, but they were using knives to cut seat belts. They were using knives to cut tires. They were using knives, the glass breakers to, there was a lot of Kinda showing off of tools, and knives were, well, that's what I was looking for. They played heavily. How did you, How did you, in your job, come to knives? Or have you always been, like, a knife guy and it just sort of was part of your job?

Will Zermeno [00:09:02]:
I've always been pretty much a knife guy. Strangely enough, the knife that I used most While I worked there, doing that was actually a Leatherman because you had you know, if you needed to disconnect something or Pull fuses. You'd have you'd be able to do that, and you'd still have a knife.

Bob DeMarco [00:09:24]:
So I'm sure you saw lots of grisly things, a lot of first responders do. But before we move on from this, I have to ask you. I ask A lot of service members and police officers just like, what was the weirdest thing you saw? The strangest, most uncanny thing you saw in that job? Maybe something that defied explanation.

Will Zermeno [00:09:50]:
Was expecting that question.

Bob DeMarco [00:09:53]:
Wait. You can answer it at the end of the show, but I'm I'm always interested because because, I I find that law enforcement, 1st responders and truck drivers have to see weird stuff, and it's always interesting to me. So The folders now. The knives. How did it come to pass that you started making them? Obviously well, you said you've always been a a knife guy. You worked in a profession where they came in handy at at at least. How did you get into making them?

Will Zermeno [00:10:24]:
I had a couple of custom folders made, And I decided it would be kinda good to pride myself, and that was about 2007. And, I tore up a lot of nice steel before I got where I could even make a halfway decent knife. So it's kind of an error.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:48]:
So tell me first about this, custom, that you had you commissioned. You had another maker.

Will Zermeno [00:10:56]:
Yeah. I went to a a somebody and had some made. I've also of carried knives in the past. Like, I was kinda fond of the Striders because I really liked that big folder. So that's one of the things that kinda led me to try to Make my own, and I pretty much went with the overbuilt size.

Bob DeMarco [00:11:15]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm a sucker for the overbuilt. What what was, what was the experience like? And I I asked this, partly out of personal interest because this past year, I Had my 1st design made. We made 20 we. He made 27 of them and, and sold most of them And kept a couple for friends and family, but, it was a very interesting experience. And as a guy that who's already a buddy of mine, but Creative collaborations are always interesting. What was it like for you, especially being your 1st, experience making, having one of your designs made?

Will Zermeno [00:11:58]:
In a way, a little stressful because, you know, you got 2 people competing on what they wanna do. You know, you'll have ideas, and and sometimes your ideas are honestly terrible. So you You'll come up with something and they're kinda like, no. That that that really won't work.

Bob DeMarco [00:12:21]:
You find that frustrating?

Will Zermeno [00:12:24]:
A little bit. But, I mean, as you go on, you start learning what you were, you know, of What you were asking, which parts of it would work, which parts of it wouldn't, then

Bob DeMarco [00:12:34]:
Right. Right. I've I've heard that from people who have, well, now you're on the other side of it because you're making the knives, but I've I've heard that from people who, work with OEMs overseas, And, they send a design, and they really love this design, and they think that it's the perfect design. And then they get it back, and it things are changed Because of the engineering, whether it's a difficulty in making it or, or or the actual configuration design is flawed for three-dimensional, production. But I I I find that interesting because That's that is collaboration. You got someone creative saying, this is a great idea. Let's do this. And then you have the realistic person saying, It won't work like that because of physics on our planet.

Will Zermeno [00:13:24]:
That's absolutely true.

Bob DeMarco [00:13:28]:
Well, so then how did you dive into the the making part yourself? Have you always been a handy guy?

Will Zermeno [00:13:37]:
Yeah. Sort of. But pretty much I bought a KMG grinder and, a bunch of steel, and I of went to tearing it up and making it into powder. The first ones were absolutely awful, and since then, it's progressively gotten better.

Bob DeMarco [00:13:57]:
Well, what were the first ones like? Paint a picture for us.

Will Zermeno [00:14:03]:
The fit and finish was terrible. Nothing was countersunk. I hadn't really figured out lock geometry at the time because I stupidly thought, Let me go make a folder first.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:17]:
Yeah. That's what I was gonna say. You started with folders. I made the assumption.

Will Zermeno [00:14:21]:
Terrible decision. I've told people that, you know, that make knives occasionally, you know, fixed blades. They were like, what's something I should know? And I said, there has to be a certain level of self hatred when you first start out because you're not gonna be happy.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:36]:
Especially if you're some sort of of work and and, you know, it's gonna drive you nuts when you start making your own.

Will Zermeno [00:14:48]:
Yeah. Because it it When you have something in your your head, but when you start doing it for the 1st time, it doesn't turn out anything like what you picture.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:59]:
So this is about 2007, I think. Yeah.

Will Zermeno [00:15:03]:
Well 2007 was when I started making it.

Bob DeMarco [00:15:06]:
So now how did you approach this? Did you seek out other makers? Did you was YouTube much of a thing even?

Will Zermeno [00:15:14]:
No. A lot of it was, The Internet, like the usual suspect forums. They they have, like, a a steel dust junkie section in there, blade forums, And, Bob Terzuola's book, I can't remember the name of it now, the tactical folder. Yep. That was I couldn't have done anything without that.

Bob DeMarco [00:15:39]:
That's cool. Yeah. He's, the godfather of of tactical folders. That is a that's a great book to just look through. We gave that book and and a, Terzuola, what do you call it? Production folder here. A couple of years ago, we gave that away, and I looked through that book. And you don't have to be a maker to appreciate it. It's really cool to see.

Will Zermeno [00:16:05]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's an excellent book.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:10]:
So his his model was part of what, Kind of what kind of got you to, get your craft in order. Is that right?

Will Zermeno [00:16:22]:
Of Yeah. I mean, you're looking through his book, figuring out what you're screwing up, and you're trying to, you know, figure out what you need to do to make it a functional life.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:33]:
So, what okay. I think you and I are probably about the same age. I think you and I are about the same age Just from reading your bio and stuff. And so this is a pointed question to sort of pat our generation on the back, so help me out here. But, So you were actually reading a book. You were doing this all by looking at books, maybe a little bit of internet here and there. But how amazing is it that that we all now if we wanna start doing anything, making anything, doing anything, can go to YouTube right here, And look it up. Do you think that would have been helpful, when you were cutting your teeth?

Will Zermeno [00:17:13]:
Yeah. It it really would have. YouTube has got some great of source material now for on how to do things.

Bob DeMarco [00:17:22]:
So alright. Let's let's find out your process. Tell us how you go about making a folder and what your, you know, how how you well, how you do it?

Will Zermeno [00:17:35]:
I pretty much design everything in CAD, and the main reason is I can't draw. I mean, of It it looks like a child with a crayon if you try to get me to draw something. So I pretty much do everything in CAD. And what I did initially was I printed out on paper, lay it out on the piece of steel and titanium, and drill it out and start shaping it, you know, off of the the paper. Now pretty much everything I do, I do it in CAD. I'll have a water jetted out and, sent back to me.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:09]:
What's it like creating in cat? Is that, is that a part of the process you You can lose yourself in, where I assume that grinding is probably that kind of a process.

Will Zermeno [00:18:22]:
Yeah. It it really is. I I enjoyed the CAD part, and I enjoyed how to try to learn how to do, Machining in it, you know, tool paths, which is still something I am not that great at. But yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:41]:
So, with with the CAD, what was the what was the learning curve like on that.

Will Zermeno [00:18:49]:
The 1st CAD program I used, actually, learning curve wasn't that bad. Learning curve wasn't that bad. I think I started out with AutoSketch. The one I'm using now is Fusion 360, and the learning curve fit was a little bit bigger, higher, but I'm starting to get the hang of it now. I I I can 2 d draw out whatever I want. I can three d draw it. Just getting to the point of doing toolpaths is still the biggest thing I haven't learned.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:16]:
Do wait. Doing what? Tool paths? Yeah. Oh, tool paths. Okay. Oh, so you're you no. No. No. I I misheard.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:24]:
So you're when you're designing the knife, you're you're designing its contours, its its outlines, and its surfaces, and then programming tool passes. Is that how it's all carved out.

Will Zermeno [00:19:36]:
For most of my folders, they're completely hand done. I have a couple of them that are done with CNC, but, like, 90% of them are all hand done. Most of the things I'm doing right now with, with, CNC is mostly done just just doing the handles, Like, the handle on this. That was all basically done on the CNC.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:01]:
That is so cool. Okay. Wait. Wait. Wait. Don't put that away. Hold that up. This thing is so cool, and and anyone who knows me will know that this right up my alley.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:13]:
Knuckle duster sort of trench knife style knife. Now this is this is not your, usual bread and butter. Tell us I mean, you you mostly make hard use folding knives, but Yeah. Of Things things like this trench dagger or, the the EDC fixed blade that's, on your, Instagram page a lot. What's it like going between those 2 worlds? They seem very different.

Will Zermeno [00:20:46]:
The folders are actually I do probably 90% folders.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:51]:
Mhmm.

Will Zermeno [00:20:51]:
And it to me, it's in a way actually easier because I I do them in batches and we'll say, like, you know, the tier. I may do 4 or 5 of them at one time, so I'm just used to doing those.

Bob DeMarco [00:21:08]:
So this okay. So here's your Instagram page. I I really like that. I keep coming back to that EDC fixed blade because I'm a big, I I love EDC fixtures.

Will Zermeno [00:21:18]:
Would have that one because we hadn't went to a show yet. But yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:21:22]:
So, what is that? Tell us about that model.

Will Zermeno [00:21:25]:
It's about 7 and a half inches long overall. This one's Nitro v steel. It's 3 sixteenths thick. The screws on it are titanium from, Tie Connector. And the wood, I cannot even pronounce what they call it.

Bob DeMarco [00:21:42]:
Oh, wait. You gotta hold it up, sweetie.

Will Zermeno [00:21:44]:
Oh, okay. Sorry.

Bob DeMarco [00:21:45]:
Yeah. Hold it up, sweetie. Oh, look at that. That is a beauty, and that handle looks Great too. I mean, it looks like something that's, really gonna melt in the head. You'll have a lot of control over, but it looks like a decent size for daily carry. Is that the

Will Zermeno [00:22:01]:
which one it's for.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:02]:
Okay.

Will Zermeno [00:22:05]:
And those handles also were something I figured it was easier to learn on g ten and wood as opposed to titanium and steel. So, like, those handles are actually done on the CNC router, And then I just finished polishing them out with a belt. But, yeah, they're they're completely shaped on the CNC router.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:28]:
Okay. So you you do the designing on, AutoCAD. You you perfect it, and then you start production of of these, of your knives. Do you do them in batches, or do you do them do you have books that you have to of

Will Zermeno [00:22:44]:
Bill, I don't do a book mainly because I'm terrible at it. And if If I have to make something, it becomes no fun, and I don't wanna do it anymore. So I've started to now just make what I want, when I want. And if it sells, Good. And if it doesn't I mean, I'm retired, so I'm I don't depend on the salary for this.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:08]:
Right. Okay. Alright. Well, so if you were, when or I should say if you when you were on the sheriff's department, were you, making knives then? Oh, yeah. I guess you were. And were you making them for your fellow, deputies and such? I mean,

Will Zermeno [00:23:28]:
I I know most most of the nights, you know, to, like, the blade show or of Lake Show, Texas or something like that. I usually didn't try to sell anything at work. I just you know? Yeah. Mainly, it was all Internet sales and then, like, show sales.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:50]:
Because I gotta say, if I was working with a knife maker, especially those guys, you know, or those guys and gals, in uniform, You know, they have a special appreciation for these kind of things. Yeah. It'd be it'd be fun to work alongside a knife maker. Hey, man. If you have any that don't quite fit and you can't quite sell them online, feel free to bring them in here. So when you're designing them, what do you what are you thinking of? What is your goal? I know you said hard use and beefy, but, that's that's not a you know, that's just the the packaging. What what is the meaning?

Will Zermeno [00:24:28]:
I mostly try to do, you know, something that I like fit for my hands. I don't really have any Deep, you know, meaning for anything that I make. It it's just mainly trying to make whatever I like, You know, in in and to see if if if it works out to be useful, cool, and there's been many a times that I've made something and immediately thrown it in the trash. Of

Bob DeMarco [00:24:56]:
You know, that sounded high handed. What is the meaning? What I mean more is, like, what are they for? Because I look at your knives, and on one hand, I'm like, man, that is pocket candy. And on the other hand, I'm like, I wouldn't mind having that in a fight if I had to be in a knife fight, you know, which, of course, that's just fantasy stuff talk. But, to to to look at your knives, and I've held them twice, and I've kind of, you know, poured over them and hefted them. And to me, they they have that sort of, well, self defense y tactical or muscular feel to them. Is is that a part of what goes into them, or is, you know, Is it a

Will Zermeno [00:25:37]:
I think not not really. I mean, I'm I'm not big into knife fighting. I I've taken some of classes on it. Like, I did some stuff, like Steve Turani's class on karambits because I wanted to try to to make 1 at one point and also to just to know how they worked. But, no, I'm not I'm not really big into knife fighting type thing.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:03]:
When the Khabar TDI came out, I don't know if you remember that one. Oh, yeah. Still around. When that came out, there was there was kinda conversation in the knife world about, gun retention knives is what they called them. And, so is that a gimmick? I I always kinda thought That that was kinda gimmicky, but what is it, how did from your point of view as a law enforcement officer and a knife maker, what do you think of that?

Will Zermeno [00:26:33]:
There's a lot of people that actually carry those, I mean, specifically for that purpose. I mean, you know, is it gonna be used for that? Bob Probably not. It you know? But there there are quite a few people that carry those or, like, the Spyderco matriarch, but some people carry that for 1. Like I said, that's you you've maybe you've fought over your knife, of your gun before, but usually you never end up ever having to stab anybody over it.

Bob DeMarco [00:27:06]:
Right. Right. Oh, man. That's, so that's all, you know, theoretical talk to guys like me, but to guys like you and the people you served with, Those are real considerations and and something that, something that I have to remind myself of and and sometimes I talk about this On the show is, is the need to be sort of aware. You know, it's easy to kinda go down the path of, oh, This if this happened, I would do that. And if that happened, I would do that. But to remember that there are legal consequences to what you do. And, if you're into it and you consider knives we're talking about knives here, but if you carry a gun and, obviously, self defense is something you're interested in.

Bob DeMarco [00:27:52]:
You should probably get insurance for that. And, If I were getting paid, I would plug an insurance company right here, but there are self defense insurance companies. As a former officer, of the law, I mean, What do you think that that's have you seen any repercussions of of of people, defending themselves from the law?

Will Zermeno [00:28:22]:
Of Pretty much any it it may not maybe not per se criminally, but usually anytime anybody gets stabbed, shot, hit by a car, there's gonna be a lawsuit. So, yeah, insurance for that, which is one thing that I've really missed since I retired, is pretty nice to have.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:41]:
So, as a retired law enforcement officer, do you walk around? Are you kind of still, count on duty? Like, do you know what I'm saying? Do you have that, always in?

Will Zermeno [00:28:54]:
Yeah. You still think about it. You know, when you go in a restaurant, you always wanna sit down facing the, you know, facing the door. You don't wanna have your back to it. And It's just it's been beat into you for so long that you can't help yourself.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:08]:
Yeah. I mean, we'll we'll go to restaurants And, or, you know, I'll go to the post office a lot, because I send knives around a lot. And, you'll see people in line, these long lines at of post office, and they're all deep in their phones. And I get it. It's a horrible, boring place to be in line. But every time I see that, I'm like, okay. I guess, I guess I'm security, which is not good. So but, Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:39]:
Yeah. I think, I think with a little more attention, people, people would be, would be better off. Well, okay. So I want to find out a little bit about your customers. I know one of them, a a a patron of mine and, and a good friend of the show, recently posted, something about owning 1 of your knives, and it's the tier, the one that you that that you held up. And, so he's a knife enthusiast. I know that. But Who are your customers? Who are the people who are really gravitating towards your work?

Will Zermeno [00:30:12]:
It's mostly the knife community type crowd. We went to gun shows and tried those, and we'll sell a couple, but it's not anything like you would in like a knife show. It's it's mostly the knife crowd.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:27]:
And and what is that crowd like? What how do you see that crowd?

Will Zermeno [00:30:34]:
There's a lot of overlap between the knife community and the gun community.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:38]:
Mhmm.

Will Zermeno [00:30:38]:
But, you know, the the people that are into guns of necessarily gonna spend the kind of money. I mean, you know, they may run around with a $3,000 pistol, but then they want, like, a 19.95 knife.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:49]:
Yeah.

Will Zermeno [00:30:50]:
So There's a lot of overlap, but the knife community is is you know, the hardcore knife community is mostly who we of

Bob DeMarco [00:31:02]:
You know, so I've seen you at at 2 shows. What? Those things are cool. Those are beautiful. If you're if you're just listening, Jim just put a a Jim just put Will's Instagram page up, and now I'm losing track of My thoughts looking at his knives. But, so I've I've seen you at 2 shows over this past year. I I I assume, like most makers, it's a A regular part of how you do business. What what have you gotten out of going to these shows?

Will Zermeno [00:31:33]:
Usually, when I go to a show, all I end up with is a lot of credit card debt. Because, I mean, I'll go there, and I see all kinds of stuff I want, you know, Steel, g ten, carbon fiber, titanium screws. You're usually, that's what I get out of the show. Man, you're stuck in a booth also, so it's not like you get a a lot of chances to walk around and look at things.

Bob DeMarco [00:31:58]:
Yeah. Yeah. But you do have a Chance to talk to a lot of people.

Will Zermeno [00:32:03]:
Oh, yeah. What what's

Bob DeMarco [00:32:05]:
what's that what's that like for you, having people Coming up and asking you questions and pawn over your work and then walking on and that kind of thing.

Will Zermeno [00:32:13]:
It's not that bad. I mean, a lot of times you'll have people that'll have some criticisms. Some of them are, You know, some of them are not as much valid. Some of them, you know, you're like, oh, I never thought of that. So there there's been many a time that Somebody had said something that it just it never occurred to me before.

Bob DeMarco [00:32:32]:
Things like, have you thought about making this more affordable for me? No. Just kidding.

Will Zermeno [00:32:38]:
No. That's like a I had some, A lady woke up one time and was like, you know, I'd buy one of these if you made a smaller one. So I did, and I actually saw her at the next blade show, and she bought the first one I'd ever made.

Bob DeMarco [00:32:51]:
That is so cool. That is so what what kind of, things have you gotten, feedback you've gotten, where you're

Will Zermeno [00:32:58]:
just like, you got the wrong knife maker? You know, everybody comes up to, like, I want I'd really like this, but I'd like it thinner. And then you'll start making thinner stuff, and then the next show, you'll come back and they're like, I would really like this if it was thicker and beefier. So that's one of the reasons I've kinda got into just, you know, I've I've kinda, like, picked my niche, and that's what I'm trying to make knives for.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:22]:
That is that's like the equivalent of, or that's equivalent to an author, finding his voice. You know, you hear people say that, like, So that every time they you read one of their books, you're like, this is a different story, but I can tell from the writing, you know Yeah. That that this you know, who this is. And it's the same thing. Like, you you you want your work to be recognizable, but at the same time, you don't wanna pigeonhole yourself. Yeah. Like, what what how how do you characterize your style beyond, beyond the format, meaning beyond the Beefiness, or or the hard use aspect of it stylistic like, like, one of the knives we just had up looks kinda Persian. It looks, like, investigation in another culture or something.

Will Zermeno [00:34:15]:
Yeah. And I actually do have some completely Persian of knives, and it's mainly because I really liked them. And if I would've thought about it, I would've dug 1 out. You know, I I liked it, and I I tried to make 1, and it's gone from there. But, I don't have one here.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:34]:
Show us another knife. I'm I'm assuming you have some more

Will Zermeno [00:34:38]:
I got a couple. And also have, like, a of larger version of the tier. This thing is about I think it's 11 and a half inches.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:47]:
Damn. That's a beauty. That is huge. I love it. So, When you do something like that, something large for, a larger format, knife or a larger size knife of something you've already done, Do you, scale it up? Is it is this just something that gets scaled up, or do you have to redesign it to make it fit the size?

Will Zermeno [00:35:15]:
A lot of it can be just scaled up, but, I mean, a lot of things, you know let let's say, that is, like, 20% larger than the tier, but then you have to go back in and change like all whole sizes. The geometry usually can stay pretty much the same, but a few things do have to change.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:32]:
When you say the geometry, you're talking about the area around the pivot.

Will Zermeno [00:35:36]:
Yeah. Like the lock to the pivot.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:40]:
So is that something that you can carry from design to design?

Will Zermeno [00:35:45]:
On some of them, yes. I do. I actually like take sometimes I'll take the cuts out of one that works really well. And then I'll just pick it up, stick it over in CAD, and then go from there. And and I pretty much have the lock And the pivot's all already set up. Log down.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:04]:
You can design outward from there.

Will Zermeno [00:36:06]:
Yeah. Like, this is, another one. That's cool. Yeah. And That internals is about on 3 different knives.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:20]:
So who are some, oh, the internals on this, is this

Will Zermeno [00:36:25]:
stop pen and everything on the pivot, and all of that was just lifted out of 1 drawing, stuck in the next one, and I went from there.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:33]:
So, obviously, that's a mechanism that works for you. So to get to that To get to that spot from starting from scratch and teaching yourself how to make a folder, you know, what What was that trial and error like? And and is that a fun part of the creativity, or is that just the necessary, like, engineering aspect?

Will Zermeno [00:36:55]:
It's actually fun part of it, and I I enjoy that, except when I screw up. You know, like, you'll have a great idea, and and you'll you'll Put it out on CAD and, you know, have 1 cut out, and then you go back and find out later that it does not work anything like you wanted it to. So Now if I find one that works really good, it's kind of don't if it's not broke, don't fix it. I'll just take the internals and stick it into the new design.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:23]:
Yeah. I, Yeah. 1st time I heard that concept, it was Jeff Blauvelt of of Tough Knives. And, because I was trying to understand how you, how each time you re reinvent the wheel. Because to me, Setting up a flipper, you know, and a detent and all of that, it's you know, it's like, may as well be magic until you learn it. You know? And, And he's like, yeah. If you just kinda build around that part of it, and it makes total sense. And it's it it it doesn't in any way Seem limiting to what you can design.

Will Zermeno [00:37:58]:
Yeah. I mean, like, the like, the internal stop pin, it If you if you have 1 in a knife that works, it's it's not gonna change that much from 1 knife to the next. I mean, you know, there are certain parts that that you really don't need to change.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:18]:
So from what you're seeing of from your peers, in the custom knife world, custom folding knife world. What are what are some of the, emerging trends that you're you're seeing.

Will Zermeno [00:38:34]:
CNC?

Bob DeMarco [00:38:36]:
CNC.

Will Zermeno [00:38:37]:
Yeah. There's a lot of CNC, which I don't have anything against as long as you actually tell a person that that's what it is. Because I actually have some CNC done knives. Of

Bob DeMarco [00:38:49]:
So there is a category now at Blade Show, and it's best I'm gonna try and remember this. It's like Best machine made custom. That's what it is. Best machine made custom. That. And I think that that's an interesting distinction because Up until I saw that award category just this past year, I kind of didn't pay any attention to People saying, oh, I do this all entirely by hand. Not that I didn't pay attention to it. I have massive respect for, anyone who's doing any of this, making knives in in any way as long as they're good knives.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:28]:
Massive respect. But, the machine made as opposed to the handmade is something that has become bifurcated, and, it's interesting to me. Do you think it's worth That conversation or that division, or or do you think a knife is a knife?

Will Zermeno [00:39:51]:
I'm pretty much along the knife of the knife as long as the customer knows what they're getting. You know? You know? If if you actually made it, of Cool. If you had it made somewhere else, you know, as long as you don't lie to them and tell them where it came from or if you made it, It's it's the same as CNC. As long as the customer knows what they're getting, I don't have a problem with it.

Bob DeMarco [00:40:14]:
Yes. Yes. Okay. I was thinking of just the the maker who has their own CNC, but you're talking also about OEM stuff. Yeah. Right? Like So this is interesting to me because I'm always, curious to find out if someone such as yourself who Makes every folder in house. I mean, you you you'll have stuff water jetted, whatever, but but the point is you make all your knives. They all go through your hands.

Bob DeMarco [00:40:42]:
Correct?

Will Zermeno [00:40:42]:
Yeah. I've had some that were CNC'd by a friend who had who's Much better at it than I am, and I had him do some frames of a different style knife just because I couldn't I couldn't figure out the toolpath to do it. So I had him do them, and and and I've never, you know, anybody that's ever asked. I've always told them.

Bob DeMarco [00:41:03]:
Yeah. Okay. Alright. So you are, in my eyes, kind of a purist. You you make all the knives. But at at a certain point, maybe purist isn't the right term, but maybe at a certain point, to sell more knives, like many knife makers, you you decide to, OEM, have someone else build it for you, a knife that you can have in production that you can sell and kind of have working on the side. How how does that sit with you? Because well, I'm just curious. How does that sit with you?

Will Zermeno [00:41:36]:
It it doesn't bother me. In fact, I've actually have some that are being done right now that'll probably be Maybe it'd be done for the Texas blade show. And it they'll they'll it'll be different. Like, the logo will be different, so there will be no question that, you know, it's not handmade. It's It's not hand ground. It's gonna be a complete OEM, and and they'll have they'll have completely different logo and everything.

Bob DeMarco [00:42:00]:
Okay. So that's really good. I love hearing that, from from maker. So I have a lot of knives, and I want a lot more. And I don't have, you know, custom custom knife budget, pretty much. And so when I hear that makers that I like have, OEMs coming out. Like like Kinison, for instance, down there in Texas, just recently had his 1st OEM knife came out and, come out. And I was so excited about that because It brings design within reach, to people who who really want it, but don't necessarily, have the the resources at the moment.

Bob DeMarco [00:42:38]:
So, that's really exciting. What was it like working, with the OEM?

Will Zermeno [00:42:45]:
It was actually not bad because I already had everything in CAD pretty much, so I just sent it to him and said, hey. This is what I want. And it And to cut down on, you know, the the cost so that I didn't try to do anything, it it's pretty much gonna be chamfered edges, of flat scales. I may do pockets in some of them for, like, an inlay, but it just just to cut down on the overall costs of it.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:11]:
Yeah. And, I mean but that would be sticking with a big part of your aesthetic. A lot of your, knives are, a lot of your titanium frame lock folders, just in case anyone's, listening and not seeing, are, Well, they do have a a plain a lot of them, like the ones that were just showing up. Not very intricate inlays and stuff like that. I mean, they're perfect canvases is for that, but I don't think anyone buying an, one of your production knives would be missing. Oh, this is you know, where are the inlays? So I think that that's a great That's a great, recipe. And, are you divulging on who the OEM is, Or is that something you're keeping under wraps?

Will Zermeno [00:43:57]:
It doesn't it doesn't bother me. Universal Outfitters.

Bob DeMarco [00:44:01]:
Are they America? Are they in the state?

Will Zermeno [00:44:03]:
They're they're gonna be that's that's one thing I I wanted and I specified with him as as long as everything is from the US. The screws, the pivots, of everything is gonna be from the US. So

Bob DeMarco [00:44:15]:
Okay. Oh, so you said universal. Universal.

Will Zermeno [00:44:18]:
Universal Outfitters.

Bob DeMarco [00:44:20]:
Of Outfitters. That is really cool, and that's great to hear. I I'm a big fan of some of the, Chinese OEMs, but, the the conversation that has begun and hasn't stopped, at least on this show, is how do we make them here. And, it seems like more and more I'm hearing people making it work. I know, like, in terms of volume, it'll be a long time, if ever, before we can kinda manage that. But, to I mean, we got a lot of manufacturing. We got a lot of knife people. We got a lot of machinists.

Bob DeMarco [00:44:58]:
We got a lot of shops in this country, should be able to make it work. And, so that's exciting. So, when you when you do this or when you did this and and had your first of OEM project. Did you decide on a number, of knives to make due to what you might expect the demand to be, or Do you have a stockpile? How does that work?

Will Zermeno [00:45:24]:
On on, there's 2 things on that. At one time, Camillus did actually make some of my knives. They made 1, the Jolt. That was one that I designed for. On on these, it's kinda testing the waters. I'm I'm only having him do a 100 mainly because I may end up with a 100 afterwards.

Bob DeMarco [00:45:49]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Will Zermeno [00:45:50]:
Yeah. So it's kinda like testing the waters. If it works out, then I'll probably put in another word for more, but I did a 100 to, like, see how it see what the market you know, even if they were even interested.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:04]:
And is this going to be a, a preorder kind of situation?

Will Zermeno [00:46:10]:
No. I'm of Like, that's getting back to books. I'm terrible at it. Honestly, it's probably gonna go to, like, one of the dealers like, of USMA Blade, I think.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:20]:
Oh, okay.

Will Zermeno [00:46:21]:
I talked to him, and he is interested in possibly taking some or all.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:28]:
Well, that'd be cool. That'd be great. Yeah. That's kind of the I hear you. Unless you have a, real mind for it and an Interest and love for being fastidious about those kind of details.

Will Zermeno [00:46:41]:
I'm I'm terrible about it.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:43]:
Have a dealer take care of of Man, that's that's what they do. You know? So I know that you said that you don't rely on of The knife making, to to make ends meet. But what have your impressions of the knife world as a business? Or, You know, what what is it like running a small business in folding knives?

Will Zermeno [00:47:09]:
It's actually pretty tough. I and I would really feel bad for anybody that tries to make a living at it. I mean, some people do and they do really well, but for the most part, most people probably don't. My my, revenue pretty much is is my tool budget. It gives me a chance to go out and buy new toys.

Bob DeMarco [00:47:33]:
Well, so what is it, about it? Why why would you say that?

Will Zermeno [00:47:39]:
Well, it's just I like I said, well, I I don't depend on it. And I usually just I I do it just for the to make money to buy new tools. And that's pretty much what all my revenue is used for.

Bob DeMarco [00:47:51]:
No. No. No. I got that part. I'm sorry. What I meant was, why do you say you kinda feel bad for people who wanna make a go at it? Like, what part of I mean, I I know. I I can't imagine how hard it must be, but What it what is is it demand? Is it is it the fact that there are so many knife makers?

Will Zermeno [00:48:10]:
It's just kinda hard. You know, like, Somebody was actually at one of the last shows was telling that joke about how to make $1,000,000 as a knife maker start with 2.

Bob DeMarco [00:48:22]:
Yeah. Right.

Will Zermeno [00:48:22]:
So it it's it's it's it's a really rough gig to try to make a living on. I mean, there are some people that do really good at it, and there's some that don't.

Bob DeMarco [00:48:33]:
Yeah. Well, in a way, it's like being an artist. Even though you're not making art, you're making, tools. They can be very art artistically, rendered and designed and all that. But it's the similar kind of thing. Like, if If people don't want a painting, especially a painting for $5,000, they're not gonna buy your painting. You're gonna be a starving artist. That doesn't mean your painting's bad.

Will Zermeno [00:48:59]:
No. But it's also like most of them, you know, when they're starting out, you're not gonna have health insurance.

Announcer [00:49:04]:
Mhmm.

Will Zermeno [00:49:05]:
You know, if something goes wrong, You know, your how to look like. Right now, I'm just getting back into making again because I'm recovering from nerve damage in my right hand. So, yeah, the the 1st month, it was pretty much like that. It's it stayed that way for, like, a month, month and a half. And right now, I'm finally to the point where I can make stuff again, but it's still not there. And I mean, if if, you know, you get hurt and you don't have some some other kind of supplemental income. It can be pretty rough on you.

Bob DeMarco [00:49:38]:
Yeah. And and, You know, I'm sure from your your past career too, you know, something about repetitive stress damage to the body. And, Again, I don't know. I'm not a knife maker, but I would imagine that hours of solitude in front of a grinder, you know, keeping your body stiff and, you know, you've got a mask on, but maybe you're breathing in some if you're not careful, it could become an unhealthy situation, situation. You know, I would imagine, like any job like that.

Will Zermeno [00:50:11]:
Nothing's really nothing in the knife industry is really good. I mean, you know, the titanium dust, steel dust, of Carbon fiber. None of it's really good. And and like I said and a lot of the guys don't even have health insurance. I mean, I still do because I was able to continue it from my, my old job. I mean, I just had to pay the the same premium every month, but, I mean, a lot of these guys don't even have insurance. So if anything happens

Bob DeMarco [00:50:38]:
Yeah.

Will Zermeno [00:50:39]:
You know, they're in a world of hurt.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:41]:
Yeah. Especially with buffing wheels. Those things scare the hell out of me, man.

Will Zermeno [00:50:45]:
Those things are vicious. You know, there had the 1 guy that

Bob DeMarco [00:50:48]:
got a, I I think

Will Zermeno [00:50:49]:
it was a bolster caught on it, hitting him in the chest, and he had been hospitalized with a blood clot years ago.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:54]:
Oh my gosh.

Will Zermeno [00:50:56]:
So yeah. Those are Those are pretty dangerous.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:59]:
Yeah. I've heard I've heard of those grabbing knives and kind of launching them into walls and everything.

Will Zermeno [00:51:05]:
Yeah. I've had it grab, like, bolsters and and pocket clips and all, but, you know, mine has all the little cages around it to keep it from coming back. But, yeah, if you don't, it it launches at a good clip.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:22]:
So what about the process is your favorite part? You know? You you've you you're starting from scratch, before you even have a design, like, soup to nuts, what part do you like the best?

Will Zermeno [00:51:39]:
I really like the CAD part of it, honestly. In fact, I've probably got of Somewhere in the range of about a 100 knife designs on my computer. Mhmm. Most of them were never even made just because I just can't help myself. Off. I'll sit there, and I'll do another one, and I'll do another one just because I'll I I enjoy it. Of

Bob DeMarco [00:52:02]:
Is that where the sorry. Go ahead.

Will Zermeno [00:52:04]:
Oh, it it the software's a whole lot like what we we use at MyExcel blog because we did scale diagrams on fatalities. So I've been using kind of drafting equipment cat equipment for a long time. So it's kinda familiar, and I enjoy it.

Bob DeMarco [00:52:22]:
So is there a a parallel, between, besides the software, Aspect, is there a parallel between what you were doing in your former career, in terms of process with how you make knives?

Will Zermeno [00:52:40]:
Probably not as much. I mean, you know, at the at the sheriff's office, we were all just trying to To grab and get all the evidence together, figure out what had occurred, and, you know, like you'd mentioned, solving a puzzle. Find out what who's responsible and what happened. With the knife, to me, it's it's more of a really expensive hobby. If I didn't do this, I mean, I'd probably be doing something like sitting around the house drinking bourbon all day.

Bob DeMarco [00:53:12]:
Well, that sounds fun. But, yeah. They are knives making knives more productive. You can buy more bourbon, with with the money you make. So, you showed the knuckle duster knife, if you don't mind pulling that up again, just we could take a look at it. And and so this is a knife that's a little bit outside of what you do normally. What what inspired this knife? And then And then tell me what what your what your dream build is, what your what your if you were able to take your flight of fancy wherever, or what what you would build.

Will Zermeno [00:53:51]:
Probably the next thing I'm playing with doing is actually a switchblade. That's that was what I would like to do soon. I just haven't got the time to mess with it yet.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:03]:
So what would that entail? It's taking one of your folders and figuring it

Will Zermeno [00:54:10]:
out how be completely from of from scratch because, you know, the the internals of it will be different.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:17]:
Yeah.

Will Zermeno [00:54:18]:
And and it'll probably be A lot of it cut out on CNC just because, you know, spotting and drilling it by hand, you're not gonna be accurate enough, so that'll probably be done on a CNC.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:31]:
So who's who's knives? Because now I'm trying to figure out what this switchblade would look like, and who knows until you design it. But But it it makes me wonder whose knives inspire you and, and, you know, whose work do you really admire out there?

Will Zermeno [00:54:48]:
Of Les George makes gorgeous stuff. Yeah. I mean, I really, really like his stuff. I like a lot of the Strider things. I'm not really big into the nightmare grinds and all, but I really like the Strider AR was my favorite knife. I carried it at work for of years. So, yeah, that I I did the Emerson's, but I was more into the bigger knives. But, like, my favorite will probably be less of

Bob DeMarco [00:55:16]:
Les George. Yeah. I I'm with you on on Les George. He's one of my favorite makers. He's definitely a nice guy. And he is a very nice and pretty funny guy too. I just did a show on my, 10 favorite designer slash makers, and he was on that list. You know, everything from the v set and, the rock eye and all of the all of his custom folders to his Stuff we were talking about before we rolled here, his knuckle dusters, 1918 knuckle dusters, and then the collaborations He's done where he's had other people make the blades, and he casts those the dusters.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:53]:
It's yeah. He does some he does some great stuff. And I can kinda see, when when you mentioned Strider, I can kinda not see, not see an inspiration, but I could I would put them on the same shelf if they were both in my collection because they're they're both incredibly, robust. And they also They're also, like, nice they're they're they're, easy on the eyes. They look strong as hell, and they're coming out of a place from a person Who's been there? And to me, that means something.

Will Zermeno [00:56:29]:
Yeah. And a lot of things I like about some of those knives also, like of Like, mine or the the Strider's is basically, it's like, I don't really want anything that's really fancy and gorgeous because I'm gonna screw it up. I'm I'm gonna pry something up with it or or jab it into something I shouldn't just because I can't help myself. Not even intentionally. It's just I'm it's in my hand. I'm gonna use it.

Bob DeMarco [00:56:54]:
Yeah. Yeah. For me, it's like, the more fine the point, the more likely I am to drop it On my, cement floor down here in the basement. You know? Oh, that

Will Zermeno [00:57:03]:
happens a lot too.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:04]:
It's just how it is. So, As we wrap here, you mentioned earlier, some of the hardships of, of Knife making and starting a knife making business, and and we all kinda get that. But what would you say to someone starting off? What are of What is a great reward of knife making that might be, you know, worth The squeeze, so to speak.

Will Zermeno [00:57:34]:
It's just fun. It's rewarding to to be able to take a piece of plates deal and and and to make something out of it that's useful and that you like and then you may wanna show people. To me, that's that's most of it. It's just a reward of that.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:51]:
That's, I I like I said, I don't make knives, but I can understand that. And the work that you do, you know is going to, you know, live way beyond us, and there's gotta be some satisfaction in that.

Will Zermeno [00:58:07]:
Yes.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:09]:
Will Zermeno of Zermeno Knives. Thank you so much for coming on the Knife Junkie podcast, sir. It's been a pleasure, talking with you, especially after meeting you twice and, and finding out about your work. Thank you, sir.

Will Zermeno [00:58:24]:
Thank you much, sir. A pleasure to be here.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:26]:
Take care.

Announcer [00:58:27]:
The GetUpside app is your way to get cash back on your gas purchases. GetUpside is an app you put on your smartphone. And whenever you need to get gas, search your area for savings, Claim your discount, fill up your tank, and then take a picture of the receipt with your phone, and that's it. You've just got cash back. Visit the knife junkie.comforward/ Save on gas to get the app and start saving. Again, that's the knifejunkie.com/saveongas.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:54]:
There he goes, ladies and gentlemen. Will Zermeno of Zermeno Knives in 2022. He won best tactical folder at blade show 2022 from of the knife makers guild. And, I have hefted his hand, hefted his, knives in these very hands, and they are Super cool. So do check them out, and check them out on Instagram, Zermeno L nives. Alright. That just about does it for this show. Be sure to check us out on Thursday night knives and Wednesday for the midweek supplemental.

Bob DeMarco [00:59:26]:
For Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DeMarco saying, until next time. Don't take dull for an answer.

Announcer [00:59:32]:
Thanks for listening to the Knife Junkie podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate and review at review the podcast .com. For show notes for today's episode, additional resources, and to listen to past episodes, visit our website, the knife junkie.com. Of you can also watch our latest videos on YouTube at the knifejunkie.com/youtube. Check out some great knife photos on the knifejunkie.com/instagram, and join our Facebook group at the knifejunkie.com/facebook. And if you have a question or comment, email them to Bob center line at 724-466-4487, and you may hear your comment or question answered on an upcoming episode of the Knife Junkie