The Knife Junkie Podcast is the place for knife newbies and knife junkies to learn about knives and knife collecting. Twice per week Bob DeMarco talks knives. Email Bob at theknifejunkie@gmail.com; visit https://theknifejunkie.com.
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Annoncer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie Podcast. Your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob The Knife Junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:16]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast. I'm Bob DeMarco. On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with James Williams, luminary of the knife design and martial arts world. James spent many years serving in the US army and in the deep study of fighting at close range. He's codified his own system of armed and unarmed close quarters combat and has taught that system to military special operators of all ilk. I first met James in the Sheridan Hotel lobby during the Blade Show 2022 and we had our first conversation on this show later that year. I'm excited to have him back on the show for an examination of the intersection of real world martial arts, escalation of force and the use and design of fighting knives. We'll dive deep into those heady waters with Mr.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:06]:
Williams. But first, be sure to like, comment, subscribe and hit the notification bell. And if you'd like to help support the show, you can do so by joining us on Patreon or joining us right down here below on YouTube As a gentleman Junk. Quickest way to do that is to go to the knifejunkie.com Patreon or scan the QR code right here on your screen. Again, that's thenifejunkie.com Patreon adventure delivered your monthly subscription for hand picked outdoor survival EDC and other cool gear from our expert team of outdoor professionals. Thenif junkie.com battlebox James, welcome back to the Knife Junkie podcast, sir. It's great to see you.

James Williams [00:01:47]:
Nice to see you again.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:47]:
Well Bob, to those who maybe didn't see the first episode, let's, let's just dive a little bit into your past, get a little context for the conversation we're gonna have. You served in the U.S. army?

James Williams [00:02:00]:
Yeah, I was in the army from 66 to 69. You know, I grew up.

James Williams [00:02:05]:
I grew up.

James Williams [00:02:06]:
I was born in the 40s, as.

James Williams [00:02:08]:
My Irish friends say, the Forties.

James Williams [00:02:11]:
I grew up going Catholic school with the Irish side. Had to start fighting at an early.

James Williams [00:02:14]:
Age whether I liked it or not.

James Williams [00:02:17]:
And I was actually a small kid growing up and I couldn't see and I didn't know that until second grade. I literally couldn't see your eyes from four feet away. I was legally blind without glasses and didn't know till second grade. So thick glasses, not a big kid. Knew kid school a lot because he moved a lot so in those days, fighting at school was a common thing.

James Williams [00:02:40]:
On the way to school, on the.

James Williams [00:02:41]:
Way back from school, I actually, I didn't, I didn't like it very much and I wasn't that good at it in the beginning. But when I look back, there was a code and I think the value of that when I see so many even guys going to the military now that have never actually been to fight, you know, and I'm just talking like a schoolyard fight, you know, not so. So it's kind of interesting. But so that kind of gave me a desire to be better at learning how to do that.

James Williams [00:03:13]:
Right.

James Williams [00:03:14]:
And so I've spent most of my entire life at different levels of different things doing stuff like that and not always under controlled circumstances, shall we say.

James Williams [00:03:30]:
And I was really fortunate at one point to.

James Williams [00:03:38]:
Meet Donna J. Sensei and have a look into the old Cody.

James Williams [00:03:43]:
With the old systems.

James Williams [00:03:45]:
Right.

James Williams [00:03:46]:
So I wrestled, I wrestled a bit in high school and college. I coached wrestling, I boxed, I kickboxed, I was successful at. Somehow they found people I could beat in the 70s. So I was a successful kickboxer with a really amazing teacher, Frank Scalercio Jr. Who the best martial artist nobody's ever heard of. And he brought boxing and boxing from Boba Olsen. So he trained at boxing with former.

James Williams [00:04:14]:
Middleweight champ Boba Olsen.

James Williams [00:04:18]:
Oriental Martial Arts 64, 65. I got a motorcycle so I could drive across town and be shot in the Yoko Nawatei. So I've studied several karate Systems, Tan. So Dr. Taekwondo showing you Filipino systems, Chinese systems, Russian. Yeah.

James Williams [00:04:40]:
Stuff from all over.

James Williams [00:04:42]:
It's been very, very interested in continuing.

James Williams [00:04:46]:
To expand and see what actually people did, how and why. Been quite involved with teaching military special operations and not just ours and having other experiences plus working with them.

James Williams [00:05:05]:
And realizing the difference between engagement, reciprocity and art.

James Williams [00:05:12]:
So almost everything we call martial arts now involve engagement and reciprocity. And almost all of them are based on, are sport based of some kind. It may be violent sports.

James Williams [00:05:22]:
Right.

James Williams [00:05:24]:
The problem when you have lethality is engagement, reciprocity is that it's, it's, there's a. The risk factor really climbs.

James Williams [00:05:35]:
Ih killing in ancient Japan was common.

James Williams [00:05:40]:
Because you've got two people standing 6, 7, 8ft apart with 30 inches of steel and.

James Williams [00:05:45]:
Yeah.

James Williams [00:05:46]:
And you know, and even those swords, catastrophic, you know, doesn't necessarily stop the.

James Williams [00:05:52]:
Other person in the moment.

James Williams [00:05:54]:
Right.

James Williams [00:05:54]:
And knives especially. A lot of times it just feels like a bumper. You don't even know until afterwards, you know, what's, what's going on and even shooting people. And ask anybody. It was in 93 in the battle of the Black Sea in Somalia. Black Hawk down, the movie in the.

James Williams [00:06:10]:
Book, you know, they were using green.

James Williams [00:06:12]:
Tip, you know, bang pop, right? And people shooting back and they're like hitting them because it's just penetrating through, right? Those guys have changed. They're using different ammo. That was. That was a call from people in logistics. We have a lot of this because.

James Williams [00:06:29]:
The Russians do not come from full. So here's a whole bunch of ammo.

James Williams [00:06:32]:
Problem is that ammo is not designed for what we're doing. Didn't work very well. But anyway, so. So working into systems that were designed not to have engagement reciprocity started right around 1980. I'd done stuff with Aikido, but I wouldn't consider that a martial art before.

Bob DeMarco [00:06:58]:
We continue, because I want to hear about this engagement reciprocity concept. But you mentioned a whole bunch of different martial arts. And I know a lot of us know you from your knife design. We may assume your. Your various designs from knives. We may assume that you're very heavily steeped in the Japanese fighting systems. But you mentioned all these different fighting systems. You mentioned Russian, Filipino, Chinese.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:23]:
What is the through line? We all have the same human body. What's the through line between all?

James Williams [00:07:30]:
So the thing that makes the biggest.

James Williams [00:07:32]:
Difference is the operating system.

James Williams [00:07:36]:
And where I found that first time that I found that was in Yanagiri with Anjei Sensei, who inherited that from Yoshikenji Sensei, the son of Yokita Kotaro Yota Kotaro is well known.

James Williams [00:07:50]:
And.

James Williams [00:07:52]:
Yoshikenji came over here just before the Second World War and then was interned in a camp.

James Williams [00:07:59]:
Due to war.

James Williams [00:08:00]:
Camp Topaz. I mean, got out just as things.

James Williams [00:08:03]:
Were turning in the war, but he.

James Williams [00:08:05]:
Had to go to the east coast. And that's why I'm Jason met him. And so that was my first look into a different psycho, A whole different strategy of engagement because everything else had been engagement of reciprocity blocks and all kinds of stuff. Although I have to say the Filipino.

James Williams [00:08:26]:
System, Dosi Pares and Omen Kenyete was really slick.

James Williams [00:08:30]:
Much, much, much different. I've trained with Lenny Perses Priestess personally, but that kind of stuff back and forth.

James Williams [00:08:36]:
That's not Little Man Yeti did.

James Williams [00:08:38]:
I guess I can tell that story though.

James Williams [00:08:40]:
Everybody's dead.

James Williams [00:08:42]:
So Frank was over there, late 70s. He actually had a house in the Philippines.

James Williams [00:08:49]:
And so he's.

James Williams [00:08:50]:
They were out. They were out in the bush, out in the jungle.

James Williams [00:08:53]:
And they were having this whole little.

James Williams [00:08:55]:
Competition going on and old man Can Yeti was kicking everybody's ass. And so Frank's talking to Remedy, says, hey, you need to go fight this guy.

James Williams [00:09:03]:
And he's like, do you want to do it?

James Williams [00:09:04]:
So Frank said, I'll go fight him. This was typical of Frank, right? Did it with Bobo, Olsen got in the ring with Bobo, found out I don't know how to box. I'm an 8 degree or a 6.

James Williams [00:09:12]:
Degree, and dogs are going to know.

James Williams [00:09:14]:
How to box anyway. And so, you know, old man kicked his ass. And so I came back and said, no, he's my teacher now.

James Williams [00:09:23]:
You wouldn't even fight him.

James Williams [00:09:25]:
And so we changed what we were doing with the.

James Williams [00:09:27]:
With our niece into the dosupadis.

James Williams [00:09:30]:
And that was way slicker. Not the clanging, bashing, lot of, lot.

James Williams [00:09:35]:
Lot more sophisticated movement that made a.

James Williams [00:09:37]:
Lot more sense in the moment if you have. If you have an edge weapon. And so, so that was kind of a little look, but I wasn't ready for it. So psychologically at the time. I actually went by on J. Sensei's dojo in 1969 because I had a Cuban girlfriend that just escaped Castro, actually, and she lived out in part of la that was close to where he had done them. Were driving by and saying, ancient samurai martial arts. I didn't see that again until 1980.

James Williams [00:10:10]:
Right.

James Williams [00:10:11]:
So. But it took me a while to.

James Williams [00:10:14]:
You know, realized that there were some other things out there. I came back and got involved with aikido from a gentleman I'd known before who was Marine Pacific Campaign, badly wounded in Guadalcanal, also was a Marine amateur boxing champion. And I just realized they didn't have anything that could even do anything against someone like me. What are we going to do with something else?

James Williams [00:10:41]:
Right.

James Williams [00:10:41]:
I'd had way too much experience at that point in time.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:45]:
And so you're talking about Aikido had nothing.

James Williams [00:10:48]:
Yeah, yeah. There was just nothing there in the process. And they kept talking about this, but it wasn't something that they could make work.

James Williams [00:10:57]:
Right.

James Williams [00:10:57]:
Not on someone like me. Now at that point, I wrestled. Coach wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, different styles of karate, Filipino arts, stuff that happened and other, other things that were not organized, shall we say. And so, you know, and I'm not a small person. And so one day just got frustrated.

James Williams [00:11:22]:
With me and he pointed to this.

James Williams [00:11:23]:
Guy that used to work out in the back of the. Of the dojo was a cafeteria at the University of California, San Diego. And So I started, started training with him, who was a student adjacent, one of the instructors. And I realized, oh, this is the stuff they actually used for war.

James Williams [00:11:44]:
It's really different, right?

James Williams [00:11:45]:
And so, so I started on that path.

James Williams [00:11:49]:
Still did other things.

James Williams [00:11:52]:
I remember I heard Mitchumashta, which is probably good too. Hadn't been in contact with him a long time. Heard about the Gracies, let my brother in law know. We met Rusty in college.

James Williams [00:12:05]:
We.

James Williams [00:12:07]:
We got a fight on the mat.

James Williams [00:12:08]:
He had butted me.

James Williams [00:12:09]:
He said I had buttoned for us, but he's not true and got suspended for a week and became best friends. And later on I married his little sister, right? But I gave him. I said, hey, these guys are doing this, so why don't you go check it out, right? So, you know, after a few months I said, so what's the difference? He said, you got to come up, right? So I drove up there after one of Hunter's classes and rolled around with.

James Williams [00:12:30]:
Hodion and was like, oh, this is really different, okay.

James Williams [00:12:34]:
And so I started going up to the Gracies.

James Williams [00:12:36]:
I'd go up and train that when.

James Williams [00:12:37]:
You'Re not to be with Don Que Sensei. And then I'd go to. Then I'd go to the Gracie's afterwards. And my brother ended up becoming one of the Dirty Dozen, the first of the black belts, right? I think he's a fourth or fifth degree that he was fourth to be a long time ago and had my boys do that, which is a lot of fun. So I've just always, if there's something.

James Williams [00:13:02]:
New to learn, I want to see.

James Williams [00:13:05]:
What'S the value in it, right? And grappling is really valuable. It's just not an efficient way to.

James Williams [00:13:13]:
Solve problems, especially when you get in the big world. What do you mean?

James Williams [00:13:17]:
What do you mean? Well, so say what we call everybody.

James Williams [00:13:23]:
Thinks jujitsu now they think Brazilian Jiu.

James Williams [00:13:25]:
Jitsu, which is the Ne Waza and Katame Waza of Jiu Jitsu ground grappling techniques from Jiu Jitsu styles. It's more, it's more the ground grappling part of modern judo because you've taken out all the stri. All the other things that are involved in all that. Because you know, kenjutsu is the omote, right? And if kenjutsu is the omote in Jiu Jitsu's order. So a lot of those things happened.

James Williams [00:13:50]:
When you had swords in the moment.

James Williams [00:13:51]:
You cut close together or something, you had to do something. But it couldn't be, you know, it.

James Williams [00:13:57]:
Couldn'T be grabbing somebody, rolling around, you.

James Williams [00:14:00]:
Know, when they're carrying multiple other tools. You've got multiple other opponents.

James Williams [00:14:05]:
Right.

James Williams [00:14:06]:
That doesn't mean it's not. Doesn't have value. I start.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:09]:
You're avoiding going to the ground. You got your swords locked up. You can't just roll the.

James Williams [00:14:13]:
Yeah, so. So all kinds of little stripes, all.

James Williams [00:14:16]:
Kinds of little floor. All kinds of things meet up that part.

James Williams [00:14:20]:
Right.

James Williams [00:14:21]:
So you take all of that stuff out.

James Williams [00:14:24]:
Even some of the reverse hand techniques, you know, like from. I could do jitsu and stuff like that.

James Williams [00:14:28]:
And then the catching horse and a couple things. Oh, no, that's. You can't do that. Okay. I just want to see if it work.

James Williams [00:14:33]:
Right.

James Williams [00:14:34]:
But you know, that doesn't mean it.

James Williams [00:14:36]:
Doesn'T have value because the only way you could actually get a lot of time and be used to people and.

James Williams [00:14:39]:
Relaxing and seeing things is if there's not a lot of consequence. It's just that now people start thinking.

James Williams [00:14:47]:
That that's something used.

James Williams [00:14:49]:
I mean, it's even taught at some of the special operations places here. Like that's. And it's not how to solve problems there. So the reason I spent time going out there was because there was people out there that realized that this is not a solution for us in the environments that we're in.

James Williams [00:15:06]:
So those, those words Japanese are really the Germans. I always say the Germans are the oriental race.

James Williams [00:15:12]:
Their trains are so much on time.

James Williams [00:15:14]:
If your train's 45 second early, don't get on it.

James Williams [00:15:17]:
It's not your train.

James Williams [00:15:19]:
I know.

James Williams [00:15:20]:
I was two stops when I realized.

James Williams [00:15:22]:
This isn't my train.

James Williams [00:15:23]:
Right.

James Williams [00:15:24]:
I had to go back.

James Williams [00:15:27]:
But their languages are not as specific with their language where German based English is. You know, we're very precise, much more precise. So you know, bunjutsu, they. They kind of brush terms back and.

James Williams [00:15:40]:
Forth quite a bit.

James Williams [00:15:42]:
So, you know, modern jiu jitsu is a doe art, basically.

James Williams [00:15:46]:
Okay.

Bob DeMarco [00:15:47]:
You know, dough meaning art, not the combative.

James Williams [00:15:50]:
Yeah, yeah. It doesn't mean.

James Williams [00:15:51]:
It doesn't mean war in that sense way.

James Williams [00:15:54]:
Right.

James Williams [00:15:55]:
Versus jutsu.

James Williams [00:15:57]:
But they, they blur it a lot themselves. So I'm not. Not Chris. I'm sure that was called, you know, jiu jitsu at the time, but it's just that taken out all kinds of stuff and, you know, and the operating system has changed enormously as well because you now have little point system and you have time. So even the Gracies in the early days, those things might take 20 minutes.

James Williams [00:16:21]:
Yeah, right.

James Williams [00:16:22]:
You know, you went until somebody Got a submission. Otherwise it's like, what's the big deal?

Bob DeMarco [00:16:27]:
So more of a chess match than a death match in that way, for.

James Williams [00:16:31]:
That kind of stuff.

James Williams [00:16:33]:
Right.

James Williams [00:16:33]:
In Dixon, when you fight, you know.

James Williams [00:16:36]:
You just have a couple of guys with them. So you keep people away. Well, you can't always do that. If they have tools, that changes things a lot. I mean, there's so many factors that.

James Williams [00:16:44]:
Come involved in that. And so, you know, Mars is, I.

James Williams [00:16:49]:
Would say Mars is the God of war. War is about killing people and breaking shit. It's done with tools, arts, ability, your opponent without having them do it to you. So going back and forth like a.

James Williams [00:17:00]:
Firefight, there's no art, There might be skill, right?

James Williams [00:17:04]:
So some of the guys I worked.

James Williams [00:17:05]:
With, the art, they're just hunting down. And probably one to one, they killed.

James Williams [00:17:10]:
That small group of men, killed way.

James Williams [00:17:13]:
More people than any of the presence.

James Williams [00:17:14]:
Patrols or any of that kind of stuff did. Most time those guys get in firefight, cast or indirect fire, come in and close air support and really help with the situation. Shall we say those guys hunted. They go in, they hunt. That's all they do for the time they're there.

James Williams [00:17:32]:
And they go from, this is not.

James Williams [00:17:36]:
Yeah, they'll go. If they'll hit a target and then they'll get the info and hit another one, and then another one, maybe two or three more in the night. So they're not working with engagement. Nobody knows ahead of time what they're doing, you know, and so they're catching everybody by surprise.

James Williams [00:17:53]:
Right?

James Williams [00:17:53]:
I mean, your job is to take.

James Williams [00:17:54]:
Out specific people, it's not to get in. Right, right.

James Williams [00:17:57]:
So. So when you're looking at the highest level samurai, very much like that, except you'll see each other.

James Williams [00:18:06]:
Right.

James Williams [00:18:07]:
So what you're doing is you're managing yourself in a completely different way than like the way I used to win fights a long time ago. Busted hands and $10,600 worth of teeth.

James Williams [00:18:23]:
A couple of years ago I didn't.

James Williams [00:18:24]:
Put them all back, but I had.

James Williams [00:18:25]:
To put enough of them back so I could teeth properly.

James Williams [00:18:28]:
You know, I can't do, unfortunately, I can't do anything about the brain cells.

James Williams [00:18:32]:
So.

James Williams [00:18:33]:
But yeah, it's. It's not leverage based, not strength based.

James Williams [00:18:40]:
You. And people say, well, where, where do.

James Williams [00:18:42]:
You get the energy and stuff like striking Yukal? Robco is very good at this, by the way. By the way, Systemo is very interesting for me.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:48]:
Systema. Russian system.

James Williams [00:18:50]:
Yeah, yeah, systema. And I see a lot of people.

James Williams [00:18:52]:
Saying, oh, they Blow it off. But, you know, I've been under that fist, you know, I've got pictures of me all bruised up and everything.

James Williams [00:18:57]:
I, I went to Russia, you know, 9, 11, you know, I'm supposed to be, you're supposed to be there that month, but you had to be a couple more months. You couldn't get a thing. So I literally, I'd seen a thing at Toby Threadbills in Texas. They had this video, this Russian guy, you know, doing stuff and kind of making fun of it. And I'm like looking at it and I'm thinking, where'd the Russians get this? After about 10 minutes ago, no, guys, this guy's good. And I think they're really good. So I gotta find this guy.

James Williams [00:19:29]:
So, so I ended up going up.

James Williams [00:19:31]:
To Toronto and then going to Russia times and in training with them. And, and it's just a very, very different operating system. It's really odd to me that you get.

James Williams [00:19:43]:
The only thing that makes it make sense is they're both sword based arts.

James Williams [00:19:48]:
Really.

James Williams [00:19:49]:
Systema system is a sword based art. I've got pictures of me, you know, with sailor's nisha knight down in his basement.

James Williams [00:19:56]:
Right.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:57]:
Let me tell you my, my impression just from the videos I've seen online, it looks like magic. And, and, and to me, you know, I wanted to get back to this engagement and reciprocity concept. To me that looks like the ultimate expression of that. But, but I also know that it's used and that people like yourself, like actually have learned to functionalize it and, and use it. Tell me, let, let's go to the engagement and reciprocity concept and break it out.

James Williams [00:20:27]:
Okay, different.

James Williams [00:20:28]:
So, so there's a fundamental concept in high level tendency called uto nashi no kata.

James Williams [00:20:34]:
Okay. And that means silent victory. No touching the blades. Okay, so here we are.

James Williams [00:20:40]:
You've got some nice background. Here we are.

James Williams [00:20:43]:
My job is to cut you down without touching your blade or having touch mine or if we do, it's in the same movement called Kubrick.

James Williams [00:20:51]:
No, no, no. Separation between packing, defense.

James Williams [00:20:56]:
Okay, so how are you going to do that?

James Williams [00:20:59]:
Right?

James Williams [00:21:00]:
You guys good at lots of, you know, all this and, but this is a completely different thing. I can't use that operating system. So how can I hide movement?

James Williams [00:21:12]:
Right?

James Williams [00:21:13]:
Because the origin of movement and stuff, including the origin in your mind, especially.

James Williams [00:21:18]:
Where your mind is, can be perceptible to people.

James Williams [00:21:22]:
Right?

James Williams [00:21:22]:
Well, how do you hide that? Okay, well, first you have to start turning all that flexing and all that stuff off and that Is a process, right? And so I've sometimes played. Actually one of my students brought this.

James Williams [00:21:38]:
In my dojo in California, which is two blocks from the beach, right on the surfer.

James Williams [00:21:41]:
And it was, it was from a movie.

James Williams [00:21:43]:
I can't remember the name of it.

James Williams [00:21:44]:
But guy is kind of wanted to go surfing. And so it's this guy who called himself Kunu, right? And he's like, don't, don't do anything.

James Williams [00:21:54]:
Don't do it.

James Williams [00:21:55]:
Don't try to surf, right?

James Williams [00:21:56]:
That's a whole little monologue on time. Because I'm constantly telling, no, you can't do that. You can't flex muscle, do this.

James Williams [00:22:04]:
If I'm raising this up, I can't use these muscles in the process, right? And you literally get to where like if someone's.

James Williams [00:22:12]:
If I'm holding the hand out like this, right, you can feel if I.

James Williams [00:22:17]:
If I'm using my anterior belt and.

James Williams [00:22:19]:
Trying to do that.

James Williams [00:22:20]:
If I don't, instead of the pressure.

James Williams [00:22:22]:
Going here to here into your base.

James Williams [00:22:24]:
It ticks you, right?

James Williams [00:22:27]:
And so.

James Williams [00:22:28]:
And it's like a push versus a reach. If I push, do all that kind of stuff, if I flex, right?

James Williams [00:22:35]:
It goes to your feet.

James Williams [00:22:36]:
And so now we have a contest. If I reach, it doesn't go to your feet and you can't access them and remove, right? And why was that important? When I cut you with the sword.

James Williams [00:22:47]:
I need to called Kuyushi.

James Williams [00:22:48]:
I need to gather unbalance you with the cut. Because if I don't and we're both.

James Williams [00:22:55]:
Moving well, what are the chances of me getting stabbed? Those swords do a lot of damage fast.

James Williams [00:23:02]:
Didn't have lifelight blood. Like, you know, you might, you might.

James Williams [00:23:07]:
Bleed out slower than the other guy. But, but, but the bottom line is so. Well, so how do you do that?

James Williams [00:23:13]:
Because so that you can hold different study for them.

James Williams [00:23:17]:
It's like punching when people see Misha hardly knew.

James Williams [00:23:21]:
I can tell you. And I've got pictures. First day in Russia, I'm bruised all up, right? And it's like because, because you're using.

James Williams [00:23:31]:
A different operating system.

James Williams [00:23:33]:
So at this point, when I'm teaching students, you've got your fear based fight flight and against the operating system. Then you've got what I call a faith based operating system. Okay. So we're actually all living by faith.

James Williams [00:23:45]:
Every moment of every day.

James Williams [00:23:47]:
Even you, Dick Dawkins. Your logic is there's a thing that came on who's called himself a cultural Christian. He was lamenting what was happening and everything. And I'm like Get a podcast out of Austrian Obseania. Your logic here is as bad as your science, right? Anyway, so.

James Williams [00:24:08]:
You have gravity.

James Williams [00:24:11]:
And you have mass. And any movement then is going to.

James Williams [00:24:16]:
Mean there's energy there.

James Williams [00:24:18]:
I don't have to flex to make it happen. On the contrary, if I flex, I can take away. So like in my garage, I have my workout stuff in my garage. I've got a 100 pound kettlebell. You know, I can actually let it go and bend down, touch the floor faster than it can get there. But when that hits the ground, £100 like that, you're thinking, I don't drop it on my concrete in my garage. I think it'll crack the concrete, right? Well, what if you could take and use velocity and use that mass instead of all the flexing, pushing, you know, Bubble used to kick us in the calf. So that's your punching muscle and you can just let that go like that.

James Williams [00:24:55]:
And it all transferred all that energy, right?

James Williams [00:24:58]:
Well, oh, that's, that's a huge amount of energy, right? And so once you feel that, you.

James Williams [00:25:04]:
Realize, man, how do you get, how do you get to be able to do that? Well, you have to quit doing. You have to quit doing it in the sense of I've got to do it. And it's the same with the cut.

James Williams [00:25:15]:
It's the same with all of that stuff, right?

James Williams [00:25:18]:
And so, so and, and the more I process all figures how it works.

James Williams [00:25:25]:
And everything when I'm teaching.

James Williams [00:25:28]:
Ky told me this years and years ago. He said o. His grandfather, he said, grandfather got faster as he got older. Well, I'm, I'm taking less time now that I'm older, you know, and I'm closing in on 80 year, right. I'm not a young person, so, so but because I'm not using all of the reflexes and stuff to do that, it's a different connection. And when you actually tie everything into.

James Williams [00:25:59]:
Your center of movement, right?

James Williams [00:26:01]:
You actually tie everything into your center of movement. And all you have to do is.

James Williams [00:26:06]:
Move that like maybe back three inches.

James Williams [00:26:09]:
Hit back three inches and this takes place, right? Well, there's none of you doing any of that.

James Williams [00:26:14]:
There's no little things happening.

James Williams [00:26:16]:
It's like it's all connected as this rotates.

James Williams [00:26:19]:
This rotates. I don't rotate it separately.

James Williams [00:26:22]:
So you spend all this time taking away things that actually got in the way.

James Williams [00:26:25]:
What does that or what?

Bob DeMarco [00:26:28]:
Yeah, yeah.

James Williams [00:26:28]:
Psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, right.

James Williams [00:26:31]:
You know, I keep looking at that guy in the mirror, you don't listen that you're the problem, I mean that's.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:37]:
The same in all sort of creative pursuits. Just eliminating the stuff that's not getting.

James Williams [00:26:41]:
Yourself out of the way. All of your stuff, Right.

James Williams [00:26:45]:
All of your, all your fear based stuff. Because the fight flight is a fear based mechanism.

James Williams [00:26:51]:
Right.

James Williams [00:26:51]:
And now can you use it? Sure. Is it best?

James Williams [00:26:54]:
No.

James Williams [00:26:55]:
The more you use it, especially in some situations, the more feedback you get as well, more ptsd, you're going to end up with some stuff as well.

Bob DeMarco [00:27:05]:
So is this where the faith part comes in? You mentioned faith based operations.

James Williams [00:27:09]:
So we'll start with just the physical faith, right. I mean if I pick up a knife, imagine you just having a knife laying around and I let go of it.

James Williams [00:27:20]:
Do you believe it's going to drop or do you know it's going to drop?

Bob DeMarco [00:27:23]:
Yeah, I know it's going to drop.

James Williams [00:27:25]:
Okay.

James Williams [00:27:25]:
And you even know why? Because of gravity.

James Williams [00:27:29]:
But we don't even know what gravity is.

James Williams [00:27:32]:
We don't know what gravity is. Science, it doesn't know what gravity is. We know it does, but we know it is.

James Williams [00:27:36]:
Yeah.

James Williams [00:27:37]:
Okay. And so you know, oxygen transfer, how often do you wake from the near life form? What if oxygen transfer didn't take place?

James Williams [00:27:47]:
But I mean, think about it.

James Williams [00:27:49]:
Right? Right.

James Williams [00:27:49]:
But you know, this special little place.

James Williams [00:27:52]:
That has these things like this that we can. All of this, it's like you don't.

James Williams [00:27:57]:
Even think about it, but yet that's how it is. So this is like that realizing one, I weigh 200 and some pounds. And you know, if I could just.

James Williams [00:28:07]:
Release half of that with a little.

James Williams [00:28:11]:
Bit of velocity, certainly I can have.

James Williams [00:28:14]:
More velocity than drop my 100 pound.

James Williams [00:28:15]:
Kettlebell and can let it transfer.

James Williams [00:28:20]:
Right.

James Williams [00:28:20]:
Well, that's a whole nother thing altogether.

James Williams [00:28:23]:
And the feeling of the people, you.

James Williams [00:28:25]:
Know, I'll reach out and pop in.

James Williams [00:28:26]:
I'll move somebody back feet, right.

James Williams [00:28:28]:
And it's like fool. But it doesn't look like much.

James Williams [00:28:31]:
And it's not. Bruce Lee, he was pushing with his calf.

James Williams [00:28:34]:
He was an athlete.

James Williams [00:28:34]:
He didn't understand this stuff. Okay.

James Williams [00:28:37]:
It's a completely different thing.

James Williams [00:28:39]:
I can do it with one leg, if you will.

James Williams [00:28:40]:
It doesn't matter because you're allowing all.

James Williams [00:28:42]:
Of that to happen and still kind of make it happen. Okay.

James Williams [00:28:47]:
And so, and this isn't a really.

James Williams [00:28:50]:
Good analogy, but if you're shooting, if you're, if you're trying to make that.

James Williams [00:28:53]:
Gun work, it's not going to be very accurate. You've got to let it work. You got to ride the recoil.

James Williams [00:28:59]:
Even if it's really rapid.

James Williams [00:29:00]:
Got to manage the trigger and the trigger reset.

James Williams [00:29:02]:
Right.

James Williams [00:29:03]:
All of these things. And the calmer you can be.

James Williams [00:29:06]:
Right.

James Williams [00:29:07]:
The better you are. And so and, and the no thinking part. We talked about that. It's not that there is a stuff.

James Williams [00:29:14]:
Going through your mind, but it's not connected to what you're doing.

James Williams [00:29:18]:
My warrior son say you think in.

James Williams [00:29:19]:
That environment you're dead.

James Williams [00:29:21]:
And another one of my friends who is a sergeant major, he's getting out as well. Got his stinger circus cross. Probably should have been a medal of Honor. It may even get so. But he's coming through a gate in Afghanistan years ago.

James Williams [00:29:36]:
Right.

James Williams [00:29:36]:
And, and so there's big mud wall.

James Williams [00:29:40]:
I don't know if you've ever seen big mud walled compounds.

James Williams [00:29:43]:
So we call those things fatal funnels because you're only coming through one place. Right.

James Williams [00:29:48]:
So anybody inside knows you've got to.

James Williams [00:29:51]:
So he breaches that and there's three guys up on in three seconds. But 23 rounds on him. All sent.

James Williams [00:30:00]:
All.

James Williams [00:30:00]:
No, no automatic fire.

James Williams [00:30:02]:
Eight. Eight. Slight hesitation with in children. Seven. Okay. Just like that. And it's like what was going on in his brain.

James Williams [00:30:11]:
He's a close friend. It's going on in his brain.

James Williams [00:30:14]:
Takes way longer to tell than what he actually did.

James Williams [00:30:19]:
You can tell you where every bullet.

James Williams [00:30:20]:
Hit in the process.

James Williams [00:30:22]:
Right.

James Williams [00:30:23]:
And so you get into that state and these are special people. So when I was out there for.

James Williams [00:30:29]:
The Distinguished Service Cross, you years ago.

James Williams [00:30:32]:
They'D had 50 people make it through. They call it the long walk.

James Williams [00:30:36]:
Right.

James Williams [00:30:36]:
That's. That's the physical selection. I think they took three after the psycho.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:41]:
Oh this is this Delta. Delta Force.

James Williams [00:30:44]:
Something, something like that.

James Williams [00:30:45]:
I'm not going to use that word myself.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:48]:
I've heard of this long walk though.

James Williams [00:30:50]:
Yeah.

James Williams [00:30:50]:
Yeah. So a lot of that information's out there.

James Williams [00:30:52]:
But again everything else.

James Williams [00:30:55]:
So.

James Williams [00:30:55]:
Okay.

James Williams [00:30:55]:
But you guys know.

James Williams [00:30:56]:
Okay.

James Williams [00:30:56]:
So I mean, I mean and then.

James Williams [00:30:58]:
You'Ve got six months of OTC operating training course and you can still fail that.

James Williams [00:31:04]:
So you think they never have full.

James Williams [00:31:06]:
Group of people which isn't very many.

James Williams [00:31:09]:
Right.

James Williams [00:31:09]:
So we're, we're talking about very, very, very special people. So. But we were at the Ring actually.

James Williams [00:31:17]:
A couple years ago and said no.

James Williams [00:31:18]:
I think I've shot a million rounds.

James Williams [00:31:23]:
Well, practice, practice, practice.

James Williams [00:31:24]:
Right. Yes. Yeah.

James Williams [00:31:26]:
So.

James Williams [00:31:27]:
But anyway, so the point of the moment of this, I can't be thinking.

James Williams [00:31:30]:
But yet by not thinking, like not having tension, I become so much more aware of all the things that I.

James Williams [00:31:40]:
Can'T Be when my brain's going.

James Williams [00:31:43]:
So the calmer I get it. So the Japanese have a couple words for that. One is water. So kokoro's like spirit, but it's like, like still water, like a mirror, right. The other one is mushin. No mind, no thinking, conscious mind at that point. Like you've been hunting, you know. And I'm not talking about priest dance, that's harvesting.

James Williams [00:32:09]:
Yeah, yeah.

James Williams [00:32:09]:
Hunting is when you're on the ground.

James Williams [00:32:11]:
With the animals, right?

James Williams [00:32:13]:
And especially depending on where you are, stingers, places, you know, you got to be like quiet, quiet. Open your mouth a little something that you're hearing better. You got to get quiet, quiet.

James Williams [00:32:22]:
When you move, you got to be.

James Williams [00:32:23]:
Really careful because then that movement is.

James Williams [00:32:24]:
Going to let them know what's happening, right?

James Williams [00:32:27]:
So the quieter I am, the more aware I become. Well, now you're in situations you want that same type of. Because you're going to tell me all kinds of things that I can hear. If I'm going through my own stuff, I can't hear, right. I've got too much background noise going.

James Williams [00:32:50]:
On that I can't hear or see.

James Williams [00:32:53]:
Kuro Sensor is really good at this. And so when I'm going with my senior students, whether I'm the uchidachi or the shidachi. So the shidachi is doing the Ryuha's technique and the Uchidachi is providing an attack. And usually it's a set attack, but later on changing from the beginning. Well, I went on either side, doesn't matter, right? And many times I'll move before they move.

James Williams [00:33:16]:
But they've already made the decision, so they're caught, right?

James Williams [00:33:20]:
Because as you get more and more, you don't realize what you're telling.

James Williams [00:33:26]:
Right?

James Williams [00:33:26]:
And so as you get clearer and.

James Williams [00:33:29]:
Clearer and you're doing less and less in every way, shape and form.

James Williams [00:33:34]:
Right?

James Williams [00:33:34]:
Well, you know when to move, right?

Bob DeMarco [00:33:37]:
Well, I was going to say this concept is something I'm instilling in my 15 year old daughter who I'm teaching how to drive. And when you're driving on the highway, you can sense micro movements from other cars. It's like you know what they're going to do before they do it.

James Williams [00:33:51]:
I'm just going through that with grandfather.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:53]:
Okay.

James Williams [00:33:53]:
So grandson now he's.

James Williams [00:33:56]:
Now he's out.

James Williams [00:33:56]:
He's got some female, he's got his own. But, but, but we were coming back, I was teaching in Asheville, Ashe role. And so, so coming up I said, what's wrong with that car? I said, look at that. Okay. And so sure enough, we pull up.

James Williams [00:34:12]:
Right.

James Williams [00:34:12]:
I said this is a lethal environment.

James Williams [00:34:16]:
Right.

James Williams [00:34:17]:
Half these people are barely competent. If they're paying attention.

James Williams [00:34:20]:
Yeah. And they're not these days. A whole lot of them are not.

James Williams [00:34:23]:
Paying any attention at all. Some of my business going through your head.

James Williams [00:34:26]:
So you've got to treat all of this and so you have to read them.

James Williams [00:34:29]:
Right.

James Williams [00:34:30]:
Like that family just got killed by the trucker coming through the stop sign. You know, I've got a granddaughter coming up and I'm going to start teaching her pretty soon.

James Williams [00:34:38]:
Right.

James Williams [00:34:38]:
And so it's like stop signs and stop lights do not stop cars.

James Williams [00:34:43]:
Right.

James Williams [00:34:43]:
They're a suggestion.

James Williams [00:34:45]:
So so constantly looking and looking before you even get to the intersection.

James Williams [00:34:50]:
Right.

James Williams [00:34:51]:
Because you want to know what's the situation on.

James Williams [00:34:53]:
What's the situation on the ground.

James Williams [00:34:54]:
It's like when people say, well, what.

James Williams [00:34:56]:
What would you do if somebody did this? I go, what's the context? What do you mean?

James Williams [00:35:00]:
So how's it day and night? Is it hot or cold? Is it wet or dry?

Bob DeMarco [00:35:05]:
Are we in an elevator or.

James Williams [00:35:07]:
Yeah, I mean, what. Because there is no answer like that. This context. Is everything a great thing for your daughter? Not hard, not easy to see.

James Williams [00:35:17]:
You don't have to let the situation happen.

James Williams [00:35:20]:
Charlotte, on the train.

James Williams [00:35:21]:
Yes. Yeah.

James Williams [00:35:22]:
Right.

James Williams [00:35:23]:
Now, Zach guy, should he have been out?

James Williams [00:35:26]:
Nope. You and I would have picked him up as soon as you walked on that train.

James Williams [00:35:30]:
Right.

James Williams [00:35:31]:
She did not take responsibility for any of it. She was in her own little world and completely right. And so does that make it right or in?

James Williams [00:35:42]:
No, but the personal responsibility part, there's.

James Williams [00:35:46]:
No would be, should be, could be world.

James Williams [00:35:48]:
If you're not paying attention, you're going.

James Williams [00:35:50]:
To pay the price. Whatever that happens to be.

James Williams [00:35:53]:
You have to be too long, you get sunb.

James Williams [00:35:55]:
Right.

James Williams [00:35:56]:
Whatever it happens to be.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:57]:
No doubt she was breathing a sigh of relief, living in the United States, getting away from the war in Ukraine. But that sigh of, you know, but let me ask you this.

James Williams [00:36:06]:
Sure.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:07]:
So as I mentioned up front, you've taught, you've taught to a lot of people these kind of fighting, different ways to approach close quarters combat. Some are very, very special, but I can't imagine all of them are.

James Williams [00:36:22]:
How do you.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:22]:
In a short time, they don't have a lot of time to learn this.

James Williams [00:36:25]:
Yeah.

James Williams [00:36:25]:
So.

James Williams [00:36:25]:
So that, how do you instill this?

James Williams [00:36:27]:
There's the dilemma.

James Williams [00:36:28]:
And so I, I start with things like you're managing three factors, distance and relationship time.

James Williams [00:36:36]:
Okay.

James Williams [00:36:37]:
So distance depends on what, what Environment, what tools, but we're still managing those.

James Williams [00:36:43]:
Things, whether we're doing the entry, whatever.

James Williams [00:36:45]:
It has to do, right?

James Williams [00:36:47]:
And so when we're doing. And you talk about this last one.

James Williams [00:36:51]:
If, if, if a person's reaching, pushing, shoving, stabbing or hitting, right?

James Williams [00:36:56]:
They're.

James Williams [00:36:57]:
They're looking with one direction and they're.

James Williams [00:36:58]:
Coming off of the base of a triangle.

James Williams [00:37:01]:
Okay. Well, if you're coming off this basic.

James Williams [00:37:05]:
Triangle, I release my left hip a little bit.

James Williams [00:37:08]:
I can pass you right by me. You're still moving, right.

James Williams [00:37:12]:
It's not a block. And I have an opportunity in there to do something.

James Williams [00:37:17]:
Right.

James Williams [00:37:18]:
Whether it's a takedown, whether it's a strike, whether it's a stab, whether.

James Williams [00:37:21]:
Whatever it happens to be.

James Williams [00:37:23]:
Okay?

James Williams [00:37:24]:
And so what you start learning to.

James Williams [00:37:25]:
Do is, and I call it field geometry, but don't look it up. They'll talk about hydraulics. People say, well, but this is changing. Well, yes, but I can perceive the change and I just release. And all I have to do is.

James Williams [00:37:37]:
Release my body here and it changes the relationship between.

James Williams [00:37:41]:
So I start with that.

James Williams [00:37:42]:
Right?

James Williams [00:37:43]:
Because the person's going to give you.

James Williams [00:37:45]:
Opportunity if you just let them. So we be very kind and let.

James Williams [00:37:49]:
Them have their opportunity before we show them the error of their ways. And so, you know, with swords, it's the same thing. We talk about the SATs.

James Williams [00:37:58]:
You can't be banging.

James Williams [00:38:00]:
You can't be banging and cracking together. I mean, everybody tries their way. Western surgeon, you have this type of.

James Williams [00:38:05]:
Way of trying to, you know, forge and heat trade.

James Williams [00:38:08]:
Japanese had their particular way of forging.

James Williams [00:38:11]:
Hate trading and doing stuff.

James Williams [00:38:12]:
But the bottom line is long, thin.

James Williams [00:38:14]:
Pieces of hard sphere, chip, crack and brick.

James Williams [00:38:16]:
Yep. Start cracking them against each other, and.

James Williams [00:38:19]:
You'Re going to chip, crack and break the sword.

James Williams [00:38:21]:
And you can read, like, Japanese stuff.

James Williams [00:38:23]:
You can read.

James Williams [00:38:23]:
Guys always a fight at the Terra Dia. The terra in one guy, sword broke.

James Williams [00:38:27]:
And he was killed.

James Williams [00:38:28]:
Right.

James Williams [00:38:28]:
Bad idea to be in a sword fight with a sword that's, you know, looks good in the movies, doesn't work very well.

James Williams [00:38:34]:
Right.

James Williams [00:38:35]:
Unless the script gets written out first.

James Williams [00:38:37]:
So. So you can't be doing that. But also, the longer you take to.

James Williams [00:38:43]:
Serenity, the more that happens, the more.

James Williams [00:38:46]:
Time and the more movement, the entropy.

James Williams [00:38:49]:
Starts climbing like nobody's business.

James Williams [00:38:51]:
Right.

James Williams [00:38:52]:
If there's not much time and not.

James Williams [00:38:54]:
Much that you did, it's pretty easy to manage and predict an outcome.

James Williams [00:38:57]:
The more that it's going, the less.

James Williams [00:38:58]:
You can do that.

James Williams [00:39:00]:
Now get in situations where the situation is chaotic and you've got to just surf the waves of chaos and be able to pick those things out, which is right. A surfer does.

James Williams [00:39:11]:
Right.

James Williams [00:39:11]:
You got oceans out there. It's not, it's not chaotic anymore. Usually by the time it gets there, depending, but you're just, you're just watching and reading that particular situation, given all the factors and, and using that in a moment. And so you have to be able.

James Williams [00:39:25]:
To not try to control everything, but flow through there in the process and.

James Williams [00:39:30]:
Be able to adapt and respond. Because you don't know. I spend, when I go to the range, I spend time.

James Williams [00:39:37]:
I'll shoot right handed, right.

James Williams [00:39:38]:
Like maybe I'm just doing plates for a while. So I'll go right handed, right eye.

James Williams [00:39:42]:
And I'll switch and I'll go left.

James Williams [00:39:43]:
Handed, left eye, right, right hand, left, left hand and I'll switch back and forth. I'll take the left hand this way and the right hand this way. Then maybe one handed, flashlight and stuff so I can shoot. So if I come up left eye or right eye, it automatically goes to that without me having to close my eyes. Now that took training.

James Williams [00:40:00]:
Yeah, right.

James Williams [00:40:01]:
But a long time ago.

James Williams [00:40:06]:
I'm getting old.

James Williams [00:40:09]:
Learning that cornering right handed on left handed cornering is not a good idea.

James Williams [00:40:15]:
There's no way that you can do that as efficiently as you can switch.

James Williams [00:40:20]:
There's just no way.

James Williams [00:40:22]:
You give them an eyeball on a barrel that's almost nothing. You give them, you know, to a third of your upper body and they can see you coming around before it happens.

James Williams [00:40:31]:
Right.

James Williams [00:40:32]:
And especially in situations where the walls.

James Williams [00:40:35]:
Won'T stop the bullets.

James Williams [00:40:36]:
And that's a whole lot of situations. Yeah, most situations, my house, they won't stop the bullets.

James Williams [00:40:42]:
Right.

James Williams [00:40:42]:
Now you get in Iraq and Afghanistan, there's places where a lot of those things stop bullets.

James Williams [00:40:46]:
But our houses don't tend to stop bullets.

James Williams [00:40:48]:
Yeah, right.

James Williams [00:40:49]:
And so when I'm doing that, it's not only that, you know, I don't want to be in target. I don't want you to see anything.

James Williams [00:40:56]:
Until I've got everything on them.

James Williams [00:40:58]:
Right.

James Williams [00:40:59]:
By the time they see me, I'm already, I'm already on the trigger because my.

James Williams [00:41:03]:
It's a barrel on an eyeball.

James Williams [00:41:05]:
Right.

James Williams [00:41:05]:
Or light barrel and eyeball. And so, so what, what you're doing.

James Williams [00:41:11]:
With all of this is you're the.

James Williams [00:41:12]:
Same with the sword.

James Williams [00:41:13]:
There's going to be a path of travel. I can perceive it.

James Williams [00:41:16]:
What's the timing of me perceiving it and making it so that you can't see that I'm not in the lineup for the cut, but he's in mine, okay? And I think we did this a little bit last time.

James Williams [00:41:29]:
So you move a hand like this towards the person. You need a hand like this towards the person in the moment, they can't see the difference.

James Williams [00:41:36]:
One, when you're moving from out here.

James Williams [00:41:38]:
Okay, that's easily seen, and that path of travel is easily blocked.

James Williams [00:41:42]:
You move from back here.

James Williams [00:41:43]:
So I'm moving away from my. I'm literally flexing my rhomboids moment.

James Williams [00:41:46]:
So right now, when I'm sitting here, I'm flexing my rhomboids, I'm moving my scapula, left scapula, right scapula, moving them up the levator. Scapula, the muscle tattoo top.

James Williams [00:41:57]:
Okay?

James Williams [00:41:58]:
And you teach yourself.

James Williams [00:41:59]:
You teach yourself how to do this. Did you ever read Dune?

James Williams [00:42:02]:
No.

Bob DeMarco [00:42:03]:
My wife is a huge fan of.

James Williams [00:42:04]:
The books, but read Dune. I told you last time to read Gates of Fire. Did you end up reading it?

Bob DeMarco [00:42:08]:
No, I didn't.

James Williams [00:42:09]:
Oh, you got to listen at the building. Bigfoot has had a huge impact on.

James Williams [00:42:16]:
Those guys and Dune. So it's funny because at the football.

James Williams [00:42:19]:
Game the other day, one of the.

James Williams [00:42:20]:
Guys, he's a physical therapist, really thick guy, and he had tattoos on his arm. And I said, oh, that's Tengguar.

James Williams [00:42:31]:
He goes, right.

James Williams [00:42:32]:
So Tengwa is the elvish language, the elvish writing script for Quenya and Sindaran. Sindarin, right? He says, yeah, but it's. But it's a Bene Gesserit saying, right? That comes from.

James Williams [00:42:46]:
That comes from.

James Williams [00:42:50]:
And so I said, so I teach the weirding way of fighting. He's like, okay.

James Williams [00:42:57]:
So I had him grab me, right?

James Williams [00:43:00]:
And I said, you know, strong guy, right? Really fit. So I had him grab me, and.

James Williams [00:43:08]:
I just turn my hand over. You can't prevent it.

James Williams [00:43:10]:
Now if I tense and start flexing, he can stop me. Or we have a wrestling mat. I'm a good wrestler, but I get tired really fast.

James Williams [00:43:20]:
So if you can hang on for.

James Williams [00:43:21]:
Not, that doesn't work the same anymore.

James Williams [00:43:24]:
So you get all kinds of these things. If I don't use any muscle, I literally feel like all this is empty and I can move. The person can't stop me.

James Williams [00:43:34]:
As soon as I tense even a little bit.

James Williams [00:43:36]:
Now we have a. Now we have a fight. Now I've got to try to use strengthening leverage. Okay?

James Williams [00:43:41]:
It took time to realize how that.

James Williams [00:43:44]:
Worked, but that's what they're using with.

James Williams [00:43:46]:
The sword so the personal cut down and you go like that, and their.

James Williams [00:43:50]:
Sword goes right past you and you right when you cut them. And yet I never knock their sword.

James Williams [00:43:54]:
Away sideways at all.

James Williams [00:43:57]:
Yeah.

James Williams [00:43:57]:
Literally letting them have what they want.

James Williams [00:44:00]:
And I'm taking the space that they.

James Williams [00:44:01]:
Left just as they left it.

James Williams [00:44:03]:
The moment they left it. I've already taken that space.

James Williams [00:44:06]:
And so they'll be cutting like this.

James Williams [00:44:08]:
And they'll be doing just like that.

James Williams [00:44:10]:
Okay. And so that is. That is a fundamental part that you.

James Williams [00:44:15]:
Can start teaching fairly early.

James Williams [00:44:16]:
So I'll have the kids or.

James Williams [00:44:18]:
Or the. Or the. Whoever I'm doing.

James Williams [00:44:20]:
Right.

James Williams [00:44:20]:
Okay.

James Williams [00:44:21]:
The person's. Person's reaching to grab like this, and you just reach in parallel.

James Williams [00:44:26]:
What's happening? Don't.

James Williams [00:44:28]:
Don't push sideways.

James Williams [00:44:29]:
When I'm looking for contact, all you have to do is take like this elbow's got to go through this space. If it can go through that space, if it can't go through that space at a mission.

Bob DeMarco [00:44:39]:
Is this different from intercepting, fist or.

James Williams [00:44:42]:
Interception in that sense?

James Williams [00:44:44]:
Yes. Okay. Because ultimately I won't even touch you eventually. Okay.

James Williams [00:44:49]:
I won't even touch it because I'm managing a relationship more than I'm trying to block or deflect.

James Williams [00:44:56]:
Okay.

James Williams [00:44:57]:
So as I move, I also may.

James Williams [00:44:59]:
Not be where you think I am.

James Williams [00:45:02]:
But I can't be doing it by any movements that the eye can see.

James Williams [00:45:07]:
Right.

James Williams [00:45:08]:
But, you know, Tacitus flavors Forgettis Renatus and his David Militarai. You know, in every battle, after all, the eye is fooled first. Okay. So fooling the eye, right, Meant fooling the grasp, fooling any contact.

James Williams [00:45:25]:
Right.

James Williams [00:45:26]:
And so.

James Williams [00:45:27]:
So I can get basics down with people, because if you've got a small.

James Williams [00:45:31]:
Knife, what I want is if the person's coming in, doing whatever, I want.

James Williams [00:45:34]:
To come right through, and I want.

James Williams [00:45:35]:
To go to places that matter. I want to just stab them or something.

James Williams [00:45:37]:
Right.

James Williams [00:45:38]:
I want to go to places that. That. That matter in the moment.

James Williams [00:45:42]:
Right.

James Williams [00:45:42]:
We all saw that stabbing in the.

James Williams [00:45:44]:
In.

James Williams [00:45:46]:
That was in Perth. It was in Queensland. Is it Melbourne? Anyway, in Australia. I can't remember now, but then two groups of guys going back and forth.

James Williams [00:45:56]:
And one of them had a knife and going back and forth. Did you see that one?

Bob DeMarco [00:45:58]:
I'm not sure if I. If I know this one. I see a lot of stabbing videos.

James Williams [00:46:02]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:02]:
I'm not sure.

James Williams [00:46:03]:
Yeah. So it's a bunch of guys, and.

James Williams [00:46:04]:
One of them has knife on one side, one on the other.

James Williams [00:46:07]:
He's a pretty good guy here. And force comes Up.

James Williams [00:46:11]:
Everybody backs off. But the one guy, he's literally taking.

James Williams [00:46:13]:
This knife and it's not real big, but it's big enough. He's swinging at people, right?

James Williams [00:46:18]:
And he's.

James Williams [00:46:19]:
And he's aiming, he's aiming for, for a deadly spot. And if you can see, if not.

James Williams [00:46:27]:
Let me know and I'll find it. I'll take that.

James Williams [00:46:29]:
I'm sure I have it. So they're going back and forth a little bit, all this kind of stupid stuff, right? And so the second time they closed.

James Williams [00:46:39]:
The big guy came up like the first time, and everybody backed away because he's big.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:42]:
Gets him right on the throat.

James Williams [00:46:44]:
Yeah, Hit him right here.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:46]:
And it took him a second to realize it. And then he just drops.

James Williams [00:46:48]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

James Williams [00:46:50]:
It took him a few steps, you know, And I call this the golden crime because apexy, the lung blooded artery.

James Williams [00:46:57]:
Juggler, the brachial plexus, I mean, it's all. You'll get a high return on your.

James Williams [00:47:04]:
Investment for the risk that you took.

Bob DeMarco [00:47:05]:
All right, let me, let me ask you this just because we have about 10 minutes or a little bit more left here. But I want to get to this, to the concept of escalation of force. We live in troubled times. We have a lot of conflict, just kind of running rampant. What is a good way to think about how and when to escalate force with some random person on the street?

James Williams [00:47:28]:
Okay, so first of all, mindset training. So first of all, I leave the house with the highest level of force I can carry. So for me, every day I've got a Glock 43. You know, I've got 16 rounds in.

James Williams [00:47:42]:
That, a 15 round backup magazine.

James Williams [00:47:44]:
I've got four and a half inch blade, designer CRKT HC4 knife here. I've got one of these here in the other pocket.

James Williams [00:47:55]:
So I mean four and a half inch.

James Williams [00:47:57]:
This is the operator one. It actually has a hook because my.

James Williams [00:48:00]:
Warrior son, you put this on is otonashi.

James Williams [00:48:03]:
So he could just draw it in one motion. Have a flipper version blackened as well. But this actually has Wolm's blade design on it. This is dark, there's nothing on it.

James Williams [00:48:15]:
Just.

James Williams [00:48:16]:
Just because some people need anonymity. But anyway, so I've got that, I've got two flashlights, I've got a Surefire Pro 2 15, 15, 100 lumens, 35, 35,000 candela, right? And then I've got another one, 400 lumen, one that fits on my keychain. The stockbride big. And so When I. And I've got. I've got a tourniquet in my pocket. Wear cargo pants most of the time, got a tourniquet. That's just the stuff on me.

James Williams [00:48:49]:
Okay. And so that means I have tools, right?

James Williams [00:48:52]:
And so. And I think having tools makes you more aware right now, my car, I've.

James Williams [00:48:58]:
Got all kinds of much more medical stuff.

James Williams [00:48:59]:
I've got a whole lot more stuff.

James Williams [00:49:00]:
I've got a board expedition. It's like, it's set up also to be.

James Williams [00:49:04]:
Right.

James Williams [00:49:04]:
Like, hit a deer at 50 miles an hour and not hurt the car, right? So. So. Well, because there's a lot of woods.

James Williams [00:49:11]:
And a lot of deer around here.

James Williams [00:49:12]:
And so the first thing is the mindset before you leave the house.

James Williams [00:49:16]:
Am I prepared? Where am I going? Where am I going there? Who am I going with?

James Williams [00:49:21]:
Right?

James Williams [00:49:21]:
One on one could be more than two, or one on one can be less than one. Yeah, okay. And I've seen that. You know, I think I told you I was. It was actually. Oh, there was a guy's name.

James Williams [00:49:34]:
Ah.

James Williams [00:49:36]:
I was up in Hollywood, Fred Astaire's old house. And so there was a wealthy guy there, and he had a daughter, and he wanted me to come teach a class. Actually had to put him out of the class and make him quiet because she was telling me some stuff that she needed to tell him. He was like, what? Quiet? It's my class.

James Williams [00:49:55]:
Right?

James Williams [00:49:57]:
But she had a situation where.

James Williams [00:50:00]:
She.

James Williams [00:50:00]:
Led party, and she And a girlfriend called a cab. The cab came, wasn't the cab company. So she said, this isn't.

James Williams [00:50:08]:
This isn't our cabinet.

James Williams [00:50:08]:
Bill goes, oh, it'll be fine.

James Williams [00:50:10]:
Right?

James Williams [00:50:11]:
So they get in, right? And she's not feeling comfortable. She's like, I want to get off of the house.

James Williams [00:50:16]:
And he goes, no, no, it's fine.

James Williams [00:50:18]:
Don't worry about it. You know?

James Williams [00:50:20]:
And so the girl gets out and.

James Williams [00:50:22]:
The guy goes, yeah, you're coming over.

James Williams [00:50:25]:
And she's like, freaking out. So she finally gets somebody on her phone. So he drops her. I know what you're doing, right? So I'm talking to her, and she had a couple other instances. I said, darling, you need to understand that you don't have friends. These people aren't concerned about you. So that's the first thing when you're out there with these people. You know, she's uncomfortable.

James Williams [00:50:47]:
And you're not saying, hey, I can walk in my house.

James Williams [00:50:50]:
Right?

James Williams [00:50:51]:
You don't have friends. I live in a completely different area. I live in such a great bubble that it's another story.

James Williams [00:50:57]:
And so you need to understand, who am I going with? Where are we going? You know what?

James Williams [00:51:01]:
It's backup plan. And so especially young women, right?

James Williams [00:51:06]:
You see, more and more of these.

James Williams [00:51:07]:
Guys are letting out that young girl was just killed again, in South Carolina.

James Williams [00:51:11]:
Right?

James Williams [00:51:12]:
South Carolina, you know, and they're letting these people out over and over, right? This isn't a be nice to people thing. Those people are in prison for a reason, right? And so.

James Williams [00:51:23]:
And so one.

James Williams [00:51:24]:
So you want to read all of that?

James Williams [00:51:27]:
Where you going?

James Williams [00:51:28]:
Never walk past a dark hole clear with your light or something. I've got a couple videos on that up on YouTube that when I was doing some TV stuff, right? And so you always clear a black hole. Don't go by them.

James Williams [00:51:42]:
Don't walk up to them.

James Williams [00:51:43]:
Don't walk up to your house of bushes.

James Williams [00:51:45]:
You can.

James Williams [00:51:46]:
There's a woman in Seattle and guy.

James Williams [00:51:50]:
Was in the bushes and followed her into. You know, that.

James Williams [00:51:53]:
That happened there as well. And so. So you got to think about all the things. Have these tweets on you, right?

James Williams [00:52:00]:
You have to have them on you.

James Williams [00:52:02]:
And ladies are the worst for that right Now. Part of it is because it makes them afraid, and then they don't want to be prepared. And that's why, like Pen.

James Williams [00:52:13]:
Because Pen always carrying knives, right?

James Williams [00:52:16]:
Pen actually for breaking contact. His personal offense is a breaking contact thing, right? This will actually work better in the night because it hurts a whole lot more, right? It hurts a whole lot more. You know, I. I did the key, you know, the whole bit, because I've used them before. It's just I bent one so bad, I almost could drive away.

James Williams [00:52:33]:
So I didn't.

James Williams [00:52:34]:
Maybe I should disobey. You should design something that anyway. But so you have your tools with you, right? Don't let people get close.

James Williams [00:52:43]:
You don't let them talk you into things, right?

James Williams [00:52:45]:
Including your friends.

James Williams [00:52:48]:
That might be the bigger thing.

James Williams [00:52:49]:
And so, you know, and just think.

James Williams [00:52:52]:
About when I leave my house, you know, I'm in a different world. You're on defcon, right?

James Williams [00:52:57]:
Say Sunday afternoon in your house. So fairy.

James Williams [00:53:00]:
Everything's great. DEFCON port. You work your way.

James Williams [00:53:02]:
As soon as you get in your car, it's at least defcon. Get out of your car downtown someplace, you know, especially at night. Now you're in DEFCON 2 potentially, right? You know, and then, you know, then it's like, oh, these, this, you know.

James Williams [00:53:15]:
Now I'm starting to access tools or.

James Williams [00:53:18]:
Have them in my hands, right? With the ladies, it has to be it can't be stuck in their purse. You know, I always ask like, how do you guys find things in your purse like this, right? Can't be that, right?

James Williams [00:53:30]:
So you know the sure Fire stiletto, just the regular one's not that expensive. It's.

James Williams [00:53:34]:
And it's, it's not plastic, but you know, some type of thing. So it's, it's enough that they could.

James Williams [00:53:40]:
Slip it inside their pants because they always wear.

James Williams [00:53:42]:
I'm.

James Williams [00:53:42]:
I'm wearing stuff to carry what I want, right?

James Williams [00:53:45]:
We're not going to do that.

James Williams [00:53:46]:
You know, some of the, some. So to have the flashlight, that's the most important thing besides this having a.

James Williams [00:53:54]:
Tool like that first and foremost.

James Williams [00:53:56]:
Okay. So even on that train, if that.

James Williams [00:53:59]:
Guy would have stood up and she would have been watched, she could have hit him with the light and hit him with a pen or something, right?

James Williams [00:54:04]:
Because even that lit train, that's 600 lumens, that's enough in the moment, right, to help so those things. And again, as you carry stuff and it just automatically raises your deft on your defense condition more prepared, right? Because you're recognizing yourself that when you go out it's potentially dangerous. Another one, I pulled this video off of YouTube Years and years ago. First time I was in Africa I had lunch with this guy, this far guide and he gave me a book. I gave him one of my. Which is interesting because I didn't know this story at the time, but in 99 he was getting.

James Williams [00:54:49]:
Taking some people up into the Buwemi.

James Williams [00:54:51]:
Formless forest in Uganda to see mountain gorillas and interhamway. The Hutu death squads from Rwanda had.

James Williams [00:55:03]:
Came through early in the morning and they took all the English speaking people.

James Williams [00:55:06]:
And separated and took them up into the forest, right? So it's a really well done documentary and I use it as who lives, who dies and why? Because people that died actually made the decision themselves. And they had a couple one, his was a couple and they were the strong power couple from Seattle, I think Portland. And just loved and just watched them come apart. Especially him as a man not able to handle the stress of it, the process, the fear. And so things like that are really good. So I had one of, one of my friends, he's actually a helicopter pilot, his wife was there and she got halfway through, she went, went outside the dojo. This one, that's the neatest one, had my dojo there. I walked out, I said so, so what's the problem? She said, I just kept watching stuff, you know, after some stuff in College.

James Williams [00:55:58]:
I just kept watching. I go, okay. She said, got kids, right?

James Williams [00:56:01]:
I knew she did.

James Williams [00:56:02]:
Said, so if you can't handle what's.

James Williams [00:56:04]:
Going to happen to them.

James Williams [00:56:05]:
And so a few days later, Thursday class, he comes in, he goes, what'd you do? She said she's like dialed. She'd like to text everything first.

James Williams [00:56:12]:
She's like, he's not about you, mom.

James Williams [00:56:16]:
You want to get past that stuff.

James Williams [00:56:18]:
You're a dad, right? Yep. Yep. All of a sudden the rules change.

James Williams [00:56:22]:
So.

James Williams [00:56:23]:
So, you know, just, just the personal responsibility part.

James Williams [00:56:26]:
And even thinking, hey, you could save your friends, you know, they're gonna do something stupid. It's like, yeah, let's not do that.

James Williams [00:56:33]:
Right?

James Williams [00:56:33]:
You can read about in the paper.

James Williams [00:56:34]:
In the morning when somebody else made that choice. Not an easy thing, dad.

James Williams [00:56:38]:
I know. I went through it. I had boys, though. So my thing was, yeah, that young lady's gonna get home, same condition.

James Williams [00:56:45]:
She left the house. If I heard from somebody's dad, you're.

James Williams [00:56:48]:
In more trouble for me than you are from him. Right?

Bob DeMarco [00:56:51]:
Yeah. Having. Having girls is, you know, they've got great heads on their shoulder. They. They have a mother who's very extremely security minded. This whole house is. But I can't say it doesn't worry me.

James Williams [00:57:04]:
It does. And part of it is again, making choices.

James Williams [00:57:06]:
So this is for Christopher Miles. Want to drive? So we drop him off in the costa. The party in the house we dropped him off in.

James Williams [00:57:14]:
Mom's like, we're really cool parents.

James Williams [00:57:16]:
Don't worry. We're really cool. And this and that, right? And I can see as I'm driving, we're driving home. My wife's stewing out a little bit.

James Williams [00:57:22]:
She leads people better than a ciarant interrogatives I've worked with, right? You walk in the front door, she.

James Williams [00:57:27]:
Goes, we're going back. I'm not.

James Williams [00:57:30]:
So we drive all the way back to the party.

James Williams [00:57:32]:
He's fishing, walking these two girls.

James Williams [00:57:34]:
I slowed down like, so what's up? These two girls had left the party, go down where there were older guys with drugs and alcohol. And Christopher had gone down, bring him back. Right now my wife's like 5 to 100ft, very athletic, but tiny, right? But she's got her brother's blood, right. He's one of the toughest guys. And she's like.

James Williams [00:57:57]:
And said, no, we're not going in the house. They just take him home. Take the girls back home.

James Williams [00:58:01]:
Right?

James Williams [00:58:02]:
But the ability to read stuff like that or have.

James Williams [00:58:04]:
Have the male that's going to Be a man.

James Williams [00:58:08]:
Right.

James Williams [00:58:09]:
Watch out for your daughter in the process. Yeah. And make sure that she gets home. That she gets home okay. That's a big choice when you have daughters. Boys, I trained them.

James Williams [00:58:19]:
They.

James Williams [00:58:20]:
They had. They had skills and they had a responsibility. And that responsibility was that young lady just need to be taken care of.

James Williams [00:58:26]:
Once you. When you're out on a date with her, that's your. That's your responsibility.

James Williams [00:58:29]:
Yeah, it was just. So Christopher went down, got those two girls, and so I was very proud.

James Williams [00:58:33]:
Of them in the process.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:35]:
Absolutely. And one of the things that I've trained my girls out of as much as I can so far is people pleasing and trying not to offend people. We are not a. We are not a house that worries much about offending people, which is great. But, you know, a lot of people default to don't offend, be polite. And being polite is always important.

James Williams [00:58:57]:
Yes.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:57]:
But, yes, it's different from being a pushover. And.

James Williams [00:59:00]:
Yeah, so. So that's.

James Williams [00:59:02]:
That's an interesting thing. You know, I live.

James Williams [00:59:04]:
I live in a place, and again.

James Williams [00:59:06]:
I live in a bubble here.

James Williams [00:59:07]:
Kids are great. Most of them are homeschooled, really capable, very polite. Ma', am, sir. This.

James Williams [00:59:12]:
Right.

James Williams [00:59:12]:
The whole bit. But they're also.

James Williams [00:59:15]:
They're also perceptive kids who need people.

James Williams [00:59:18]:
Right.

James Williams [00:59:19]:
And so being polite is one thing.

James Williams [00:59:22]:
Reading people and understanding is another.

James Williams [00:59:24]:
Yeah. My wife, because her dad died in.

James Williams [00:59:28]:
The middle of the night when she.

James Williams [00:59:29]:
Was 10, she was a latchkey kid out of the house at 15, you know. Right.

James Williams [00:59:36]:
She.

James Williams [00:59:36]:
Because she could read people like nobody. I mean, literally CIA interpretive.

James Williams [00:59:41]:
She could read people like nobody's business.

James Williams [00:59:43]:
But, you know, you want to gain that.

James Williams [00:59:45]:
It's one thing to be polite.

James Williams [00:59:48]:
It's another to be.

James Williams [00:59:50]:
To know when you know, to do that.

James Williams [00:59:54]:
So. Yeah.

James Williams [00:59:55]:
And again, reading people. Oh, you're just judging.

James Williams [00:59:57]:
Judgment's different. Judgment's God's. God's responsibility.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:01]:
Discernment.

James Williams [01:00:02]:
Yes.

James Williams [01:00:02]:
We're. We're leading people.

James Williams [01:00:05]:
That guy in the.

James Williams [01:00:06]:
On.

James Williams [01:00:07]:
On that bus, on that. On that train, right away, boom. Bad. Some bad going on there. That guy, seriously dangerous.

James Williams [01:00:15]:
Right.

James Williams [01:00:16]:
Walking with one of my female students, one of my instructors in Germany, where she lives in Cologne, cold, and just pointing out, group of young males, not German, don't walk by, there's a single female at night.

James Williams [01:00:29]:
Yep.

James Williams [01:00:29]:
People and say, oh, well, listen, Muslims.

James Williams [01:00:31]:
Are a problem, and they're a big problem with women. Huge problem.

James Williams [01:00:35]:
Right.

James Williams [01:00:36]:
And so listen, you read that.

James Williams [01:00:37]:
You read the handwriting on the young males are potentially problem males.

James Williams [01:00:42]:
Right?

James Williams [01:00:43]:
You need to read that across the street. Don't put yourself in those positions. The best way.

James Williams [01:00:46]:
Don't put yourself in that position. Absolutely right.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:49]:
Especially that in Cologne. It's a huge issue.

James Williams [01:00:52]:
Yes.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:53]:
We're up against our hour. I want to thank going on, but for those of you who are patrons of this show, we're going to continue this conversation. I feel like this could go on for. For days and days. You're. You're fascinating and you're a wealth of knowledge. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been awesome talking with you.

James Williams [01:01:11]:
Thank you for having me. Good seeing you again.

James Williams [01:01:14]:
And I'll probably take a look through the comments if people have questions.

James Williams [01:01:19]:
Know I don't have as much time.

James Williams [01:01:21]:
This way anymore, but I have a little bit more this way, so.

James Williams [01:01:24]:
So. So I'll see if I can help.

James Williams [01:01:27]:
Out if people have questions I can help with.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:29]:
Outstanding. Thank you so much, sir.

James Williams [01:01:31]:
Yes, absolutely.

Announcer [01:01:32]:
Do you carry multiple knives? Then overthink which one to use when an actual cutting chore pops up. You're a knife junkie of the first order.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:40]:
There he goes. Ladies and gentlemen, James Williams. Man alive. I love talking to this man, and sometimes at some points, I'm just barely holding on because I feel like a lot of this stuff has to be seen in person or demonstrated on you. Heaven forbid. But it was great talk with him. I strongly urge you to become a patron or a gentleman junkie and listen to the rest of this conversation and all the conversations we have here on this show. They keep going and it's.

James Williams [01:02:13]:
It's always a great listen.

Bob DeMarco [01:02:14]:
All right. For Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DiMarco saying until next time, don't take dull for an answer.

Announcer [01:02:21]:
Thanks for listening to the Knife Junkie podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate and review@reviewthepodcast.com for show notes for today's episode, additional resources, and to listen to past episodes, Visit our website, thenifejunkie.com you can also watch our latest videos on YouTube at the knifejunkie.com YouTube.