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Announcer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob, the knife junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:16]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast and a very happy Father's Day 2024. I'm Bob DeMarco. And on this edition of the show, I'm speaking with John Roy of Dawson knives. Though they only came on my radar about 5 years ago, Dawson Knives have been in business for 50 years, making premium custom outdoor adventure knives, swords, and one of a kind masterpieces, proving once again I'm always late to the party. Today, the company is made up of 3 generations of Dawson family knife makers working together out of their shop near Prescott, Arizona. They have a huge following of fans, collectors and users. We'll hear their story and take a look at the beautiful blades Dawson knives creates. But first, be sure to like comment.

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Bob DeMarco [00:01:34]:
John, welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, sir.

John Roy [00:01:36]:
Thank you, Bob, for having me on.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:38]:
Oh, it's it's a great pleasure. As I mentioned recently, Dawson Knives, I know you've been around a long time. I know that now. But but I think when you started selling through blade HQ is probably when I noticed you because I'm always there looking at what's new. And, and lo and behold, you weren't new. You were just new to me, making incredible knives. Before we launch into what you're doing right now, at Dawson Knives, let's talk a little bit about the history. How did the company start?

John Roy [00:02:09]:
Oh, that's a good question, Bob. Our company started actually in 1973. So it was actually founded by Barry Dawson. And that was out of his, garage, using a sharp actually, it was shopping cart wheels to make his first grinder. And so we did a lot with 5160. We did a lot with, 440 C at the time. So this is all back in the seventies. We did really start hitting a little bit of our stride until the 19 eighties when he started making full tang, scale tang tactical knives.

John Roy [00:02:45]:
Our first models was the 101, so it had a double guard, but it was made out 440 c. We just b blasted the blades and put a micarta handle on it with a kydex sheet. So it was it was pretty new and, we wanted to make them tough, so they're a quarter inch thick. But throughout the ages, as we went through the nineties, we started getting more into the Japanese style. And that was something that Barry was always really into. He really studied the Japanese art, especially of sword making. So we did a lot of swords in the 1990s, a lot of katanas, a lot of wakasashis. Barry also worked on doing these new type of tsubas that, he would make in house.

John Roy [00:03:27]:
And we were becoming, at that time with people like Phil Hartsfield and them, one of the top sword makers, of our, era. So, in about 2,000 is when I came on to the scene. So, you know, we we at Dawson Ives, we start from the ground up. So, we're sweeping up the shop and, doing all the sand blasting and cutting out. At that time was with a metal band saw and cutting out blades and dealing with a band saw that kept jumping off the rails. But, you know, you're young and, you've got what you got. You know, we had a 20 by 20 garage, and, it was a lot of fun. So we were making one offs, different types of blades.

John Roy [00:04:16]:
I learned a lot. So I learned a lot and started learning how to grind the blades, all hands on, everything was a 100% handmade. We had different people coming on to the scenes in the family. Lynn was there, Dennis Cook. So they all started having their own little styles and so you'll see some Lynn Knives out there. There'll be a few John Roys, some Cook knives, they're all part of the Dawson family and a lot of Barry Dawson's. It wasn't until 7 years ago that we came out of our garage into our first building, which was a 4,000 square foot building, and we started introducing some CNC machining to it. And today, we're in a 12,000 square foot building with half of our production in CNC machining, and the other half is all handmade customs.

Bob DeMarco [00:05:08]:
Let's go back. You you said you learned everything from the ground up, joining, the company as a young man in 2,000. You learned directly from Barry Dawson himself. What was he like and or what is he like, and what was his experience before knife making?

John Roy [00:05:26]:
Before Barry was into knife making, he was actually in the Navy. He was actually in salvage and he was stationed in Vietnam during the Vietnam War. So he was actually boots on the ground, patching holes in ships and going out there in recovery, getting back whatever was damaged and then repairing them, sometimes underwater. He actually got injured and then came stateside. After that, he started getting into knife making. He's he's incredible with his hands. And that's the thing that I learned about Barry. He was during you know, he knew Chris Reeves.

John Roy [00:06:03]:
He knew a bunch of these guys, Busy. He knew, Jimmy Lyle. He he knew all these guys back then. I've actually got to beat some of those guys. So it's it's been an experience. It's all about perfection. So the one thing that he said is that you can't take forever on it, but you gotta do it perfect. When we were starting, there was a lot of we had what we called the wall of shame.

John Roy [00:06:31]:
And so my first place, we're off there, you know. And, you know, you're learning. But it was kind of a tongue in cheek thing. But we we got to see our progress. That was the main reason. So you could see where you started from and where you're ending up and and how much you have progressed through throughout the time of, working with him. But he was a really kind man. He would give the shirt off his back.

John Roy [00:06:52]:
He had an amazing laugh. He's still around. He comes by the shop just checking in on us on a day to day basis, and, he comes up with the most incredible designs. A lot of them and we're gonna be jumping into that sometime in the future, but he always likes to play around with folders. So that's something that he likes to do. But the art, especially when we get into the swords, that is something that when we are making a sword, we literally put our blood, sweat, and tears and soul into it to make this perfect piece that is not only balanced. That's one thing about dusted knife, swords are very well balanced, but extremely functional.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:32]:
For what? Who's buying swords these days?

John Roy [00:07:37]:
Quite a few people, honestly, collectors. So we have collectors just because we've been around for a while. But then we have enthusiasts. So we have actually have guys that are studying the arts. So that they'll have Japanese or European. So European swords are be, becoming pretty huge. Some of the guys are survivalists, so they want something that they know they can trust their life on. A lot of these guys are serious users.

John Roy [00:08:06]:
And so our swords have held up. We've done a lot of tests over the years and that's why we choose the 2 steels that we do, CPM 3V and CPM Magnacut.

Bob DeMarco [00:08:16]:
So I asked you that because, obviously, I love swords. And, I I don't use them, but I I asked if you would bring out since we're talking about it. Let's see it right here. This is something that to me I would love to own for certain reasons, but it's also extremely useful, it seems. We're looking at a double edged, modern Gladius.

John Roy [00:08:39]:
Yes. We call it the Praetorian.

Bob DeMarco [00:08:41]:
The Praetorian. And, if you're not watching, it's got, it's a full tang with scales, but it also has a beautiful, sukamaki wrap on the handle, and and this incredible finish on the blade. What kind of finish is that?

John Roy [00:08:56]:
So that's our, Arizona copper. So the thing about this finish right here is it's the steel itself. So we actually get that out of tempering. So it brings out all the colors out of the steel, especially using CPM 3B or MagnaCut, you can actually temper it higher. So at about a 1000 degrees and you really start to see the character of the steel. So that's what makes it so unique. It's not a paint on finish or anything of that sort. I mean we do clear Cerakote it but that's just the steel itself.

John Roy [00:09:25]:
Oh, that

Bob DeMarco [00:09:25]:
is cool. It is a really beautiful and unique finish that, you you guys offer. I think you offer 3 different finishes. But I I wanna get back to my snarky question, because not only this is not just a wall hanger, and it's not just something that someone might wanna practice martial arts with cut mat cutting and that kind of thing. To me, that seems like a serious tool you could bring into the field. And you basically have 2 edges, you know, you have double the life of that. If you can get by in the field without touching the spine of the of the blade, it seems seems like it's a really practical tool as well as super cool weapon.

John Roy [00:10:05]:
Yeah. Every single sword that we make, we have to field test. We have videos out there on YouTube or in Instagram where we actually do a bin test. So depending on the steel we use, CPM 3 b can take a lot more abuse than MagnaCut. I like MagnaCut a lot. It's great steel. It's stain resistant, so that's that's a plus for it. But when you're talking about, like, a, bend test and impact resistance, CPM 3 v works really well.

John Roy [00:10:30]:
We can get some of our CPM 3 v swords 60 degrees. Bent test will spring back. We've had a couple that have actually gone 90. They didn't they didn't spring back all the way, but pretty close.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:43]:
Yeah.

John Roy [00:10:43]:
Pretty close. But, impact resistance, we we've tested through mild steel tubing, with no edge damage. So we're we're pretty abusive to them. And then after that, after we do all that abuse, then we count water bottles just to make sure that that edge is still holding up and that you can still swing through. And plus it's fun.

Bob DeMarco [00:11:05]:
So when when you're making swords, are you also knives simultaneously?

John Roy [00:11:10]:
Yes. Okay. Yes, we do. So we're actually training, I'm 2nd generation in the family. So 3rd generation is learning how to grind. They do an excellent Bob. So all our knives are ground by them and they're learning now. One of them actually is doing swords.

John Roy [00:11:28]:
So one of them is grinding our swords. He's gotten there. He's been with us for 6 years. He's a Dawson And he is about 23 years old now. So he's he's been doing it for a long while.

Bob DeMarco [00:11:42]:
I I love the family stories. I love family dynamics and or family knife stories, but this one is 3 generations deep. That's that's pretty intense. How does that work? And and it seems like it's a nice little community, and it's a family too.

John Roy [00:12:01]:
You know, it it is actually pretty amazing. So every day, we don't kill ourselves or or kill each other, you know. We get along very well. Some of us in the family have been together, for 22 years working together, building this business, doing different aspects. Dennis Cook, who married Lynn, married into the business, He's like a brother to me. He's amazing. And he does a lot of the custom work that you see when you see a crusader sword or the Japanese, something with ivory. Anything of that sort, he really works it out.

John Roy [00:12:32]:
And the next generation coming up, we start them at the bottom so that way they can learn the fundamentals, how to use their hands, why we're designing a knife this way, how to grind it, how to shape it, how to even work with leather, kydex, and how to sharpen the blade. So they're learning everything every day. We have them come in usually after school when they start at 14 years old. So they're getting apprenticeship and we're building everyone up in the family. Now whether they stay in the business, that's their choice. But there's so many aspects to it that we find out that everyone stays in for some different type of aspect of the business, but they all have an appreciation and an understanding for knives, swords, and for American traditions.

Bob DeMarco [00:13:22]:
You are mentioning how, with the with the numerous personalities, all all creative forces, yourself included, mister Cook, etcetera, that that that you all have different knives that are a part of your your lineup. What would you say is the overriding unifying design philosophy for Dawson Knobs?

John Roy [00:13:45]:
I think that the overriding philosophy is number 1, it's got to be a tool. You gotta be able to use it. And so we don't do a lot of fantasy stuff. And and if we did, it's functional. So that's number 1, functional. Number 2 is we we do traditional, a one end with the customs. But we also want to do new things, bring in the future. I don't want all our knives to look exactly like everybody else's knives.

John Roy [00:14:16]:
You go to Blade's show, I've been doing that show for 22 years, 23 years now. And sometimes we just get stuck in a rut where everyone's making the same thing, we're just changing materials. So the blade patterns, everything's looking the same. And I want to grow the knife industry into something that can look towards the future and have more function and be able to be different, you know, for the next 20 years. So that's kind of our philosophy in those two things.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:45]:
What would you say from your perspective, is the last rut that say fixed blade knives, something where we know, you know, that's your those are the your waters. What what was the last rut that fixed blade knives suffered?

John Roy [00:15:01]:
I think that we get to a point where everyone in the industry likes to play it safe. I mean, we we get some new designs, but I don't think we've grown too much past, you know, 2014. I mean, if if you even go further back, I think after you saw, like, goosey knives, you know, they they had a really good tactical line. Then we had strider knives and fixed blades and then they moved on to folders. I think that with fixed blades, nobody is trying to push the envelope. I think everyone just changes the designs to the newest steels, which is fine. But, you know, we have to make it new and and exciting for the next generation. I I see, like, my boys coming in at you know, they play games.

John Roy [00:15:53]:
Right? So, they play a game called, like, Halo. And so they they look at this, you know, futuristic stuff and and they just say, hey, dad. You know, can we make something that looks kinda like that later? How would you do that practical? And so something that looks a little more futuristic. And so it pushes us. So we actually have to make it practical and we have to add functions. So if we have a whole I'll show you an example. Like on this blade right here, that hole up at the top actually serves a function with this hole in the back. And so we can actually tie from here down to here to the back and we have done it many a times, so we can make a spear out of this.

John Roy [00:16:34]:
So this whole blade can turn to a spear, now certain blade designs are more used for this, this is more of a harangue style. But this is a screwdriver, so when we have the sheath, it works for every screw on the sheath. So you can add attachments, change your belt positions, have more functionality between the sheath and the blade. Plus you can also use it for the back end, if you had to break glass or pry with it. So the idea is to add more function to it. And what will be coming out soon is the ability to change out handles. So you could do any color change out handles. Is to be able to customize and upgrade your blades and and still retain a type of functionality to it that that's different, that that's pushing a knife more.

Bob DeMarco [00:17:21]:
So would you say that, there has been that that sort of futuristic grab you were describing, say, that your sons were pushing for, would you say that that's come out in in the aesthetics of your knives at all?

John Roy [00:17:34]:
Yes absolutely. I would say within the last, 3 years. I I would have to say that that has changed the look of our knives. A lot of people that have been following our, company has seen, a drastic shift, in our knife, designs and functionality of them. And I'm a traditionalist. So there's a lot of things that I like. I mean, I, you know, working on knives from the late eighties, you know, from the nineties on forward. So, you know, in in my opinion, you know, I kinda like the old, but, you know, looking forward and looking at just where we're going and how everything is advancing, I think that knives need to advance.

John Roy [00:18:18]:
It was the original tool of mankind so keep it fresh, keep it moving forward.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:26]:
Well, something I see Dawson knives doing is, taking care to address the needs of people who EDC fixed blades such as myself, you know, and, you know, we all many of many people live in urban or suburban environments where you're not carrying it on your belt. Yeah. Though I would love to walk around with a sword and a knife on my belt every day like a big dork. I can't. But I do love carrying fixed blades, and they have to be, you know, a reasonable size. And and I know that that you guys have been making that one really cool wharncliffe that I love in that little nest.

John Roy [00:19:06]:
Oh, yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:07]:
So when when did it come along when did this idea come along to make EDC fixed blades and tell me about those knives?

John Roy [00:19:15]:
You know what? EDC is, actually a passion that Barry had and that that just carried on to us because I mean, in our everyday lives, I mean, we can't always carry a big blade. Even as much as we want to, it's, you know, it can be kind of cumbersome, you know, just doing your daily activities, But you always need a blade. Yeah. And so I like a fixed blade because I'm not having to mess with the folder mechanism. You know, folders all have their place and fixed blades have their place. But having a fixed blade in your pocket is so unique. So our first attempts were in the nineties and we used to make a pocket sheet out of Kydex that would, had a tab that would slide into your pocket. And that way, it would still retain the knife when you pulled it out.

John Roy [00:19:58]:
And so we did a lot of those, of course, you know, being made out of Kydex, the little clips would break and you'd have to replace the sheath and each sheath was hand fitted so it took a while. Today, we're getting ready to release some part of our regular models, but in a in the gen 2 scope. And the new sheets are already out for it where you can add a, Utilicalip.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:24]:
Oh, yeah.

John Roy [00:20:24]:
So that way, yeah. And I love those clips. I mean, they're and and it's a great company too. So a great company that has also, has the same ideas and and virtues that we do. But this little clip, you can screw it on there. And that way, you can put it in your pocket with a sheath that is designed to be in the pocket and, really work out like with with blades, like you were talking about the Revelation. We have a Harvester, that's that's another one more a little bit more of a skinny blade. And then you have 2 others, the outcast and the smuggler.

John Roy [00:20:56]:
So, I think I see that growing a lot and I see a lot of people really turning to fixed blades as long as the carry system allows them to be functional inside the pocket and not too cumbersome.

Bob DeMarco [00:21:09]:
Yeah. There's a lot. I talk a lot on this show recently about pocket carry fixed blade EDC because, I'm I'm a long time in the waistband carrier of EDC. But recently, I've gotten a couple of, different knives that are optimized or or actually, they're not even optimized. They insist upon pocket carry, 3 of them actually, from different companies. And I'm, definitely, I'm definitely intrigued, though I still keep going back to the the waistband. That's just habit. But if someone is new out there, and starting or or very interested in carrying a fixed blade, going in the pocket is a is a great place to start or a great place to, you know, put your knife, so to speak.

John Roy [00:21:59]:
It's perfect. I mean, and that's that's one reason why we use the 2 steels that we do because the whole point of a fixed blade is to be tough. It has to hold a good edge because most of the time that it's in your pocket. So if you're comparing a folder to a pocket knife, a fixed blade pocket knife, that's why we like using CPN-3V and MagnaCut. So MagnaCut gives you the stainless capabilities and for a stainless blade it's DeMarco. As far as strength, edge holding, its ability to actually take some impact is pretty impressive. We've done a lot of tests with it. And same thing with CPM3B, how tough it is, how the edge wear resistance is about on par with MagnaCut.

John Roy [00:22:42]:
So we like to get these 2 steels plus they're American made. But putting them inside a pocket for an everyday EDC carry because when you have that knife what we have found is that people are going to be using it for intentions other than a knife. It's just going to whatever happens in the real world, you're gonna be using it for that because it's convenient. It's right there. And you'll think twice with your folder sometimes. I mean not all the times, but sometimes. But with the fixed blade pocket knife, you're gonna go full bore because of the strength. And we have tested that on farm chores, we've tested it on just regular chores, we've tested it out using a screwdriver, all kinds of different tests.

John Roy [00:23:23]:
And we find that the fixed blade just holds up so much better. And the people that we have given it out to for fixed blade EDC really enjoy it and have actually gone from the folder to the fixed blade because of that.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:35]:
What have what do you carry personally?

John Roy [00:23:38]:
So I like this one. This is kind of an in between. So this is the nomad. So the finish is probably a little stuffed, but I just like that size. It's a traditional drop point. I mean, yes, it has some of the new features. I like using the screwdriver part in the back and it's just handy. Being at that 3 and a half, little less than 4 inches just works really well.

John Roy [00:24:02]:
It's only 8 inch thick or just slightly oversized. And it's just perfect balance, it's perfect feel, and I can carry this in my pocket. So it's it's just very functional, gives me a lot of blade. A lot of guys like smaller blades and we offer those, but that's just what I do. I live kind of rural, so, it works out really good, but they all go into town a lot and it's not off putting. And a lot of people appreciate having it, Especially if I'm hiking or something that knife is always coming with me and I could use it for hiking chores. So that's that's what I carry is the Nomad and it works pretty good.

Bob DeMarco [00:24:35]:
So how did you yourself get into knives and knife making?

John Roy [00:24:40]:
Oh, that's a very good question. That was not my intent to start with. I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you that. I, actually went to school at ASU and, I studied microelectronic engineering. So that's that's what I started doing. But, as I started getting more into, I married my wife and that is her uncle's Barry Dawson. So as I started getting into their shop and helping them out, I was a young man, I was 18 years old, and started going through that. I just found out that first off, the high-tech world is pretty stressful.

John Roy [00:25:20]:
But, I mean, I didn't mind the hours, but I wanted to have a life. It was a little more difficult, at Intel to have that. So I just really enjoyed working with my hands, And I enjoyed just the functionality and being able to produce something that I'm really proud of. And I really, really enjoyed that. And so that started driving my passion towards blades and then really coming up with different designs and then testing them because I wanted something real. I didn't want something fake. I wanted something that I could bet my life on. And in my family, I was the only one but they didn't go into the military.

John Roy [00:26:01]:
But that's why we started making nice for the military, a lot of my family members did. And so hearing the stories and seeing how they needed to use them overseas, and what kind of functionality and the quality, That was the other thing. The quality of blades were not there overseas and what we were giving to our servicemen. And so I made a vow that not only are we gonna be American made, but we're gonna source our raw material here in America. So all our raw materials sourced here in America. And that's our pledge to not only our servicemen but also to our customers. And as long as it's the raw material is still being produced here. And that's why I always give the motto and I tell everyone, Keep your money in America.

John Roy [00:26:47]:
Not only can we produce some of the most incredible products, but not we're helping each other out. And we're helping to keep those companies and that manufacturing here. So seeing what they were doing and helping doing, OEF and OIF. So, sending blades, we got a lot of plaques for that because our knives held up really well. We had videos of guys that could take the back end of our blade, sometimes even the edge and going through bricks and chopping through. There's a YouTube video out there of someone doing that. Just showing them that and no matter what need that had arise because, you know, that's just the situation. We had guys that had to change a tire in the lug nuts.

John Roy [00:27:33]:
They they couldn't get them off, so they had to chop off one of the lug nuts using one of our blades. So and they kept the knot, just to show us. So you know, it being able to perform in extreme conditions, and you can only get that with American made.

Bob DeMarco [00:27:48]:
So, how many knives did you send over C's?

John Roy [00:27:52]:
Oh my gosh. I would say somewhere in the ballpark. I mean, this is the estimate about 500 to a 1000.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:00]:
Wow. Well, so that's I mean, you're talking about knives that can chop through walls, knives that soldiers, marines, airmen, can trust their lives, lives with. So you're making something obviously very, very tangible, something that can be handed down through through generations. What there's like, do do me a favor contrast the difference between creating something in the, in the high-tech world because that's still creation. You're you're even if you're writing code, that's you're creating something, and that something can also create other things. So there's a lot of creation going on. But what's the difference between creating something in the, virtual world and creating something in the real world?

John Roy [00:28:47]:
I've been on both ends of that aspect. So I could tell you that creating it in the real world is very nice because it's tangible, so you can hold it and feel it. But on the virtual world, the the the you know, especially with machining, CNC machining, you can actually write the code and actually see it being created, and then it becomes tangible. And that's pretty unique too. So, you know, both aspects are are pretty incredible. I mean, Especially today, both of my sons are going into CNC machining. They've been studying that since 14. They love it.

John Roy [00:29:23]:
We have 3 d printers, so one of them is made like a halo outfit. And so that he takes to Airsoft. And, he actually made it, so it didn't handle the Airsoft, pallet. So, you know, the BBs for that.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:36]:
Yeah.

John Roy [00:29:36]:
But, she you know, it it's tangible. You know? So being able to see your skills coming out and that you can create anything that you want and then have that actually be functional and tangible in the real world is an incredible thing. And that's something that we really need to bring back to America. And that's how we're gonna get the youth excited to make things make nice, manufacture. And you always have to do a combination. Everyone, you can't throw out the old because the old has so much understanding on why we created things that way. And the new is just to be able to assist us to create things that way. So we still need to upkeep the quality, the craftsmanship, but we just need to have better ways of making it.

John Roy [00:30:21]:
And so that's the beauty of marrying the technology with hands on craftsmanship.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:29]:
I mean, that's very encouraging to me because I hear lots of, I hear it quite a bit, through different conversations, stuff I read stuff I hear in podcasts that, to a large extent, we've lost not only the capacity in this country to do things because we've outsourced it overseas to save money, but we've actually lost the ability. Like like, for instance, if we wanted to remake our our electrical grid and make it better, it's like, where did we start? We've got we we have lost some of that skill. And and to me that or or some of that knowledge because we we've outsourced it and it's atrophied. And it just makes me think of lost civilizations, you know, that could have gone so far. And then for whatever reason, probably some of it, their own undoing, they don't continue with and can't do things that they once could. How do you think the I mean, because your company has gone from a a garage and a homemade grinder to a very large facility with CNC machines. How have how have you, how has your company weathered that transition?

John Roy [00:31:41]:
Well, that that's something I hear a lot too. And we joined with other people like Titans of CNC. C. They're doing incredible work to combat this. This new generation, a lot of people are they don't know what to make of it. I have 3 sons, they're all teenagers. And it's a different generation, but you just have to ignite that spark. And to ignite that spark starts in the home, starts with the family, starts with the ability to say, My son or my daughter is a great asset, is gold.

John Roy [00:32:22]:
They're replaceable. And they may not understand the same things that we do. But if you can ignite their curiosity, I did that with a 3 d printer. You know, that's how we got them off video games. And I said, okay, well, you're playing that game, but that's just a game. Don't don't you want something real? I mean, how good would you do in real life? So let's get you into Airsoft. Why don't you make that suit? And I challenged him. And that's the thing, ignite that and help them.

John Roy [00:32:50]:
And you know what, he ended up making a whole soup. Did he fail? A lot. He failed a lot. There's a lot of filament that we used up. But you know what, at the end he made it. It was tangible, it was real. And now he got to run around and actually see what it was like. And now he loves it.

John Roy [00:33:08]:
And same thing with my oldest son. He started making something and he could create something. And ever since he started doing that, he started making knives, he started building parts for cars. He's big into cars now. He's working on a 69 C20. And see they will get to that but you have to bridge it. And the way you bridge it is with technology. If we just say, you know, hey, you know, they're just video game players stuck on social media and all that.

John Roy [00:33:34]:
Yes, they are. But you have to shift their focus and you do that by saying, Hey, why don't you make what's in that game? Or why don't you make what's over here? And they'll have a love for manufacturing and then educate them in that way. Our education is not geared towards manufacturing at all. It's not geared towards an appreciation for knives. It's not geared for appreciation to a lot of our heritage. So if we bring that back and we're able to show them that, hey, you can take these courses. I mean, there's a lot of certificates out there that they can take online that can get them going. That's what we started with with my sons.

John Roy [00:34:12]:
And then they start actually accomplish something and now they have this certificate for the rest of their life. So it's not difficult. I just think that we just need to focus, refocus our attention and say, these are our priorities. Let's bring back American manufacturing. Let's bring back American goods and let's bring back that drive and that spark for creation.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:33]:
So what has it been like practically speaking getting your sons and the youngest generation of Dawson Knives up to speed on creating knives that you can sell?

John Roy [00:34:44]:
Work. You know, it it takes work, but, you know, it's just letting you know, don't be afraid to let them fail. They're they're they're gonna fail. I failed. That's why we had the wall shaved. But keep it. Don't let their failures just go in a garbage can, that's too easy. Let them see where they started and where they're going And see how they're progressing.

John Roy [00:35:08]:
And when you can see that, then you feel like, hey, I'm making progress along my journey. I'm starting to get the hang of this, and then use it. Go hiking. So we take them out hiking and say, Hey, go hiking. Use this knife. Hey, I want you to create a fire. This is how you do it. Dad could do everything but that doesn't help them.

John Roy [00:35:28]:
Let's have them do it. Let's have them go out there. Let's have them use the knife. One thing that we make is a tomahawk and so they love that. They they think that is so cool. Our tomahawk looks so different than anyone else's tomahawk. Throw it. Build a little thing so they could throw it.

John Roy [00:35:43]:
I built a little, you know, just using 2 by fours, cutting them up, putting them on some plywood and having a knife throw it. And they got to make the knives that they wanted to throw. The first knives that they were throwing were junk. But as they figured out, hey, there's certain designs, they just got better and then they made better knives and they got better at throwing. So you've got to get them involved so that way they can see what they're creating and what the purpose and the use is then they enjoy it.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:13]:
Let's look at a couple of knives. You have some around you, right?

John Roy [00:36:17]:
Yes, I do. So I wanna show you, this is one like you were talking about and this is I love this. This is inside the waistband or, you know, behind the back. This is one of my favorites. It's a Japanese style, and we call it the kogai. We just released these. They're on the website for a presale. But I love the weight, it's got a thick back so you're talking about between 3 16ths and quarter inch.

John Roy [00:36:45]:
But it's just amazingly balanced and we do a Japanese interlocking wrap. So we actually learn how to do that properly. Barry taught us it takes a long while to actually get it right. But once you do, it makes an incredible grip and it's extremely functional but it actually stays close to the body and that's what's really important. So it's very concealable but extremely functional. And it's got a slight hull of grinds so that way you get a good edge.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:14]:
Yeah. Oh, that is beautiful. We're talking about a fixed blade Kwaiken with a with a Japanese cord wrap handle. Yeah. I love that sort of proper cord wrap handle. It to me, it gives some of the best grip there is, you know, coming out laterally, your your, you know, the fat of your palm sinks in, then your fingers find a spot, and it just holds. It's great.

John Roy [00:37:41]:
You know, I I I love that. You know, I I I do a lot with g ten and that's a lot of machining, but when it comes to this wrap, that's all hand done. We just literally wrap hundreds of knives and it's all done by hand. And you know, the one thing that you learn when you're doing that is that you'll get a really good grip, you know, having to pull that tight all the time Oh, yeah. Doing the interlocking. Because you gotta keep it as you work that. And when you get to a large sword or even like a katana, you you gotta hold that the whole way down. You loosen up, then you'll have a little part where it's a little loose.

John Roy [00:38:17]:
So you have to or you have start all the way back to that point and do it again. So it teaches you that discipline and it makes it really incredible. So that's one of my favorite knives, the Code Guy. It's a brand new one that just came out.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:29]:
How long is that blade?

John Roy [00:38:30]:
It's excellent. That blade is right at about 5 inches. Okay.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:34]:
I love it. I love it. And you've got, like, a interesting little Spanish notch or something, in the recasto there.

John Roy [00:38:42]:
Perfect. That's exactly it. So not only does it give you a little bit of a sharpening choil right here, but it also allows you instead of putting a blood group, and I'm not a big fan of having blood groups in my knives, but this creates something so if you're functionally using it, whatever happens won't sharpening choil. Right.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:12]:
Right. Right. You're not gonna run into the into the ricasso and get that little smiling feature.

John Roy [00:39:18]:
Yeah. It's where it's really thick there too. You can't really sharpen it, so it makes it easier to sharpen.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:23]:
So I'm display before we move away from the Yeah. Kaiden, it's called?

John Roy [00:39:29]:
Oh, the this knife is the Kogai.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:31]:
Kogai. I'm sorry. Before we leave the Kogai, I just say I have to say I love those little kind of visual flourishes. You've done it. I've noticed it. I gotta be honest. It's like the first thing I noticed about the knives you were selling on blade HQ at the time. I noticed you you had a finger guard that came down just a little bit longer, and it had a like a big notch allowing for that sharpening.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:54]:
But it also looks dramatic. I love it. It looks like an old school fighting knife kind of flourish. Where did that come from?

John Roy [00:40:04]:
So a lot of that comes to so, just from using knives, and and and the aesthetic has to be as much as the function. So sometimes you can have a really functional knife, but it just doesn't look good. But in that particular knife, you just want to be able to get as much hand protection, but you want to add some art to it. You know, add some art to the function. If you look at a lot of older knives, they're very functional, but they added some beautiful art to it. And that's something that sometimes we can get a little bit too caught up on function and then forget the art side of it. So I mean machines, they they could do it well, but sometimes it slows down manufacturing time so people are like, well, we'll make it as basic as we can so we can slam out a bunch of knives. Mhmm.

John Roy [00:40:49]:
And you could do that, but then where's the soul? Yeah. Right? That little bit just adds that little bit of soul into it and that just a little bit of that person and a little bit of that art.

Bob DeMarco [00:41:00]:
That's funny. I agree. I I love a quote unquote clean design as much as the next guy. But sometimes I'm like, oh, is that is that, like, a clean design? Like, they can't make a complex design. Just like I used to paint abstract when I didn't feel like actually painting a figure because that's difficult. You know? But, you know.

John Roy [00:41:21]:
That that's extremely well said, by the way.

Bob DeMarco [00:41:24]:
Well, thank you. But I mean, some some people you can tell it's a part of their aesthetic and other people it's just like, maybe a little too clean for you. So, with with the new generation coming up, and and you've got some new, sort of influences coming in, the design. But what are what are some of your, kinda stable designs that you keep coming back to? I think you were about to pick one up there.

John Roy [00:41:50]:
Well, I was gonna show you actually this one combines both of them. So this is one that I designed with my son. So this is pretty cool. And I really like the Peringue style blade. So it's just so good for chopping and it it it just makes a really tough knife that just screams survival. And I've used a parang style machete before and so creating a survival knife with it. So with that aspect of it, my son came in and he's all like, okay dad, so we're gonna add the screwdriver and we're gonna put this nice sharpening choil right here. So so that'll look really good and we'll still have the tie down there and then we'll make more of a drop right here.

John Roy [00:42:40]:
So that way, it's not such a wide head so sometimes I can caught up in sheaths and makes them a little awkward. And so it combines 2 different styles. So this is a throwback to some of our older ones. My old Prang design back then was called the zombie slayer. Subtle. Yeah, right? So now we take this, aspects of that with this new design. So that way you have 2 generations coming through the designs. That's cool.

John Roy [00:43:11]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:12]:
And and it also has a real, well, like you mentioned, it's a parang. So it's it's coming from Southeast Asia and and, I guess, Malaysia and Philippines. I love those styles of blades, and I love the way that one looks in particular. And it does widen out just a little bit towards the tip. Add a little bit of heft up there, but it's not like you said, it doesn't look like it's gonna get all bound up in trying to draw it. I wanna ask you about the process about how these are made. But before we do, you mentioned I don't wanna forget this. You mentioned earlier before we started rolling that you have a Filipino sword in the offing.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:48]:
Is this what you were talking about?

John Roy [00:43:50]:
Okay. So the Filipino sword, I'll have to bring out a design. I we already have it. We've offered it once, maybe twice on our website, but we only made like one. And this time, we're going full bore. We're gonna be offering them down the line soon. But our Filipino sword is about 20 inches It's almost kind of like a bolo style. So it has that curvature and then the head gets wider and it's partially sharpened on the back end and then has a full sharpened on the other end and it's perfectly balanced.

John Roy [00:44:28]:
So you can put your finger right there, right where the handle starts and so that way you have perfect motion and movement with that sword and it's pretty nifty. Once you see it, it's unlike any of the other swords that we've ever made. It's extremely fast, very quick. We've dealt with a lot of guys in the Filipino Martial Arts, a lot of them are good customers of ours and that was a request. So we made a couple for these guys. But now we're finally gonna release it so that way our customers can have a chance at it.

Bob DeMarco [00:45:03]:
I can't wait.

John Roy [00:45:04]:
It's gonna be coming out around July. So, we're getting it ready for July. I still wanna do a couple little more tests. Our guys are getting a really cool looking Kydex sheet that works with it very well, carbon fiber Kydex look and, to really, set it apart.

Bob DeMarco [00:45:22]:
Alright. So listen up, guys. Time to save up for the Filipino Dawson short short short sword coming up. So how in general are the knives made? You indicated how the the start was very, very simple, and now it is, a well oiled machine. Tell me how they're made.

John Roy [00:45:44]:
First, we we talk, you know, it's it's pretty unique. You know, we might have a barbecue, families getting together and we'll just share designs. So it's different than most people who have barbecues because we're a knife knife making family. So we'll bring out different designs. Barry will have his, we'll have ours and we'll talk about it. And even the kids, I mean, they'll get into it. And so we'll take aspects of different designs and or we might say, that whole design is awesome. Let's bring that in.

John Roy [00:46:15]:
And so it starts there with that creativity process. And then after that, either I or my sons will draw it up and so we'll get into SolidWorks. And then once we get into that, we have a water jet, so we'll cut them out. Water jets are slow, but there's no heat affected zone. So I'm very much about messing with anything that's heat related. So we actually heat treat plates. So we'll cut the plates up and then we'll heat treat the plates and when we bring them out, we'll cut them hard on, on a water jet.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:53]:
Oh, you you heat treat the whole thing before you even cut out the the blade?

John Roy [00:46:58]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:59]:
Wow. That's cool because I've I've heard, you know, I've heard a lot of different, ways of doing it. Haven't heard that. That sounds that sounds fascinating because, you're you're saying that water jet is already kind of a slow process, and you're doing it to harden 3 v or or MagnaCut. So that's that's no walk in the park, I would imagine.

John Roy [00:47:19]:
No. It isn't. And first, we'll we'll surface grind all the plates and we'll check for impurities beforehand before we heat treat. So we wanna make sure that what we're seeing is what we're getting. Sometimes you can already put all that manufacturing and cutting out the blade and spending all that time and then you heat treat it. Now you're seeing all these problems and you already lost all that steel. It's a lot easier to even track it if you're doing it by the plate before you invest all that time cutting it all out and bringing it to production. We use Niagara Specialty Metals, so Niagara Steel and we love the guys.

John Roy [00:47:55]:
They're American made and they produce really good stuff. I know there's a lot of people that have some videos about Oh, we have these problems here or there. Well, problems happen. But as far as us, we've used them for many, many, many years and they have done an excellent job. And if we ever have a problem, I'm not saying we don't, but if we ever do, we just let them know. And that's why we can catch it in that early process before we've invested all the time in cutting out all the blades. So after we surface grind them, then we heat treat it. Now we've inspected it, we've rockwell tested it and then we start cutting it.

John Roy [00:48:39]:
And so once it gets through that cutting process, we'll kiss it one more time on the surface grinder just to clean up any of the you know, any DeMarco, but you really usually don't have much, but just to clean it up. And then it goes from that point to the mills. So we'll profile around them. And right now, we're making a transition to the mills, but right now, we are hand grinding them. And we have, 3 guys that'll do it, and each guy can hand grind 40 blades a day.

Bob DeMarco [00:49:12]:
Oh my god. Are you talking about putting the bevels on? Yeah. Oh, exactly. Blades a day. And we're talking about already heat treated steel. That's

John Roy [00:49:21]:
Yeah. We have to keep it cool. I mean, you're running cool on your grinders all the time and so our belts have to be able to take that water. Yeah. And we're watching them. We're very particular. Even after that, we'll check just to make sure that, the Rockwell is still good. So if we have any problem, but most of our guys are really good.

John Roy [00:49:39]:
They're trained into it. But we're moving to the machines just because it'll be easier. And I like to take the talents of those guys and move them straight into customs. So Mhmm. We have routing machines that do all the handles. They'll get all the handles prepped, and then we'll also have our mills take care of from that point. Everything in sheath work is pretty much hand done. We'll also sharpen them, hand sharpen every single blade just to make sure the bevel's right.

John Roy [00:50:07]:
We'll get the edge angle set right and then we'll run it through the process And then we test every single blade. So as soon as they get done we test for cutting, we test a little bit for strength and then once we think it fit, if everything meets right it goes out. If it doesn't it goes back to be fixed Or if that doesn't work, then it becomes an honorary test blade that we just use to put it through extreme tests.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:36]:
How did you see things change in your process once you started, once you adopted powder metallurgy steel?

John Roy [00:50:44]:
A lot. You know, first off, I'm really happy with powder metallurgy steel because, especially the crucible CPM. First, I know I'm getting 100% America Bay, so that's really big for me. I probably won't use anything else but CPM Steel. Number 2, it is just high performance. There really is, it is the future of steel. We've used everything from D2440, ATS 34, 154 Centimeters. We've used 5160, L6, ADC RV2.

John Roy [00:51:34]:
We've used it all. So we have a very extensive knowledge on all these different steels. But I have never seen anything just, especially with CPM 3B, that has just performed. They could just take abuse like no man's business. I literally can almost not destroy that steel. I'll give you an example really quick. We were testing for Tomahawks and we were thinking of going with MagnaCut. MagnaCut is awesome.

John Roy [00:52:00]:
But when we were doing impact resistance and just seeing how well it can take impact, this MagneCut just, we could get some cracks on the MagneCut. But for stainless that's incredible, I mean with the abuse that we're doing. We took the CPM3V and we went ahead and hit the anvil at full blow and we cracked the anvil.

Bob DeMarco [00:52:26]:
Yeah.

John Roy [00:52:27]:
So without hurting the steel. Wow. And so yeah, and so we have test videos of that. So that's what I mean. I've just never seen a steel like that and that's in that powder metallurgy. So that's why we use these 2 steels because if you're skinning and you're bush crafting, Magnecut works great because it's a little bit more edge and if you're in an environment like Florida, go for it. It's gonna be awesome. That's why we use that.

John Roy [00:52:54]:
If you are a pure survivalist and you just want a blade that will never break, CPM 3V is the ticket on that.

Bob DeMarco [00:53:01]:
So did the adoption of those steels mean that you had to buy more expendables like belts and other things? Did that did that change all of that, how you do business that way?

John Roy [00:53:13]:
Yeah. We actually had to come up with our own proprietary heat treat too.

Bob DeMarco [00:53:17]:
Oh, wow. Oh, no kidding.

John Roy [00:53:18]:
So our heat treat doesn't follow the exact standards. In fact, we can actually get a hard line on CPM3B Steel and we can get a hard line on MagnaCut also, so on both steels. But yeah, we watch our consumables go up, we watch the different types of belts, now it's bits being used and keeping it cool. Once you learn 1, once we had 3 v down, we're like, alright. And then we went to MagnaCut. We're like, and it was a whole different ballgame.

Bob DeMarco [00:53:54]:
You know, you're 3 generations in. You're you're obviously full steam ahead. What do you think the main challenges are gonna be for Dawson Knives, going into the future?

John Roy [00:54:06]:
You know, I I would have to say, not to be complacent, To keep changing. To keep pushing it. Sometimes we find something that works and that's all we want to do. I have learned to be malleable, humble, and to really listen to what our customers say because they're the most important asset of this company. And to really impart that because nothing is going to be more important than what the feedback your customers are giving you. I've had to change my she's out a lot. My first original designs for my customers who are probably watching watching this will be like, Yeah. And always evolving.

John Roy [00:54:46]:
Just keep going. Take criticism, take it in stride. And that's something I try to impart to the next generation. To be humble, to be humble, to be humble, to be humble, to be humble, to be humble, to be humble, to be humble, to be humble, to be humble, to be humble, to be humble, to be humble, to be honest, to be honest, to be honest, to be honest, to be honest, to be honest, to be honest, to be honest, to to impart to the next generation, to be humble. And I say the last thing, I think that is the most important just because of who we are as a company, faith in God. That's something that's really big in my generation, But being lost in the next generation and to really stick with that, and that that helps you be humble, that helps you to find peace, that helps you to be focused and it helps you to know that you're not always in control and that you're not perfect, that you're always striving to be better and to be grateful.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:33]:
Well, John, that sounds like the perfect place to to wrap this up. Of course, you and I are gonna talk a little bit more for our Patreon members, but, I wanna thank you for coming on the Knife Junkie podcast and talking Dawson knives.

John Roy [00:55:46]:
Thank you very much, Bob. Oh, a little caveat, for your listeners, we are going to give them a 15% discount. The discount code will be knifejunkie. So that way they can have that and I really appreciate being on the show. Being able just to share our family story and a little bit about some great American manufacturing.

Bob DeMarco [00:56:09]:
Oh, man. John, the pleasure has been mine and thank you so much for that very generous 15%, off on the purchase of a Dawson, knife at your website [code 'knifejunkie']. Really appreciate that. Thank you, John.

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Bob DeMarco [00:56:42]:
You know, the more knives you get, the more 15% off actually saves you. So, look at it that way, we could all be walking around with Pretorian, by this time next year on our waist. There he goes, ladies and gentlemen, John Roy of Dawson knives really love their stuff. Be sure to check them out. Follow them on Instagram. They seem to update on the on the regular, and I hope you were at Blade Show and enjoyed checking out their work there. I also hope you came up and said hello to me and to all you fathers out there. Happy Father's Day.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:14]:
Your job is very, very important and cannot be, undersold. So, stick to your guns no matter what anyone says. Happy Father's Day. I love you all. For Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DeMarco saying until next time, don't take dough for an answer.

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