Tom Nugent, Knives By Nuge - The Knife Junkie Podcast (Episode 385)

©2023, Bob Demarco
The Knife Junkie Podcast
https://theknifejunkie.com

Transcript
[0:00] Welcome to the Knife Junkie Podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting.
Here's your host, Bob the Knife Junkie DeMarco. Welcome to the Knife Junkie Podcast. I'm Bob DeMarco.
On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with Tom Nugent of Knives by Nuge.
I recently came across Knives by Nuge while doom scrolling on Instagram to EDC fixed blades, something I love and I've been into a lot recently.
After that, Tom's knives kept popping up in my feed, so I gave him a follow and was immediately impressed by his beautiful little fixed blades, great for in the pocket carry with an ulti clip or the like.

[0:46] But his range is also impressive for a new maker with designs from EDC to camp to kitchen. And recently I saw a knife by Nuge that had a pleasingly tactical bend.
We'll meet Tom and talk about his knives and some big news that he's just recently announced. But before we do, be sure to like and comment, subscribe, hit the notification bell and download the show to your favorite podcast app so you can listen on the go.
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[1:53] It's a win-win. Check out the new knife specials each and every week at www.thenifedjunkie.com slash knives.
That's thenifedjunkie.com slash knives.
Subscribe to the Knife Junkies YouTube channel at thenifedjunkie.com slash YouTube. Hi Tom, welcome to the show.
Hey, thanks for having me. Hey, it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. Like I mentioned in the intro, I've been on a real fixed blade kick, especially after years of being really into the flippers and such.
And besides giant Bowie knives, I love EDC fixed blades. So I was really kind of drawn in by your work.
Beautifully done. I want to say congratulations on an announcement you recently made on your Instagram feed. I want to say that. What was that announcement?
So that announcement is that I'm going full time now with knife making, which is, it's pretty huge, it's pretty scary.
But you know, I'm very happy with the decision. I'm happy where everything's ending up. And yeah, I used to be a full time police officer in New Jersey and I just handed in my resignation this Monday.

[2:59] So wow congratulations thank you it's mixed emotions you know because that's something that i dedicate like a third of my life preparing for work and then you know. It's funny how things work out but i have a real passion for this and you know.
I can't with all the shift work and everything else is good imagine being a police officer you didn't have a lot of time for sleep on top of also running a business so one had to give and. I think I really found my passion and we're gonna roll with it.
Oh man, that sounds great. It sounds like you're a free man.
And I know our police departments are struggling these days because I know their hours are insane and numbers are down.
So I could see how working on a side passion or on a project, a business, could be nearly impossible with that kind of schedule. New Jersey, what was it like being a police officer in New Jersey?

[4:03] It's interesting to say the least. It's not the most friendly work environment all the times, but you learn how to deal with a lot of these things. The biggest thing you learn
is how to deal with people. I'm dealing with a customer or anything like that. It's never as bad as an issue I have with the person at work. Because at the end of the day, nobody's
trying to kill me over a knife. I was actually having a conversation with someone the other day talking about the pros and cons of going to this. Then he had to remind me, yeah, you're also not going to get shot. I'm like, oh, that's a cool perk.
No kidding. I work around police, adjacent from time to time. I'm amazed by how composed there when I would probably just lose my patience. So I bet there's a lot to learn there. So
the knife making came out of where? Where did you get this love of knives?

[5:03] So I've always been into knives. I mean, everybody's got the same kind of origin story. I mean, I remember my first knife that I actually really cherished was an old Gerber that I
found on the side of the Delaware River after my pack got dumped down the river after a canoe flipped and that was the only thing I had for the rest of the trip so So I kept that thing in cherisher for a while.
But the guy who got me into making knives was actually a buddy I trained jiu-jitsu with. I met him through over in Hanzo Gracie in Northvale, New Jersey. It was one of those things where he's like, you know, you could probably do this. You're pretty handy. We started messing around and then.

[5:40] I got more into it. He had twins. He stopped being so into it. Then, yeah, it spiraled to where we are today. So is this someone who actually showed you the ropes in terms of how to, you know, how,
how to make knives from scratch? Not really. We were both YouTube babies when it came to this.

[6:01] And I haven't had any professional training or anything like that, which is why I probably still have very serious imposter syndrome. But I mean, even being here today, I was just watching your,
interview with Winkler and I'm like what am I doing on this thing right now?
There's some great sound here. I'm just some guy who watched some internet videos and figured out how to do it. Well that's funny. Imposter syndrome is very common.
Not just for knife makers and it's just very common in general.
But it's funny because everyone who's ever been on this show has made interesting knives and and they all and that's usually my entree. I see their work,
and I'm like wow let's talk about this uh because I am a knife junkie and that's what I want to talk about. And then
It's amazing to see what the backstories are to people. So you hate you make beautiful knives and that's why you're here.
I want to find out what your backstory is.
And, you know, there are a lot of people who listen to the show who are teetering on the verge of where you are making that big jump.

[7:09] So what kind of decision is that to make? I mean, you know, you have something very steady and sure with a government job like police work.
So what what really was the impetus? Well, I mean other than like Benefits and cost analysis and everything else like that one thing that I learned very quick in law enforcement.

[7:34] Life isn't always guaranteed and Length of terms and happiness really kind of matter because I won't go into details But I had a couple stories that like really stuck with me where you're like, you know what?
You never know what you really got. So I with a lot of cops They just they try to grit their teeth and bear through their career for a hope of a retirement at the end But they don't live their life during you know, and I saw this as something that you know I won't probably become a you know, ladder Slee rich man by making knives.

[8:05] However, I can see my life being way more enjoyable being passionate about what I do with other people that are super passionate about the product So, you know, it just seems a little more fulfilling than just trying to like, you know,
bear with it for another 24 years and then hopefully have a retirement at the end.
You know what I mean?

[8:23] Yeah. And hopefully make it those 24 years. Of course, there's no guarantees anywhere. But when you're wearing a gun and a badge, you know, your chances, you know, they go up.
So what about your fellow police officers? As they saw your love of knives and knife making begin to bud and then your skills begin to grow,
what was it like being around?
Because those are all guys who have tools and utility belts, and I'm sure most of them have an appreciation for knives.
So what was it like being in the police department and starting that hobby, which now has become your career.
Well, one thing that I learned about cops and guys there and law enforcement and girls that they are terrible to their gear. So whatever it is, it better be durable.
And another thing I realized is they want simple that one that you mentioned before, the more tactical S knife that I was showing you actually designed that with a police officer that I went to the academy with. It's called the CF three is this guy right here.
Sorry, I've got terrible lighting in here.
But uh, it's a ringtail karambit style knife with you know more of a standard blade to it because I just mean him came up with this design because he was actually shot in the line of duty and.

[9:44] When he was shot the guy was on top of them So he couldn't access his firearm is the guy's hip was over his gun and the other party was able to get his gun Out of his waistband. Thankfully he's still here, but he wanted something that he could wear on his chest simple to pull out. You put your finger in there, you know where the business end is.

[10:04] And just use it to create distance. But the reason why I did the blade shape the way it is right here is because it's more of a utilitarian blade. Because the same guy who got the prototype and designed it with me, he told me the first day with his prototype, he actually used it,
but not in a tactical fighting scenario. There was a gentleman who had a heart attack on the street in Jersey City, and it was the dead of winter, I think it was February, and he used blade to cut through all four layers of clothing and they were able to slap an AED on them and bring them back. So it's I realized with this kind of stuff like,
you have very little real estate to actually put gear on. I mean you would love to carry everything that you can but then you won't be able to move or
function. So I wanted to create a knife that was you know simple enough to carry and useful for a multitude of purposes and also simple if you really need to
deploy it because knife fighting is tough. I am no knife fighting expert. That's why I just want things simple to work like that. And also if you want to use this utility, it fits perfectly in the hand right there. And that's what I really learned from law enforcement. Keep it simple, stupid. Keep it simple, stupid.

[11:14] You mentioned jujitsu before. That kind of knife with a ring is probably handy. Well, it sounds like it was a grappling situation that really gave,
birth to that idea in the first place. I have mixed feelings about rings. I've done a little bit of karambit training in the Kali stuff I've done and I find it to be very very.

[11:38] You have to have a very, very high level of training, in my opinion, to do anything than just kind of slash away with a karambit. And at that rate, I would prefer a pikal style, you know,
with the tip down and the edge in for that kind of caveman, you know, gross motor stuff.
The ring is what kind of throws me for a loop sometimes because I always think of it in terms of all the fancy flipping people do with the crampets when they want to show off. But you.

[12:09] Raised the very interesting point and all and you know this this is where the ring really comes in handy just to be able to blindly kind of find what you're looking for put your finger through
and pull it out and you might scrape your finger but you can worry about that later really you need to have that thing in hand. Well another very handy part about the ring is it's not till you know swinging around and look cool and everything like that, even though you can.
And there's been many a midnight tour, I just caught myself flinging this thing around. Never caught myself. But it's because when I was wearing this on my outer carry, it was very tight to my
chest because you don't want it very loose saying out there, come grab me. So to get like a good grip in the finger, sometimes I can only get my finger in that much and I can still pull it out
and then get my full master grip on the thing. So it kind of helps keep it tucked away because I mean, anytime you get into a fight, especially wearing that much gear, it turns into a yard sale,
where all your items on your chest rig or on your waistband just go flying all over the place.

[13:13] So I wanted something that was secure and tight because that's one of those things that if you really need it, it's like a parachute, you know, you really need it. You need it at that moment. and if you don't have it ready to go, you probably don't want to run into a chance of needing it again.
Yeah, it's curtains. You know, it doesn't matter if you have a good knife on you or not. So in that situation, in those kind of tactical situations, you know, those kind of things come up a lot in discussions on this program.
But unless I have a law enforcement or martial arts expert or military person on, it's hypothetical.
So from your perspective and your experience, When these kind of, how often do these kind of hand to hand tussles kind of come up?
It must be somewhat frequent because you're not drawing your gun as much, I would imagine, as you are laying hands on people to control them.
You need to be much better with your hands than you do. Actually, the best thing you can do is be good with your words.
I can't tell you how many times I've stopped fights from just, you know, talking them down and being reasonable people and listening to what they're saying.
That's the most important part but you know that's hard to train at least jiu-jitsu you could sign up for classes for that kind of stuff and personally that's the best way I think it is to handle most situations when you can and obviously if there's weapons involved.

[14:35] You gotta do what you gotta do. To keep everybody safe. But hand to hand combat is probably one of you know, a lot of guys are lacking it. But you can't blame them because you know, they don't
have the time for the training or the money. Jiu Jitsu is expensive every month. I pay a good amount of money every month to go to it. And it takes up a lot of time. So then you involve,
having bills, overtime, a wife, kids, you know, and then you sprinkle in, you know, another 20 hours of jiu-jitsu a week, it's tough and not everybody has the time for it. So, you know,
personally, I wish they had more in-schedule training for that kind of stuff.

[15:14] Yeah. But, you know. That's exactly what I was going to say. That's not something a police officer should be seeking out in an extracurricular kind of way. That's something that should be coming,
through departmental training. I mean, I'm not saying that you got to go through a full five built Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu course, but I mean something that's trained on a regular basis.

[15:34] So that police officers don't feel like they have to go for the deadly force.
No. And it gives them confidence too. Because you can't underestimate anybody because you never know what their actual skills are. However, when most things were getting heated, it just kind of you know knowing that you have some training in your back pocket and you probably won't die that easily.

[15:57] You know it kind of makes you feel a little more calm in the situation And it's not like a tombstone courage kind of thing, but it's like alright I could probably hold my own for a bit So maybe I still have time to talk this down and work it out before you know,
It goes crazy because the one thing I did notice is guys and girls who always bark the loudest normally have those softs punch So it's like it's always a quiet guy you gotta be watchful for.
That's normally the guy who knows what's going on. on. You are not the first person I've heard say that or the first law enforcement officer former in this case that I've heard say that and that's a.

[16:33] That's something to keep in mind, you know. It can be intimidating when someone's shouting you down, but keep your eyes peeled for his friend lurking in the corner, you know.
So, what are the quiet types that get you?

[16:43] So, let's talk about some of the knives. First of all, what is this the ring knife called? So, that's called the CF-3. That's actually, it's dedicated to a Georgia City police officer who lost his life in 2019 in the shooting that happened there. So, Detective Joseph Seals was named that.
The guy I designed it with, he was actually partners with them.
So that's why we call it the CF-3. And it comes in two different sizes. It comes in this standard size.
And then it comes in XL because I realized people have gigantic hands compared to my little baby hands.
So I had to make two sizes. That's funny, man. Yeah, that's one of those things I do every time I get a new knife. I'll bring it to the office and there are several people there with giant hands. How does this feel in your hand? Yeah.
Okay. But so let's talk about some of the other knives, the ones that really, the ones that I saw first that really captured my heart. And some of them are really small actually.

[17:39] Now I am not an outdoorsman. I aspire to one day be one because I think, well, it doesn't matter why.
Your knives I noticed have a really nice Scandi grind beautiful handles and sort of a bushcraft camping kind of vibe kind of,
steering away from the police conversation. Tell me about the knives the main kind of the knives that are the ones that you work on the most and tell me where they come from and that.

[18:15] So I've always been a big outdoorsman. It's always really been my passion. And I always even when I was still a police officer, I was considered so I kind of forgot I was a cop at times.
Because I really just enjoyed the outdoors more. I got heavily involved with the Boy Scouts back in the day. That's where it all kind of really started.
And then afterwards, I just did like a deep dive into all sorts of fishing, hunting. I worked in outdoor retail for years. That was the biggest problem because I would try a new hobby every other month.
And if you saw my basement right now, I could probably open up an outdoor shop.

[18:49] We wouldn't be able to live where we live without if I didn't have that basement to store all my junk. But so yeah, I got a little bit of experience in everything from like fly fishing, surf fishing,
out and on talking, everything like that. A lot of camping, a lot of wilderness survival prep and everything like that. So that's kind of where my passion really is with knives, because that's what I use the most. And I was even thinking about it earlier this morning that like,
having a knife is one of the most personal things you can have out there because if you're into bushcraft that's your number one tool. If you're into hunting that is what you get you know you're
celebrating when you take that thing out because you just actually you got a piece you got you finally did it. And it's like it's that physical connection to everything so that's as you can see like where I really perk up is with these kind of knives. Even though I do have a culinary line,
because I love to cook but I would say the outdoor stuff is really my jam.

[19:46] Camp Toku, I like that. Well that's that's one that's this guy right here. I did a so that's kind of where my culinary line and my outdoor line mesh together. So as you can see it's got more of a santoku shape and also that and that's McStyle head.

[20:05] But, and this one's tough, because it's hard to mark it, because you can't just really see the difference, it's the fine difference.
On the edge there, I take the tip much thinner than I do the back here.
So back here, you could do all your batoning down there, and your finer chopping and slicing up front.
So I haven't found a good way to really advertise and market that, but I'll get there one day.
But it's a comfortable knife. I baton this, do plenty of hardwoods, and then started cooking right afterwards with it.
What's the width on that?
So this is a 332nd stock, so fairly thin, but I mean, that's the same kind of stuff that Mora uses, and I don't think anybody can say a Mora knife isn't tough.
Yeah, no kidding. Do you work in a range of steels, depending on what the use is or do you kind of stick to?

[20:53] To the same things for outdoors knives? I kind of stick to the same with my culinary and outdoor knives. My culinary knives, I just do nitro V because it's simple and it's good and I think
it's got a great structure to it. I've never had any issues with it and it's always the engineering fallacy of what is the best steel and I am no steel nearby enemies. But I know it's a good,
tough steel that's easy to sharpen for most customers. And even I had a customer recently,
he wanted a whole kitchen set. And he said, I want the best steel possible. I'm like, whoa.

[21:29] Hold up. Because I'm like, do you want to be able to sharpen them yourself? He's like, I would like to. I'm like, all right, well, let's bring it back a little bit then because I could get you.

[21:39] The best, toughest, most wear-resistant steel. But good luck sharpening it yourself after you you start hitting the ceramic interplates with it.
Right.
Nitro V1095 is what I really use for most of the outdoor stuff.

[21:53] So the grinds, now am I correct on a lot of the smaller knives, these are Scandi grinds you're putting in?

[22:02] Yeah, a lot of Scandi grinds.

[22:05] I like the Scandi grind a lot. I still think it's a very versatile grind, especially with a thinner stock, because you're still, with that thin stock, you still have a very slicey knife.
Yeah, the Scandinavian grinds and chisel grinds, I've really grown to, they're like exotic birds to me and I use them on occasion.
I have a bunch of Emerson's, so they're all chisel ground.
But these kind of edges seem more acute to me.

[22:37] The chisel grind is like a Scandi grind, but just half of it.
So it just seems like you're, by not having that final relief edge, you're just kind of getting straight to it.
But why is that preferred in bushcraft, like say over an apple seed edge, which I know is, or a convex edge, which I know is also very common and popular in outdoor edges.

[23:03] So it essentially acts as a wood chisel. And for most bushcraft tests, that's what you're using. Is your cutting wood, you're manipulating wood, That's really the medium you're using to make most of your tools and other structures and everything is wood.
So it's very important to be able to cut through that very well. Some people actually with the scanning grind have a hard time getting a good feather stick just because of how much it bites quickly into the wood.
So it really takes a little bit of finesse because it can really dig in there quick. But if you're trying to hog wire material, especially if you're doing like a chest lever grip, you could really just shred with this kind of ride.

[23:39] So, before you started making these outdoor knives, which I'm assuming now you use when you go out camping and hunting, before you were making them, whose knives were you carrying?
What kind of knives inspired you?
I was carrying a lot of Benchmade, a lot of Kershaw's, a lot of stuff like that. I never, you know, it's funny because I was never like a giant knife collector before I got into this because with most of my stuff, I've, you know, I'll buy a couple good quality things and that's what I've learned. It's like, you know, you buy it right once and you're good.
And I just want the tool to work. And that's kind of, you know, carried over into my own designs, I think. Well, like I don't always use the flashiest stuff, but it's all good quality gear and it's going to work when you need it to. So that's kind of where my mindset kind of stuck with it.
Okay, so you called yourself an internet baby, or a YouTube baby when it comes to learning about knives and stuff. So how did that work in terms of?

[24:41] Kind of choosing the steels and figuring out heat treat. You know, that's something that you can read about. That's something that you can watch videos about. But I would also imagine that there is a great deal of feel to that. So how did you develop the skills and how long did it take you?

[24:58] I did this very simple thing of screwing up a lot. That's how I really learned.

[25:07] Because you learn something like heat treating, you're like, oh, that was too hot. And I cooked that thing and that's all cracked up and everything. And even just certain grinds where you take something too thin or you take something too thick, it's a lot of trial and error.
And I actually do have a lot of people that help me out now too that I work with. They're like, I'll send them a knife or two. They're like, why do you think of this? And that's what really
helped my game a lot. I was getting opinions from guys that are really still nerds or are really knife nerds. I'm just some, you know, goon in his garage making stuff. But I would send it to them and be like, Hey, tweak this, dial this. And I'm like, all right, cool. I could, you know,
and then that's how I really helped refine everything. Cause I always knew like the gist, but it was getting to those finer details, which really make the world of difference.

[25:55] So were those, uh, these are knife nerds, steel nerds you're talking about. Um, what, what about, But what about other outdoorsmen or your police friends or other people?

[26:09] Do you get your hands, I'm sorry, do you get your knives in the hands of those people to do real world testing?
Absolutely. Because, you know, there's a lot of guys out there who are out in the bush a whole lot more than me.
I actually joke around that now I end up spending all my time making stuff for people who are doing the things I want to do because I'm currently making the things for them. And hopefully that's changing now since I'm only working one full-time job.
So I do plan on getting out a lot more now.
So what kind of feedback?

[26:41] Is or has been the most helpful from those people that that have been using your knives in a practical way? So really the grind has helped out a lot grind and handle organomics,
Because it really does matter how it sits in your hand like even specific with the scanning grind This is you know, like I said, I'm far from a nerd and I've learned that I'm not really one to get into the debates
of everything, I just tell people what I do and then that's it. You guys will debate it from there. So with my scanning grinds, it's really hard to see in the light. You see that
there's a slight polish at the bottom of the bevel right there. So I'm hitting that on my leather belt on the 2x70 Intuitive. Pretty acute angle. Some people will say that's creating
a micro bevel. This is where it gets into the world of debates of everything. I don't think it's removing enough material to create a secondary bevel because I've,
done it with the Scandi grind and then taken out a really like high grip belt,
and just slightly going over the edge a little bit more because it does help it you know Scandi grinds they have very fine edges because it goes to an acute point.

[27:53] So I think with that hard buff on the leather belt and giving that little polish right there It helps toughen up the edge a little bit and that took a lot of uh fine tuning between whether I wanted to actually hit it On a belt do a micro bevel because I know there's guys like lt right who actually I believe bark river does it too where they actually.

[28:12] Hit it on I believe a buffing wheel pretty hard the same way to kind of create more of a secondary bevel to it Yeah, tops does that with their scandies?
I know. And I remember when they first started doing it with their brothers of Bushcraft Knife, which was kind of their their entree into that sort of Bushcraft Knife, there was a big
hue and cry about the fact that, oh my gosh, is that a secondary edge on that? And, and I think someone, maybe it was Craig, said the same thing. Look, you know, we pride ourselves on, you know,
some of the toughest knives around. Yeah. Therefore, our Scandy Ground Knives, you know,
We need to you need to do a little bit of that so that they don't break, but you still get the benefit,
Exactly, and but that's you know people could debate these things all day long And that's what makes for great internet forums however I just know that this works pretty well And I'm very happy with the results and it I personally think having that hard buff on there,
Helps the edge just hold up a little bit because that's where some of these guys help me out Is that would send them like one of each and be like just beat them up Let me know like I have a couple guys out with them right now We're still doing testing on a couple new knives and it's nice because you know, that's what they love to do And I'm like, all right good It gives me time to stay in the shop and keep working because I still test them all myself.

[29:32] But it's nice to have just different opinions out there because you know, just like anybody else you have this Like a second or third set of eyes on something They may see something that you don't and vice versa Right and they might put it through tests that you didn't even think of you know things like that.

[29:48] Rigors that need to be tested.

[29:51] Before we get to those, show me the knife that you were holding up. Remember that little guy up there that you were talking about, that little EDC Fixie?
This is based off of that.
So that little knife is called EDN. I recently, if you go to knivesbynuge on Instagram, you have the little black micarta with the flared copper tubes.
This is the big brother to that one.

[30:13] So we essentially made the blade 3.5 inches on it and we extended the handle a little bit and changed up the curve because that's one of those things where you can't just extend it on CAD because the feel is completely different.
So I did have to do some adjustments by hand to get it so your hand really fits in there well.
And with this knife specifically, this is only in 1084 because it's a prototype.
As you can see, I've been using it every single day, but because we burn wood to heat the house, So I'm literally using a knife.
Every morning and every evening to make sure the fire's going. And we're going to be doing these as a first for me in CPM3V, which I'm stoked about. So I'm really happy about that.
So does that mean that you have to buy a whole bunch more belts and prepare yourself differently to work that steel than what you have in the past? I am scared because I don't know.
No, like everything else, I will figure it out when we get there.
Thankfully with the Scandi Grinds, because it's such a short bevel on there, you really don't burn through too many belts.
Which gives a blessing because they're the most expensive part. But if I was, I have a couple of people that want this model on a flat grind, and if I'm going to do that, I'm going to have to do some pre-grinding on it beforehand.

[31:37] But you can't take it too far up because this is only a 3-30 second stock. And then it can get a little warpy if you take away too much material.
So it's going to be that fine line. I actually had these, all my stainless knives, he treated by Paul Boss and he does a great job of getting out any warp.
It's something with his cryo. Now I don't want to say what he told me because, you know, I can't repeat it properly.
However, in his cryo, he's able to get out any warp possible. And I do appreciate it because it saves me a ton of time.
So and that allows you to go thinner and to grind more pre-heat treat, which is easier, right?
And easier on the machines and such, right?

[32:21] What he told me is that I could pretty much take it, I would say maybe 80% of the way, say it's a flat grind, probably 80% of the way. As long as you have a flat section up there that goes up the majority of the night, he can keep any kind of warp out of it.
But if you go all the way up with the bevel, you'll lose that area and then you're going to have that open air between the plate and the knife and he's not going to have any flat surface to get that warp out.
But this time I'm going full thickness. It may be a giant regret, but we'll find out. Like I said, I learned by screwing up.
That's pretty cool. I mean, Paul Boss, he does Bucks heat treat and they're known for that. He gets a lot of, well, the Paul Boss he treats, get a lot of mileage out of whatever those steals are.
So that's a pretty cool place to go.

[33:18] Not a cool place. That's not the right word I'm trying to find. That's a shrewd place for a new maker to go. So that's something you don't have to worry about because he's the man.
So making these knives the large and the small, it's interesting you talk about you can't just extend it because the ergonomics change with the dimensional change. And I have found over time that's something I look at because I like small and large versions of knives.
And some designs, like some folders that I have, you are able to just add, you know, make it 10% larger and it works perfectly ergonomically.
And then there are other things that have, that are way more subtle, like Spyderco knives, you can't do that with for some reason.
They have to redesign. Other knives feel fine. So I think it's interesting that you paid attention to that because it's a real issue.
Oftentimes you can't just blow it up.

[34:17] Yeah. And it's, you have to, I mean, it looks great on paper, but you need to do, you need to get a little dirt time on the model, you know, before you like, you know, can actually start sending out there. And that's what I've learned is that you got to play with things first and get things dialed.
And then, you know, they get them out there and then too, you're still not done because there's still little subtle changes that you can make. something like this is one of the little neck knives that I do which also you You could wear it as a pocket sound knife.
It's i call it the wicked this is probably one of my more popular see if i can get the extra light. What one thing i change appears this one is one of the older ones this little bump right here the little finger trail is fine for my hand.
What i reference the baby hands that i have i had a couple guys with gorilla hands grab a hold this thing. That actually create a hotspot for him right there, which I didn't realize for me I did a lot of testing on this model and it beat it up all summer long and I thought it was perfect,
But then I started sending it out there and people like I don't know about this little thing right here So on all my newer models, we actually moved that back about 3 16th of an inch,
Which now gives everybody, you know the multitude size hands a more comfortable purchase on the knife. Yep. That's the guy.

[35:35] So all I had to do was move it back just a smidge and it made the world a difference.

[35:40] That is, that's pretty interesting how just a subtle, tiny little subtle change can make a huge difference.
And now you're going from camp knives and you're also doing kitchen knives. And to me, that's a huge difference.
I mean, there are, there, I'm sure there's a lot of subtlety there too, but you're, you're talking about going from Scandi grinds basically to full height flat grinds on very thin,
stock that's also very broad. What was it like going from, and I'm making an assumption now that you started with the camp knives, I could be wrong, but what's it like switching back and forth between those two different styles of blade grinding.
It's a trip. Because you're almost like every if you do too many outdoor knives and then switch back to the culinary knives, you're almost like a relearning it. I gave myself a doozy this past
week because I was working on a couple of Scandi grinds. And then I decided to throw into the mix fillet knife that I just finished up. And it's tough because you're talking about going from a thicker stock bush crafting knife to a super thin, super bendy, super flexible,
blade knife and the grinding style is completely different. And also just you know the way you have to grind is different. This thing you're really cutting it close with your thumbs.
Every now and then I feel like my thumb gets a little bit shorter with these guys.

[37:06] Where on the Scandi grinds I'm actually using a jig to make sure I get those perfect angles because it really matters there. When you're doing a full flat grind you have some wiggle room, you have the
the feel you could go with while you're going across the belt. I do all those freehand. Same with my savers because you can really feel it better but you also have some more like oops room when you're working on it. With the Scandi grind if I've tried free handing them it's it's tough it's really tough to do and I'm,
trying to get production speed up so if I could do the flat grinds by hand very fast that's the way I'm gonna do it. If I need to use a jig on the Scandis and and by all means I'll use a jig.
So little tools that help.
With the fillet knives, being especially thin and flexible, do you grind those after you have that heat treated?
How does that work?
I grind them from full heat treat.

[38:03] So, because they're fairly thin anyway, and if you use good aggressive belts, you can actually get through the material pretty fast.
And I've figured out that the flex, It isn't just from the heat treat alone. It's also about where you remove the material.
Where I want more of like a tip mid-flex with my fillet knives. So you can see where it bends, right there in the middle.
I keep it fairly thicker going a little bit back here because where you're flexing it is gonna be up and towards the tip.
So when you're grinding it, you pay a little, you know, you get a good amount of grinding there and then you can hold it a little bit longer there and you focus on the spot where you want the flex to be.
Because wherever you do more of that grinding, that's where you're removing more material, that's where the flex is gonna end up.

[38:45] Wow, that sounds nerve wracking. I mean just.
I mean, just even doing a full flat grind seems like nerve wracking because, you know, if your angles are off, you're going to see.
But I've heard from a number of people that doing it freehand and just kind of getting the feel for it is the way to go.
When you make a kitchen knife, are you spending different attention to the beauty of it because you're imagining it in a kitchen? Some of the handles look really very, very nice on the culinary knives.
So yeah, those, I actually take them up to a higher polish than I do my outdoor knives, mainly because the environment they're going to be in.
Most of the time you're going to be in a pretty controlled environment where you're not going to be as worried about it. And also a lot of these are showpieces. I mean, nobody needs a $400 chef knife. They want a $400 chef knife.
You know God bless them because I have a couple nice show pieces that I keep up on my knife rack And it's just nice to you know have that pretty piece that you could really you know cherish They're absolute workhorses don't get me wrong.

[39:54] But you know I try to take it up to that next level or even like something like this flay knife I actually normally I like to polish G Carter like this, but it's not a flay knife It's gonna be on the side of a boat,
You know I want to make sure my buddy Pete has a good grip on this thing So like it still looks gorgeous, but it still has that grip especially once it starts getting wet because you're in an environment where it's not as nice as just dropping on the cutting board in your house.
Right. Well, what kind of cooking do you do and what do you look for? What is the ideal kitchen knife for you? So I kind of like more like a western style chef knife. And it depends on what size I do. Like my 8-inch chef knife,
I keep it a little bit thicker behind the edge just because that's going to be more of a workhorse.
Where then with my 6-inch, I take it super, super fine, just so it like will glide through most of the vegetables and the fruits and everything that I'm cooking.
And you know, I've got a you know, a very, I wouldn't say I'm a chef, not by any means, but I do enjoy to cook. I do a lot of wild game cooking too, as you can imagine, because that's, you know, the majority of the proteins that I eat.
And that I've figured out how to like the boning style knife that I do. It's a little bit of a smaller version of my fillet knife. And you had to learn by actually getting in there, getting the curves, but it's tough to do those because you're hitting bone.

[41:16] So you got to make sure I try to do a convex edge on those guys said just the edge I could do on most of my knives There's good as I know that's gonna be bashing the bone all the time.

[41:25] And that convex edge is is more rounded sometimes It's called an apple seed edge and that makes it a little bit more robust, right? Yep.

[41:34] But I figured with most of my culinary knives I mean,
I think a lot of people end up like using the basic sharpeners or the guide to sharpen like a workshop or something else like that that it just keeps it very easy and simple because you know that's what people really want they just want it to know they just want to work and they just want to be easy to sharpen I've learned that from most of the average customers that I have.
You know, you were talking about how some of these chef's knives that you make might be considered wall hangers. They're a little bit more expensive.
They're larger. They're, you know, maybe not going to be someone's bang around daily driver in the kitchen.

[42:13] But I say, I say, and this is a brand new thought for me because I just got my first custom kitchen knife like two weeks ago and I'm shocked.
I have a giant collection of knives that only get appreciated.

[42:28] And then I have a decent set of kitchen knives that get used daily and have for the last 15 years, you know. And it just sort of occurred to me, what am I doing?
I need a couple of really nice, you know, kitchen knives. And it has made a tremendous difference.
And to me, if you're going to spend that money on a custom, that's the stuff, you know, how people get on your case when you're a knife collector about not using your knives. So that's the expensive knife you definitely should be using.
Well it makes a world of difference too because you realize, you know, oh that's how it's supposed to work. That's actually when my girlfriend first moved in with me and she started using some of my knives and she's like, oh, that's how they cut.
You don't just smush the tomato, it's supposed to slice. Yeah, yeah.
I've had people, you know, comment that the knives are too sharp. not just when I've handed people knives, this is too sharp, what are you used to cutting with? You know, pry bar.
Yeah, exactly. That's always my favorite comment, and it's like I never want people to hurt themselves, but they're like, yeah, your knife cuts, cuts real well,
because they might have been not using the best technique, and red stuff gets on the cutting board, and it's, oops, but you learn very quickly how a good quality knife with good edge geometry is actually supposed to work.

[43:51] So in your experience as a culinary enthusiast, have you found that knives are very useful?

[44:00] You buy at Bed Bath & Beyond whatever your Henkels, your Rostovs and stuff, do you think that they're thicker behind the edge than need be or just kind of built for banging around year after year,
and not maybe so refined? What are your opinions?
For me, I don't think so because look at the audience that it's going to. Not everybody is going to fully understand edge geometry and what you could use for what.
You know cuz i've seen geometry on the scene i've seen that i think is too thin but this is coming from me with like an outdoors and because it's great for going straight forward. What is the second you start carving and putting that others like lateral directional pressure on there that's how you can ship it pretty easily because i'm sure you also look at.
What the average person is doing in the kitchen.
They're probably banging around the knife, not using it probably, throwing it in the bottom of the kitchen sink, and probably put it in the dishwasher.
All things which are like gigantic no-nos.

[45:02] Now with those knives, you kind of want them to be because if somebody was to handle like say like my six inch chef knife and they were to bang it around, my neighbor down the road, they, I love them.
But the wife always uses it on the butter dish and the butter dish has rounded ceramic edges.
It comes back looking like a bread knife because the edge is so fine but when it gets pushed and rolled against that ceramic lip on the butter tray it chips it. So maybe sometimes you wouldn't mind
having that thicker edge because you wouldn't be chipping it as often. You might be dulling it but you won't be removing the metal completely from the picture. Right and therefore changing the
entire profile when you fix it. Exactly and then you're going up there anyway so you know it really It depends and because they have their higher end line, which I'm sure has much better geometry,
But the people buying that are also looking for that, you know All right, I feel like when you talk to a lot of everyday people that aren't you know bank junkies necessarily,
They they don't understand. They don't never heard of edge geometry They just want the light that works and you know, they'll realize what works and what doesn't and also they realize why is this so chippy?
I don't like this and then get something a little bigger behind that I think that people like on the whole just want a knife that stays sharp forever In terms of kitchen knives because they're not thinking about it. It is there, you know, it's it's a it's a tool.

[46:31] Means to an end and and they take.

[46:34] Rightly, so they've got their own interests. They are not knife junkies but you know, it's just a way to cut and get their meal on the table and,
So as long as I can cut this, I mean I know people people, plenty of people who have given away knives or were ready to give away knives to,
me because the edge is gone. I'm like, I could just sharpen this for you and you could have the back and use it. Really?

[47:00] Yeah, these are supposed to be sharpened. Yeah, it's funny because, you know, some people are just another tool that they don't even realize are using them. You know, is that my family's house Thanksgiving and they were carving the turkey with the go classic cut co.
And I could tell that it was quite dull.
But you know, my uncle did he just applied more force. So, you know, it's just a tool to them. They're not really thinking about it like we are.
But I feel like we think of them more as like performance items.
For other people, it's just another thing in the drawer.
So that's where the difference is. I've heard things boiled down to tools or obstacles for people. People included, you're either a tool for me or an obstacle for me and you're an obstacle that just means I can't use you right now.
And that's how people might see things like knives and other tools.
You know, this is just a thing and I can't imagine it because I spend so much time and effort and money on this hobby or on this collection. I mean to me the word hobby kind of doesn't even,
approach it but yeah, I mean it's not everyone's thing and not everyone's going to spend 400 bucks,
on a kids night but if they do they should use it. Well it's I realize too is a lot of people that Because when I first started out, I didn't have a big knife enthusiast customer base.

[48:30] They just thought there would be need to try it out. And I would talk to them about the uses of it and then we would buy it. And it would be like the realization like, Oh my god, that's how that's supposed to function. And then that's also how then you get more repeat customers with it because they learn to appreciate it and how well it's supposed to actually work. And then they realized,
what they were doing before was it was not working out the way it's supposed to.
Because like I said with my girlfriend, you're like, oh, that's how that works.
You know, so sometimes you need to actually put the quality tool in their hand to make them appreciate it.

[49:02] Right, right, right. And stop with all the weird knife talk and just let the knife speak for itself. Exactly.
It's just going to work. That's advice I could take for myself. So for you and Knives by Nuge, what is more, what are people coming to you for more?
Kitchen or the camp or the EDC.
I would say right now I am more camp and going actually further into the EDC realm. To be honest, I wasn't planning on getting into the EDC realm. I always EDC my knives anyway, but that wasn't
something that I was really focusing on first. But then I started having a lot of the EDC community reaching out to me about some of my smaller knives. I mean, even another very popular one that I do is called the chickpea. And I have one right here with a Scandi grind and burlap my card on it.
Be honest when I designed this night what I had in mind was the boy scouts I wanted to design a boy scout knife that was smaller full tang because they're always using those slip joints I've seen countless scouts cut their fingers on because they never lock they never were sharp,
and I wanted to make a more affordable small parable fixed blade and Then everybody started to EDC this and I'm like that's not where I saw the market going But Brian House from Housemaid sometimes talks about saying, hey, let the market take it where it will.
If the EDC community is about it, then that's what it is and go with it.

[50:31] But it's funny because it's not where my intention was, but that's what is now carrying it. Oh man, I would say absolutely, like I said right up front, that's a big thing for me is how do I, as a suburban guy living very close to a big urban center, get away with,
carrying fixed blades around?
I'm not carrying this around with me.
Unfortunately, I'd love to have a bowie on my hip all the time.
But so what kind of knives make sense for daily carry? And that has to do a lot with the design and how it just how it fits in the pocket or in the waistband. I like in the waistband carry.
Personally I know a lot of people love in the pocket with those little um.

[51:13] With the little leather pouches that have a place for your lighter and a place for your flashlight and a pen and that knife you were just holding up the chickpea could fit perfectly in
there are like Kniveship Free makes little pocket leather sheaths for little knives like that and I think that's great. I think I'm excited to see you succeeding with this because I want more people
to carry EDC fixed blades and if they're you know if they're awesome made by you that's even better but I think it's a great thing that that you're jumping on there. Yeah and one thing that I've
found and this is also from my previous employment that I realized if you really want a discrete carry neck knife is probably the most discreet you can get because a lot of guys on the job know where to look for weapons. Obviously that's just what keeps them safe and we all know what's on on that pocket clip on that ultimate clip, you know?
So like places like say, and I'm not saying break any laws, I am not follow whatever the local ordinances are.
However, neck knife carry just looks like a necklace on your neck and if you got it tucked in there, you know, it's not as obvious. So if like, if you're in a very urban area where knives are frowned upon, and you still wanna have something on you, that might be your best option.

[52:35] I am a big fan of neck knives and also, I mean, if you set it up right, it can be a very easily accessible tool or self-defense weapon with both hands.
That's a thing I think of in terms of self-defense. It's great if you land on the ground in such a way that you can reach your front right pocket, pull your knife and deploy it, that's great.
But what if you land on that pocket? Not only are you gonna break your hip, you're gonna have a nasty bruise and you're not gonna be able to get to your knife.

[53:08] I don't know that's that's something I think about a lot and it's just you know their mind exercises really but a neck knife seems to solve many of those problems. Where do you want to see Knives by Nuge in the future? Where do you want to see this? What size do you want to see this grow to.

[53:27] And what kind of production capability? I really want to up production that's one thing I want to to do. So right now I'm figuring out, I'm a one man show, but since I realized that I've learned
to outsource certain things, like something as simple as like heat and treat for my stainless steel. Tomorrow morning I'm sending out 104 knives to Paul Boss. Even if I had to kill him here to do all the stainless, that would still take about like probably at least four days to do by myself.

[53:55] Where he does it in like an hour. So, or whatever the longer it takes. He's pretty much got the the big conveyor belt that does it. So outsourcing certain things like having
items water jet cut instead of me cutting them all off by hand. Because then you get repeatability and uniformability. Another thing that I'm going to start
dabbling into soon, I haven't really talked about it too much except to a couple people and now we're on the lessons of this. I'm gonna be coming out with the
Wicked with CNC handle scales. So this is probably one of my most popular neck knives and pod carry knives and I would like to get, right now I don't take custom orders from just because they sell out so quickly. And I'm hoping to be able to get that CNC line of them where I would have a set of scales and then I would do all the blade work.
And then I would just hold on the hand of scales. Sheaths would be super easy to do because they'll all be uniform. And I'll be able to get a more affordable option. Then in a couple of years,
I'm hoping to have some people working for me. So I'm not doing all this by myself. And bigger space, more tools, more knives. Simple as that.

[54:57] Wow, right on. I love the idea of the water jetting and the CNC handles for just repeatability.

[55:07] And then how that will aid you in the kydex making. Kydex can be such a pain, man. I make kydex for my own knives in my collection from time to time. And yeah, just to be able to
have one or two sample models that you just make the same kydex, you know, use that as the same knife over and over without having to make it individual to each knife, speed,
things up.
That all sounds, that all sounds really good.
And then just as a tease, I have seen that you have a, that you're working on folders too. You have a friction folder that you have in the works or that you have already released.
I had a couple prototypes made. This is one of them. And that's why I smile when you're talking about the leather slip. I'm like I had it in my pocket right now.

[55:54] This is actually based off of my chickpea model. So pretty much the same size of blades a little bit shorter to take the hand scales further up.
So it's a very basic friction folder 90 degree spine all the way up to the top. So you actually scrape a ferro rod or a fat wood with the clothes like that and And it's going to come with an option to have the letter slip.
That's made by Ryan over at Failsafe Goods. So if you want one of those, you have to go to him. But the production run, we're going to be doing them in Nitro-B Stainless. So this first batch we did in 1095 and it's been working out great.
I love the thing so far. And nice part about this guy is the friction folders, as you can imagine, a lot of people don't like it because it doesn't have a lock. It's probably still safer than a slip joint in my opinion, because you can actually put your thumb on the spine while you're working it.
And we left that little hump up there. And right there, if you try to close it on your hand, if you have your hand all the way up in the finger choil, it's going to, you're going to hit that little choil right there before it ever gets close to the blade touching your hand.
That's great. Not only that, but when you're using the knife properly, you're going against that stop pin.
So that shouldn't really even be an issue unless you're doing some very rigorous activity in an emergency.
But in that case, you're pinching it and you have the little finger guard.
Exactly. That's really cool. I love friction folders and actually I would love to check that one out at some point. Well, Tom, I want to thank you for coming on the Knife Junkie Podcast.

[57:24] It's been a pleasure to meet you at last, having seen especially a lot of your EDC fixies. Like I said, those are what I fixate on these days and it's been a pleasure meeting you.
And I look forward to seeing how knives by Nuge grows in the future.
And those who are watching who are patrons, be sure to tune in. We're gonna continue this conversation and ask a couple of juicy questions as he mentioned earlier.
But Tom again, thanks again for joining us.

[57:55] Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. Don't take dull for an answer. It's the knife junkie's favorite sign off phrase and now you can get that tagline on a variety of merchandise,
like a t-shirt, sweatshirt, hoodie, long sleeve tee and more. Even on coasters, tote bags, a coffee mug, water bottle and stickers. Let everyone know that you're a knife junkie and
that you don't take dull for an answer. Get yours at theknifejunkie.com slash dull and shop for all your Knife Junkies merchandise at the knifejunkie.com slash shop. You know
you're a knife junkie if you love your knives more than your kids. There he goes ladies and gentlemen Tom Nugent of Knives by Nuge. I'm excited especially to
check out that friction folder but also those EDC fixed blades. You know how I feel about that. Especially when they're stylishly done and built with purpose. Be
Be sure to check us again next Sunday for another great interview and Wednesday for the Midweek Supplemental and Thursday for Thursday Night Knives, 10pm EST right here.

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[59:51] Music.