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Announcer [00:00:06]:
Welcome to The Junkie Podcast. Your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting.

Announcer[00:00:12]:
Here's your host, Bob The Knife Junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco
Welcome back to the Knife Junkie podcast. I'm Bob DeMarco. On this edition of the show, I'm speaking again with Rolando Garcia III and continuing our conversation about his study of the bladed martial arts, bowie knives, navajas and all things knives and knife fighting. You know him as Rolando Escutada on YouTube and Instagram where he shows off his collection and skills and features deep diving episodes on the origins, designs and combative methodologies of the world's edged weapons. We'll catch up with Rolando for some more fascinating knife talk, but first, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, hit the notification bell and download the show to your favorite podcast app. Also, if you want to help support the show, you can share it. That goes a great distance.

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Bob DeMarco [00:01:59]:
Rolando, welcome back to the show. It's a pleasure seeing you again, sir.

Rolando Estocada [00:02:02]:
It's always a pleasure to see you, my brother.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:06]:
Wait, before we get into the conversation, I. I want to say at Blade show, you had your cat. You were walking around with you.

Rolando Estocada [00:02:12]:
Yes.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:13]:
And. And he looks. He or she. She looks so much like my gray cat that I, I was going to try and wrangler her and show her off. You. But you know, wrangling cats is not always the easiest thing.

Rolando Estocada [00:02:25]:
No, it's a very tough job.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:28]:
So just to remind people if, if it's been a while since they've seen the last episode we spoke, describe to people what the Escotada methodology is.

Rolando Estocada [00:02:38]:
Yeah, so the, the system was something that I was, that I had ended up Codifying and still very much in its evolution. And when my two instructors, my first one is my father and from whom I received a good portion of my martial arts training, a lot of it is in the Filipino martial arts. But he did expose me to judo, Ne Waza and Sam Wing Chun. He was also a judo brown belt in the Philippines. But a good portion of my own training comes from his Filipino martial arts, specifically the these Felicissimo Dizon Filipino martial arts. And he's like one of those great instructors that not a lot of people know about. He's often mentioned in the same breath as a grandmaster, Angel Cabala's who was, who basically taught him, right. And also Kalis Illustrisimo founder Antonio Tatang Illustrisimo, the Great swordsman.

Rolando Estocada [00:03:30]:
So I got the Felicissimo d' Zone curriculum from him. Then I got my jeet Kune do and Filipino martial arts, Brazilian jiu jitsu, savate buoy, knife instruction, naba, all of these great things from my great instructor, senior full instructor, Armando Basulto, who at one point was the east coast regional director for Paul Vunak. So yeah, he's a, he's a Vunak guy. So from him, you know, I got a lot of that. But there's a third piece to my estacada system, which is the health and fitness piece, because you know, I basically came up in, in the professional world in health and fitness, starting as a trainer, but ultimately in executive leadership in some of the top brands in the world. So the estacado system is really emerging of both the combative benefits elements of martial arts, but also the health and lifestyle optimization. I feature mostly the combative and martial aspects to it on YouTube because there's a lot of great interest there. But there is, as Greg Cook, who's the founder of Functional Movement Screen, once said, there's a reason why a lot of ancient Chinese masters focus so much on their weapons training, especially into their older age, because weapons training is a type of anti aging.

Rolando Estocada [00:04:51]:
And as a middle aged man, this is very important to me.

Bob DeMarco [00:04:54]:
Yeah, hear, hear. I like the way you describe it. You definitely got a really solid foundation from your father early on and then you went off and explored the world literally and figuratively with martial arts from.

Rolando Estocada [00:05:08]:
All around the world.

Bob DeMarco [00:05:09]:
And that's one of the reasons, besides your charming personality and your warm presence, that's one of the reasons I love talking with you because you have a lot of knowledge behind the fighting methods, behind bowie knives, navajas, these weapons have been fascinated with My whole life.

Rolando Estocada [00:05:27]:
Thank you. Thank you for the kind words, my friend. I always enjoy talking to you.

Bob DeMarco [00:05:31]:
Absolutely. So recently, I know this just from following you on Instagram and YouTube. You had. You went on a pretty amazing Illustrio Kali venture. Tell me about that.

Rolando Estocada [00:05:44]:
Yes. So I've always felt there was something always just super functional and super direct about the Illustrisimo system. I was in. In. I was exposed to it initially by my instructor, Armando Basulto, but the some of the primary concepts and some of the primary techniques, then some of it later on with somebody who had studied with one of the main instructors of Illustrisimo, Mangromi Macapagal. And I studied it a little bit with Roy Harris, the Jiu Jitsu black belt. But he is actually first and foremost a bladesman. That's how he sees himself.

Rolando Estocada [00:06:19]:
Jeet Kundo Man. You know, he was actually the vice president for Progressive Fighting Systems under Paul Vunak. So that's how I got connected. It was through Armando, then Roy. But my first, excuse me, real training in Illustrisimo was under Burton Richardson. I did maybe about two, maybe even maybe three. I don't remember anymore. But it was 15 years ago.

Rolando Estocada [00:06:43]:
And he really opened my eyes into not just the intricacy of the system, but just the directness of it. And he was the one who brought home that this isn't just a Filipino martial arts, this is a bladed art. And it took me a while to really absorb that. And I'd been following Guru Arnold Narzo for the past 10 years on his YouTube channel. He is one of my favorite instructors in practically anything, is a very, very thorough individual and really knows how to display it. And I've messaged him over the years, you know, just briefly here and there. Hey, I'm in New York, you know, are you ever going to come, ever? Please. And if you do, and I believe this is his first New York stop.

Rolando Estocada [00:07:24]:
And I was so impressed not only with Guru Arnold Narzo, but also the other Illustrisimal guru, Guru Vico Perrine, who you and I briefly, briefly ran into when we were standing at the MAR booth. He was there.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:41]:
Familiar. Yeah.

Rolando Estocada [00:07:42]:
And I was like, whoa, whoa, I gotta talk to him. But he was like, he was in and out, you know, and people were talking to him, but he assisted. And I was so impressed by it. In that one. The content was just so well organized. There was a sense of progression and regression. So they provided a wonderful learning experience. And this is something that's very rare in martial Arts in terms of workshops, because sometimes it can be a little disorganized.

Rolando Estocada [00:08:08]:
It's more of an introduction to the system rather than, here are the fundamental skill sets that you need in order to then progress you into the intermediate in advance. And I got a little. I would say it was three hours, but I got this wonderful broad picture of it. And it was in addition to some of the knowledge that I'd received from Armando Roy Harris and also Burton Richardson.

Bob DeMarco [00:08:33]:
Yeah, I remember Burt Richardson. His. His Modern Martial Arts regular column, Bert Offerings.

Rolando Estocada [00:08:41]:
Yes.

Bob DeMarco [00:08:42]:
And then his videos on the beach. Man, I was like, this guy's living the life.

Rolando Estocada [00:08:46]:
How.

Bob DeMarco [00:08:47]:
How would you define Illustrisimo, you know, to someone who might have a. A glancing knowledge of Filipino martial arts?

Rolando Estocada [00:08:54]:
Yes. I would say that, number one, it is a Filipino martial arts. It is strictly Filipino martial art. Number two, unlike most Filipino martial arts, it is unapologetically a bladed martial art. So the first thing they introduce you to is a Filipino blade. And I'm going to. Since I have it handy here, I'm going to use as a very good example. This guy has seen so much video in the past few months.

Rolando Estocada [00:09:24]:
This wonderful Adam Boyce designed tops ginunting the X16. And one thing that I did point out in some of my. Probably my first. I think it was my first episode on my YouTube channel, and it was wonderfully illustrated by Guru Arnold in the workshop, is that a bladed system, like the Illustrisimo system, is differentiated from other Filipino martial arts because of the handle ergonomics of the sword. I'm gonna quote paraphrase Guru Arnold here in that, and I made similar observations, but I'm gonna take it primarily from the workshop. He talked about how the stick has a circular handle. Right. And when you have a circular handle, the wrist can have a lot of play.

Rolando Estocada [00:10:16]:
So you can do strikes like the Redondo, where it circles like this. So you can hit with the back of the blade, and you can even hit with the side of the blade. But it's because it's a rounded stick, for as long as it has some sort of impact, it's okay. But if you're taking a look at a blade, there's a greater consideration for its makeup and design, because there are parts of it that are really sharp, parts of it that are not, parts of it that are a little stronger because it's a little wider and maybe even a little thicker, and parts of it that's going to be a little thinner. So you're not just going to block and not think about where it's going to land because your sword can break. But the third part of it that I love that he highlighted because of that edge alignment is so critical in Illustrisimo that their entire posture and where the hand aligns through the shoulder is out of respect for the fact that the edge of the sword is pointing in a very specific way. And as a result of it, I'm of the mind that their postures and biomechanics and their motor control is negotiating around that specific piece of the sword. This is not something that you see with stick based martial arts.

Rolando Estocada [00:11:37]:
And as a result of it, when you look at an Illustrisimo person, they move always with the edge forward versus a stick oriented person may take a sword like this and they start doing more stick based like Redondo Witttix, they start to twirl. And Guru Arnold actually addressed this. He said, you know who a stick based Filipino martial artist is? You give him a sword, they start twirling it. And I was like, yeah, that's true. That's actually true because that's the first thing you see. So because those are the. To me, you know, to me those are the main features of it. They have a lot of emphasis with the espada idaga, also with the, with the knife as well.

Rolando Estocada [00:12:19]:
This is a very wonderful example of what a good daga is. This is a Calvin Richardson designed. Work, work, tough, steadfast. L the large. This, you know, if you have something like this, it's beautiful. Compare, you know, and you have it with an X16. This is a beautiful combo. This one I'm going to do a review of very soon.

Rolando Estocada [00:12:39]:
But Illustrisimo, they have a wonderful template. I'm going to say template, not style, but they have wonderful templates. So that whether you're beginner, intermediate or advanced, there's a way for you to progress or regress your skill set, depending on your level of comfort and your level of proficiency. I love this system very much. It is also very different from the Kabbalah's system, but also very different from the DSON system. Very different principles, but just something I really adore and I really enjoy learning and I hope to continue to train in some in this system for the rest of my life.

Bob DeMarco [00:13:19]:
So something that always was on top of mind for me when doing stick. More stick work in, in the Kali I did, which is illustrationo or I should say Guru Dan Inosanto Lacoste.

Rolando Estocada [00:13:39]:
Yeah, Innocento La Cost. Yes.

Bob DeMarco [00:13:41]:
Was, was whenever I was doing something stick I was conscious trying to remain conscious of where that edge would be because for me, the stick was always a proxy for the blade. Yeah, I always have blades on the mind and, and, and it always did kind of occur to me. I guess you could do a wit tick, for instance, but you'd be slapping someone with the side of the blade. And is that efficient? Is that worth your energy when you're, when you're fighting someone with a sword? Probably not. Unless you play out class.

Rolando Estocada [00:14:08]:
Yeah, probably not.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:09]:
So you, you mentioned a template versus a style.

Rolando Estocada [00:14:13]:
Yeah. So it's, it's. I love the question because I think that there, most styles are really a collection of techniques, right. You know, this is, there's offense and then there's defense. This is the basic offense, this is the basic defense. Then we show you intermediate, then it show you a little bit more advanced. So a system really tends to be a collection of, of knowledge or a collection of techniques. And the reason why Bruce Lee was very anti style is that what tends to happen with a system being a collection of techniques is that there's, there's a lot of lost context in it, meaning it's combative application.

Rolando Estocada [00:14:54]:
And if there is a combative application, it's usually against someone of a similar style. Right. You're really only fighting like judo, which I love. Really, they only tend to train against other judo people. Right, right. And there's this throw and then there's that throw, and then before you know it, once. The problem with the system is that people who are in a system, they have preferences. Well, I like this technique and I like chaining this technique with that technique.

Rolando Estocada [00:15:22]:
And I'm going to reference Brazilian Jiu jitsu. You're if before you know it, I'm gonna build a game around my triangle, which becomes an omoplata, which becomes a back tape. Right. Or you'll have guys who are like, okay, you know, I'm going to be a little more, you know, I'm going to fake the pulling guard, then take the ankle and then get on top. Right. But then it becomes a matter of you just taking your favorite techniques and then you say, well, I don't care for the rest of it. The rest of it is garbage. So now you have people out there with black belts and instructorships who are passing on incomplete knowledge.

Rolando Estocada [00:15:58]:
So it's not a knowledge transmission. A template is when all of these techniques are contextualized. So a good example of this, and this is what I loved about the how it was taught in Illustrisimo. It Reminded me of Shinkage. Shinkage Two man set. And whenever you're doing a two man set in Shinkargiryu, when I was training in it, I thought my brain was exploding every time I went to class because I would draw be stopped. And sensei or one of my senpai would say, this little detail here, move your hand here. And I'd say, why? Why is my hand there? Let me demonstrate.

Rolando Estocada [00:16:35]:
Before you know it, there's a difference between getting the sword slapped out of my hand versus me getting thrown, right? So when you have a template, you have context. And then once you have that context, sensei or senpai can walk in and kind of go, let me show you this. Let me show you this, man. And then before. So now there's a context so that the variations can be inserted, Right? Versus Technique one, Technique two, Technique three, and then repeat. Illustrisimo was like this. I loved how they progress. This is Retirada.

Rolando Estocada [00:17:08]:
This is the footwork. This is the Redonda. Now we're gonna put these together. And this is how the guy is going to attack. And then this is how the guy's going to attack. Now I'm going to do it this way. And before you knew it, they were progressing you through not just the combative application, but the knowledge itself. You were experiencing the knowledge.

Rolando Estocada [00:17:27]:
It was so well executed because it wasn't just pattern recognition. It wasn't like just memorizing a multiplication table. It's them actually putting me through a learning experience or like an lms, like a learning management system. It. And they answered all of our questions. I mean, I'm going to have this. I'm going to put this little asterisk. Since they're Filipino and I'm Filipino, I'd say 70% of the attendees were Filipino.

Rolando Estocada [00:17:54]:
So every now and then I'll say something in Tagaloga, sir, which means, what does the technique planchada mean? And then everybody, all the other Filipinos will go, you know, oh, he speaks Tagalog. And Filipinos are we. When we hear our mother tongue, it's like music to us. So we all kind of. Oh, we drop everything when we hear it. And it was kind of like that. And they would answer like, they would have these beautiful smiles and it would just go, oh, panchata, this is what it means. And we'd all kind of go, oh, yeah, I get it now.

Rolando Estocada [00:18:25]:
So it was very enjoyable. I highly recommend it. I can't wait for them to do this U.S. circuit again.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:31]:
Okay, we're Going to talk about the knives. You. You teased a few of them. But before we get to that, I know that you've been really looking deeply and this is something I was mentioning up front. You don't just show off knives.

Rolando Estocada [00:18:44]:
You.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:44]:
You really make studies of them and you. You create actual episodes, not just short videos. And I really appreciate that you've been really investigating or going down the tomahawk rabbit hole lately. How, how similar are the thought processes between fighting with a knife, for instance, or a short sword, and fighting with a tomahawk.

Rolando Estocada [00:19:13]:
So the first thing to consider with the tomahawk, it's basically a Filipino martial arts. Stick with. And this is. I'm going to show you the. The RMJ Shrike. Right. I love that. Yeah, this, this is so beautifully done.

Rolando Estocada [00:19:28]:
It is so light and. But it's like a stick. Like you're holding a stick. There's some narrowing to it. And it was intentionally done because they want it so that if you're fighting this way, you're doing your angles and, I don't know, you're surrounded by enemy combatants and you're just fighting off everybody. Even if it spins in your hand, you won't feel a difference between hitting with the spike versus hitting with the tomahawk and also with the beard. So it's so wonderfully done by Rian Johnson. This is a wonderful gift, but it handles a lot like a stick.

Rolando Estocada [00:20:04]:
But, and I mentioned this in one of my episodes, the fundamental advantage of a tomahawk like the rmj. Right. And also the other one that is truly top tier, you're looking at the Winkler R and D designed by mastersmith Daniel Winkler and also Tuhan Rafael Kayanan of. Of Psyop Tactical Group, is that. You see how this one is multi sectioned.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:32]:
Yeah.

Rolando Estocada [00:20:33]:
Right. Versus this one, which is straight. The fundamental advantage of a tomahawk versus, let's say, let me take out one of my wonderful knives here. Okay. And this was cool because this is the Jeff Schaefer Schaefer chopper buoy. It's really hard to say Schaefer chopper I end up butchering like Shaper Chaffer, you know? Well, and his episode is on today. His Forged in Fire episode. Oh, yeah.

Rolando Estocada [00:21:05]:
It's tonight. Yeah. So I'm, I'm. He's such a cool guy. And he's the knife maker for Master at Arms, James Keating. Oh, yes. So I'm. I'm really dealing with a heavyweight here.

Rolando Estocada [00:21:18]:
Right. So you have this wonderful buoy, and when I spoke to him about it, I Said, hey, this is wonderful, but it handles a little bit like a Barong. He goes, yeah, I've always kind of wanted to build a Barong, but I don't think that was his intention. But I think a little bit of the Barong came out of this. But if you compare it to a tomahawk, you see how much bigger this chopper is. Look at that. Yeah, that is so intimidating. But the fundamental difference is this has a multi section graph grip.

Rolando Estocada [00:21:50]:
So I can go from long, middle, and then short range. I cannot do that with a buoy knife because the handle is fixed. So once I handle a knife, this is it. I'm stuck here. Unless I'm super ambidextrous under pressure in high threshold environment, I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not gonna bet on it If I need to let go and I need to multi section. Why is multisectioning important? Because a fight is dynamic. It's very fluid. Before you know it, it's one people, one person, two person, three person.

Rolando Estocada [00:22:30]:
And sometimes, and we know this in the Philippines, we have a term called agawan. They fight for it, right? And what tends to happen is that now you have to kind of hand it off. And Felicisi Mudizan's system of Muhara is about, if one, if I get injured on this hand, yeah, I gotta hand it off, but I gotta hand it off in a way where if I grab anywhere, I'm not gonna end up mistakenly doing something stupid like this, right? So the fundamental advantage of the tomahawk is where I land. If I have to do this, I can hand it off, but it also changes the range. The thing I particularly love, and I think it was intentional on the part of To Han Raf Kayanan, is that this curve right here lands exactly right where my hand is. And this part of it, the spike, does not bite into my flesh. So what I've started to do, which is to integrate it with the Muhara curriculum of Kabila and Tagalog. Kabila and means to switch.

Rolando Estocada [00:23:35]:
Sometimes you get into this kind of fight, but then you hand it off here. And now it's a bit of a karandit. It's like a karambic. Yeah. So you're here, fight, fight. You're getting into a fight. I love this part of it because this rounds off and it fits right under the mandible. Why is that important? Because since it's rounded, if I try to come off of it, because I'm applying forward pressure, it, if I keep following him, by rounding it, it's hard to come off.

Rolando Estocada [00:24:04]:
I've tried it on several people and I've had them do it to me. All they have to do is this, this and this. It's hard once that forward pressure is applied. This is different with a straight tomahawk because there's a way to just come off of it because the angle is incorrect. But if I apply forward pressure. Angle, angle, getting close. Forward pressure. Or I can come down here.

Rolando Estocada [00:24:25]:
Forward pressure, right. But if I go one, two, I'm going in. And then forward pressure, switch it off to here. I go low, right? I go low down here while I control with half plumb up here. Now I can secure. Now I have the person and. But this was designed for a. The military personnel.

Rolando Estocada [00:24:45]:
So it's not like I have to hold the person in the street because I'm carrying a Winkler R and D on me. But it just so happens that if you had to go, go, go, go, go. Switch to your sidearm. Go, go, go. You. You just fell into that situation. Go, go, go, bathroom, sidearm to it. Now you're in this position.

Rolando Estocada [00:25:01]:
Now you can use this to strip. This isn't like some sort of official curriculum. If it is, I didn't receive it that way. This is just me integrating what I know of the Felicisi Modiza Mohara template and applying it to a tomahawk. That's why I love the tomahawk. I've been exposed to other systems as well. There is a lot of hand switching, but the R and D is a very, very good way of integrating it. And the other one I want to show you because I'm really getting into it.

Rolando Estocada [00:25:33]:
Andreas Tius, he created this one, is a prototype. I. My most recent episode is of this one. Yeah, this is a TRC Viking axe. Yeah, I know this it. But what's crazy is that normally Viking axes, this is mentioned in De Cuerdas a little bit where there's like a clock system. So you have noon, you know, nine o', clock, three o'. Clock.

Rolando Estocada [00:25:59]:
But this was also highlighted in the Illustrisimo system when Guru Arnold taught it, like, you know, noon, 11, 10, all the way down to here. In. In the Illustrisimo system, they have a type of strike called al dabis. And aldabis is when the sword goes past that horizontal. And now it's down here like seven o', clock, eight o'. Clock. And now you're coming on the groin, the femoral, the knee, it's like all the way inside, right? And what tends to happen with heavier swords like the one I was just using that plays into the Illustrisimo system. This beautiful Viking tomahawk because of that extra beard does not have that meaning.

Rolando Estocada [00:26:44]:
Typically a Viking axe is a little heavier. So when I do this it's gonna keep falling towards a seven o', clock, eight o' clock angle. Andreas did something. It's not completely full tang but he did it so that if I go here it stops neutral right parallel to the horizon. And this is an important detail because now I can use some of the Barong template because the Barong template tends to come in here and then I fulcrum across or I come in here and I fulcrum across. The thing I. The thing I love about this is that he made that. It's the balance of it in such a way where even if I hold it here there's a substantial different distance between the spike and my flesh.

Rolando Estocada [00:27:33]:
So I'm never worried about this. Like me poking myself accidentally because he balanced it so well. Uh so this. So having this Viking axe, slightly curved handle RMJ shrike with a very straight handle and then when you have the fantastically multi segmented but angled R and D wrinkler to me is that spectrum of the type of Tomahawk methodologies that are available to us. And that's where my studies are taking me right now as it relates to the tomahawk.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:08]:
And do you have a preference?

Rolando Estocada [00:28:11]:
I don't yet. I. I'm. And it's because. It's because I. I've studied Musashi for so long and his main admonition is never have a favorite weapon. Never. Never.

Rolando Estocada [00:28:25]:
And it's. And his. His logic and it's so practical is that you can be jumped at any time and if you're jump and your mind goes to your favorite. But you left your favorite at the house or in the car or you loaned it to your best friend. But. But you're not so favorite. But very handy. You know.

Rolando Estocada [00:28:45]:
Brand new tomahawk from Andreas Tritius is there you're going to hesitate and when you hesitate that's when they get to jump on you. I. I read that somewhere recently. I think it was a. It was detours. The silat master, he said that the idea of silat is never let the other guy build his momentum because when he attacks there's going to be a second and a third. And if you're still looking for your favorite he might be on the fifth attack. Right? Yes.

Rolando Estocada [00:29:12]:
But. Yeah. So you don't want that so be, always be ready with what happens to be around you.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:18]:
Yeah. And don't regret not bringing the huge navaja. You might just.

Rolando Estocada [00:29:22]:
I know, I know. And I happen to have the navaja here. And yeah, it's the more modern one. So this one is the Espada Espada xl, which is a very great approximation of the traditional Nevaja in terms of its size. But a big part of my study around this is again, handle ergonomics. It's, I believe, one of the few, if not the only knife designed where a big part of it is this wonderful tail. And this tail here, you know, I've, I've explored it and there's a lot of it that has to do with, okay, you know, you can two handed. Okay, that's fine.

Rolando Estocada [00:30:00]:
If you need that extra reach, that's fine. Being able to swing across, that's fine. But a big part of my exploration now is, well, I only recently remembered because I, I, I used to run a, a big school, Jeet Kune Do School, and I didn't realize so many of my students were like in Special Forces. So every now and then I'll get a message and we got to talking about, well, what are you carrying? And we got to talking about, well, what, what's favored, what's not. We talk a little bit about the sock tea, what's available to them. And I am working a little bit with Dirk Pinkerton around the culprit, right, because you introduced me to him, right. And the culprit really stood out because if you take a look at the handle here, right, you see that, that little thing going on here, this little bend that comes from the navaha, right? You have this. Why is that important? It's important because there's something about, when you draw, there's something about this little portion that kind of helps, that helps with that draw.

Rolando Estocada [00:31:11]:
And I'm kind of exploring that right now. It seems to be a thing that's, that designers are working with like the Civivi Modern Hunter. I saw Melissa Backwoods feature it recently on her Instagram and I was like, hey, look at that, look at the tail, what's going on there? Right? For the eight series. Yeah, yeah. So you take a look at that, right? That same thing, that kind of hook. So I'm exploring what that design means in terms of the draw, in terms of the retention. But there's something else going on with the Navaja in terms of just how this is a bit of a curve, there's a Bit of a curve downwards. Right.

Rolando Estocada [00:31:53]:
And if I'm not mistaken, I think the bond talk, it used to be called the bond talk. I think Raf Kayanan designed it originally for Dan Winkler, where that curve comes down. And that's critical because not only does it allow for a better draw, it's better alignment with the bones for the thrust. So I'm doing a lot of exploration and a lot of conversation with Dirk Pinkerton in terms of, well, if we were to do something, what would that look like? But I think it's going to come down to something like the navaja structure. It's going to be some, you know, we're, we're going to be working off of the culprit, but also what the navaja structure is. But at any rate, the point of all this is. Yes, you know, I'm very deep into studying nowadays. Tomahawk bowie knife, Navaja illustrisimo.

Rolando Estocada [00:32:44]:
As you can see, the.

Bob DeMarco [00:32:47]:
Well, it warms the cockles in my heart that you're working with Dirk Pinkerton, who's. I mean, to me he's, he's an incredible maker and designer. But the two of you together sounds like a match made in heaven. Something I love about the navaja is this. I have an old one right here.

Rolando Estocada [00:33:02]:
Oh, is, is. Which one is that one? Is that a joker or.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:06]:
No, no, this is something my brother got me. It's Albania.

Rolando Estocada [00:33:12]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:14]:
But I like, not so much on this because it's so large, but on the large size espada. I like that you can put your. You have this sort of sub hill thing and it goes into your palm in such a way that on a thrust connects with your arm.

Rolando Estocada [00:33:31]:
Yes.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:32]:
How else to put it? But you can really back up a thrust with the structure of your forearm.

Rolando Estocada [00:33:38]:
Yeah, yeah, it's. It's a. There's a lot going on with the navaja and it's, it's a very unique knife methodology.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:47]:
Yeah. Last time you're on, you explained a little bit of the cloak and dagger aspect.

Rolando Estocada [00:33:51]:
Yeah, yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:54]:
You think that that translates to modern day?

Rolando Estocada [00:33:57]:
It's. It really does and it's some. It's one of the definitive features of the Estacada system in that there's a very great study in what I call lead shoulder dynamics. Because if, let's say, which knife am I going to work with here? You know what, let's. Let's work with this one. This, the one that we've been talking about quite a bit. We're looking at the Bobby Rains firechild. And he calls it the Fire Child because it's an homage to the Hell's Bell.

Rolando Estocada [00:34:29]:
And you have really. What defines weaponry as it relates to position, right? Position and posture. In my system, we have an acronym called dapat, D A, P, P, A, T. And DAPAT in Tagalog means must. So these are the six musts. So there's a distance, angle, posture, position, attribute, and timing. So when we're talking about your position and your posture, we're. We're talking about several things, but one of the key features is lead shoulder dynamics, meaning you only have really three of them.

Rolando Estocada [00:35:06]:
You have the weapon forward, you have the weapon square, the shoulder squared, or the weapon in the back. And now whatever happens to be in this hand, you know, now you're looking at very, very different dynamics. Right. So when we're talking about, you know, how cloak and dagger comes into play, what you. We're really talking about is, well, which shoulder is doing the leading, Right? Why is cloak and dagger something still so prevalent? You know, I think you might have heard this. It's. I. And if I'm not mistaken, it could be from the jailhouse.

Rolando Estocada [00:35:48]:
The. I forgot the piper, or not piper, like Whiz. Is it 52 blocks? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that one. I. I forgot how many blocks there are, but I think it's 52. I think I could be wrong, but they have something called sewing machine. And sewing machine is the weapon is in the back, this is in the front, and this goes up and down and up and down. And that's with what's called rear shoulder dynamics, meaning the weapon is in the bag.

Rolando Estocada [00:36:22]:
This stood out to me. I was. It is 52 blocks. And what stood out to me was when Guru Arnold was talking about this in the workshop, not the 52 blocks itself, he said, you know, in the Philippines, he said, if they're gonna kill you with a sword, they're not going to come at you like. It's like it's a Filipino stick with it forward. When he demonstrated it, the sword was in the back like this. And it's just marching towards you like this, right? Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:51]:
So.

Rolando Estocada [00:36:52]:
So. So the concept of cloak and dagger is really about the weapon is in the back. And what that does is that the lead shoulder actually either draws an attack, right? Draws them in so that they're out of position, or pulls them into a different kind of range. There's a. It's also part of one of the forms in the shin kagery. I believe it's the. I think it's the Ito Ryodan two man set, where the sword is here, and then they lead with the shoulder when it's really like, hey, come here and come get me. And then, wow, they do something fantastic with the sword.

Rolando Estocada [00:37:28]:
So the cloak and dagger concept is less about the cloak, but how the weapon hand is in the back. And now you have this whole other template to work with.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:39]:
So the. Essentially, the cloak is a. Is a shield or a way to protect the arm, but it's also a way to hide the knife.

Rolando Estocada [00:37:46]:
Yeah, it. To hide in the one that every now and then I play with. I think I saw Bobby do this a couple of times where you do a back cut, snap cut, back cut, snap, cut. And then you do. This is in salvat. This is called decalage, where you turn your body, like, completely 90 degrees to the guy. So back cut, back cut. See the right shoulder here? Back cut, thrust, snap, cut, whichever.

Rolando Estocada [00:38:11]:
But then there's a movement I do sometimes, you know, in sparring, where I do a decalage, which is from savat. Now my shoulder's leading this way, and the bowie knife is tucked over here. Now you're not sure is it gonna thrust up, is it gonna reverso, or is it gonna back cut? Or worse yet, as I hear now, I switch it off to the left. Yeah. These are explorations. These are explorations. And these are things I've seen inspiring. And I'll share the story with you.

Rolando Estocada [00:38:41]:
I believe the term for it in the Navaja is called the. The pasara Soto. Passata. Soto is when fighting. Fighting, not only do you switch hands, you change levels. So you pretend to trip. You're like, oh, I'm gonna trip. And then you go.

Rolando Estocada [00:38:55]:
You stab him this way. And I'm not gonna say which tournament this was, but this Navajo methodology worked so well that every guy that we threw into the knife tournament, they altered first place, really. But it was. It was specific. I remember it was specific. It was on the vaja. It was. Nobody held it, like, in.

Rolando Estocada [00:39:20]:
Nobody did ice pick. You know, it was like we would do some of the Reve, some of the Passata Soto, but I didn't train that team. That was my instructor who trained that team. But it was. It was specific. It was. And there were pictures like, ah, they're like this, right? It was. It was really cool.

Rolando Estocada [00:39:36]:
But that goes to show that this idea of lead shoulder dynamics, when you're thinking weapons, it's not all always with the weapon in front of you. Sometimes that lead shoulder will square up. This is a little more Filipino martial arts. I'm actually doing an Illustrisimo posture here. This is a Mohara posture. The slight variation here, this is where the hands are equal to each other for a closed position and the edges in front. The Mohara system, Dizon system. This goes to the back, it's a little lower and the hand is lower.

Rolando Estocada [00:40:11]:
So now it's a bait. Because now you don't know if as you come in, right shoulder, I cut across, or as you come in, I cut across, but then I switch to the left. Right. It's, it's a very, very different, unique system, but it's always a play on. Am I weapon forward shoulder, Weapon shoulder forward, square shouldered. So I can do some empty hand, some checking hand, live hand, or is it the weapon in the back? And I've found that this tends, this position tends to be, at least to my knowledge, very prevalent in the Navaja, But I have recently seen it in Shinkargariu, but also recently at the Illustrisimo.

Bob DeMarco [00:40:52]:
Workshop and the prison fighting.

Rolando Estocada [00:40:55]:
So, yeah, 52 blocks. Yes.

Bob DeMarco [00:40:57]:
So it's 52 blocks. So it's kind of a deceptive way of going about it because it's, pardon me, harder to detect what's happening back here than appear forward.

Rolando Estocada [00:41:09]:
It is. And it's a, it's, it's a, it's such a unique study because now you, your biomechanics, it, it gets confused like, well, what's my footwork now? And which hand do I go with for a moment? When I do it for a moment, my brain just kind of says reset. Right. It's like for a second, like you're watching tv and then the TV kind of goes off for a second. Yeah. And he kind of wake up. Oh, I'm, I'm here now. Right.

Rolando Estocada [00:41:35]:
It's. The brain doesn't necessarily process it as easily. Right. To go from here, doing my thing and then boom, to go from here. It's. Now you're like in a completely different template. Not style, but you're in a different template.

Bob DeMarco [00:41:51]:
All right, so you had out the fire, you showed us the Shaffer chopper. I want. And you also have one called the Osprey, I think, which. Oh, yeah, I want to see that in a second. But just take us through the design of this fire child. And is this a collaboration with you and Bobby Rains?

Rolando Estocada [00:42:05]:
No, this is out of his brain. As much as I'd love to say, yeah, I collaborated on that. Sure. I gave him my two Cents. Now, he, he debuted this at the Blade show. And it, he, he pretty much showed me how he thought. And I'm glad because he'd been watching my videos, you know, being a big fan of Bagwell's, and he came to Blade show, and he was like, hey, I want you to see this. This.

Rolando Estocada [00:42:32]:
It's the Fire Child. I was like, whoa. You know, And I posted it on my social media. My face. Wow. But he kind of pulled me aside. There's something else going on here. I said, well, what's going on? And it's the handle and what he had done.

Rolando Estocada [00:42:47]:
If you take a look at it, one, the handle curves a certain way. So now that curve fills my hand. So this is a man who is very much not just into the edge design, which is so beautiful that you have this slight convexing here, V taper here, but the thing that gets me. And look at that Spanish notch. Look how beautifully he aligned this here so that if a knife happens to get caught, that's it. It gets wrenched, right? Yeah. But what he did, and this is where his ingenuity is, and that's why I, I, I just enjoy his work so much, is that this handling here, he did something special. Notice that there's like two, two butts to this handle.

Rolando Estocada [00:43:34]:
There's the front, and then there's a back. What this does, it's so subtle. This one back here lands on this part of my hand. So when I do my thrust, it's supported right, right about here. When I snap cut and I snap cut forward, it slides up on my hand, and then it comes back, but it stops on the fleshy part. So he designed that way. The front part is the real kicker. He showed this to me at Blade Show.

Rolando Estocada [00:44:03]:
He said, when you do a back cut, go to what we call the back cut shelf because it's wide, and then it narrows. So when I'm about to back up, my hand slides up here. That means that instead of gripping from my pinky, it now goes to my index finger and thumb, and that's the bicep line, the pulling. So now when I back cut, I go from extension. When I'm here, now I'm pulling, which is the exact mechanism for back cut. But then he said, let go of your pinky. And you see that front butt over here? Now pull off this. It goes straight into a snap, just with a pull of a pinky.

Rolando Estocada [00:44:42]:
So it's like, boom. You eat it. And the. When he sent this to me, the first five minutes, after five minutes of Flowing with it. I had to put it down because my motor control, my nervous system was just enjoying that dynamic in the hands so much. It was moving, in my opinion, too fast. It was moving too fast. My.

Rolando Estocada [00:45:04]:
The. I. I messaged him and I said, you know, the legs on, the hair on my legs and my. My neck, they're all standing because I didn't expect, one, that level of speed, but also, number two, that level of ergonomic support. So if I need to back cut, it just goes. It just naturally falls here, and it fires the bicep line. Wham. Like this.

Rolando Estocada [00:45:26]:
So it's a pulling mechanism, but when I'm about to snap cut, it lands on the mechanoreceptors. Boom. And now it fires the tricep line. And that bicep. Tricep dynamic made my nervous system so happy. It's like, dude, like, what. What is this? This is most, like, extra customized for you. I had to put it down.

Rolando Estocada [00:45:47]:
I had to put it down. I thought this is. And I messaged him. I'm not. My body's covered in goose pimples because I'm not used to. To this kind of detail.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:00]:
So do you think. I don't know if you can answer this, but do you think that if he were to make, you know, multiples of that, which hopefully he is. That hopefully this is a new model. Is it reliant on the deer horn or the deer antler? Or would he be making this also out of wood, but making the shape of the head? Because it seems like a stroke of luck or. Not that it was luck, but he saw the right piece of antler, and it's like, oh, this is perfect for this use. Is this something that he would replicate.

Rolando Estocada [00:46:29]:
In wood or whatever? We're talking about replicating it because this is technically the second one he made. Oh, okay. This is the second firechild. And because the first time he let me handle the one he made, the first prototype, I couldn't get out of my head after the blade show, I was messaging. He's like, dude, I can't get this thing out of my head because of how. Because of how intelligently it allowed me to access the Bagwell Keating back cut template. Again, there's that word template, right? It allowed me to. To do it so easily and with such proficiency.

Rolando Estocada [00:47:06]:
I would like to. I know he can scale it. I don't know if it's something that he plans do, uh, in wood.

Bob DeMarco [00:47:17]:
So. Okay, this is a. This is gonna sound strange, but it. It's a question that Just popped into my head. If you had to duel heaven to the. You had to duel with a knife.

Rolando Estocada [00:47:27]:
What would it be with all day?

Bob DeMarco [00:47:30]:
That one.

Rolando Estocada [00:47:30]:
All day. And I. I know because I paid for it heavily back in the days when I was just an upand coming jeet kundo practitioner. And we sparred. There was a lot of sparring, sparring with the nabaja, sparring. The buoy wins hands down. And I'll tell you why. Because Bill Bagwell said it to me very well.

Rolando Estocada [00:47:50]:
He said, look, I am. This was when he was coaching me over the phone. I don't know why he picked me, but he just said that I'm nervous. I'm always nervous about teaching this because it takes 30 minutes to teach anybody this, right? It's. That's. It's the whole thing. I can back, cut, snap, cut, thrust, reverso. Little bit of footwork, little bit of biomechanics, and that's it.

Rolando Estocada [00:48:13]:
So the ease of disseminating the knowledge, the knowledge transmission is easy. But the second one, this is something I experience. It doesn't matter where you're some sort of, you know, super advanced savat guy or super advanced fencer or super advanced jiu jitsu guy. It or you're just brand new to martial arts. You put something like this in someone's hands and you teach them that template, they're devastating. And I was on the receiving end of like, maybe a couple of those sparring sessions where my instructor Armando kind of whispered in it, do this instead. And it was a technique from Dwight McLemore's curriculum, the hanging guard. And for those who don't know, the hanging guard is when it's kind of like mountain man, right? When.

Rolando Estocada [00:49:00]:
Where the false edges this way, but instead you hold it this way, like way above the head like this. And I looked at him, and he was. I believe he was a US Army Rangers, and it's a really, really great guy. And Holzback. Mike Holzbach. That was his name. And he held it like this. And everyone knew the buoy was my thing.

Rolando Estocada [00:49:23]:
And I was just, what is this? Oh, my God. He nailed me with that over and over again.

Bob DeMarco [00:49:29]:
I was like.

Rolando Estocada [00:49:30]:
I was like, bro, like you. How long have you been here? A couple of months. But that's. That's the thing about the buoy is that if you have a certain template and you have a certain buoy, even if you're a beginner, you have access to it versus a Bali song, okay? A Bali song. That's not the easiest Access, right? Or a Guinun ting sword. Not the easiest access. You might use it like a frying pan, because that's all you know, Right? But a buoy knife, strangely enough. Hey, here, here, here.

Rolando Estocada [00:50:00]:
Couple of back cuts. Here's a snap cut. And stay away from his knife. And you're good. It would be a. It would be a buoy knife all day.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:08]:
Okay, before we get to the Osprey, tell us how this works. Like, what's the attack for?

Rolando Estocada [00:50:12]:
Oh, so here's what's nuts, right? I was. I still remember it because I was like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna lean back here a little bit so you can see. So pretty standard, you know, you hold it in front, edge forward. Some people like to keep it low. But the idea behind the hanging guard is that you hold it way up here, right? And then the live hand is way out to the side here, this way. So you're. You're fighting a guy like this, and he's pointing the buoy knife right at you.

Rolando Estocada [00:50:46]:
This is interesting because this is a position also from French Lacan can de combat. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I won't get into it, but the. The term for this, the quasi tet. So you do something like this, and you bend your. You bend your back, and then you can reach maybe an extra two feet. But from over here, it looks like you can't reach. So he's primed for this kind of cande combat hanging guard position.

Rolando Estocada [00:51:12]:
And the idea behind it is that I invite. This is open. Yeah. Come at Breen, girl. I got you. You can even back at me to my head. Anything that comes between this hand and this hand, as he falls in, all I have to do is drop. And anything that comes this way, this drops.

Rolando Estocada [00:51:33]:
So it's coming in. But then anything that comes through, I swipe across, and it's. It's this type of gunting.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:42]:
Yeah.

Rolando Estocada [00:51:43]:
So the movement is fake. Fake. Come out here and then. And you just. You just take everything. And then if you happen to miss that, you go to a snap cut. Then you go right back to this handguard. I ate that all day.

Rolando Estocada [00:51:56]:
I ate that all day. All day from Michael's back. And I was just. You freaking guy, you. But then, of course, later on, he showed me, and then Armando showed me. It's like, oh, no. It's. It's.

Rolando Estocada [00:52:07]:
It's this. This is how you set it up. I was like, you guys. You did this without me? How dare you? But. But it's part of the. It's Part of the learning process, especially when you.

Bob DeMarco [00:52:17]:
When you're not familiar with it at first and it looks goofy to you. Yeah.

Rolando Estocada [00:52:20]:
I was like, what is.

Bob DeMarco [00:52:21]:
What is that?

Rolando Estocada [00:52:22]:
Right. But it's in Macklemore's book, like the Hanging Guy. You should review your notes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:52:28]:
Got to check him out. Macklemore and not the musician. What's the Osprey?

Rolando Estocada [00:52:34]:
Bowie. Oh, boy. Christopher Linton. So you have. All right, so first and foremost, this is a big part of what my buoy studies are right now. Right. So you have the standard one, and this is your standard buoy model, which is in line with the Bagwell Keating template. Back cut, snap cuts.

Rolando Estocada [00:52:53]:
Right. Very European in terms of its mechanics and very much a lead shoulder. So the weapon is in the lead. Right. Then when I had my conversations with Jeff Schaefer about the chopper buoy and how some of it lends itself to the Barong. So this is more of a buoy Barong. So, you know, it's not just buoy, snap cut, back cut, snap cut. In fact, if I back cut, it turns all the way in because of its balance.

Rolando Estocada [00:53:21]:
I back cut. You see how it comes all the way in.

Bob DeMarco [00:53:24]:
Yeah.

Rolando Estocada [00:53:24]:
Whereas most booty knives, if I back up here, it snap cuts forward. This one comes all the way in. So it allows me to do these types of fulcrums. Right. It allows me to do these kinds of movements. That's from the Barong. So then my good buddy Ryan Burkhart at rmj, he. He loves to send me items, and every now and then, just.

Rolando Estocada [00:53:46]:
I just. I just kind of want you to, you know, check this out, let me know what you think. I kind of want to, you know, see how your mind works. So Christopher Linton at Osprey. So you had the classic buoy, The Buoy Barong. Well, buoy Barong, Kukri. Ooh. This is intentional.

Rolando Estocada [00:54:06]:
There's. And I'm doing an episode on this. He. I sent him my Q and A, and he answered it. There's a lot of intentionality. And just as a little side note, I tend to feature makers on my channel who have hyper intentionality, basically, in each aspect of the knife. It's not just something that's sharp and pointy and, you know, if you throw it at a car, the car explodes. You know, something like that.

Rolando Estocada [00:54:33]:
It's. It's. There's something around the understanding of the art. A good example of this is a Damon Lusky. That guy is a jiu jitsu black belt, but also studied Di Cuerdas under Mike Janice Marshall blade concept. Chris Linton, you know, walked me through basically every inch of this in the Q and A I sent him. So now you're not just looking at a buoy back cut with a barong. Now you have kukri.

Rolando Estocada [00:55:02]:
And now that's, that's very different. You're looking at different mechanics, different stances that you will not see. If I try to do it with a dedicated Bagwell Keating buoy, it won't apply because it's the balance points of difference. The mass is different, there is a recurve. So now this is something that I'm studying, but makes me ask this question, which is when you're talking about large knives or medium swords or short swords, what templates are, are, are available to us that we can integrate? So we're not just treating any knife as a knife or any sword as a sword, so that when we pick something up, we know, oh, I know what to do with this, I know what template to use with this, and I know what mechanics to do with this. And that's what I love about this. It challenges me to look at how I can integrate this into the templates.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:58]:
I know, man, that just looks utterly wicked with that recurve.

Rolando Estocada [00:56:04]:
Look at that. Fuller. You know, it just makes it so crazy light. Right? There's a beautiful aesthetic to it. This is. No, it's not sharpened, I thought it would be, but this beautiful fuller, which makes it lighter. There's. You see that hooking again here, right? That's a beautiful handle there.

Rolando Estocada [00:56:23]:
And you see how it has a kind of, I call it the double butt, where there's a butt in the back, a butt in the front. So you can, you can change so that the hand can go here and the, or the pinky can go here. So you have all of these dynamics in play. It's something that I'm still very much exploring. And by the way, it came in this. You ready for this? Look at the sheath. I know you know, this, this isn't just any old chief. And then.

Rolando Estocada [00:56:53]:
And look how beautifully it just matches up. It's a, it's a true, true worker. Look how, how discreet that is, right? How beautiful. And I'm, I'm of the mind that if you receive something this beautiful, your, your training and the thought that you put into it has to match the training and thought that they put into the making of it. The best swords makers, at least the ones from what I understand, the ones from Japan, when they were making it, they were thinking about the samurai, like the one they were building it for. And. And the samurai. The samurai's job is to live up to that level of craftsmanship so that they earn the right to hold it.

Rolando Estocada [00:57:37]:
And I treat all of these wonderful nights that way and swords that way.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:42]:
So what do you have coming up? I know you're working on an episode for that, but what. What are the knives that you're hoping. I don't know. That you're hoping to explore in the next. In the Often.

Rolando Estocada [00:57:53]:
You know what? One thing that I've really been looking at, and I had a good conversation with Ed Calderon about this, is that what are you going to do if he had something like this? Yeah, right. These. These smaller ones. The one I'm kind of obsessed with. And I did an episode, the one with. The one with the Safemaker, but it featured Bruce Lee walking around with this spike that was his push dagger. Zach Wingard.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:21]:
Oh, yeah.

Rolando Estocada [00:58:22]:
Without any. I don't think he had any realization that Bruce Lee carried this, but ended up making something. This is the Wingard Dick pic. I'm not crazy about the name. I've told him, hey, I'm not crazy about the name. Right, Right. Look at that. See?

Bob DeMarco [00:58:38]:
Yeah. I love this thing.

Rolando Estocada [00:58:40]:
This thing is marvelous because it's so utilitarian. Right. I. I saw Scott Baldwin do a short recently, you know, where he took in. I was like. He was breaking up some ice with it. I was like, look at that. But I'm going to give you a little sneak preview.

Rolando Estocada [00:58:55]:
So what if you hold it like this? This one is Captain Obvious. Right. But if you take a look at how Bruce Lee would have used the Bill G with the ijab. Right?

Bob DeMarco [00:59:04]:
Yeah.

Rolando Estocada [00:59:05]:
So now you. This is his eyab.

Bob DeMarco [00:59:08]:
But.

Rolando Estocada [00:59:08]:
But then there's something else to think about, which is thin.

Bob DeMarco [00:59:11]:
That's my favorite way to hold this.

Rolando Estocada [00:59:13]:
Yeah. This is like. Yeah. Why is this one your favorite?

Bob DeMarco [00:59:16]:
Because I like the.

Rolando Estocada [00:59:18]:
The punya aspect. Right?

Bob DeMarco [00:59:20]:
Yeah, exactly. The. The reverse grip style here. But then you have this. This front portion is very sharp and punch with it, but also reverse back fist with it.

Rolando Estocada [00:59:31]:
Yeah. And. And you know how common thumbing is in boxing, right? Yeah. This. It's very common. So you just do one of these jabs. This. So you have an extended thumb, basically, but here you have an extended finger.

Rolando Estocada [00:59:49]:
Yeah, it is, right. It's. It's.

Bob DeMarco [00:59:51]:
These things are just utterly wicked.

Rolando Estocada [00:59:53]:
Yeah. There's Tomas. Tomas Ellas and I. Tactical Tavern. We were joking about this at one point, and I said, you know, Bruce Lee carried this, right? No, I didn't know you were talking about it. And then I did my Bruce Lee impersonation. I said, see, I take this finger and I put it in your eye. Every now and then we'll text each other, he'll go, I put this finger in your eye.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:23]:
Well, that's the best impression I think I've ever heard of Bruce Lee. Tomas. I mean, Rolando. I'm sorry.

Rolando Estocada [01:00:31]:
I'm sorry.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:33]:
As we wrap, I also recommend the Back Ripper.

Rolando Estocada [01:00:36]:
I love that. Oh. Oh, my God, I love that one. I love that one.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:41]:
And. And he carries it around in his pants all the time. I'm not quite there, but it's always handy at my desk just in case anyone comes in who needs to be vanquished.

Rolando Estocada [01:00:52]:
I love that. I did an episode, I forgot it wasn't the back scratcher, it was a different one. But that curve, that back spike. Yeah, it's what it does is that when you do this, this cut over here, right, it's like a reverse pion. But what happens is that if you do this right, the edge will miss. But then if you bring your wrist up a little bit, you bring it up a little bit, this back hook, it curves down, it catches the guy. It's wild and wild. His.

Rolando Estocada [01:01:22]:
His tools are really cool, but that one, I like to use the. The biomechanics from Zulu stick fighting. I think his stuff lends itself well to the zulistic fighting methodology. And that one, specifically, Zulu.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:39]:
What don't you. Okay, we're gonna have to get into that another time.

Rolando Estocada [01:01:42]:
Another time.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:44]:
Hey, man, thank you so much, Rolando. I appreciate you coming back on.

Rolando Estocada [01:01:47]:
Oh, my pleasure.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:49]:
You'll be back. You'll be back. This is an ever everlasting conversation, I think.

Rolando Estocada [01:01:54]:
Thank you. Yeah, same. I. I think so. Because you're a martial artist, you can. You can tell that. Take a look at the, you know, like your. Your back wall, all your swords there, you know, and you know how martial artists are.

Rolando Estocada [01:02:05]:
You. You and I could just keep talking about this. This is just what we love, and I. It is indeed. Yeah. And I always thank you. I'm always grateful to you for bringing me on. I always enjoy it.

Bob DeMarco [01:02:15]:
It's my pleasure. And for those of you who are patrons, we're going to continue this conversation another 10 minutes, so definitely stick around, Rolando. Thanks again, sir.

Announcer [01:02:25]:
Do you use terms like handle the blade ratio, walk and talk, hair popping sharp, or tank like. Then you are a dork and a knife junkie.

Bob DeMarco [01:02:40]:
There he goes, ladies and gentlemen, Rolando Escutada. Love his work. Check him out on YouTube, Instagram and his his really bottomless insights into all these things that we love. Yeah, check it out. His Bowie collection is insane and he's got some great collection videos you have to check out.

Bob DeMarco [01:02:59]:
All right.

Bob DeMarco [01:03:00]:
For Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DeMarco saying until next time, don't take Dull for an answer.

Announcer [01:03:06]:
Thanks for listening to the Knife Junkie podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate and review@reviewthepodcast.com for show notes for today's episode, additional resources, and to listen to past episodes, Visit our website, thenifejunkie.com you can also watch our latest videos on YouTube@thenif junkie.com YouTube.