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Announcer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie Podcast. Your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob The Knife Junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:16]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast. I'm Bob DeMarco. On this edition of the show, I'm welcoming back my good friend Ben Belkin of Jack Wolf Knives to talk about the company's JW Collab line of knives and other brand expansions. Ben made his mark in the knife world by producing his own take on classic slip joint pocket knives. Using modern materials and superlative manufacturing processes. With excellent designs, builds and business sense, Ben achieved widespread success with Jack Wolf Knives. Since then, he's expanded the brand's offerings to accommodate most every knife collector and user out there. We'll dig into the philosophy behind Jack Wolf Knives and JW Collab, but first, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, hit the notification bell and download the show to your favorite podcast app.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:06]:
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Bob DeMarco [00:01:49]:
As we record this in October 2025. You are just home fresh from Blade Show West 2025. How did that go?

Ben Belkin [00:01:59]:
It went very smooth. It's a nice show. It's not the hectic chaos of Atlanta. And so it's the type of show where you get quality time with folks, customers, brand owners, influencers. So I really look forward to it. I like Salt Lake, you know, it's a nice time of year. There's so yeah, I really enjoyed it. It happened real fast, man.

Ben Belkin [00:02:24]:
I mean, we flew in on a Thursday show, was Friday, Saturday on a plane on Sunday and felt like a blink

Bob DeMarco [00:02:32]:
From your very first year at Blade show. At least in Atlanta. I think it was 2022, maybe 2021. I mean I've seen your, your presentation go from a table to a giant booth, like a very comprehensive booth. What's the setup like? I've always wanted to ask you that.

Ben Belkin [00:02:53]:
Yeah. So I've collected a few different setups at this point because of the evolution. So of course I started at an eight foot table. The tablecloth and a banner made the switch, I think probably the following blade show to a ten foot booth. And so when you upgrade to the ten foot booth, you need to, you're starting from scratch. You're, you have a ten foot space instead of an eight foot table. And you have to decide how you want to use your 10 foot space. And I like to get corner booths.

Ben Belkin [00:03:28]:
So I have frontage on two sides, which actually means I end up buying, renting three tables and buying three tablecloths because yet 10ft of coverage in the front, you need eight foot table and you need like the side of a two foot table next to it, if that makes sense. Anyway, so it's an investment. You're investing in something bigger behind you. So we have cool artwork, banner, and we've got three tables. I learned trial and error that better when you're standing and people are standing in front of you to have a, I guess It's a 42 inch table as opposed to a 36 inch table. You know, one's bar height, one's dining table height, it's just more natural. So anybody who's listening to this, thinking about ever getting a booth at Blade show, plan your tablecloths around color tables. It's worth it.

Ben Belkin [00:04:25]:
And then at some point as we started to get more models, and my strategy used to be put everything that I've ever made, like one of everything, at least of all my models on the table. Well, that catalog was growing and the 10 foot booth was getting crowded. So we made the decision to upgrade to a 20 foot space. And that meant a new 20 foot banner, a 16 foot tablecloth, still a three tablecloth. Three tablecloth arrangement, but now there's four tables. But man, the elbow room that you have between the difference between a 10 foot and 20 foot space is like night and day. A 10 foot space. You got two, two dudes in there and like that's, that's enough.

Ben Belkin [00:05:12]:
You know, you can't, you don't really have room for a third person in a 10 foot booth. But when you get to 20 foot booth, you can comfortably have three people back there and even four. And then at the bigger shows, what you see is folks like to kind of hang out at your table, you know, like, and then you get a critical mass of people and people begets people. So when you have that 20 foot booth, you end up with like a crew hanging out, which I really like that because you go there to spend time with people. And so to have a place where people can feel comfortable and not feel like they're being, you know, scooted. Yeah, that's the, that's one of the advantages of the 20 foot table. Of course, having more out is, is an advantage, but there's those, like, unexpected advantages.

Bob DeMarco [00:06:06]:
It's funny that you say people beget people, because this is something my wife and I noticed years ago when we were living in New York City. And then we, we kind of quip about this and joke about it. To this day. We'll be somewhere and we'll, we'll find something interesting, go up to it, no.

Ben Belkin [00:06:21]:
One will be around.

Bob DeMarco [00:06:23]:
And by the time we leave, there are throngs of people. And we're always like, see that?

Ben Belkin [00:06:26]:
We're rainmakers. We're rainmakers.

Bob DeMarco [00:06:29]:
But really the concept is people observe other people observing something and they want to see, well, what are they looking at? You know, what, what's, what's such a big deal over there? And really that, that does draw people in. I can, I can totally see how a 20 foot table would do that.

Ben Belkin [00:06:44]:
Yeah. You know, people, they can get their elbows out, they, they lean on the counter and then someone comes up to talk to them because they know them. And before long you're like a bar. You know, you've got all this bar space for people to mosey on up and get comfortable. And they got, there's knives out so they can play with the knives. Pretty cool.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:05]:
Do you think, have you seen any correlation with sales? Like people not feeling rushed to leave? Does that lead to sales?

Ben Belkin [00:07:11]:
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. What happens, you know, and, and to answer your first question, in Salt Lake, we use the ten foot table. I think it's more. Or the ten foot booth. I think it's more appropriate for that show for me to not have the 20 foot booth. Like now I can pick and choose where I do what. Atlanta and Texas, we do 20s, Salt Lake, we do 10.

Ben Belkin [00:07:34]:
And then some of the smaller regional shows, I just bring a tablecloth and just use a table. Now, to answer your question about the sales, one thing you will observe as not only a spectator, but someone behind the table is when the show gets busy and you're in the eight foot tables, there are people lined up side to side and they're kind of working down the table. And how many people can comfortably stand in front of an eight foot table? Like four, you know, realistically, and no One wants to hog the table. Right. Like everybody. Most people are courteous of other people's needs to a degree. So if you're talking to me at the table and we're just enjoying a conversation, but you sense the next guy, you're like, I need to wrap this up. Like, you know, I'm hogging.

Ben Belkin [00:08:22]:
Yep, yep. And that happens at the eight foot tables. So when you get the booth, there's more room for people to stay because now there's space on either side for another person to stay. So you're four people to fill up a eight foot table. Now you've got, you've got 20ft of frontage. So let's just say you've got, you know, 10. 10 people, something like that, that can comfortably, like fill your frontage. And when people aren't pressured to move, they're checking out what you got.

Ben Belkin [00:08:58]:
Right. And of course, there's the. I don't know if prestige the right word. Like people perceive the boobs as bigger businesses. You know, take that for what it's worth. I don't think anybody would dispute that. Not to say there aren't some major heavy hitters who have tables and some really small companies that have booze. Like, it's not a rule, but it's a perception thing.

Ben Belkin [00:09:23]:
And I think there's certainly some people who come to the shows who are like, I'm just skipping the tables, like, I'm just gonna go straight to the booths, you know, because they just perceive that's like where the action is.

Bob DeMarco [00:09:36]:
Yes, yes.

Ben Belkin [00:09:37]:
Where it depends on what kind of knife guy you are. Like, if you're a knife guy who's interested in what's up and coming in the new makers, like, you're excited for the tables, you know, that's where the new guys are. But if you're more casual, you're like, okay, I see the signs back there. Those are the big brands. Like, I'm not interested in everybody here. I just kind of want the mainstream stuff. Those people are going to go to the back into the booth.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:02]:
Do you experience or have you experienced much theft?

Ben Belkin [00:10:06]:
The only thing I've ever had taken off my tables. Let's see. I can't even. I'd have to think of how many shows I've done. I've done every blade show since 2021. So 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. So that's 15 blade shows. And I've done, I used to do the gathering.

Ben Belkin [00:10:23]:
I've done the California Custom Night show twice a year for the last few years. I've probably done 25 to 30 shows. I've only had one thing get taken off my table and someone took one of my Jax ninja stars off my table. I don't remember what show was anymore, you know. So, yeah, it's super disappointing. You know, fortunately that's not someone swiping six knives in one scoop or something. And I, and other people have experienced more theft, but you know, I think there's not much you can do about it. When the show's at full tilt, you can't keep an eye on everybody.

Ben Belkin [00:11:03]:
You're looking people in the eye when you're talking to them. So therefore you're not looking at people's hands. Right?

Bob DeMarco [00:11:09]:
Yeah.

Ben Belkin [00:11:10]:
And, and you know, outside of that, before the show, after the show, like maybe don't leave all your stuff out and create a target of opportunity. Like, I think owners have to be smart about that. But all in all, it's a community of trustworthy people, I think.

Bob DeMarco [00:11:27]:
Yeah, that's, that's always been my impression. I know every year there's like swift footed rumor will run through the place, oh so and so had a knife stolen. It's all points bulletin to find the thief. But that's like I said, rumor and rare. So I was just curious because your knives are pocketable. You know, your knives, you could, you could, you could palm them and, and walk off with them if you were, if you were that kind of a guy.

Ben Belkin [00:11:55]:
Yeah, it's, you know, you, you wish that kind of thing doesn't happen. Most of the time it doesn't, but you'd be naive to think it never will, you know. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:12:07]:
So as I mentioned up front, you and I talk about this a lot when, when you're on Thursday night knives or. I'm just talking about you in general. To me you're one of those businessmen to aspire or, or to emulate, let me put it that way. And you have done something over the past year, maybe a little bit more that has really proven me right, which is you've diversified. It's like you started, as I mentioned, with your, with your ultra premium slip joint knives and really got ahead of steam, built up, got a lot of models out on a very regular schedule and got a fan base going. And it also seems like you got desire going and those who weren't getting your knives weren't able to make the drop or, or, or pay that money at that time or whatever. And then once you had that head of steam built up, you diversified. Tell us about that.

Ben Belkin [00:13:10]:
Yeah, so you Know, it stems from I like making things happen, I like to execute, I like to do things like, you know, I, I don't know how to describe that. That's just something that I think is one of my personality traits. I'm never dissatisfied with the status quo. So everything drives from that. And also, I love this, I love what I do. And so it gives me an opportunity to exercise creativity in so many ways. Like, and this is one of the ways I really enjoy expressing and exercising my creativity is, you know, what's ultimately the goal, I would say to put a knife in every pocket, you know, at least temp somebody. I don't ever pretend I'll be the brand for every person, but I'd like to at least have an offering for everybody that they can consider.

Ben Belkin [00:14:06]:
Right, and so what's the strategy there? Well, I started where I felt I could be the most pointed and deliver what I've knew the market needed because I was targeting myself as the consumer there other people who would share my sensibilities and desires for a product in the marketplace. And that was really no expense spared. No corners cut, modern slip joint knife, modern materials, but traditional form like that was what I wanted to make. And, you know, it's hard to say if I could have just never made enough of those and just kept, you know, kept them going, would I have ever wanted to branch out? It's hard to say, right? Like if, if you could just focus your entire energy on expanding that type of product line, would you look to diversify? I don't know. But I don't know that there's any one product that can achieve that. So you, you start, you listen to what people want and what they have to say, because I'm very open to the feedback. And one of the things you would hear time and time again is, man, I wish you had a more affordable offering. You know, and it's for some people, they simply don't have it within their budget to purchase a knife that expensive.

Ben Belkin [00:15:34]:
For other people. It's just a matter of principle. Like, I don't spend that much on a single pocket knife. I, I, I, they'll buy three of them at a hundred dollars each, but they won't buy one for 300. And I would never dispute someone's logic because none of this is logical. They're just emotional purchases to begin with. Yeah, right. They're all wants.

Ben Belkin [00:15:53]:
So how you define how you rationalize buying your wants, like, is none of my business. Everybody has their own, their own ruler for that, for measuring that. And so then it becomes my job to say, well, what would that person be interested in? And how do I make it make sense within my brand, within my identity, so that I can believe in the product? Because I won't sell anything I want Carrie, or want one of my friends or my family to carry around. Like, how much, how lame would it be for you to produce a knife that you'd be embarrassed if someone gave a friend or a family as a gift? You know, it's kind of like the way I think about things is like whatever goes out there with my name, I have to be proud of and be totally willing for all my friends and family to be given those as gifts or spend their hard earned money on them either way. So. So I started really thinking about how to sort of lay it out. And there's a concept in business, in marketing, in sales, called good, better, best. And it's a way to sort of structure product offering.

Ben Belkin [00:17:02]:
And the way I perceive that is, okay, I started at best. And let's just take the slip joints because this makes the most sense in this context, because that's the most developed product line I have. So we have best, titanium slip joints, S 90 volts, whatever handle material is out there, pretty much carte blanche. We can have whatever we want and the price reflects that. Okay, better. What does that look like? Well, a trad. A more traditional knife with steel bolsters. We can reduce the cost of manufacturing in the materials in the machine time.

Ben Belkin [00:17:44]:
We can limit the handle materials available to try to meet a price point. And we can reduce the expense associated with the seal. We can reduce the expense finishings, the blades. As far as the cosmetic finishes, we can reduce the packaging expense. There is a substantial packaging expense with the premium stuff. There's custom artwork. There's the most nicest microfiber cloth you can get anywhere. You know, there's the metal cans.

Ben Belkin [00:18:12]:
Like that's something that we would need to sacrifice to reach the better price point.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:20]:
There's the leather slip.

Ben Belkin [00:18:22]:
Right, exactly. So things that you could do without, right? But you know, so. So that was the genesis of the Steel series and then recently an expansion of this price segment called Ultralight. The Ultralight series. And after I developed that and did an initial release, I really started thinking hard about what the good would be in the good, better, best, or the entry level or the attainable price point item and what I wanted that to look like. And that's. And you know, along this journey, I'm getting more brave too in stepping outside my comfort zone, taking Risks trying new things. Like some.

Ben Belkin [00:19:07]:
A lot of this is an evolution of my own growth as a business person. So if you would have asked me to do these things in the first six months of sales, I'd have been like, I don't even have the capacity to think about this stuff right now. Like, we're just trying to get this seed out of the ground, you know. But once your seed becomes sapling and then a small tree and it gets roots and has some strength and can weather a storm, you start to think like, okay, how do I get my branches out there right? Get more sun. So I. And I, I say I. But I gotta give Donnie my right hand man a lot of credit here because this is stuff we talk about all the time. So that was when we conceived the Gateway series.

Ben Belkin [00:19:53]:
And it's like, okay, what is the Gateway series supposed to be? Well, the Gateway series to me was supposed to be the pinnacle of where value and quality intersect. So, like, we're going to, we're not going to cut corners so that the quality suffers, but we're going to make decisions that don't create a diminishing return, reducing the perceived value, which is tough because now you have even more constraints. And what I thought this product should be, you know, Gateway obviously means the gateway to the brand. Like, that's what the art on the box shows. It shows Jack at the gate with his arm pointing at the castle. Like, welcome, you know, welcome to the family. Come on through the gate. And so not only is it the starting point for a Jack Wolf knife collector who wants to not jump right to the premium stuff per se, but also I wanted it to reflect the bridge for the traditional knife collector who may now get tempted by my more modern screw construction offerings.

Ben Belkin [00:21:09]:
And so that was why I wanted to do it pinned was because that's like, okay, I've got screw construction. I'm better and best. But if I really want to entice the entry, call it the entry level customer, which is often you're, you know, I mean, gosh, most traditional knives production, traditional knives are more or less entry level knives anyway. Like, case knives are inexpensive. GECs at retail are not super expensive. I mean, they've come up in price for sure. But Rough Riders are not expensive and Rosecraft is not expensive. Like, that's generally where the traditional knife market is.

Ben Belkin [00:21:47]:
So if I want to have an offering to get these folks into Jack Wolf knives, I don't want it to be so foreign from those other offerings. And so I challenged the manufacturer to do pin Construction and they're like, we can do it. And it's actually less expensive for us because there's way less machining going on. And so there's a lot of decisions there in how those knives were manufactured to reduce costs. Like, we have thinner stock, we have full black ground steel. We have as ground finishes, as ground finish, meaning you're not the machine.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:23]:
Okay. And it's beautiful. Actually. It, it, the, the satin you get from the grinder or, or whatever, however that's actually being made, it, it's beautiful as is.

Ben Belkin [00:22:34]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:35]:
This is the gate. This is the Gateway Barlow. Just in case people are wondering why I keep holding it up, this is what you're talking about. You've got steel bolsters, wood too, which is great because I know initially for the premium series, you held off on wood and other natural materials for a long time, but we're now getting that in entry level here. And the pin construction is frankly what I'm used to and what I'm sure most people are used to in the slip joint.

Ben Belkin [00:23:03]:
A lot of this is like, you know me, stubborn in the beginning. Like I, I want titanium hardware, I want screws, I want this to be different. But after a few years of doing that, it's like, okay, I want to make something else that's cool. And yeah, this Dallas Gateway Barlows and what is ultimately going to become the Gateway series of knives is more of a, like more of a mass market product. Ultimately, it's less of a niche product. And in hindsight, I'm really glad I progressed the way I did because I think as we've seen demonstrated from other brands, it's really hard if you start as a cost friendly mass market brand to do anything premium because there's a lot of pushback from fans of your brand who don't want to see you go up market whether they can afford it or not. It's a. This like one of these interesting psycho psychology observations.

Ben Belkin [00:24:11]:
And a perfect example in my opinion is Leatherman, who made this maybe for decades, the, the blue collar man's tool, right? Like on his tool belt, in his bag like we make. And granted they have expensive Leathermans, but they've always had cost conscious Leatherman's. Right. And it's like that is the everyday man's multi tool. Well, they come out with these knives that are beautiful and they're great, but they were priced outside of what I think most people would agree was for the everyday man. They got reamed for it, you know.

Bob DeMarco [00:24:49]:
Yeah, yeah. Especially when it's your first outing in that, in that particular style of knife. I thought that was a little interesting too.

Ben Belkin [00:24:57]:
I think they're core customers felt abandoned, I think they felt slighted, I think they felt left behind. And it's harder for a brand like Leatherman now. Have they done it? You know, I'm just going to quarterback here, right. So take my 2 cents for what it's worth. But my, my view of it was like, man, if you guys would have started with something more in line price wise with your multi tools, you could have very easily come out with like a version of it with upgraded parts and metals. Just you gotta leave something for your boys, you know.

Bob DeMarco [00:25:37]:
Yeah, yeah. Yes, exactly. And that's not what people go to Leatherman for. You know, it seems like you have to train your customer upfront. And I hesitate to use the word train, but that's basically what I mean. If, if you are expecting to pay $300 for a jack Wolf knife from the very start, when something comes along for 170 bucks or something comes along for 75 bucks, it's like, whoa. Especially when it comes with the reputation, right.

Ben Belkin [00:26:07]:
And you, you use the keyword and it's expecting and it's about managing customer expectations. That's what it's all about. Like customers had expected since I started that we produced expensive but very high quality knives. Like you won't hear anybody, generally speaking, dogging me about the quality of my stuff. You know, we're known for good customer service, we're known for good quality. We're known for being active members of this community. We were never known for having offerings that were more reachable. Me, that was an opportunity.

Ben Belkin [00:26:43]:
And so, you know, I have to make sure that when I do that my customers who expect quality from me are not disappointed. Right. Because if I came out with a piece of junk like no one's going to be happy with that. And I just think it's easier than to go from a luxury brand with more mass market products than the other way around. I think it's really hard to step up market, honestly.

Bob DeMarco [00:27:14]:
Yeah. Is like, it's like a film director with an actor. You want an actor who's over the top from the start and who you can pare back on as opposed to someone who can't quite ever get there. Anyway. That's, that's, that's what, that's what pops into my mind. I want to talk about jwclab, but before we do, you mentioned customer service. I personally have never had any customer service any Issues that would require customer service. But what.

Bob DeMarco [00:27:43]:
What is your philosophy there, and what are the kind of customer service issues that come your way?

Ben Belkin [00:27:48]:
That's pretty straightforward. I mean, first of all, I answer every customer service message personally. So we have email inbox support, Jack Wolf knives. Those come to me. I answer them. I am the only one who does DMs on Facebook, Instagram, and in my own personal Facebook private messages. So philosophy point number one, you reach out, you're going to talk to someone who has the authority to make a decision to give you the service you need. It might not always be me, you know that.

Ben Belkin [00:28:21]:
There might be a time where I have to delegate that, but it'll be one of the last things I ever let go of because I take a personal responsibility in the satisfaction of anybody who has a Jack Wolf knife or any of our products on honestly. So that's number one. Number two is it's really actually quite simple. Try to listen and understand a customer's issue, whatever it is. Try to ascertain what they're looking for as a solution. If they're unsure or if it's not clear, provide some options. And every option you provide has to be their betterment, regardless of what it costs me. Like, it doesn't matter what it costs me.

Ben Belkin [00:29:05]:
It does. It's not part of the equation. The equation is like, you reached out to me because you were either inconvenienced, curious about something, like, for some reason, you committed time and energy outside of what you should otherwise be doing to contact me. And so I got to figure out why, and I got to figure out how to make it right so that you don't leave frustrated, angry, or disappointed. You know, what'll that do for you? Well, there's. You do it because it's the right thing to do. Like, bottom line, that's really. That's the end of the conversation.

Ben Belkin [00:29:38]:
But the. But the consequence of that is people are satisfied with the customer service. And what is converse? If someone is unsatisfied with customer service, it's terrible for the business because this is a small community. People talk. You can write 99 people and wrong one person. And 99 of those people you write it will say Nothing. And the one person you wrong will make sure that 99 people, you write it, hear about the fact you wronged them. Like, that's human nature, you know? And so it behooves you to write everybody because it's the right thing to do.

Ben Belkin [00:30:19]:
But there's like a ripple effect from that. You know, people Trust you. They'll recommend you. They'll tell other people that, don't worry. He'll take care of you. Like, you want that. You, you know, I, I. I feel very strongly about it.

Ben Belkin [00:30:38]:
I don't understand how some of these brands don't take it seriously. Like, it dumbfounds me, honestly, how some people will look for any reason to nickel and dime a customer over something. Oh, well, you scratch that hardware, I'm gonna charge you five bucks for the shipping for some new screws. Like, just send them the screws, man. Yeah, it's like, don't nickel and dime people. It, it sucks.

Bob DeMarco [00:31:01]:
You know, I mean, I'm sure you're being a. A collector before you ever started this company has. Has a good deal to do with that. I've talked to people who got into knives, weren't into knives, and who have great customer service. But I've also spoken with some people here who have gotten into knives because they saw an opportunity, they saw an opening in the market and went for it. But, you know, they don't have that. Or at least when I spoke to them, didn't have that personal connection to knives and the love of collecting them and having them and wanting everything, you know, that. That extends itself to wanting to like the guy who's making them and selling them to you.

Bob DeMarco [00:31:43]:
Yeah.

Ben Belkin [00:31:44]:
Yeah. This is a very. You have. I think probably something that helps me is that I understand the collector and the nuances and idiosyncrasies of that state of mind. Yeah. And sometimes it's, like, a bit much. Right. Like, let's fix it.

Ben Belkin [00:32:09]:
Sometimes you're like, oh, my gosh. Right? Like, how did he even notice that? You know? But at the end of the day, it's like, I'm not here to judge people. I'm just here to provide service. Now, there's always that case of someone who just can never be satisfied. You know, you try, you do everything, even beyond what's reasonable.

Bob DeMarco [00:32:28]:
And they don't want to be satisfied.

Ben Belkin [00:32:30]:
Those people, they don't want to be satisfied. They just want to grouse. Like, you can get to a point where the customer, it's like, hey, look, I'm gonna give you your money back. Keep the knife. But I'm not the brand for you. I think you should pursue another brand in the future. I don't think you're gonna be satisfied with what we do. I'm sorry it didn't work out right.

Ben Belkin [00:32:49]:
Like, you can. You can do that, potentially never have to do that, you know, But I think what some people do is they take that theoretical customer who's impossible, and. And then they assume every customer is going to be that way. And their attitude reflects this sort of combative position of, like, I need to fight these people off because they're going to do this to me. Like, that's not the case 99 out of a hundred times.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:15]:
Could be that they themselves are those people.

Ben Belkin [00:33:18]:
Yeah, exactly. And I feel for the customers who engage with those brands and get burned. Like, I don't want that to happen to me. I don't want that to happen to anybody. But the only power I have is to essentially, you know, walk the walk, let's just say. And like, I. You'll rarely ever hear me even mention our customer service because, like, I don't want to be the one bragging about customer service. Because if you are, it's almost a red flag.

Ben Belkin [00:33:45]:
It's like, you just had good customer service. You wouldn't have to brag about it. It would just wealth. Like, I really believe that. Let the customers discuss amongst each other the customer service. Yeah, yeah, it's.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:58]:
It's funny you mentioned how it can be a little much the collector. Like, I. I can remember and, and this, this isn't so much anymore. Maybe it's because I'm absolutely awash in amazing knives, but I can remember times where I'd be falling asleep thinking about my collection. Oh, maybe there's a hole in my collection in this area, or maybe I should spend the money on this or that. And, and, you know, it is. It's a collector's mindset, and it's, you know, a little bit addictive. And.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:29]:
And it can be a. A bit of a. Well, it can be a difficult state of mind to manage. So I would imagine as a purveyor, as a maker, as. As someone in your position could deal with people who are in the throes of that state of mind, it. It could, you know, could be a sensitive area to. To walk around.

Ben Belkin [00:34:50]:
Yeah. You know, for anybody listening, doesn't even matter what business you're in. Here's one of my sort of rules about this. If you get an email or text message or if it's a written communication. That's the point. If it's a written communication and whatever the request is in, your answer back is not an absolute matter of fact. Like, no gray area, no trying to read between the lines. Like, if it is just an absolute matter of fact, go ahead and continue that dialogue in writing.

Ben Belkin [00:35:23]:
Like, hey, Ben, you might get another pocket clip for my primo jack. I bent it climbing out of the car. Okay. Which version do you have? I've got this. I've got the black. My part. Cool. Send me your address.

Ben Belkin [00:35:38]:
It's on its way. Like, that can be handled in writing. It's just very cut and dry. Or you might get a message that says, hey, man, you know, my pocket clip is a little loose. Um, I'm not sure if it's supposed to be like this. You know, I just got this thing, you know, what should I do? Like, that's not an easy conversation back and forth necessarily. I just write back, hey, man, here's my cell phone number. Call me.

Ben Belkin [00:36:05]:
Like, I've given out my cell phone number. I don't know how many times. Like, the. At least half the time there's a customer service inquiry. I don't even want to go back and forth in writing.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:14]:
I just want to talk.

Ben Belkin [00:36:15]:
I want to hear you explain to me what's going on. I want to hear the tone in your voice. I want to pick up a few of the clues, perhaps, that were left out of the written message. I want to listen. You know, that's the key word. I want to listen. By listening your actual voice, I now have a way better understanding than me trying to read between the lines, potentially on a written message. Yeah, sometimes you think this person's fuming, Matt.

Ben Belkin [00:36:44]:
They're not. Or sometimes you think they're calm and they're actually upset. So that's another thing. Like, customers, they're reaching out to you, and they don't want to be like, they want to be doing something else. They're reaching out to you because they feel. Feel a need to get something resolved. So do them the courtesy of getting on the phone and listening to what they have to say. You know, it'll help you resolve things faster and to a higher level of their satisfaction, 100%.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:15]:
And they will feel like, oh, my gosh, this guy called me. That's amazing. Or anyone called me, let alone hear it all the time.

Ben Belkin [00:37:21]:
I cannot believe I'm talking to the owner of the company. Like, holy crap, you contacted me back within 10 minutes and gave me your phone number. Like, this never happens. I'm like, it's a shame that it never happens. This is how it used to be, you know? But all these modern conveniences suck the humanity out of some of this stuff.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:38]:
Yeah, you know, please don't get me started. And you could on that. I want to talk about my three most carried knives recently. The Tango. I carried this. I'VE got stuff. Nail trails as the day is long. All over this thing.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:57]:
Got the scuffle, and I've got to want to cut myself the collusion. Let's talk about JW Collab. What is JW Collab and how did this come about?

Ben Belkin [00:38:07]:
Yes. So this was sort of the confluence of a few things I wanted to accomplish. So the first thing was when you create a design language, which I know that's not your favorite term, Right. Design language is that there was something colorway. Colorway was the one you don't like. So. But I feel like design language is right up there with colorway. Potentially.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:36]:
It's. It's up there.

Ben Belkin [00:38:37]:
You create a design language, or I should say a recognizable pattern of knives in a catalog. You created a box. Now, that's good. And bad is good because someone could be like, that's a jack wolf. I can't. I don't even see the label. I know it's a jack wolf. Like, that's good.

Ben Belkin [00:38:55]:
Arguably, you. You. You need that.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:57]:
Yeah.

Ben Belkin [00:38:58]:
However it becomes. Defines you, and it becomes hard to have a reason to step outside of that box. Like to. To have the story to tell as to why you did it just looks random. So I wanted to find a way to produce something that is different from my regular stuff, partly just to keep things interesting and also to try to reach customers who aren't turned on by traditional knife styles. The other thing is, one of the cool things about this business is all the awesome people that I've become friends with and had a chance to sort of collaborate with, but not on products available to the market. So, for example, Nick Rogers, the Scuffle, you know, he's helped me with CAD work. Chris Ortiz, we're friends.

Ben Belkin [00:39:52]:
I visited him in California a bunch of times. He's helped me at my table in this. At the CCKS California Custom Knife show, he helped me do CAD work. We kind of created the first gunslinger together. He really helped me understand how to lay that knife out. Jacob Ginsburg, who did the collusion, you know, I know him all these years, as I've known Chris. He's now out in Phoenix in the shop space with Corey, my friend of 45 years. Like, these are guys I'm friends with.

Ben Belkin [00:40:25]:
And so it's like, I want to do projects with these guys. And so that was one. And also it takes the pressure off me to keep producing designs. Like, that's another you element to. This is like, I'd like to put some more designs in my pipeline that I'm that I delegated because it gets really hard, as we talked about on our last Thursday night knives, to switch between sort of running the business side of things and then designing a knife side of things. They are. They are contradictory. So I was like, man, I've got three of these.

Ben Belkin [00:41:00]:
Like, I'm going to commit to three of these projects, and I'm going to. It's not just going to be these random knives. Like, I'm going to brand them as part of a series of knives. And they're collaborative. And so collab starts with a C, but could also start with a K. JWK will collab. Like, that kind of stuff comes to be pretty easy. That.

Ben Belkin [00:41:20]:
That marketing kind of sht. These projects were started. I was looking. I think we started these projects in July 2023. I was looking at the first CAD file me and Nick did together. It was from July 2023. So. And so the.

Ben Belkin [00:41:39]:
And I. I think the first one I did was with Chris the Tango. So these projects did not happen overnight. Every one of these projects, well, I'm not so much the fixed blade, but for sure the two folders was new ground. Like, things we haven't done before. First thumb stud, first compound grind. There's all kinds of firsts in the scuffle. First internal stop in, first back slipper, thicker blade stock, thicker handles.

Ben Belkin [00:42:07]:
Like, there's a bunch of unique stuff hidden hardware, internal threaded inserts in the scales. Like, so to me, it was like another thing was, this is an opportunity for us to break ground, break new ground. Like, we can test features, we can sort of prove these things out, and then I can take from these and implement them wider across all my products if I so choose. So it's kind of like a breeding ground for innovation. It's an opportunity to open up my catalog to more modern or different designs, attract new customers to the brand. It's just a cool story to tell, you know, like, guys like to see collaborative collaborations within our niche, I think. And it helped me put designs in my pipeline when I was otherwise really busy. So, yeah, it's a lot.

Ben Belkin [00:43:02]:
There's a lot wrapped up in that whole thing.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:04]:
It's like your skunk works kind of where. Where you get to innovate and do stuff that. That's out of your. Your wheelhouse.

Ben Belkin [00:43:14]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:14]:
And I got.

Ben Belkin [00:43:15]:
And it gets me working with my buddies, and it's like two heads are better than one. So it's like, it's just cool. Like, it's been a real hoot for.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:23]:
Me and your buddies happen to Be at least so far, happen to be so incredibly talented. I, I've loved Nick Rogers stuff since his very first prototype of which I'm lucky to own one of those. Jacob Ginsburg. I've been following him on Instagram for ages and have been coveting his knife. I had a chickpea here on loan years ago and I've always loved his work. So clean and beautiful, which is interesting. Well, for, for a number of reasons, but his work is so clean, so beautiful. And then Cerberus knives I had a glancing knowledge of, but the Tango man, that just blew me away when this came out.

Bob DeMarco [00:44:09]:
A 3 inch modern folder that, that absolutely dominated my, my front right pocket, which is rare for a knife of that size.

Ben Belkin [00:44:19]:
Yeah, those guys, you know what, they're all younger dudes in their 20s. Like, that's the other thing is like I'm turning 45 in less than a month. Like, I'm not in my 20s anymore. The older we get, the wiser we get, the less cool we get. Like, that's how the world works, you know? So it's like, okay, I can be with these younger dudes, hopefully do a little mentoring, like lead by example, and then they can bring what's fresh, interesting and cool to the table, you know, because that's what the young guys, that's what they got going on. So it's been a great success. I've been super happy with it. You know, there's reasons you could argue against it.

Ben Belkin [00:45:00]:
Like, it's very time consuming, it costs me more because I pay royalties. Like I don't need them. But it's like those are all the wrong reasons to destroy a project like that. It's like, we're not doing this for all those sensible reasons. We're doing this because it's fun, it's exciting, it's interesting, and I want to. It has to make sense, of course, you know, but it's like it's hard. And if it's hard, it's probably good, you know?

Bob DeMarco [00:45:29]:
Yeah, that's, that's true. And, and also, I mean, what a, what a way to not typecast yourself or typecast your company. You. At this point, the one thing that you can know about Jack Wolf Knives, in my opinion, is the quality. It's always going to be a quality build. It's going to be like super high quality build and it's always going to be beautiful. But I don't know what to expect from you guys. I don't know if you're going to come out with a Big bowie knife or, or a tiny little, you know, keychain.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:01]:
Anything could happen at this point, you know, starting with the slip joints, maneuvering all around the slip joint space, and then, and then going out into fixed blades and, and modern folders. That's the cool thing. You're not typecast, but you can still identify by the way, this thing is so amazing, but you can still identify a jack wolf knife, you know?

Ben Belkin [00:46:27]:
Yeah. And I, my what I hope one, anything is like that. The guys that are into it are having fun, right? Like we're having fun. We hope this translates to you guys who are coming along on the journey with us, that you're having fun, you know, and for people not knowing what's coming next, I couldn't ask for anything more. We're trying to keep it interesting, exciting, engaging, and not, you know, delivering what's expected, which is a quality knife and, you know, good service and a good time.

Bob DeMarco [00:47:04]:
So how far out ahead? I mean, you've got all these lines in the water or irons in the fire. I think that's more apropos. You have all these irons in the fire. How do you, how far out. Do you know what's coming next?

Ben Belkin [00:47:17]:
I'm already committed halfway into next year and I'm already working now on what's going to happen in 2027. Like, right now I'm focused on what rears its head in 2027. That's kind of where I'm at, like starting new projects, working on that part of the pipeline. I really need to be about two years out at all times, which is crazy. Which is crazy because it's hard, it's. It makes it hard to appreciate what's happening now when so much of your thoughts and efforts behind the scenes are focused on stuff people will see in a year and a half to two years. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:48:00]:
And it raises the, the inevitable question, you know, especially with a, a trendy kind of world product world as knives are, what's going to be hot? You know, I, I'm sure that comes into your thinking. I'm sure that's also where JW Collab can help.

Ben Belkin [00:48:21]:
Yeah, yeah. We, you. You're trying to balance being flexible and nimble with good forward thinking and planning. And there's production time cycles that you have to consider. So that's really, it's challenging for sure. And every once in a while you'll have to pivot. Like, you know, you might think today, like, oh, we're gonna be able to. I can make.

Ben Belkin [00:48:47]:
I could do. I don't know, I, you know, I'm just trying to think here. Like, you could say the future is this, insert whatever this is, and you could start planning to do a bunch of that. And then six months from now, that first one comes out, and then the second and the third. It's like, the future is not that. The future is definitely not that, because the present isn't that. So we gotta shift gears, you know. And so I try to have a bit of a mix going on here.

Ben Belkin [00:49:15]:
Like, we're working on projects in the good, better, best price ranges. Like, I, I've got projects going in all three of those and I can sort of try to gauge the market and temper my offerings and meet what I expect that to be. And I think, rationally speaking, like, you can make some assumptions that are probably pretty reasonable. Like, let's say you have a mix of. Let's just break it up into two chunks. You've got affordable items and premium items. Well, okay, what is the split? Well, it's probably like 70, 30, 80, 20, you know, something like that. It's not 50, 50, you know, like, how many Lexuses does Toyota sell for every Toyota, it's not one to one, you know, so somewhere there's like, you could spitball that number and you're probably not going to be too far off just based on your observation of the world, you know.

Ben Belkin [00:50:09]:
And so if you sort of aim in that general direction, I think you'll be okay. And you sort of fine tune as you go.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:17]:
Yeah, yeah, that's, it's. I mean, that's exactly how I see it on the road. Anyway. So USA made. You made something. It was like a scalpel. It's not a knife that I've experienced. I don't think I saw it when I was at Blade Show Atlanta, but I know it was a very exclusive, I think maybe a dealer exclusive.

Ben Belkin [00:50:40]:
What.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:40]:
What am I talking about?

Ben Belkin [00:50:41]:
Yeah, so we've been, you know, one of the criticisms is, hey, you guys need more USA stuff. So I've been working on that. That is, if you are not yourself a manufacturer, very difficult to procure products that are made in the USA that you can get in sufficient quantities in reasonable times. So we've had two major, I would say one minor. I don't even know. I call either the major. We'll just call them special projects. So the one you're referring to is called the Prickly Pear.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:10]:
Yes, yes, yes.

Ben Belkin [00:51:11]:
And that was a scalpel with a tanto. You know, the blade is shorter than the handle, so it's the scalpel style, and that was actually designed by Taylor Cortez. So Taylor is the leather maker here in Phoenix. Another guy in his 20s. We spent a lot of time together. He's made a lot of leather slips for me, and we've collaborated in that regard. And he came to me and said, I've got this really cool scalpel I want to make. There you go.

Ben Belkin [00:51:45]:
And, you know, like, can we do this project together? And I'm like, okay, I'm interested. So we ended up. Can't even remember how we got the lead at this point, because it's been a while, but we found a small manufacturer out of the San Diego area called Misfits Machining. And it's a gentleman named Brandon Garby. And he's really cool guy. He's, you know, in the military. He's a Marine. And he, I think he's still career military, but he has this as a additional business.

Ben Belkin [00:52:19]:
And so I flew out there, met with him, and sort of negotiated the project. And so the collaboration between me and Taylor was. All right, Taylor, like, you'll produce the leather slips and contribute that towards the project. You know, I'll fund the knives, and we'll both promote. I'll, we'll distribute off my website. So those never went to a dealer. They were all sold direct by me. Oh, okay, okay.

Ben Belkin [00:52:48]:
And we'll, we'll share the proceeds, you know, accordingly. So, yeah, that's how we structured that project, and it was fun. Now, the, the challenge with Made in the USA stuff is it's more expensive, obviously, and to then be able to pay a dealer to distribute them, like, to have an additional margin, like, call it a hand in the pot, really pushes the purchase price up high, like the customer's purchase price. And so, like, we're, those are $200, and I'm not making, like, I'm selling them direct. So basically, I sell those to the customer for what would equate to a wholesale price to a dealer, because I don't want them to be priced to where they're less likely to sell, you know?

Bob DeMarco [00:53:37]:
Yeah.

Ben Belkin [00:53:39]:
So that'll be the case with probably all of my USA made projects is those will be sold direct by Jack Wolf knives. And with. Because I don't want, I didn't want that to be a $300 knife.

Bob DeMarco [00:53:50]:
Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's not, not necessarily a good.

Ben Belkin [00:53:56]:
It makes it harder to distribute. Right. Yeah, I, I, I would make the same. If I sold that to a dealer, then the dealer's going to mark it up and sell it. But they're harder. It's harder to sell at that price point. If I sell them direct, I can at least get them sold for a price point I think is better, more, more attractive to the customer. It's just I don't have the reach of my dealer network, you know, so that's the risk is like, hey, like we can offer what I think is an attractive price, but people aren't really accustomed to buying from my website.

Ben Belkin [00:54:30]:
Like you don't buy Jack Wolf knives from Jack Wolf knives. You buy leather slits, you buy T shirts, coffee mugs, you buy the knickknacks.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:36]:
Yeah.

Ben Belkin [00:54:37]:
But knives you get from DLT or knifecenter Blade HQ or wherever. Right pocket knives.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:42]:
So not a good long term strategy or not a good company wide strategy, but kind of a novelty and something that you can offer from time to time that, that will get people excited. People for whom USA made is, is 100% important.

Ben Belkin [00:55:00]:
Yeah. Icing on the cake. Right. Like the dealer distributed products are like the bread and butter. Right. And then the special projects the USA made direct to consumers. Gravy on the plate, so to speak. And it's time consuming.

Ben Belkin [00:55:14]:
But it's like we do it because we want to have these offerings out there. You can make the case it's not worth it. It's way easier. You just continue to source overseas, distribute them through your dealer network, focus on growing that side of it because it's less energy than going direct to consumer. But like I don't really. It's not what guides me all the time. What guides me is like wanting to put the offerings out there that I would want to buy myself or listening to what the consumers are telling me they want and sometimes stepping outside of what seems to be the easy way to do things and doing it and seeing how it goes.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:50]:
You know, it also just lends itself to. I mean we talked about five different lines of knives tonight and that's a six. That's just, you know, diversifying your offerings. And I think that that's, that's really great, especially when it's when, when you've already established yourself and, and the, the prickly pear totally looks like a Jack Wolf knife. And I'm not sure if it's because of the surface treatment of the handles or what it is, but those are identifiable as Jack Wolf knives.

Ben Belkin [00:56:23]:
I'm glad, I'm glad you see that. You know, we did put the starburst pattern milled into the G10 scales and it does Have a Taylor Cortez sheath, which you'll see Brandon, with my logo. Now, the other thing we did that was really, really cool was the projects we've done with LT Wright. Oh, yeah, yeah. So we did. So I could. This could be our story in and of itself. So I want to really boil this down.

Ben Belkin [00:56:54]:
There's a mutual admiration between the crew at LT Wright and the crew at Jack Wolf. Nice. Like, we love what they do, their guys love what we do, and we sort of all got to know each other at Blade show two years ago or where. I, like, I can't. I don't know the timeline, but this has been cooking for a minute. And one of the guys who works for LT and Donnie, my guy, like, they were steaming and, like, we need a collaboration. Like, we. This has to happen.

Ben Belkin [00:57:30]:
Okay? So they get LT to come over to the table and introduce. We get introductions. And he's looking at all my stuff. And like, that dude likes the traditional styles, you know? And so, you know, I like this one. I like that. This is cool. My guys are always pulling out your knives in the shop, this and that, you know, so we sort of get acquainted. So more talks happen.

Ben Belkin [00:57:56]:
The next show happens. We talk about, like, hey, how cool would it be to take one of the Jack Wolf styles and have it made by you guys? Right? Like, you've never done anything quite like that before. Lt Wright makes primarily Bushcraft knife. That's what outdoor knives. Bushcraft knives. And I. So he's at the show and I'm like, which one of these do you want to dip? And he picked up the vampire. He's like, I really like this one.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:25]:
Right? Yeah.

Ben Belkin [00:58:27]:
Yep. And so I'm like, all right. So I ended up flying out there and we made a prototype, and I've visited there three times. Like, it's all Secret Squirrel stuff I got going on. I love that. But ultimately, we produced some small batches of handmade vampire hunters is what we called them ironwood, dyed bone. And people loved it. They loved that it was an lt, right? Like one they've never seen.

Ben Belkin [00:59:00]:
People were like, they loved it because it was a Jack Wolf made by LT in the usa Magnacut. Like, it was just super cool. The downside is they're very labor intensive to be make because they. I've been in their shop and watch them make knives, so they make knives quickly with not a lot of hands on deck. And so a lot of the design elements in their knives are such that they can be executed in an efficient manner by different guys. In the shop. But the vampire hunter like has all these facets on the handle. And we were doing ironwood and bone, which are individual skin scales that have to be glued and shaped and stuff.

Ben Belkin [00:59:43]:
So it's just the type of project where if I could get more of them, I know I could sell more of them, you know.

Bob DeMarco [00:59:49]:
Yeah. Yep.

Ben Belkin [00:59:50]:
But they're just time consuming. So, you know, I've been trying to figure out with lt like is there anything we can do to revise this and make it. Make them a little easier to make. Right. So we can get more of them. So we'll see. Like those guys are very busy in their shop. They have a year's backlog at least from dealer.

Ben Belkin [01:00:12]:
From just open POS with their dealers. So there's only so much they can do and lt like. I'll tell you what, Bob, if you ever get a chance to go out his way, Eastern Ohio, it's about a 20 minutes or so west of the Pittsburgh airport.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:30]:
I drive right by there.

Ben Belkin [01:00:31]:
Every time I drive home, just reach out to him and arrange a time to do a little knife junkie tour. They do, they have a little podcast station. It's just so impressive. And what's. It's not just the operation, it's. LT is a leader, the camaraderie amongst these guys and to see this like teamwork going on in there and just to get the whole vibe is like I can't impress upon you how cool it is. You would really, really like it.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:01]:
All right. So I had him on the show recently and I really good to him, what a great guy. And I, I follow him on social media and, and the videos they put out from their shop are just. I love watching them. It's like I want to be there instead of where I am at the time, which is usually work. Just, just a real quick note. Yeah. I, I happen to have an LT WR mini Northern Hunter here and I just happen to have a vampire that.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:31]:
That was not. Not intended. But it's kind of. If these two had a baby.

Ben Belkin [01:01:36]:
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, I, I could talk about how awesome LT and those guys are forever. And honestly they're quietly the. Some of the best marketers in our industry. You know, they have a forum like www.theirforumname.com. like they have their own forum that's been around since before Facebook group called the Pout House and they have like paying members and it is a highly active forum.

Ben Belkin [01:02:09]:
Like their guys love it and lt's guys are actively engaging all the time. In there. And they do so many cool little special projects in the shop. Like, they do such a good job, you know, engaging with their folks. It's really, really cool. There's a lot to learn from those guys. And they're so humble. Like they will not their own horn.

Ben Belkin [01:02:37]:
I'll sit here and tune it all day because it's like, wow, you guys run an efficient business. You make high quality knives, everybody loves you. Lt, you're this honest, hardworking, humble, like father figure. It's not for show. That's who you really are. You know, you have these young guys who would die for you, and you have these consumers who you just know so well how to keep them happy and interested in what you do. Very impressive.

Bob DeMarco [01:03:03]:
So as, as we wrap up here, I mean, yes, he is awesome and a great shop and, and who knows, may maybe, you know, he might not be on the young up and cominging side of things, but he's on the other side, the wise side. So who knows, maybe there's a JW collab in there. But whether or not there is, you've already done a collaboration with him. And I, I, I hope there's more because I would love to get a bone version. I think that would be so cool.

Ben Belkin [01:03:31]:
Yeah, I, I, and I say all this about him because it's like, that's the spirit of what we're trying to do here. We're trying to have fun collaborative projects with other people in the community to ultimately bring you guys something that's better than I would have just brought by myself. I think LT saw the value in that too. It's like, hey, we can offer a product here that is going to be different from what our guys expect, and it's going to be something to talk about and it's going to be something people really like, and it's that two heads are better than one sort of philosophy. So, yeah, man, I know that's part of what you wanted to talk about today is the collab stuff. It just produces something that I could not have produced on my own. Amen.

Bob DeMarco [01:04:17]:
I, I love creative collaboration. There's nothing like it. All the greatest things we have are due to that. Ben, thank you so much for coming on, spending your time with us here on the Knife Junkie podcast. It's always a pleasure, sir.

Bob DeMarco [01:04:31]:
And for those of you who are.

Bob DeMarco [01:04:32]:
Patrons, gentlemen, junkies, we will be continuing, continuing this conversation for a little while, so be sure to check that out.

Ben Belkin [01:04:41]:
All right?

Bob DeMarco [01:04:41]:
Thank you so much, Ben. It's been a pleasure, sir.

Ben Belkin [01:04:43]:
Thank you very much

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Bob DeMarco [01:04:59]:
There he goes. Ladies and gentlemen, Ben Belkin of Jack Wolf Knives. I I admire the man greatly. He's a great dude and also someone to keep your eye on in terms of you got a business, doesn't matter what it is. Take notes from that guy. He knows what he's talking about. Always a pleasure to have Ben with us. For Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DeMarco saying until next time, don't take dull for an answer.

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