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Announcer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob the knife junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:12]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast. I'm Bob DeMarco. On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with Ben Belkin. If you follow the show, you know Ben Belkin, the man behind Jack Wolf Knives, The brand known for its consistently superlative slip joints that took a foray into modern folders mastering that while maintaining the traditional aesthetic. Well, Ben and Jack Wolf have brought their 1st fixed blade knife to market and I'm really excited as a fixed blade guy to talk to him about this new development. But first, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, hit the notification bell, and download the podcast, your favorite podcast app. Also, share the show with a friend. That helps greatly.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:55]:
And if you wanna help support the show in a different way, go over to the knifejunkie.com/patreon and see what we have to offer. Again, the knifejunkie.com/patreon.

Announcer [00:01:05]:
The Work Sharp Professional precision adjust sharpener lets you sharpen your knives with confidence and consistency. Get yours today at the knifejunkie.com/worksharp.

Announcer [00:01:16]:
Ever visit the knives online in the hopes of satisfying your need to possess them in the real world? Then you have a problem. You are a knife junkie.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:25]:
Ben, welcome back to the show, sir.

Ben Belkin [00:01:27]:
Good to see you again, Bob.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:29]:
It's good to see you too. And, just days ago, we were, hanging out in person at at Blade Show. It's always really awesome to see you in person. And, like many people I only see virtually throughout the year, I I forget you're you're you're taller than you are here on the screen.

Ben Belkin [00:01:46]:
I remember that's what you told me when you saw me the first time in person. You said, you're taller than I thought you'd be. Jeez.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:52]:
Sorry. Sorry I repeat myself, it's a family trait. How was Blade Show for you?

Ben Belkin [00:01:57]:
It was great, man. There's a lot of work leading up to it, so it's satisfying when everything goes according to plan. And, you know, it's a blade show, man. It's like or it's Disneyland for us. How how can you have a bad time?

Bob DeMarco [00:02:12]:
Yeah. It's true. A lot of lot of great people and just, man, knives that I I take in, you know, because we take in everything with our eyes, but but only throughout the year am I like, oh, I should've gotten that that old World War 1, or World War 2, you know, Randall I saw. Why didn't I that was only this amount. Why didn't I buy that? You know? Well, I didn't see it at the time. I saw it, but I I only saw it months later.

Ben Belkin [00:02:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's, there's a lot to take in in Atlanta over the weekend.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:44]:
So, did you get a chance to leave your booth and see anything else, see anyone else's else's work?

Ben Belkin [00:02:49]:
I did. I I do it, but I always feel guilty the minute I walk away because I know the minute I walk away, somebody who wanted to talk to me is gonna show up. So I try and you know, that's my responsibility to be there. So I leave in limited, you know, allotments of time. But there are people who I only get a chance to see them at the show. And so I have to make time for them. I'll show you what I bought if you'd like to see.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:18]:
Oh, I would. Definitely.

Ben Belkin [00:03:20]:
So like you and like, you know, a lot of people right now, I'm kind of in the fixed blade craze, really enjoying them. So this is a fixed blade knife from one of my best friends in the world, very talented knifemaker named Corey Dunlap. And this is, EDC sized wharncliffe with Fordite scales and a yellow G10 liner. Not exactly sure what steel he has, 52100 maybe or maybe it's MagnaCut. I'm not sure. Shows you how much I really care.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:54]:
Yeah.

Ben Belkin [00:03:56]:
Handrub finish. Dude knows how to make a knife. He knows how to heat treat. I love this thing.

Bob DeMarco [00:04:02]:
That is beautiful. And Fordite, what a tell tell everyone what Fordite is in case they don't know.

Ben Belkin [00:04:09]:
So Fordite is automotive paint, and what happens is when they spray cars at the factory, obviously, they're spraying a lot of cars, they're spraying a lot of paint, and the excess collects in some kind of trough, I would presume, and it hardens day after day, layer after layer, color after color. And somehow, someway, these big chunks of automotive car paint scrap find their way into the open market. I've seen it sold in big literally, they're not like blocks in the sense that it's cut into a rectangle. It's just chunks, oddly shaped chunks. They almost look like logs. And it's sold by the gram or by the pound. And I've seen jewelry made out of it, rings, earrings, pendants, But of course, knife handles is where we're what we get excited about.

Bob DeMarco [00:05:06]:
Yeah. God, that is beautiful.

Ben Belkin [00:05:09]:
Might have been you, Bob, telling me at blade show that people are able to identify often from colors within the Fordyte what factory this came from, which car factory.

Bob DeMarco [00:05:21]:
That was not me, but that's an interesting, factoid.

Ben Belkin [00:05:24]:
Yeah. So, you know, if there's like a bright lime green or something that only GPUs is on Wranglers and it's inside, you know it was a Chrysler deal. And, I don't know if that's specifically correct, but I think you understand what I mean.

Bob DeMarco [00:05:40]:
Yes. And you can see from this, from this scale here that, you know, there's a number to yellow, red, orange, blue, white. God, that is cool. Hey, would this be a material you would use in Jack at Jack Wolf?

Ben Belkin [00:05:55]:
I don't think it's feasible. I think, first of all, for production knives you need with the sheets or I mean, ideally you're buying sheets, you know, of material cut to a very specific dimension. Sometimes you can get away with different sized sheets, but the nature of this stuff coming in these odd shaped break off chunks, I don't know. You know, I'd have to it would be, a special request. Let's just say that. And I would love to do it. I could tell you that much.

Bob DeMarco [00:06:29]:
That would be cool. I I could see how that would be a serious problem, for production not having sheets of the the exact same width and the exact same dimensions to, to, mill mill you know, maximize the the sheet for how many scales you could output. Speak of okay. Speaking of fixed blades, I wanna talk about the fixed EDC. But before we do, one last thing about Blade Show. You're, you've been forged in those fires at this point. It's corny. But you've been there a number of times.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:07]:
The first time you were there, you had nothing to you had plenty to show, nothing to sell. Like, you've been, there at a number of different levels and you're right in the center of the room and you do a a great business. Any advice you would give to people who are, you know, starting out at tables or wherever? I could I could walk by and and certain people seem to have something and certain people didn't. What what would you say? What advice?

Ben Belkin [00:07:34]:
Yeah. That's a that's a great question. So this was my 4th Blade Show. I started at a table, nothing to sell, prototypes on the table, trying to promote what I was doing and just build interest in what I was what I was working on. So my advice would be so first of all, don't be afraid to go. That's number 1. If you think about it every year and you've never done it, just do it. That's advice number 1.

Ben Belkin [00:08:01]:
Advice number 2 is you have to engage with people because if anybody's been to Blade Show as a spectator, you immediately recognize how overwhelming the whole thing is, the sensory side of it. Like, everything you're seeing, all this the dull roar of the crowd, people bumping into you, so you're overstimulated. And so people walk by your table and they don't they're not real they're looking at everything and nothing all at once. And so they're not going to necessarily come to your table and ask you questions. You have to actively gather people's attention and ask them if they're interested in looking at or hearing about what you have to show. So it's like, I don't know, for an analogy, it's like fish swimming right by your boat. If you don't scoop them out, they're not gonna jump in for you, you know? So the first couple of times you do it, maybe it's a little awkward. But man, after you talk to like 3 or 4 people, it just gets easier and easier.

Ben Belkin [00:09:06]:
So don't be afraid to say, oh, hello, sir. How are you doing? Would you like to see this slip joint knife? Or hey, my name is Bob. I'm the knife junkie and I've developed a couple really cool fixed blades. Would you like to see them? And they say, sure. They're waiting for you to make first contact and I think that's critical. Another thing, don't sit down. Sit down when the show is over. Stand up.

Ben Belkin [00:09:27]:
Everybody walking by you standing up. One biggest mistake I see a lot of guys do is this, they're sitting behind their table like this, the the energy is, I'm not interested in talking to you. You know? Like, it's it's really off putting. So if you can just smile, talk to people, and show why you're enthusiastic about what you're doing, I think you learn a lot simply from the interaction you have with the public. What did you say that made that person nod? What did you say that made them raise their eyebrows? Like, what did you say that made them lose interest and glance away? You know? And you start to hone your message, your narrative, your story. And there is no better way to do that than at a knife show when you have an opportunity to speak with 100 of complete strangers with varying levels of expertise, varying levels of interest in your product. Yeah. That would be it.

Ben Belkin [00:10:32]:
Just get there, be charismatic, don't be afraid to talk to people, And learn from the people you're talking to.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:41]:
Yeah. As a spectator, I would say that that last one is super important. Don't sit down. And you know what brings me in is someone saying, you can pick up whatever you want. You know what I mean? Even if it's something exquisite. They know I'm not buying it. You know, it's some, beautiful, big, custom thing, and, you know, I just tell them their work is beautiful because it is. Like, all of it.

Bob DeMarco [00:11:07]:
It's all good, you know, at least the stuff I stop at. And I guess my point is, well, I agree with you a 100%. You have to reach out. You are the anemone, and there are fish swimming by. Okay. Enough of my corny analogies. Let's talk about this, because, as you know, I'm a fixed blade lover, and I'm a Jack Wolf Knives lover and I'm a traditional lover and they're all coming together right here. Tell me about this knife and what made you design it?

Ben Belkin [00:11:39]:
So I got really excited last year at Blade Show when we introduced the gunslinger. And that project was essentially a year in the making. And I recognize that at bladeshow is a great opportunity to introduce something new and exciting because there's a lot going on there. And so if you want people talking about what you're doing, then have something worth talking about, you know, not just the same old thing. So that's one factor. Another factor was since the very beginning of this, I've been interested in expanding my offerings. Jack Wolf Knives, not Jack Wolf Slit Joints. So, there's like a logical progression here.

Ben Belkin [00:12:26]:
And I think the logical third product category would be a fixed blade. I wasn't sure exactly what form that was gonna take in the beginning, which is why I didn't start there. You know, I started with what had the clearest vision, which was the slip joints. But after owning some pocket sized fixed blades and thinking about how my customers use my knives, it seemed that a pocketable, compact fixed blade would be the most attractive thing to my existing customers or people who are sort of in tune with my brand and my offerings. So after Blade Show ended, I I mean, within 30 days, I got to work on designing this. And it literally took me the whole year to have everything ironed out and bring this thing to the market. We were solving problems up until the day we left with this. A lot of that had to do with it's a brand new packaging concept too.

Ben Belkin [00:13:27]:
I'll grab the

Bob DeMarco [00:13:27]:
box in

Ben Belkin [00:13:28]:
a minute or you probably have one. I got one right here. Yeah. So I just wanted to have essentially a Jack Wolf Knives fixed blade that you could carry in lieu of your Jack Wolf Knives pocket knife. Not really necessarily a companion, but like you could carry this and this be your everyday knife versus like I've got this big fixed blade under my, you know, I'm concealing it under my jacket or my flannel shirt and then I've got this pocket knife I pull out for slicing my apple, but this fixed blade is here for the dirty work. You know, that's not what this is. This is in lieu of my pocket knife.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:05]:
That's pocket fixed blade. Yeah. Pocket knife. So I've I've been talking a lot about, some of these kind of pocketable fixed blades, but they're still within that, sort of larger tactical realm for me, at least the ones I've had experience with. This one to me when I opened it up was like, yeah. This is perfectly in keeping with your brand thus far because it's it's luxurious, you know, with this beautiful leather sheet, and, it's got one of your most adored blades and a small coffin shaped handle, the same handle, that appears on the, after hours.

Ben Belkin [00:14:44]:
And the midnight. Correct.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:45]:
And the midnight. But it's definitely in the pocket knife realm. What I mean is, this would never replace the the fixed blade knife that I carry here. This would be, like you said, my pocket knife in here. I have I have the release right before it, the Mini Cyborg, and if you look at it, they're about the same size. How did you zero in on this size for the fixed EDC?

Ben Belkin [00:15:11]:
So that's a great question. So it's very tempting to make this thing what I would consider a small, full sized fixed blade. To me, I would define that as a 4 inch handle and a 3 inch blade. I would call that a full sized knife. Essentially, open up a midnight jack or a cyborg jack, like one of my bigger slip joint knives, open it up. And if you had a fixed blade of that size, I would not consider that a I mean, it is still an EDC fixed blade, but it's not a pocket fixed blade to me anymore. Somewhere you gotta draw the line. We could argue everybody will have their own definition of that.

Ben Belkin [00:15:48]:
I'm just sharing mine. So what I tried to do was stay within a design constraint of a 6 inch overall package. Because if you're going to have an essentially a folding knife that does not fold, which is how I define this. This is a pocket knife that does not fold to me. Right. You're going to have a non folding pocket knife. It ought to be smaller than a unfolded pocket knife. Since you can't break this down to 4 inches, how small can we get away with and have it still be usable? And to me, the answer was 6.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:24]:
Does that make sense? Yes. That makes total sense.

Ben Belkin [00:16:27]:
And then, like, so so that's that. Now if I'm gonna have 6 inches of form factor, I really wanted to have what I would consider the the sweet spot on the blade length for me is 3 inches. So, that's leaving you with basically a 3 inch handle. Now, is that a full 4 finger grip? Not really. I mean, in the reverse grip you can choke up and get it, but fortunately, we have this little thing called a lanyard. Right? So there's a lanyard post in here. You can see it on this Ultem version. And by the way, they're all skeletonized inside just like this one.

Ben Belkin [00:17:03]:
You can just see it on Altum. But there's a lanyard here, so you can add a lanyard, put a big, you know, a small lanyard, a big bead or whatever and get that 4th finger on there for that additional level of control if that's what you want. Frankly, for the tasks that this thing is gonna go through, I don't need a 4th finger on this knife. Yeah. I can cut whatever I need to cut everyday carry without having some hammer grip on this thing, you know? But if you want it, that lanyard can do it. Here, I'll grab one that has it.

Bob DeMarco [00:17:34]:
This, coffin angle Oh, yeah. That looks nice. That's the abalone?

Ben Belkin [00:17:39]:
Yeah. This is the traditional pocketknives.com exclusive. Oh, boy. So, boom, there it is. Right? I've got that 4 finger grip, I've got the pull the lanyard to make it retrievable from the sheath, and then I've maintained the look, which was important for me. I didn't wanna have a bore going straight through this thing Yeah. Where it's threaded through the scales. And so we were able to put in the coffin, one of the angles of the coffin handle, essentially a stop pin, you know, same principle.

Ben Belkin [00:18:14]:
And it all just came together nicely, I think.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:17]:
That angle that you're talking about where the lanyard post resides is actually, you know, I don't necessarily have a 4 finger grip. My hands are, small enough that it fits on that angle and it it kinda butts in there. So it it feels very secure to me, you know?

Ben Belkin [00:18:36]:
Yeah. If I come up with my thumb here, I'm I'm on that angle. I got my hands are pretty big. But and, like, it just you know, everybody's hands are different. If you pinch grip this thing, you can get a 4th finger on there. Yeah. But there's going to be some compromise if you're going to have the pocketability of a 6 inch overall knife, unless you want a 4 inch handle and a 2 inch blade. But to me, that's just that that didn't suit me per se.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:05]:
Yes. They still have to look good. It still has to be a beautiful, overall package. Speaking of which, you put you brought micarta back into the fold on this one with this beautiful DeMarco, dark black linen micarta. I love it. I love how saturated the color is because, sometimes the sometimes that sort of dusky look from micarta gets on my nerves, but this polished deep black is just, so nice. Why'd you why'd you bring back my card up?

Ben Belkin [00:19:39]:
Well, let's just say the squeaky wheel gets the grease and, boy, is that wheel been squeaking, man. My carter people will let you know at every step of the way. Well, if I was only in my carter, I'd buy it. So we'll we'll see. You know? But I I have no disliking for it. I just I did I wanted to do it different this time. And I've really fallen in love with the linen micarta's. Like, we did a lot of canvas and there's a lot of canvas on the market and I have nothing against canvas.

Ben Belkin [00:20:13]:
I feel like the linen is just a little more refined. Yes. It's got a tighter weave so it just looks more elegant to me. And we did prototype it without the polished finish but once I saw this I was like, That's what I want. That's what I want.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:28]:
And then with those bronzed, the bronzed hardware, it looks so good.

Ben Belkin [00:20:34]:
Yeah, and I think the stonewashed blade really ties the room together.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:39]:
So this is my first stonewashed Jack Wolf knife. Okay? And I'm excited. I like it.

Ben Belkin [00:20:47]:
I mean, first of all, like fingerprints wipe off, you know, with absolute ease.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:51]:
Yeah.

Ben Belkin [00:20:52]:
And it's got that sparkle to it. You know, I make sure that the stonewash had that that sparkle.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:59]:
S 90v blade steel again. You were formerly using m390. This is a while ago. Actually, you probably have more blades now in s 90, than m 390. Is that correct?

Ben Belkin [00:21:12]:
We started yes. Because it went from April, I think there was about 8, 7 or 8 releases in M390 and then I switched. So definitely more s 90b at this point. I'm I'm not I'm the 1st guy to admit I'm not a steel stop. I I'm not overly particular about these things. I do, however, I am a knife collector and I'm sensitive to the fact that people do like to collect different steels and I'm not, what's the word I'm looking for? I'm also I respect the fact that different steels perform different ways and have better are suited for different tasks. Like, I get all that. I'm just not overly picky for my daily use.

Ben Belkin [00:21:54]:
That's the caveat.

Bob DeMarco [00:21:56]:
Yeah. I'm kind of in that same camp, but I like knowing that it's s 90v and that it can do anything, basically.

Ben Belkin [00:22:03]:
Well, it it kinda forced me to do the research because I went with M390 because it was a known quantity, but I also recognize that a lot of people use it and a lot of people had a lot of it. And so, really more so than a perform like, I had no performance issues with M390. I was just what else might people who are interested in these types of knives what other type of steel would they wanna see? And I did ask people who know a lot more than me about this stuff, and I kept hearing s 90v. So I looked into it and I'm like, man, this is really a good choice for this stuff because it has really good edge retention. It's, you know, corrosion resistant, and it's not the toughest steel in the world, but these knives aren't really designed for the tough jobs. They'll they'll handle it, you know, probably most things you could throw at it. But for a slip joint or in this case, a thinly hollow ground fixed blade for slicing,

Bob DeMarco [00:23:01]:
it's hard to beat. So you mentioned it took you about a year to 0 in on the design or or or to kind of work out all the problems, which is kind of surprising to me because I think of a slip joint like this, having a lot of a lot more difficulties. There's a lot more engineering. There's a lot more to consider than a fixed blade, at least so I thought. What were the challenges?

Ben Belkin [00:23:29]:
Well, really, this is only 1 third of the equation. This is a third of the equation and then the package is a third of the equation, the packaging. Right. So if you're gonna bring a product to market, it's more than just this. You know? It's it's the whole thing. And what I've what became really clear to me as I was buying more and more fixed blades is not everybody puts enough effort into either the sheath design or the execution of the sheet. And which you learn really quickly can be frustrating because this is it spends more time in the sheet than it does out of the sheet. And anytime you need the knife, it's coming in and out of this thing.

Ben Belkin [00:24:19]:
So it can't be an afterthought, at least in my opinion.

Bob DeMarco [00:24:23]:
Oh, I agree a 100%. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I carry a lot of fixed blades, but the ones that I carry, the ones with great sheaths. Even if the knife is awesome, if it has a bad sheath, it ends up staying in the cabinet.

Ben Belkin [00:24:35]:
Yeah. It's I mean, it to me, it's like at that point, it's it's it's a bad knife if it has a bad sheath because it doesn't stand alone. If it's a desk knife and it sits on the desk, who cares? Right? Whatever. It never goes anywhere. If you're gonna carry it, it has to have a sheath that doesn't like, it's gotta be a solution and not a problem. And the way I would best describe it is if you buy a knife that has no sheath, you bought a solution and a problem. If you bought a knife that has a poor sheath, again, you bought a solution and a problem. Because your problem is I got a I need a new sheath or I need a sheath or whatever.

Ben Belkin [00:25:12]:
Right? You don't have a solution. So I really put a lot of time, energy and focus into the design and execution of this sheath. We went through multiple leather types. We went through multiple clips. We this was sized 3 different ways before we landed on this. And then you can't really finalize the packaging until you finalize this stuff because there's a die cut foam inside that houses these things. Right. You know? And then the way I do everything, which is like making my life harder, I have a magnetic box.

Ben Belkin [00:25:46]:
I could have just slapped a barcode sticker on that box and called it a day. But, nope, we had to go with VHS style sleeve. Well, you know, the fitment of that sleeve was not it was easier said than done, getting that sleeve to fit right. So, like, that's what I mean. It's and you're trying to get all, you know, multiple versions of the knife to get the size right, multiple versions of the skeletonization to get the skeletonization right, then multiple versions of the sheath, multiple versions of the box and the sleeve.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:18]:
I did not think of all the packaging, you know, the packaging dilemma. Everything has to be worked out 100% before you even move to this, this part of the process because on all your other knives you you you have that nailed. You know, you had the tube, you have the the carrying, pocket case, you have the 2 stickers, and the cleaning cloth. You know, that's the same each time, so each time it's same but different. This is just different different. Let's talk about the sheath. I'm I'm really impressed with it. First of all, the leather is just sumptuous and mine is starting to break in, nicely.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:58]:
And by break in, I just mean starting to show the knife a little bit even when I take it out. But I haven't carried this much because it came when I was away at blade show. So so, looking forward to carrying it and wearing it in that way, but, tell me about the challenges and what your ultimate goal with, this sheath was.

Ben Belkin [00:27:18]:
Sure. So first of all, I wanted something ambidextrous because I'm left handed. And while I can use a right handed frame lock or bolster lock, no problem, You know, a slip joint, I don't really care which side the nail nick is on. To me, it's basically an ambidextrous knife. A fixed blade and a sheath is the blade is either the right way or the wrong way when it's mounted on your person. Right? So then the other thing I started thinking about is, you know, this is a pocket friendly fixed blade, so if you're gonna clip this on your pocket, but then if a guy wants to reverse it and put it on his belt, now all of a sudden a blade turned around. So, in order for this to be a truly, sheath with as much utility as possible, it had to be an ambidextrous sheath. So, I started working I designed it in CAD along with the knife.

Ben Belkin [00:28:18]:
And I figured out that if I allowed like, one downside of this design is it might not suit other future knife designs, but so be it. The knife can sit in like this or, try not to drop this on my lap, it can sit like this. So it's ambidextrous. And because of the nature of the tip on this thing, which is ridiculous, the sheath has to be very sturdy so that when you sheath this knife, you don't just push it straight through. The other thing that was important to me was clip retention. I tried several clips that are too loose, And what happens is even after the knife or the sheath is broken in, when you pull this out, when you go to retrieve the knife from the sheath, you really just remove the whole unit from your pocket. And I think that kinda defeats the purpose of the pocket clip more or less entirely. Yeah.

Ben Belkin [00:29:15]:
So I kinda took him to the task of finding me a really stiff clip and this one does not disappoint at all. It actually has a little ridge in there that kinda helps bite down, or if you have a belt, it'll hold it secure on, I think, an inch and a half inch belt right there.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:31]:
And that's perfect for over the seam of the pants or even in the waistband if you're I don't know if anyone's gonna do that, but, that clip is really excellent. It's very stiff, and, yeah, that's the last thing you want. Pull it out, and then you have to deal with the sheath. You have to hold the sheath, put it back. That's the one thing with, with slip joint pocket, protectors. What do they call them? Pocket Slips. Yeah. Slips.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:00]:
Pocket slips that, you know, used to bother me. But now, to me, it's a time to check out the slip because I love the Jack Wolf slips and how they break in, and that's a part of the experience. Whereas before, like with my, all of my GECs, I would just have one universal slip that I threw everything in and I kinda didn't care too much about. So they didn't have the same character. This has a lot of character. It reminds me I mean, we were talking about how this is or maybe I mentioned, it's a very classy it's like a very gentlemanly fixed blade knife. And this to me reminds me of, the seats in my Ferrari, you know, which I don't have. But, you know, like that white stitching or the the red stitching, whatever it is, that high contrast stitching on beautiful, you know, supple but very stout leather.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:53]:
Also, the welt here is essential, you know. I I have no you know, I'm very gentle when I'm putting this in because I'm aware of how sharp that point is, but there's an extra layer of leather, as as in most good sheaths, you know, that will take the bite of the knife and not the stitching. And all the little details on this I appreciate how the flip is housed, in this piece of leather. You know, it's riveted and then kind of sewn in with this piece of leather that's so tightly fitting. Like, everything about this is, you know, I really appreciate. And then, of course, it's got the the cool Jack Wolf logo embossed in there. What was the reaction? What kind of reaction were you getting from this night?

Ben Belkin [00:31:39]:
I think it's been overwhelmingly positive. I'm really curious once they get out into the wild.

Bob DeMarco [00:31:46]:
Mhmm.

Ben Belkin [00:31:46]:
Not everybody wants a knife this small. I get that. I think that'd be the only real criticism I've had so far is, oh, it's smaller than I would like and I get that. But this is you've got to start somewhere. And I think that most people who are not just looking at specifications and actually get this in hand will realize, like, for what this knife is intended to do, this is the appropriate size package without going larger than it needs to be. And that's really what I was aiming for. I also let me just mention Yeah. I was very torn.

Ben Belkin [00:32:26]:
I had to make a decision. Do I sell this with this sheath with or without this pocket clip? Because I was initially hell bent on doing no clip and having this as a pocket dropper like all my slip joints, you know? But I really thought about it and I'm like, be too stubborn here. The market probably wants a clip because that's how most people are accustomed to carrying their knives. So that's kind of one of those situations where I had to acquiesce and use my better judgment and, you know, not necessarily exercise, like, my total control of the situation. But I will say, I've got in about 30 days, I'll have I think I ordered 30 of them without the clip. So if anybody's gonna want 1, I'm gonna sell them separately on my website. I don't know what price yet. I'll make them reasonable as I can because these are not cheap, obviously.

Ben Belkin [00:33:19]:
I'm not looking at these things. Yeah. But but Yeah. And and that being said, if it's going to be a pocket dropper, that's why that size matters. If you hold this up, I wish I had one handy. I don't have a sheet handy. But if I had one of my Jack Wolf sheaths, it's about the size as this thing. Yeah.

Ben Belkin [00:33:39]:
You have them. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:40]:
Yeah. A little little bit.

Ben Belkin [00:33:42]:
Lay it on top so the tops line up. So, really, you don't have you're not sacrificing a ton of pocket room. No, not at all. You have that thing.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:52]:
Yeah. It's just as wide, if if not less at the top because of the taper. And then, you know, that little point, whatever, that's gonna just dig into the bottom of your pocket and and keep it oriented properly. I I think you were smart in putting the clip on though for the major run of these because that is ultimately, you know, I think this is a great gateway fixed blade. It's it's way more than that, but if people have never carried a fixed blade before, this might be a great way for them to start, you know, because of its size, because of its, you know, its its approximation to a modern folder with a clip that that we're all used to carrying, but has the form factor of a slip joint and the overall size of a small open slip joint. I think it's a great way for someone to familiarize themselves with carrying a fixed blade and and, you know, who knows, Seek more.

Ben Belkin [00:34:54]:
I agree. Yeah. I agree. I've been carrying this for the last couple weeks. I've actually been carrying it on my back pocket so that I you know, I have my main pockets free and I love it back there because I can still reach it. I can turn around and resheathe it one handed now that this is broken in.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:11]:
Mhmm.

Ben Belkin [00:35:12]:
You know? It's not like super quick like a kydex. You just take your time, get it in there. But man, I can sit in my desk, I don't feel it. I can drive in my car, I don't feel it. It's a really nice way to have a knife that won't fold if that's what you prefer. And and there is definitely more like, a slip joint knife, you know it folds, and so you know what you should and shouldn't do with it. This thing, you have more flexibility in your use of this knife as you would with any quality fixed blade.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:45]:
That's funny. I sit on my Jack Wolf knives also usually when I first get them to to get to get the, leather started, you know, wrapping around the the knife and form fitting, it's it's kinda dorky, but, that is the reason. And you don't feel it. You don't notice it. I think that's a great place, to carry it, especially with the clip. It's not gonna start, you know, it's not gonna flop over, or anything like that.

Ben Belkin [00:36:11]:
It literally does not move.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:13]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's stout. So when you went to work on the packaging for this, did you have to go to all new was this a whole new, you had to reach out to new businesses and such?

Ben Belkin [00:36:28]:
Yeah. Total different vendor, so it was from scratch. And the design I'm trying to think of what I wanna say here. New vendor from scratch had to make some compromises. Like, there really wasn't anywhere good to put the pog, so I had to ditch the pog. I wasn't too thrilled about that. I almost didn't do the stickers, but I was like, I think the stickers will stay in without sliding out. I haven't gotten a call from a dealer yet saying, dude, stickers are sliding out everywhere.

Ben Belkin [00:37:01]:
So fingers crossed on that one. It needs to be durable and present well, but it can't be too gigantic because you still got to box them up and ship a box of them to a dealer, you know? Yeah. So you're just kinda starting from scratch with that whole thing. And then the sleeve design, well, that's me and Sean Tiffany, like, what do we do? We have a literally, we have a blank slate. And he was the one who's like, man, if this thing looks like like a graphic novel or a paperback book or a VHS tape, like, that would be really cool. And I was like, oh my gosh, dude. Just go for it. You know? And like the Midnight Jacks, we've done 2 artwork pieces for Midnight Jacks.

Ben Belkin [00:37:43]:
We did the first one where he's howling at the moon, and we did the second one where which was the Sportsman's Warehouse limited release where he is kinda on the edge of a he's on a cliff also, but he's kinda looking at you. So we ripped we ripped off that, and we kept with the, you know, kind of him butt naked in the moonlight. And, man, Sean's just getting so good at doing Jack Wolf knives. Like, I love it. And when people saw this thing, you could just tell they had that that's what we're looking for, that art appreciation reaction. Like, oh, dude. That's sweet. You know, I love hearing that.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:22]:
Well, I I I got it. When I opened it, it was like, oh, man. It's like a DVD. It's like, you know, it just felt like and then you you turn it around, same thing.

Ben Belkin [00:38:32]:
Reading the, oh, it's this one about

Bob DeMarco [00:38:34]:
not not that you usually did that. I just looked at the picture,

Ben Belkin [00:38:37]:
COVID. Right.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:38]:
What's meant this? But, it really strummed down that, and then you have the one here that really strummed that chord for me. I'm, of course, old enough to remember how awesome it was on a Friday night to go to to, what was that called? Blockbuster. Blockbuster, sorry. Yeah.

Ben Belkin [00:38:55]:
It's a it's a It's a nod to physical media, you know? It barely exists anymore.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:01]:
Yeah.

Ben Belkin [00:39:01]:
And there's a lot of people who are I'm targeting that are old enough to remember that experience. When's the last time something made you think about that? You know, like, Friday night at Blockbuster when you finally made it there in the movie you went to go read that has three sections of the wall and it's gone. Yeah. You know? And then I tell my kids, I'm like, you know how when you go to watch Netflix and you scroll past, like, 500 little thumbnails. I'm like, that's what we did, but we just walked along the wall, like, looking up, looking down, looking up, looking down. So you looked at every damn movie in the store, you know?

Bob DeMarco [00:39:39]:
And and when you didn't know what you wanted, it was images like that that reeled you in. I mean, I can still remember the covers of the one that still sticks out of my mind is I Spit on Your Grave. I don't know if you remember that. I never saw it,

Ben Belkin [00:39:52]:
but I remember the cover. Or like Hellraiser with Pinhead on the front. Yes. You know? Like, some of those movies, you would just be looking at those like, I gotta see that. You know? And it was nothing more than that artwork to present to you an emotional response. You know? And it's super disappointing when what's inside sucks. But if what's inside is awesome, you're telling everybody about it the next day at school or at the water cooler or whatever, you know?

Bob DeMarco [00:40:21]:
It's it's, interesting to think about how integral the packaging is to the Jack Wolf Knives experience. I know we've talked about this all along or you've talked about this all along and it's been the subject of our conversation, but, you are you are many knives in now. How many knives? 26?

Ben Belkin [00:40:41]:
20 I think we've done I know you're gonna pin me on a question, I wanna answer perfectly. Around 23 releases, 23 or 24 releases, some of them have been doubles. So So I think this is the 18th

Bob DeMarco [00:40:53]:
unique knife, I think. So a lot of opportunity to, well, to do 2 things, really lock into it, which is what you and, the 2 artists, right, 2 artists you've worked with have done, or kinda like, let it go, that was cute for a while, but it's too expensive, it's too much effort and I could probably charge as much and not offer that experience. I mean, how how Obviously, it's important to you. What about when you're buying stuff from other people? How important is that for you?

Ben Belkin [00:41:24]:
It's important. I think it's funny you ask me that because the amount of effort I put into it, I almost, like, don't expect that from other brands because my whole intention was to do something no one else was doing. So, I don't get disappointed when people don't put the same level of effort in to what I'm doing. I am unimpressed when I know it's just a box they source from the OEM that has their logo on it. I don't I don't frown upon it, but it doesn't impress me, you know? If people are willing to go the extra mile and put some effort into it, I'm impressed and I appreciate it. I don't like, well, I'll just put it in the white cardboard box and put it in a ziplock bag. Like, you know, if the knife is inexpensive, okay, I get it, but a $300 knife, like, improve my customer experience. Like, who doesn't like buying an Apple product and peeling off the cellophane with the little tab with the arrow on it and, like, sliding that box open as it, like, suctions down, you know? It does sound fun.

Ben Belkin [00:42:32]:
I can tell you right now, Bob, if I was going to buy music, whether it's an album or a CD, of course, we just download it now or stream it. Or if I was going to buy a DVD, like, I'm looking at that stuff. I want a cool photograph on my album cover or cool artwork. And sometimes bands can get away with, like, the Metallica Black album or whatever, but because that was because they earned the right to do that for that album. You know? But, like, if all you have is your name written in the bottom corner, it's like, yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:08]:
Yeah. Well, I mean, people are buying something more than just a tool. I mean, obviously, when they're buying a Jack Wolf knife, they're buying a a really excellent tool, very well designed and considered and very well made, but they're also it's more obviously, it's more than that because only collectors and people who really love knives get Jack Wolf knives, I would imagine. And they are in for that experience. That's that's what they want. That's what we want. Yeah. It's an enthusiast product.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:37]:
It's for enthusiasts.

Ben Belkin [00:43:38]:
If you're enthusiastic about knives, you're in it for the you're in it for the functional art. You're in it for the expression of creativity. You're in it for the joy of collecting something. You're in it for the buy, sell, trade with other people who are enthusiastic like you. It's not just about specs. It's not just about how well this thing cuts. Of course, as enthusiasts, we have very high flash and substance. You know?

Bob DeMarco [00:44:16]:
Well, I mean, so far, you you have delivered just that. At first, I treated my Jack Wolf knives with kid gloves, and then, I think it was with the, with the Benny's clip I realized I didn't have to and I think maybe it was something about having the sabre grind on there, the sabre hollow grind, and then I realized, oh, these are all stout as they're all super stout, but I treated them with kid gloves because they're also, like, beautiful and precious to me, you know? But they are hardcore for slip joints.

Ben Belkin [00:44:50]:
Yeah. They're the modern expression of what has historically been a working man's knife. All the trades that our forefathers participated in where people weren't working behind desks and computers quite as much as they are today. Those guys had slip joint eyes. Men on farms, men in factories, you know, slip joint knives for 100 of years. So if you take that form factor and you have thicker blade stock with hollow grinds and modern steels and modern heat treats and titanium to keep the weight down but yet is stronger than steel. And then even these materials like carbon fiber, this stuff is super strong. So while it may look fancy, it's still you know, if you were blind and couldn't see what it looked like, you'd be really impressed at the performance of these things.

Ben Belkin [00:45:48]:
Definitely not dainty.

Bob DeMarco [00:45:50]:
How much do you think or how much, is the precision and the lack? Let me let me start this over again. How much do you think the high tolerances and the precision of the hafting and the manufacturing and the sitmitten and everything, add to strength?

Ben Belkin [00:46:09]:
Well, I think strength is probably just a function of, you know, the sheer mechanical strength of the thing. You've got the thickness of the blade, meaning the blade stock. You have the thickness of the material around it and you have a clamp force from the screws. And so I think it's probably up to just about anything you certainly, it's up to all tasks you should be doing with a slip joint. And I think you can even flex these into tasks you shouldn't be doing with a slip joint and you'll find that the knife will perform. Could you break them? Sure. You know, I think if you were to break these in any way, shape, or form, you might chip the cutting edge or if you drop it on the tip, you could bust a tip. You know, if you drop it on the concrete.

Ben Belkin [00:47:00]:
Mhmm. Same goes with a lot of knives. Yep. But I think as far as a tool that's heirloom quality that you could literally pass down to your son and his son, like, they'll do it. It'll get the job done. It's not gonna get loose. You know, one thing sorry. I just had my thought Yeah.

Ben Belkin [00:47:20]:
Kinda go tangent for a second. I I was talking to someone about pin versus screwed construction, and this goes to what you were saying. One thing about pins is you can work those loose over time and there isn't really any easy way to fix it other than to take it to someone who can repine them. You know? And then if you repene the pins or tighten the pins, then you got to regrind everything. It's like a whole procedure. But with screws, just tighten them. And so, if you think about the longevity of these things, they're not going to get loose on you. Simply tighten them.

Ben Belkin [00:47:56]:
Re lock tight them and you're in business.

Bob DeMarco [00:47:59]:
I also have fun, well, I've dyed 2 sets of scales on my knives. They come the scales come off super easy, but they are definitely mated to the knife itself because you can see the markings, where the makers were were being sure that they had the exact right scale for the exact size, side of the of this particular knife, which to me is amazing, you know. We've talked a lot about your future plans over time and I've asked about different patterns and suggested different patterns and all different slipjoint and traditional patterns that you know and love and probably have in your vast collection. But for one reason or another, you've you've said not right for the business or not right right now due to demand or what you would expect. But things may change in the future. So I ask you, are there patterns, that you consider? Are there, traditional patterns that you, in the past, thought wouldn't work or wouldn't fit into Jack Wolf that your mind is, turning on?

Ben Belkin [00:49:06]:
That's interesting. I was thinking about patterns for the future today, in fact. There's some I think I would like to attempt. I'd like to I feel like there needs to be some kind of equal end in my catalog. So think Swiss army knife, you know, basically same dimensions. Like, if you cut the knife in the middle and mirrored it, it would be the same. I don't know what shape that's gonna take as far as how I would design it or what blade shape, but it's just it's like one of the most classic shapes, and I feel like that's missing. Doing something like an elephant toe or a sunfish, You know, they're cool.

Ben Belkin [00:49:48]:
If I could do it right and make it interesting, I would be opposed. I'm to the point now where I think I need to start looking at some of the more obscure things. I think I need a serpentine serpentine, serpentine pattern of some sort, like a Stockman shaped handle. Not necessarily some 3 blade knife, but that handle shape.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:10]:
Kinda you mean do you mean kinda like the k nine? Like that sort of

Ben Belkin [00:50:14]:
But it curves I think they curve in the other direction. Like, I think like a GC 66 or I've I'm thinking of some custom knives I've seen. Case makes one. And, you know, something with a hawk bill, I've been getting a lot of requests for that and I'm kinda keen on it. Honestly, I think a little fixed blade with a hawk bill would be pretty sweet. Yeah. So I've been I've been brainstorming a little bit. It's hard to find the time to design.

Ben Belkin [00:50:44]:
It's not really my priority right now and I know you wanted to talk about this so we could segue a little bit. My priority right now, the near term future for me, is expanding the locking knife lineup because we've got a pretty robust catalog of slip joint knives and we've only got 2 released locking knives at this point and one fixed blade. And the locking knives are a little easier for me to roll out because you're working off of the slip joint design, And I've already established some of the framework, like, what is my flipper tab like, and what is the bolster lock like, and how do we do the clip, and how do we do the backspacer and how thick are the liners? Like, we've already been through all that. Yeah. And so, that's really been my focus over the last 6 to 9 months and will continue to be my focus. I'm not touching the fixed blade project again until I see how these do. Now, I'm very hopeful that they're popular because I went through a lot of work to establish the form factor, establish the packaging. I didn't do all that just to do one, but I'm also not bullheaded to where if these things are a dud, I'm just gonna fire up another dud.

Ben Belkin [00:52:01]:
You know?

Bob DeMarco [00:52:02]:
Well, the question is, I guess my question as a non entrepreneur, which is what you are, by the way, and, that that really shows in how, you came up with this company and how you've been, guiding it, these couple of years. It's pretty impressive. But, how do you know when you should try again? I mean, if this were a dud, would that mean no more fixed blades ever, or would you say, no. No. No. I I think fixed blades I believe in, but maybe I got it wrong or something?

Ben Belkin [00:52:34]:
Yeah. I think it's hard to answer that until I'm able to collect the data. So, first of all, there's never a crystal clear answer. But let's say, okay, scenario 1, these things sell really well. They you know, most of them sell through at the dealers within the 1st 30 to 60 days. Okay. People like the form factor. We could more or less stick with what we're doing.

Ben Belkin [00:52:58]:
Let's I have a Facebook group. It's where my die hard collectors tell me exactly how they feel, you know? Sometimes with no sugar on top. So if everybody's like, man, we'd love this thing if it's just too small. Well, okay. Cool. Like, hopefully, if I make it bigger, it'll still fit in the box or else we're going back to the drawing board there. But I do have room in that box to, you know, maybe pick up a half an inch on each side. So we could go to a full 7 inches.

Ben Belkin [00:53:24]:
If that's what everybody wants, cool. I'm not, you know, I'm not I'm not that way where it must be this forever. I I wanna my goal is to put knives in pockets. So if that's what it takes, I'm on board.

Bob DeMarco [00:53:37]:
Well, well, that's the perfect collaboration. You're collaborating with your collectors.

Ben Belkin [00:53:41]:
That's it. It's like I I can I can come up with something, but, you know, if I put the dish on the table, you guys aren't gonna want it again if it doesn't taste good? So, give me the feedback, you know? If, like you said, if it's a dud, meaning like man, no one's buying these things, okay, well why? Then I got to figure out why. Was it too expensive? Was it too small? Was it the wrong materials? Was it the wrong steel? Like, what's the problem? You know? Yeah. I don't think that's gonna be the case, but if it is, if you just totally miss the mark, well, you go back to the drawing board and start from scratch. Do you go back to the drawing board and tweak some things? Like, what do you do? Yeah. It's hard to know until you get them out there because one thing I've learned as an entrepreneur is people vote with their wallets. So, you know, everybody will tell you, Oh, we want this, oh, we want this, oh, we want this. You do it and then no one shows up, right? But if you do something that people aren't screaming for but they all went and bought it, now you're onto something.

Ben Belkin [00:54:43]:
You know? Because, like, that's where the rubber meets the road. And and not so much because, oh, I made money. It's like, no. Because that's what people demonstrated they wanted because they exchanged something for it. Like, their opinion is free, but to get this knife, we need to have an exchange.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:02]:
Yeah. What what's the most requested, knife that you've done to get the, folding treatment or the locking treatment?

Ben Belkin [00:55:13]:
Oh, that's an interesting question. I don't know. I we had a poll in the Facebook group. My guy, Donnie, put it up. It's like, which slip joint design would you like to see as a locking knife? And, man, a bunch of them got votes. The 2 that got the most votes were the vampire Jack and the feel good Jack. But it wasn't more like some crazy margin.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:35]:
Interesting.

Ben Belkin [00:55:35]:
And I was really actually quite pleased to see that. I like a pull that's evenly distributed. I almost like 9 designs with nothing and everybody wants this one. Okay. That's great for when I make that one.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:48]:
Right.

Ben Belkin [00:55:49]:
Right. Want any of the other stuff, You know?

Bob DeMarco [00:55:51]:
That's an interesting point. Yeah. Yeah. That just means that there's an even distribution of, of love for your designs. I I would I would humbly suggest the Venom Jack and the Benny's clip. To me, those are man, I'd love to see, both of those roll out in a in a flipper locking model. The the good news is you could kinda do this for as long as you have models, you know, unique models. You could do a little boy's knife, little front flipper, little bro would be great.

Bob DeMarco [00:56:29]:
And by the way, I I I didn't tell you in person, but I love the mini Cyborg. Your model, your own original traditional pattern with the angular handle that is so comfortable. It's like an angular sow bell. It's like a robotic sow bell. It and this very unique blade that is somewhat, Lanny's clippish, somewhat, Turkish clippish, and somewhat Tanto like in a weird way. I I love this knife and I love it in this size. So nicely done on this one too.

Ben Belkin [00:57:05]:
I'm glad. I'm really fond of it myself, you know? I was like, man, this thing came out really good to execute. I think honestly, I think it's some of our best work to date as far as the walk and talk on that thing is arguably perfect. I mean, it is loud, it resonates, it's snappy, it jumps with authority. Like, man, it does not it leaves nothing to be desired. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:30]:
It's crisp at all stations, you know?

Ben Belkin [00:57:33]:
Crazy. Yeah. And our, choices of colors and finishes were all over the map. You know? Like, titanium with hand satin and purple screws. Like, that is a classy, beautiful knife. It is. It's pink kurenite with DLC. We had blasted and tumbled with white marble carbon fiber.

Ben Belkin [00:57:54]:
It looked like it came from the future. You know, we had dark matter orange with belt satin, kinda the OG Jack Wolf configurate. I was just really pleased with that whole, selection.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:07]:
Yeah. Me too. I think it's a total winner and I love the size. I love the size. I like all of these. I like the I I even like how you upsize them for the for the flippers.

Ben Belkin [00:58:19]:
I find them easier to manipulate at that size. And because we're not in the pocket and we're hanging on a pocket clip, you know, part of you was tempted to do like what Chris Reeve does, which was, you know, make a small and you can make a large, then you can get more juice out of the design, but then everybody really wishes you made the medium. You know what I mean?

Bob DeMarco [00:58:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. The indela.

Ben Belkin [00:58:42]:
Yeah. Exactly. It's like, okay. So you got a 4 inch and a 5 inch, but where's the 4 and a half inch handle? You know? So, I was just like, I'm just going for the Goldilocks size with these locking knives, like 3 and a quarter inch blade, 4 inch plus handle and it's like hard to beat. You know, hard to beat.

Bob DeMarco [00:59:01]:
Alright. As we wrap here, Ben, can you give us a clue, just a clue, just a little hint as to what, you have in the offing?

Ben Belkin [00:59:10]:
Well, I kinda gave it away. You're gonna see more of the locking knife line roll out over the next 6 to 12 months. It's not just going to be locking knife, locking knife, locking knife, locking knife. Like, I'm not there yet. Yeah. But we've been working diligently and there's prototyping that has to go on and there's version 1s and version 2s. So it's never as easy as I wish it was, but we're getting there. And, you know, folks, give me your feedback on stuff.

Ben Belkin [00:59:39]:
Let me know which locking gonna buy it, you can give me your 2¢, but I'd rather have your 5¢ for folks gonna buy it, you can give me your 2¢, but I'd rather have your 5¢ for folks who actually bought the thing and carried it and used it. I'm really interested in your feedback because I gotta be honest, this is a literal shot in the dark. You know? This is a shot in the dark. I'm not going off the experience I had with slip joints like when I designed these slip joints. And I'm not a total noob when it comes to fixed blades, but there's a lot of choices out there for fixed blades, high quality fixed blades. So if I'm not getting something right in your opinion, let me know.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:21]:
Well, Ben, I mean, this encapsulates, nothing ventured, nothing gained. And obviously, you've ventured a lot and you've you've gained a lot and so have we, who are enthusiasts for your work. Thanks so much for coming on the Knife Junkie podcast again, and, I look forward to the the day we check-in on some other great new, exciting project because I love your work. I love talking to you, man. Good to have you here.

Ben Belkin [01:00:45]:
Likewise, Bob. Thanks for showing me some of your stuff at Blade Show, by the way. Your stuff's really cool, cool. My pleasure.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:51]:
Have a good one, man. Later.

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Bob DeMarco [01:01:08]:
There he goes, ladies and gentlemen. Ben Belkin. Always great to talk to Ben. I always like to hear hit, things from his business mind, his entrepreneurial, perspective because it's something I wanna cultivate over time. So, but talking about this was refreshing because lots of fixed blades in my mind these days, and this is a different take on fixed blades, and I really like it. Alright. Be sure to join us on Thursday night for Thursday night night, and, also, just be sure to watch for the midweek supplemental. For Jim, working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DeMarco saying until next time, don't take dull for an answer.

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