The Knife Junkie Podcast is the place for knife newbies and knife junkies to learn about knives and knife collecting. Twice per week Bob DeMarco talks knives. Email Bob at theknifejunkie@gmail.com; visit https://theknifejunkie.com.
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Announcer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie Podcast. Your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob The Knife Junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:16]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast. I'm Bob DeMarco. On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with Cash Haggard of Revenant Corp, Maker of unique tools for self defense in non permissive environments. I've been following Cash's work on Instagram and have seen his work at Blade show and have grown especially fond of his G10 rendered pical style knife designs and the cleverly hidden capabilities of his G10 awl which resembles a common sharpie. Revenant Core's unabashed and unapologetic approach to self defense and the creation of tools specialized to that purpose resonates with me, my tastes and my philosophy. We'll get into it with Cash and find out how he became a maker of NPE tools. But first, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, hit the notification bell and download the show to your favorite podcast app. That way you can finish it on the go if you have to stop this, this listening session.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:12]:
Also, if you want to help support the show, you can do so by going to Patreon. Quickest way to do that is to go to the knifejunkie.com Patreon scan the QR code on your screen and remember, if you sign up for an entire year at once, you stand to save 12%. So just go to thenifejunkie.com patreon Again, that's thenif junkie.com patreon adventure delivered your.

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Bob DeMarco [00:01:49]:
We've been, we've been trying to do this for a little while. It's actually really cool to have you here and I had a chance to see you at Blade show this year and check out your wares again. Some very, very cool stuff. Very compelling.

Cache Haggard [00:02:07]:
Thank you. Yeah, I know we tried to make it happen for a little while. Life got really crazy. But on top of things again, finally. It's a pleasure having you over the table every time and we're going to all three of them again this year. Next year. We already have it lined up.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:23]:
Awesome. Well, busy is a good sign. Busy is always a good sign. So tell me Cash, I mean, I know like I said up front you specialize in these sort of. They're weapons, you know, weapons. And I love it when people are, you know, unflinching about calling things that. But tell me first how you got into it. Martial arts.

Cache Haggard [00:02:45]:
Right? So. So I've been in martial arts since I was like a knee high my whole life. Most of my martial arts background really being jiu jitsu and then being cross exposed to wrestling, Muay Thai and judo in that time. And then from there of my own just self exploration a lot more like boxing a lot of the knife arts. Regarding bowie knife meeting people like the Medusa edge weapon system, people into Libre a little bit exposing into Piper a little bit of a foray into fma and it's just really something I've always had a passion for. Even like medieval long sword. I just like knives or anything pointier with an edge. Really.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:31]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean you're preaching to the choir. And it's funny that you started your formal training in grappling because to me the, the where grappling and knife work intersect is a very scary and very real part of martial arts training. What did you, what did you find in, in seeing those two types of martial arts come together?

Cache Haggard [00:03:58]:
I would agree that it is scary, but it's also very realistic because with the size of knives that we carry, they don't, they don't really give you any range. Exactly. Like if I have a knife this, if someone can touch you, they can stab you essentially. And that's something that some people seem to forget with a. Even with like a lot of like slashing work, there's no difference between me being able to punch you or grab you and stab you. It so it's very chaotic very quickly. So in terms of them meeting, if you are not able to grapple at all, your ability to defend yourself against the knife is probably going to be really, really low. You're already at a huge disadvantage because once you start getting plugged, your energy and ability to fight back is going to reduce.

Cache Haggard [00:04:53]:
But if you have a lot of experience with grappling, you have a better chance at living to tell the tale or simply you having to use a knife to defend yourself. If someone is actively fighting you back because they have attacked you. So now you have to be the respond responding to it. You stabbing them is much easier if you know how to fight them off to restab again. And we often forget about that. We like to think it's purely defensive. In some ways it is. But once you are trying to defend yourself, you really need to become the aggressor of the situation because if you are just trying to get off or get back, you're mentally always a step behind.

Bob DeMarco [00:05:46]:
Yeah, yeah, it's, I mean, seems like a lot of martial arts is making space to, to do what you have to do. And when the space is so enclosed, especially if someone outclasses you with strength or size, the natural equalizer is something that you can use up close like that. So, okay, when I, when I was heavy in martial arts training, it was jeet kune do, so there was a lot of cross training and you get really into Brazilian jiu jitsu, which I was for a while, but I was always much more into fma, Kali kitty, tersha. And when you would be, when I would be grappling with, with guys who are really good at BJJ and I pull out a knife, it was like.

Cache Haggard [00:06:29]:
Oh, no, no, no, no.

Bob DeMarco [00:06:30]:
You know, the whole everything would, would shut down. And this was, I think, you know, probably 20 years ago at this point and there was probably less cross training at the time. But you ever find people resistant to crossing those streams?

Cache Haggard [00:06:46]:
I think it does depend on the person. I think now more than ever there's really this idea sphere of melding things together as people have just become more interested in more things and information is readily available to see them both in action and in hindsight as the sports of each become more popular. And then there's so much now CC TV footage of just altercation so people can point towards like, oh, this was them doing this. They did a double leg take down. They had a two on one grip to this and they can try to tie it into whatever art they're working. Any art can really do that. But that's what has really, I think spread this cross training and then people like shiv works. Craig Douglas has really done just a great job at like forming a solid body of work and being able to transfer that knowledge to people in a very condensed format for being able to work with a basic level of grappling, a basic level of working to get your knife out and use your knife out that is really transferable to people.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:56]:
Okay, you mentioned a couple of things before we get into the knives and, and the, and the other implements of chaos that you make. You mentioned a couple of arts that some people might not be familiar with. Medusa and Piper chief among them. A lot of us know libre and most of us know Filipino martial arts or the general gist. But what are Medusa and Piper?

Cache Haggard [00:08:20]:
Piper is by Nigel February is his name and nice dude. He's been very kind to me. Essentially it's his interpretation of knife arts as they are in South Africa, which is heavily dependent on relatively small knives in general, called the okapi being one of the chief ones. And it's about a 4 inch blade, it's cheaply made. So the. It's primarily a stabbing art and it doesn't really care about say, say any edge per se. Any edge is really just a bonus. It's about using a lot of the stabbing motion.

Cache Haggard [00:09:01]:
Something that people that are somewhat aware of it, they'll see this, they call it like the tumbler. This is a very common movement in there and essentially it's really just a motion to keep the stab going forward. Medusa edge weapon system is North American and it is based on prison knife usage that Mike and Seth Raymond put together from their hyper fixation on studying prison knife usage. And I think it's probably one of the best, simplest methodologies out there in terms of actually using the knife. Because the more most realistic way you're going to use any sort of implement, big knife, small knife, is you're going to stab and you're going to stab repeatedly as fast as you can, as hard as you can. Ideally because you need to become an aggressive person and to get another aggressive person off of you. And stabbing reaches vital organs. Slashing tends to, not to until you get to a machete sized knife.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:06]:
Interesting.

Cache Haggard [00:10:07]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:07]:
I would imagine Medusa is extremely effective. I mean it. We all know that in prison the, the top weapon, the weapon, the only weapon of choice really is a knife. Or at least that's whatever can be improvised as a knife. So there's a lot of knife fighting happening in those environments. So codifying.

Cache Haggard [00:10:33]:
Yeah, yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:34]:
And turning it into something is, is sounds like an ideal, ideal thing. So how did you decide that you wanted to start making them and how did you start?

Cache Haggard [00:10:45]:
It started as a whim really. I professionally was in holster making for guns and then learning how to make it on guns. I also experimented with doing just knife sheath for fun and whatnot. I learned about G10 knives and I thought it was a really cool concept. So I bought some raw G10, made some initial ones just for me to carry around and then I decided to post them up to see would other people be interested in this. Like it doesn't seem like there's a big market for it, but let's see if some people are interested in this. I want to make money and I make a cool product. I think and people start to buy it.

Cache Haggard [00:11:24]:
So I made more and I just refined it more and more over and over in the last two years, last year and a half, it's really come into just a really beautiful package, like top to bottom. I think it's really come together esthetically and functionally, if that makes sense. Yeah, from the sheath to the wrap and just the overall esthetics of them. I'm at a really happy place with them.

Bob DeMarco [00:11:53]:
Okay, so hold that one up. Let's take a look at that.

Cache Haggard [00:11:56]:
All right, this is the Grosbeak.

Bob DeMarco [00:11:59]:
That's beautiful. I love that, that profile. Now what? Tell everyone what the advantage of a G10 knife. And and also, I mean the carry system is half of it. You're not going to carry it if you have no way of carrying it, obviously. But what's the advantage of the G10 knife and then. And also the sheath, because there's a specific way you make them.

Cache Haggard [00:12:23]:
All right, so G10 knives, simply put, a G10 knife is an industrial strength fiberglass made knife. They do not set off metal detectors, they do not rust, and they're super lightweight. These are very handy. Metal detectors are becoming more and more common. And no, I don't mean try to take it on an airplane. I mean simply more and more venues for private events is becoming extremely common for metal detectors just to be there. They're cheaper than ever. You can buy them for like $100 and get a wand.

Cache Haggard [00:12:56]:
And then there's the walkthroughs and all sorts of other ones. They don't rust. So if you sweat on your knife or you're in water or high humid environments, your knives will easily rust. A lot of people that work, say police in really hot environments and they're working long hours being physically active, they will often rust out a lot of knives. And that extra maintenance they don't care care for. And so I have a big market where people like the larger ones and they put them on their duty vest and they're so lightweight, it really feels like adding nothing to it. It's so lightweight you can literally go jogging with it. And you'll forget about it while you're jogging.

Cache Haggard [00:13:37]:
But these are still tough enough that they've been tested on pig carcasses. They'll go through ribs and skull repeatedly. So it's not a cheap polymer that easily just bends and breaks. It's a very usable tool for self defense.

Bob DeMarco [00:13:54]:
So, okay, what ha you say? Pig carcasses, ribs, it can go through all sorts of tough stuff. You can Seems like you can probably sharpen these up pretty quickly, pretty easily with sandpaper if you need to. Is that right?

Cache Haggard [00:14:10]:
Yes. So I put an edge on the knives to begin with. Some people that make G10 knives don't because their logic is, well, it'll dull if you use it. I mean, that's not really a great reason to not sharpen your steel knife. But yes, if you simply swipe some sandpaper, I like 120 grit sandpaper, the little mineral oil on there and just swipe along the already chiseled edge and it'll sharpen right back up.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:39]:
Nice. Okay, so tell me about the sheaths because you know I'm. I've got a bunch of high deck sheets right here.

Cache Haggard [00:14:47]:
They're covered with metal.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:48]:
You know, you got grommets, you got clips. How do you account for that?

Cache Haggard [00:14:53]:
So for she's here, I'll pull up a different one to start. This is our more normal looking sheath. It is a Boltaron sheath. We use Boltaron because it is superior to Kydex but bolter on sheath. So non metallic. This clip right here is also non metallic. It is a spring polymer. So it's kind of like a hard polymer.

Cache Haggard [00:15:18]:
I like it more than the soft polymer clip. I find the soft polymer clips flex too much. This has a solid purchase, like a little bit of a grip to it that I really prefer. And then attaching it. We use one 8 inch shock cord. That way if you ever need to replace a shock cord yourself, it's easy enough, it's cheap. If you just string it tight like just make sure you take out the slack. It'll also prevent this from wiggling.

Cache Haggard [00:15:45]:
No wiggle, no wiggle. I don't like plastic rivets because they'll shear off and they wear out rather quickly. The these last an amazing amount of time. The shock cord is amazing. It's super strong. A little bit weirder of a sheath design is for the grosbeak that we talked about earlier. So the grosbeak can be carried horizontally on your belt like a clinch pick. It can also be carried vertically if you want on the outside of the belt.

Cache Haggard [00:16:21]:
Or it can be static line carried, which is when you take a solid line and you could wear it as a neck knife or you attach the line to your jeans button and then you stick this into your pants. Close up your pants again and now it's below the waist. It's invisible to the eye. There's nothing on the outside. So you can bypass the visual inspections of the center line. So unless someone's wanting to feel up your junk, you're gonna probably glide right through. That's cool.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:50]:
So you, you mentioned Boltaron.

Cache Haggard [00:16:53]:
I've heard of it.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:53]:
But you said it's superior to Kydex. How so?

Cache Haggard [00:16:57]:
It is more heat resistant and it is more crack resistant for cold. So it's just slightly better in every way. Really. It's just a slightly better formula of polymer plastic.

Bob DeMarco [00:17:09]:
Okay. Yeah, I was, I was wondering about that because I know Kydex doesn't take much to, to get Kydex to start to flex. And I always wondered about out in the desert or super hot environments or.

Cache Haggard [00:17:21]:
Even if you're a firefighter and you've.

Bob DeMarco [00:17:22]:
Got some Kydex on you, is that gonna just like go to nothing in those high heats?

Cache Haggard [00:17:29]:
In general, that's not a problem. It can happen if it's really hot. But it really has to get into the high two hundreds before you have to worry about any sort of spilling over. So if you left hypothetically, plastic sheath. This doesn't go for just GTA knives. Like it goes for a gun holster or anything in your car in the summer in a hot state like Oklahoma, Nevada. And it's right there in the window. You could have some splendid.

Cache Haggard [00:17:59]:
Like the, the bolt, the Kydex bolter on any thermoplastic could potentially open up a little bit and actually falter to some degree. It takes extreme amount of heat to do that. Like I said, like high two hundreds really, but it is possible.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:16]:
Okay, so let's go back to you. You start, you on a whim, you get some G10, you start, you start working on your first knives. What did those first ones look like?

Cache Haggard [00:18:27]:
My first ones I think look pretty ugly in comparison. I wish I had one on hand still. I have one buried in a box somewhere. I didn't think to grab it. But essentially my first ones, they had handle pommels that have little indents on each side. And I made it so the handle was very symmetrical, very thin. And then all of the knives had no edges. They just had like a rounded steak like grind.

Cache Haggard [00:18:58]:
Because I believed at first, like was said, like, they're really only for stabbing. There's no point to put an edge on it. After experimentation, I decided that's wrong. But that was my initial interpretation. They also did not have a, a wrap on it yet. We. I just wrapped it in hockey tape, Howie's hockey tape, and sold them like that.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:21]:
All right, I'm going to ask you about the wraps in a Second, but I'm curious. Okay, so the edge people say it's not worth it because you can dull it. But you can still cut with the edge of a G10 knife, right?

Cache Haggard [00:19:33]:
Yes, you can like, I mean, cut for a weapon anyway. I, I've used it to like cut like apples when I'm hiking. I've used them on my boat and I've cut paracord in a pinch. Like it. Once the paracord's taut, you can cut surprisingly well. You do run a slight risk of some edge chippage because the paracord obviously like pulls very quickly, but it will do it. So that's handy to know. It'll cut through clothing when used vigorously.

Cache Haggard [00:20:05]:
It'll rip flesh when used vigorously. I've cut my hand on them casually more times than I can count. There doesn't feel like icy sharp. So it surprises people. Right. But they do have enough geometry behind them that when you apply some pressure, they will cut.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:26]:
Okay, and what about serrations? Would serrations be good? I'm curious because I've made a couple of my own G10 knives. It was a while ago and you know, just like you, it was on a lark, but. But I didn't pursue it. And you know, you can sense that they're very sharp. But I always kind of thought maybe serrations is where I should go.

Cache Haggard [00:20:46]:
What do you, what do you think.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:47]:
Of serrations on an edge, a G10 edge?

Cache Haggard [00:20:50]:
I have done serrations before. I'm not necessarily opposed to them. I've just preferred the plain edge. The serrations do require extra work because then the sheath has to fit with the serrations. So the serrations on the production side for me would at least be like a final touch thing. Essentially, they will temporarily increase the cutting potential in terms of like a very aggressive tearing cut. But they will also dull with the increased speed because then they'll dull and then they'll snag. So it does become more of a actual snagging hazard.

Cache Haggard [00:21:28]:
Whereas with say steel serrations of a decent sharpness, even ran through clothing, it honestly isn't much of a snag hazard. But I don't prefer the G10 knives with the serrations just because of the speed at which it then dull, if that makes sense.

Bob DeMarco [00:21:45]:
Yeah, yeah. Okay. So hold up that second knife. It's. It was, it's sort of that triangular dagger shaped knife with the white and black wrap. Okay, so I've noticed a lot of your designs are sort of pickal, you know, kind of libre style, if you will. This is a departure. Tell us about this design.

Cache Haggard [00:22:04]:
This is called the Shanghai Small. It is a smaller version of the original Shanghai. Fun fact. So it's called the Shanghai because esthetically it's inspired by the Fairbairn Sykes, Jagger and then some of my commenters actually suggested the name Shanghai and it stuck with that. Since I love this design personally, I think the balance of just black blade to handle is pretty much just about right. I like that it's very pointy and aggressive. I like very aggressive pointy designs. Very simple grind profile.

Cache Haggard [00:22:47]:
It has an index on each side. So this has the swoopdy here, swoopy here on the bottom. And then it has this tapered handle. It really locks into your hand. So essentially your hand can wrap around here and then as your hand wraps around here, this gets smaller. Your hand is actually more closed on the bottom. That paired with this finger hooking right here just locks it into your hand even though there is no guard. So the handle shape paired with the Tsukamaki wrap provides an unbeatable grip.

Cache Haggard [00:23:27]:
It super secure in hand. I've stabbed trees with them after lubricating my hands with lube and didn't, didn't slide down my hand. So it's really impressive what it's capable of when you are careful about geometry of the handle paired with a really good wrap.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:47]:
I'm a huge proponent of the Sukamaki wrap.

Cache Haggard [00:23:49]:
I'm.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:50]:
I have, you know, a coat, a sub collection of them. I have a bunch of different knives with those and I noticed your wrap at blade show two years running a really, really nice. You get the alternating peaks and valleys just right. You do the fold over I think peak which, which gives it an even better grip. You know, some people do lay it flat and I like that too. It's a little lower profile but for, for gription there's nothing like that. That fold over style, I noticed you do it pretty well. How did you learn that and why that and not G10 handle slabs for instance.

Cache Haggard [00:24:31]:
So the Tsukamaki wrap originally I, I tried to do something and it looked more flat like like you've mentioned like I think auxiliary manufacturing and some other people do like it's kind of like just like a flat fold over or not like the crease. I did something similar to that and then I looked up the Japanese handle wraps and then I watched like a sword maker wrap the handle. I was like okay. And then there was another maker at the time, Plain Sight Tools I believe was his moniker. And I asked him like, hey, like, what's your experience with these handle wraps? How do you like them? How do you do them? And so then I did that and then I modified it once step. I basically minused one step. So it's one fold instead of two folds. And I believe to me at least it feels like a secure handle and it feels more contact with the flesh and it's overall a little bit more hand filling and biting because the Sukumaki wraps, we epoxy coat them.

Cache Haggard [00:25:38]:
So it's hard. The harder you actually grip it, the more it's going to grip into your own hand. So it's really become a, like a. It was an evolving process and now my wife Katie does all of them and so she is the rap master now and wraps them all the time. Oh, that's cool.

Bob DeMarco [00:25:55]:
And is, is it eel skin that you have underneath?

Cache Haggard [00:25:59]:
We use ray skin like from Stingray. This is a limited white edition. The normal is this black. They're both beautiful. The pebbly textures. That ray skin, that's amazing.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:16]:
You know, it, it's amazing to me because it's such an old process, such an old material, you know, using ray skin for instance, but persists for a reason. You know, it's just a really, really great grip. Of course you can get modern, you know, you can get textured G10 and all that, but. But you would have to do a lot of carving and milling or, or you know, relief work to get that same effect.

Cache Haggard [00:26:46]:
Yes, so that I forgot that second part of your question was why not say handle scales? Handle scales. So that would essentially triple the amount of G10 used. It would simplify some things. And now it's no longer a hand done process per se, but I could just slap handle scales on and a little bit of finish work. However, the handle scales will always be more slippery than the wrap. Even the most aggressively textured and knurled handles, they will slip more once any water, lubricant, blood, anything is added. The Micarta or the G10, carbon fiber, etc. It's just not grainy enough of a material that it'll slide.

Cache Haggard [00:27:33]:
It's very quick to just get slippery and slide, which on. That's a reason why if you have knives like that is very important to still have a guard in my opinion. And you shouldn't have a guardless design on some sort of very slick handle that essentially Sheetan and Micarta bear are always slick. They really are.

Bob DeMarco [00:27:58]:
Right. And if you take a Dremel or something and you put grooves in where the Dremel is carving out space. That surface is going to be slick, you know, even though it's, it's depressed in. Whereas on a Tsukamaki wrap there's a depression or a valley there. And then what's bottom of it is that nubby Ray skins. So I mean you've got here, down there. And then the lace itself has a, has a texture.

Cache Haggard [00:28:24]:
It's very textured. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:28]:
So show us, show us some more. And as you do, I will, I will say before we started rolling, I bought this all from you. Blade Show 2024 and looks just like a sharpie. And I've carried this a lot and it has gone with me lots of places, let's just say that. But it has a G10 little tip there that's very sharp. Well, before we get to the other knives, tell me about this a little bit.

Cache Haggard [00:28:58]:
So the G10 all. So that's the regular one like you showed. And then we have this in all sorts of colors, red, green, blue, pink, purple, gray. We also have the super size. I actually like the super more. It's very hand filling. Yeah. A lot of people don't like to carry them just because they're bigger.

Cache Haggard [00:29:19]:
But if you really want something hand filling, this will feel really good in hand. You could put like a piece of hockey tape around here. It'll be super grippy. How they're made. A G10 rod is put through here. Oh, sorry, back up. This is took apart. G10 rod is put through here.

Cache Haggard [00:29:39]:
Then the body is filled with epoxy and then we close the cap together again. And now there's epoxy in here and the rod is now fixed. So if you have to use it, it's not going to just blow back into your hand or anything unpleasant like that. So it's a solid unit. You can use it to undo knots. Gore open Amazon boxes. Self defense tool. They're really quite handy as a general purpose Little awl.

Cache Haggard [00:30:07]:
That's why I call them awls.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:09]:
Yeah. Zach Wingard of Wingard Wearables is a. Is a fan of saying you should always carry a knife, which I agree with, but you should always carry a spike of some sort. And it's not just for the reason we like, you know, that we fantasize about, oh, I'm going to defend myself with this. But for the reasons you mentioned, it's great for scoring things, it's great for opening things, untying knots, doing, you know, lots of stuff, carving your, your coffee mug. You know, when you or your coffee cup when it's not carved well enough, whatever the purpose is taking out staples. What, what inspired this, this implement just to keep it hidden or.

Cache Haggard [00:30:49]:
So admittedly this was not my initial thought. I had people simply requesting that I make these and I was really hesitant at first. I was like no, I really like the knives. I like knives. Knives are superior. But finally I got word down. I agreed and they sell really good for me. And admittedly I do like them more now that I actually built them and used them because a little handy knot tool.

Cache Haggard [00:31:17]:
I, I use it regularly for like undoing literally knots. The helping with wraps, Amazon boxes, I, I use them all the time and it's something with a cap so it just can just covers up. You're not going to poke yourself like because most like say like knitting awls or anything, they don't have like a little sheath for them. So it's pretty cool in that regard. I've had a bunch of people message me. They use them as beer chugging tools on their boats because they don't rest. Oh, nice.

Bob DeMarco [00:31:48]:
Okay, so show us a couple of, show us more of your designs. Tell and tell us where they came. Oh yeah, I remember this one.

Cache Haggard [00:31:56]:
I like this one. Talon V2. This is the, the new one. Newish I should say. And it's got all the goods. It has this very aggressive high call shape. It's got a, it's got a fairly wide blade I would say. So the edge is pretty sharp on it.

Cache Haggard [00:32:15]:
Very grackle like profile for the tip alignment. I really like tips that are fairly in line with the center line of the handle. Very small amount of deviation up or down. I don't really like extremely down or extremely up. I think it's unideal for stabbing. You're going to stab with something, something fairly in line with the middle of the handle. So approximately where you're holding it is really going to be functionally the best. It has subtle curves in the handle.

Cache Haggard [00:32:45]:
There's a tsukamaki wrap and then it also has the hook. So the hook can help add security in hand when it's being used. So your hand has another spot just as a hand stop. And if you're just practicing your knife draw. It's also a great index. You always know where your hand is and it can catch easier. I prefer, prefer hooks over rings because hooks are easier to get into. I can just and can come from here.

Cache Haggard [00:33:15]:
I can come from here. I can easily wrap under with a ring. It's often this fishing motion and it's Very awkward and much harder to do under any sort of training stress.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:28]:
That's interesting. What was the. How did you identify the need for this?

Cache Haggard [00:33:32]:
I noticed some people really like the bigger knives and so I have a bigger version of the Grackle, which is called the Carrion. I don't have one at the moment, but this is the Grackle, so a bigger version of this. But some people really like the idea of hooks. Not hooks, sorry, rings. I got a SL rings like SOP, daggers, etc. And after playing with them, I still just wasn't happy with the. The ring. And so other people do hooks.

Cache Haggard [00:34:07]:
And I tried the hook and I just found it to be really superior, especially any sort of training duress. I think it's just a better way and I can quickly un. Grab it, switch it. I don't have to fumble with any sort of finger motions.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:22]:
Yeah, I'm a big fan of the hook myself. Uh, show. Show that in the sheets, please, so we can take a look at that.

Cache Haggard [00:34:29]:
All right.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:30]:
And then we can see that shock cord in there holding the whole thing together. So the grackle, the one that you were just holding up, that's. Is that your flagship or was that your first famous model?

Cache Haggard [00:34:41]:
It's the flagship and the first one that really got famous. Yeah. It's a. It's had a few tweaks in its life, but I think it's really just came into its own. It's gorgeous. The. It's the pike hall design. Everyone really liked the pike hall, at least my initial following.

Cache Haggard [00:34:58]:
That's really what got everything started. Whereas these call shapes again, I'll say so the tip alignment, it's very close to center of handle, which I find very desirable. It has a fairly straight under right here. And then this schwooky is subtle, but it's there and it does make a difference. So when your hand is actually wrapping around, kind of helps lock it in in both sides. So there's a little bit of differential. So if you're pulling, it has some pressure to resist against sliding off and the ramp up, if you're going forward, it has a little bit of pressure to resist sliding just straight forward. Paired with the Tsukamaki wrap, it's even with say a three finger grip, it really not going anywhere.

Cache Haggard [00:35:51]:
You grab onto it as hard as you can and you can make it run. This is a. I'm in love with this thing though. Every time I go to the Walmart parking lot or somewhere and I see a grackle like One of the birds. There's my money maker.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:06]:
So in your opinion, what, what is the benefit of the tip down edge in style?

Cache Haggard [00:36:13]:
All right, so pay call. So originally the terminology for pay call was simply just someone grabbing, say any sort of knife like this. So this is more traditional looking knife instead of the pycal would be just to flip it around like this. The philosophy a lot of people have is stabbing and ripping, dab and ripping. In practical terms, I think that's also a little bit idealistic. Realistically, it's just a stabbing and tearing motion in general. Even if you did have a dull edge, so that leveraging is going, it's going to cut on this top edge still, it doesn't matter. It's just a function of in and out.

Cache Haggard [00:37:00]:
However it does, with the back edge sharpened toward you, it does idealize this ripping motion. It aids in that cutting potential this way. And when your life's on the line, maybe you want that little bit of extra help. Speaking of which, that's also why most of my designs are double edged. I like a little bit of edge on both sides. That way it helps on the penetration no matter where the pressure is. Because as you're stabbing, obviously there's going to be, say more pressure on the top side or the bottom side, depending on like the angle of entry relative to the thing being stabbed. And it provides a smoother insertion.

Cache Haggard [00:37:42]:
It increases cut potential on the inside. And esthetically, I've always just find them very pleasing.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:49]:
I find them very pleasing too. I love that style of knife. Have you gotten feedback from any of your Libre buddies about this, about these designs?

Cache Haggard [00:38:01]:
Scott Babb has a grackle that he got for me. He did a video for me too of it. He really loved it. He really likes it. Some other miscellaneous people that train libre, they love the grackle. It's just been received really well by that community overall. And all the, all the reverse edge philosophy, people really like it. The gross beak being more popular, similar ish size, a little bigger, but similar size, but that same high call profile and a little bit more bulbous of a handle as Craig Douglas prefers.

Cache Haggard [00:38:42]:
Only ours isn't round. It's of the clinch pick kind of.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:47]:
Kind of. You're saying it's more in league with the clinch pick?

Cache Haggard [00:38:51]:
Yes, the, the growth peak. Yeah, it's a little bit more in line with that. I changed the blade geometry so the tip is slightly more forward, which I believe aids in the penetration. And it's just superior for stabbing versus the, versus the tipping way. Down here it's a little better.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:11]:
I'm, I'm a sucker for that sort of egg shaped handle as well. Like, I have an old, I recently scored an old cold steel desperado. I don't know if you know what that is, but it's. Yeah, yeah, I love that. That's the first time I ever saw that. And, and that style handle. And then I have a clinch pick and I have a gunfighter customs that has that. And it's such a secure grip and, and there's no, you know, there's, there's no chance of it being levered out of you, out of the back of your hand with the, with the pommel or any of that.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:44]:
You know, that can happen a lot in training. I'm not actually sure if anyone has ever actually pulled off a disarm like that, but still, that's how my mind thinks. And to have the whole thing hidden nestled in your hand is reassuring. And it's also a very strong, strong way to hold the knife.

Cache Haggard [00:40:03]:
It is a very strong way to hold the knife in terms of how people lost their knives that way. It actually, yeah, you, you can find live footage inside prisons, you can find footage outside prisons on completely untrained people as well as say like trained officers or whatnot. Leveraging knives out. It happens most often with uncommitted attackers or lightly engaged attackers. It doesn't happen as much when people are being extremely aggressive and volatile, but it is, it is definitely a possibility. That's why if you're going to use a knife, you're going to grab it and you should hold it as hard as you can and just run it like a sewing machine.

Bob DeMarco [00:40:46]:
Let's talk about the, these other two here. I'm seeing the impale main puncture. The imp.

Cache Haggard [00:40:53]:
The imp.

Bob DeMarco [00:40:54]:
That's cool. And then also. And then I want to talk about the drop point recurve too. That's pretty sweet.

Cache Haggard [00:40:59]:
So here is the imp. This is one of the oldest models as well. So impale main puncture. It has an edge as well. It is 0.31 inch thick. So it's a more rigid G10. The reason I have my 0.31 is because in this slender profile, I just like the added rigidity of the thickness of the G10 and the wounds it leaves is just nasty. It leaves mean triangular wound patterns.

Cache Haggard [00:41:31]:
No Sukamaki wrap. But next best thing. This is a hemp twine wrap, epoxy coated. I find the hemp twine to be more grippy than jute or Similar twines or cotton cord or anything like that. And then I could get it in black, and it's just very pleasing to look at.

Bob DeMarco [00:41:49]:
Yeah, I love that kind of wrap, too. I'm a sucker for all sorts of wraps, but I love jute. And you said that is. That's hemp twine.

Cache Haggard [00:42:00]:
Okay. And.

Bob DeMarco [00:42:00]:
And then you have an interesting feature on the sheath on this one.

Cache Haggard [00:42:04]:
So this is a sheath option. So this is a hook on the sheath. This is an option for the grackle, the imp. Input hook. The input hook is just this with a hook on the end. And essentially it has a hook right here. So as you have it in the pocket and it draws out, it's going to catch. The reason I have it down low versus up high is it makes sure that it is out of your pocket when it actually deploys.

Cache Haggard [00:42:36]:
If you have a really high hook up here, what can happen is if you're moving around a lot, you can have it wiggle up just a little bit. And now it's pressing up here high, and now it disengages. Or you're going to pull it out of your pocket, but it pre deploys, but your hand gets jammed back. Because say you're in a training scenario and you're trying to pull your knife from your pocket, it jams back. Next thing you know, if that was a real knife, you'd have just stabbed yourself in the thigh, and that would be a very pleasant experience. But keeping it low keeps that deployment. It also makes it very nice for your own hand if you're just going to hook it off or you can even swipe it and it'll hit a head, a shoulder, clothing, and it'll deploy and just stab away.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:25]:
It also seems like I've had trouble with higher hooks. Losing the sheath, basically doing it. And it deploys properly, but it also goes flying off because the hook, you know, it's too, too high up and it ends up levering it out of the pocket.

Cache Haggard [00:43:44]:
Yes, I, I've. I've had that issue before. The hook does oftentimes say that it'll actually catch on the pocket and it'll literally just kind of sit there. Now, if you're being very. If you're in a fight scenario, of course, the skis may still get lost somewhere, but that's a secondary concern. Yeah, we have the shock cord attached. So in the case, say that you want to attach this to your jeans button or just your belt casually, you can do that as well. And you can even just carry it in the Waist and that hook will, once it senses say the pressure of your belt or even just the pressure of your, the waistline seam, it can actually deploy right there and you can carry it casually in the pants like that.

Cache Haggard [00:44:26]:
Some people call it samurai style or static line.

Bob DeMarco [00:44:30]:
Whatever your preference, intuitively it seems like it's going to, it's going to snag very early down in the pocket, maybe even on the pocket itself. Not on the seam but on the, the fabric of the pocket and, and just stay down there deep. I, I, I appreciate that style of design. Before I want to ask you some business questions, but before we get there, let's check out this drop point recurve.

Cache Haggard [00:44:55]:
Oh yes, here it is. Beautiful. This is a beautiful one in white. So the drop point recurve has this single edge and then it has a little bit of a swedge to keep that double edged profile on it. I love it. This is a more traditional looking knife and that's really the reason I made it because I think it looks very appealing to a lot of people. Say the, the Grackle, the Grosbeak, even the Shanghai, you look a little odd and compared to like a lot of other knife handle designs but this one looks more normal. It have, we have a generous index here.

Cache Haggard [00:45:37]:
That way it stops hand from sliding this way, this little gentle curve that way it fits really nicely into the hand. This little smaller incurve right here, it really just follows the line of the hand and it just melts right in there. This is slightly curved inward, just a small amount and that just helps with that whole curving around and it wrapping into your hand so it really bites in. It's a more substantial size tool as well. I think that's probably, it's probably like a four and a quarter inch blade. Something close to that, maybe 3.75. Don't know it off the top of my head unfortunately. Tukamaki wrap unbeatable the sheath, nice snappy retention on all of them.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:29]:
Do you think that this one has more utility, general utility than the other models because it looks more like a knife or was that, or is that just to kind of please people's desire to see something that looks more familiar?

Cache Haggard [00:46:45]:
I think so. The grind is a very deep single edge grind. So something like this or something like that, Talon V2 or any of the designs that have a really long grind are going to be a little bit more cutty because of the edge geometry. It'll get down a little thinner there but overall they'll all do the job really okay.

Bob DeMarco [00:47:12]:
Yeah, that's a nice looking knife. I like the profile of it. It begs the question, which I'll ask later, but I'm curious about the business of it. What was it like? What have you learned in the, in the years you've been doing this about running a knife company or running an NPE tools company?

Cache Haggard [00:47:34]:
Interesting. All right. I mean I could go off in a lot of directions here really. I think I, I'm a very tenacious person. I'm a very driven person and I also think just there, there is a luck involved with any sort of business or just life in general. So my lucky breaks, I'm very happy to have got them but I have maximized all of them to the best that I could at the time. And I've reached out to countless people trying to like sell my knife especially early, early on and I was turned down constantly. Constantly just non stop, no, no interest, not interested.

Cache Haggard [00:48:15]:
That's stupid. Don't like it doesn't make sense. You're trying to arm terrorists, someone's going to take that on a plane, blah blah, blah, blah blah. And I mean it was probably like 100 to 1 in terms of feedback. I got a lot of negative feedback before I got anything that was positive. It's a, definitely a niche item. So it took me a long time to like make the, the sales script. The ability to translate as quickly as possible all the pertinent information about the product and why it's a good product to someone.

Cache Haggard [00:48:54]:
That's, that's the hard thing because I have to educate someone about it like almost always like from the get go, hey, this is what it is, this is why you need it or could have a use for it. Here's the upsides, etc. And then quickly build in the responses to all the rebuttals. As a steel knife, you're, it's not really that same thing. It's really catching in terms of what's the design, what's the steel, etc. So it's, I think it's easier to get to just go into steel. It's very competitive market obviously because there's so many people doing it. But that is the easy thing.

Cache Haggard [00:49:37]:
The hard thing was really translating the why. And then I've built up enough people now that it's a full time business for me and my wife to do it full time and sometimes I get part time help. Oh, that's cool. Feel free to ask any question, any direction because it's a very open ended.

Bob DeMarco [00:49:55]:
Yeah, sure. Well, I'm Curious that you were, you were saying you got a lot of, a lot of negative responses at first. Are these from other knife makers that you were reaching out to, or is this from companies you were trying to get to distribute the product?

Cache Haggard [00:50:10]:
So initially I, I started off, I would cold message both people and companies, and I would either be ghosted or get negative feedback from individual knife makers. I really didn't talk to, like, a lot of makers, honestly. I only talked to some from all the makers. I did get positive feedback about my designs and everything, and people liked them. Their feedback, though, doesn't translate to sales per se. What translates to sales is someone swiping their card and giving you their money. And so I think that's something that can get people, they can be. They can get positive information from like, say, one area and negative information from the other.

Cache Haggard [00:50:59]:
And they could go on with a very bad idea for a long time or they could go on not very long with a very good idea. And there's risk in that.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:09]:
Well, it seems like with a, you know, it's a relative, like you mentioned, for regular knives, steel knives, it's a, it's a big market. It's almost, you might say, a flooded market. And it's full of people on the buying end, like me, who know what they like, but also are open to.

Cache Haggard [00:51:28]:
A lot of different things.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:30]:
But there are also people who know what they like and they, and they just go after a very limited, you know, a very narrow focus in their collecting or usage. But with the stuff that you're creating, it seems like you're either interested or you're not. And, and I could see how that could actually be a benefit in terms of, you know, you doing business. Because people are going to seek out your, your work because they have a need for it. They have a need for something that they can defend themselves with but also use on a daily basis. Something that's light, something that won't rust, something that, you know, it kind of walks on the outside a little bit. And that's, that's something a lot of people want. So it seems like the fact that you've carved out a little niche for yourself is a pretty valuable business tool.

Cache Haggard [00:52:26]:
Yeah, it really is. So like you said, like, if someone, if I'm able to translate the information to them in a way they're receptive of, and then they're like, yeah, I have a use for that. Because some people legitimately don't care about, like, knife rust, don't care swagway. I don't care Metal detectors are like, I would never go anywhere, blah blah, blah with a metal detector. So they say. And so some people like, it's a hard. It's a hard no. Which to be fair makes it easy just to be like, okay and cut it on next person.

Cache Haggard [00:53:02]:
And I'm, I'm thankful for that. And it just took a really long time to really develop some sort of intuition. Regards like, okay, these are my people and these aren't my people. Finally having like so having a website for a little while now and really developing just the email list and being able to communicate directly not through like say a channel like Instagram, which I still use religiously, but having a direct line of communication that really helps reaching out to businesses. I have found regarding everything. It's. It really does come down to do you have someone who can oftentimes be an intermediary? Now if you have a more normal product, it may not be quite as hard, but if you have a weird product, you oftentimes need some sort of intermediary to get them interested in at least the concept and not just be like spam mail, don't care, Weird, not worth a shot. I'm not complaining.

Cache Haggard [00:54:02]:
I'm very happy with where I am and sales have continued to climb every year. So I'm, I'm really excited about the continued growth. And we've got some stuff in the works with a lot of dealers and we're just continuing to pump along.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:20]:
So how do you decide when it's time to come up with a new design? You've got a number of designs, I think.

Cache Haggard [00:54:26]:
What, eight?

Bob DeMarco [00:54:27]:
Is that right?

Cache Haggard [00:54:28]:
Eight designs, I think currently, but I, but I have a lot more than that. I've recently purged the website to try to simplify some things. Took off some models that weren't selling as well or I thought were kind of redundant to the overall scale, schema and idea of my offerings. And that's really just from our production perspective, making them and making knives, that one we like the most. So we feel is a really good representation of our product and what it should feel like and look like. And secondly, making it easier on the customer with having a few less options and not having to wait your four hits pages of micro changes. Right, right. And it also just makes it easier on us because I try to keep a certain amount on hand and that way I can fulfill orders faster.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:21]:
Well, okay, so the, the question I was saying is, you know, kind of the ultimate question is, is this, is this where Revenant Core is built to stay or do you have any desire to go into folding G10 knives or steel knives or something different?

Cache Haggard [00:55:44]:
I've thought about this a lot and my opinion has changed over the course of time. But I think with my experience in time, I. I'm finally happy with the answer that I'm going to give G10 is go is here to stay from there. I want to get into steel from steel. I. I don't think it'll go past steel. I think G10 and steel is really going to be where the product stays. I recently did a couple runs of titanium grackles.

Cache Haggard [00:56:16]:
Those did. Those did good. They're really cool, really niche. They're as light as the G10, but more cutting potential and they're harder, even thinner. That being said, I feel like the steel is, is really the logical step because the titanium still sets off metal detectors. They're beautiful and they're a niche item. But I feel like I can sell more steel than titanium knives and production wise, easier to do steel and they're just better. They have a harder edge, more utilitarian.

Cache Haggard [00:56:52]:
It's easier to translate that need for say, this cool knife and steel than it is titanium. Because I'm already selling people on G10. I should make it easier on myself to sell people on similar design in steel. That's cool. Rather than having to sell them on a whole new material Again.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:11]:
Right, Right again.

Cache Haggard [00:57:14]:
Right.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:15]:
Well, you know, if your answer was I'm sticking with G10, I'd say, man, good for you because this is a hell of a. Of a little corner of the market you've got. But also, I'd love to see your designs in steel too, because they're beautiful. I like the way they look and they just seem so very useful. Not just for self defense, but for everything.

Cache Haggard [00:57:40]:
Thank you. Yeah, I mean I really have a. I think, I think all my designs look very interesting. I mean it's forged in part with what my customers like. But honestly, I really think about me and what I think a good handle geometry is what I think a good blade geometry and profile is in all the little nuances that goes into shaping that. Because I see a lot of frankly soulless knife designs out there that are just copy patterns or they're just. They're a little too. They look a little too weird and too fantasy for my taste.

Cache Haggard [00:58:14]:
Nothing wrong with those or they're just too, too industrialist and they just look empty to me. There's nothing wrong with them either way. But of course I would like my own designs. Yeah. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:29]:
Well, there's there's a, you know, there are a lot of knives out there. We don't need any soulless knives. So we'll keep our eyes peeled for more Revenant Core and who knows, maybe steel in the often. Cash, thank you so much for joining me on the Knife Junkie podcast. It's been a real pleasure.

Cache Haggard [00:58:46]:
Thank you. I really appreciate it. Great talking to you, too.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:50]:
All right, well, stick around if you're a patron. We're going to get into it a little bit more, but until then, thanks so much, Cache.

Cache Haggard [00:58:56]:
Take care. Thank you.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:58]:
There he goes, ladies. and gentlemen, Cash Haggard of Revenant Core. If you want to keep up with him, check him out on Instagram, but also go to his website, which you saw here on the screen, and you can keep up with him there, as well as newsletters for his various drops. All right, for Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DiMarcos saying until next time, don't take Dull for an answer.

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