The Knife Junkie Podcast is the place for knife newbies and knife junkies to learn about knives and knife collecting. Twice per week Bob DeMarco talks knives. Call the Listener Line at 724-466-4487; Visit https://theknifejunkie.com.
©2024, Bob DeMarco
The Knife Junkie Podcast
https://theknifejunkie.com

Transcribe Your Podcasts and Videos: https://theknifejunkie.com/magic (affiliate link)

Announcer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob the knife junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:16]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast. I'm Bob DeMarco. On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with ABS master bladesmith James Rodobaugh. I was introduced to James by Matt Chase of Hogtooth Knives while at blade show 2024, and he's enamored with James' work. And coming from Matt, that means a lot to me as you probably know. After ambling over to his table at blade show, being gobsmacked by his beautiful knives, and then having a brief conversation with him, I saw immediately why Matt introduced me to James. I'm honored to have mister Rodobah on the show to talk about his life in knives. But first, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, hit the notification bell, and download the show to your favorite podcast app.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:59]:
And, we'll see you over at Patreon if you're interested in helping, helping out the show monetarily. Go over there and check out what we have to offer. It's a pretty great deal. Go to the knifejunkie.com/patreon. Again, that's the knifejunkie.com/patreon.

Announcer [00:01:15]:
Adventure delivered. Your monthly subscription for handpicked outdoor, survival, EDC, and other cool gear from our expert team of outdoor professionals. The knifejunkie.com/battlebox.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:28]:
James, welcome to the show.

James Rodebaugh [00:01:29]:
Thanks. I'm glad to be here. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:31]:
It's it's good to have you here. We had a brief conversation at blade show, but, as soon as you started telling me, like, I'll I'll come on your show, but first, I have to start on my Alaskan cabin. I was like, oh, man. I can't wait to talk to this guy.

James Rodebaugh [00:01:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. We just got back, actually. It was pretty brutal. The road ends about a half mile from the property, and we had to, basically, we were walking bear trails in with pretty heavy loads, and then we had a lot of clearing to do. Huge trees, probably a 180 foot tall, 36 inches or so through the through the trunk. One tree we cut, was actually 7 foot across at the at the root ball. Wow.

James Rodebaugh [00:02:22]:
So that was hard work. We didn't get the cabin built. We're gonna have to chop everything in next year, but we got the land cleared, built a, LZ for all of our materials, and, we'll get that done. I got to have to use a a knife or two while I was doing it, so it's pretty cool.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:42]:
Nice. So you you you went up to Alaska. You you brought materials up there, humped it in, and then you cleared an area and created an LZ for the helicopter that's gonna bring in the rest of your materials. It sounds, like you're going about this in a pretty methodical way. You wouldn't have happened to have served in the US Marine Corps, did you?

James Rodebaugh [00:03:03]:
Yeah. Yeah. I did 4 years in the corps, from 82 to 86, and it was a great thing for me. I was kind of a misguided youth, and and, it it kinda got me on the straight and narrow. So really a good deal for me.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:22]:
So does that mean you were always into knives, into, the outdoors, that kind of thing?

James Rodebaugh [00:03:29]:
My father was a very avid hunter and and gun dog trainer, and my grandfather was a fur buyer. So I grew up in a family of of woodsmen, outdoorsmen. I started hunting with a pellet gun when I was 7 and just kinda kept going. And here I am 53 years later, still doing the same thing. My toys are a little bit more expensive, but, you know, I'm still pretty much doing the same thing looking for adventure. I enjoy feeding my family and myself from from the forest and the fields. So kinda lifestyle for me.

Bob DeMarco [00:04:14]:
Yeah. Yeah. Always looking for adventure. So how how did knives work into this? How did it come to pass that you decided to make your professional life and, you know, that's obviously very personal about knives.

James Rodebaugh [00:04:28]:
Well, it it kinda happened by accident, really. While I was in the marine corps before I went overseas, my father happened to meet a gentleman named Jimmy Lyle. And dad bought a couple of Lyle knives, one for myself, one for my brother, and I carried that knife all over, Asia, North Africa, all over the United States. And I remember sitting under a big old tree while I was going through JES school, which is jungle environment survival training. And I was looking at that night, and I thought, you know, this is really cool. This guy's achieved a small measure of immortality. And and, of course, in the jungle, obviously, we were using knives. I was using a polo, and and that that was hand forged, and I thought, wow, it'd be really cool to do that someday.

James Rodebaugh [00:05:27]:
So, my son asked me if I could make him a knife, and I'd I'd beat a little knife out on a tiny amble on my vice with a claw hammer and a propane torch. And somebody saw it, so, wow, that's really cool. Can you make me one? And I did, and they were horrible. I mean, I hope nobody ever sees them. But I realized I didn't know enough to make a proper knife, and I start studying. For about 3 years, I read everything I could find on metallurgy and forging and design, and then I bought a forge and anvil and never looked

Bob DeMarco [00:06:08]:
back. You mentioned Jimmy Lyle, your first or one of your first knives given to you by your dad by Jimmy Lyle, and he's one of the he's he made the first Rambo knife. You know? He he's a legend, that guy.

James Rodebaugh [00:06:20]:
As a matter of fact, it was really cool. I had big props from the fellas over in Okinawa because First Blood came out, and they were all tripping on the Rambo knife. And I said, I've got a knife made by that guy. And they all thought I was, of course, lying, and and I showed them. So I I got some some pretty good strokes out of that.

Bob DeMarco [00:06:42]:
What what was that knife like? What did it look like?

James Rodebaugh [00:06:45]:
It was his smaller hunter, probably a orange blade, antique ivory micarta. Oh, wow. His, pouch style sheet, he had another name for it. I forget what it was called. I still have the knife. It was stolen at one point when I was in the marine corps, and I ended up finding the guy that did it and and got it back. So Nice. Nice.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:17]:
I'd love to hear the story about that sometime. Maybe in the interview extras for, for our Patreon members. But you mentioned while you're sitting there, in Okinawa looking at this Lyle, Lyle knife that you're like you had this realization, wow. This man achieved some level of immortality. What did you mean by that?

James Rodebaugh [00:07:34]:
Well, Jimmy's been gone a long time now. But if you're a knife guy, you know who Jimmy Lyle is. He he has achieved his name, at least, and his reputation as a maker has achieved a level of immortality. Some a legacy, if you will. And I

Bob DeMarco [00:07:55]:
think that's really cool. Is there is there something about making, something with the sort of permanence of a knife that, makes it a worthwhile makes it a more worthwhile creative pursuit to you? I mean, we're gonna get to everything about it. I I guess I'm I'm jumping in a little deep here, but but we're here already, and and it's like, you know, you can make a painting, and it's useful, for looking at and considering and and admiring, but you can't cut a sandwich with it or skin a deer.

James Rodebaugh [00:08:28]:
So for me to create functional art, I'm a bladesmith, master bladesmith, but I'm a pretty serious admirer of buying sporting arms. And and those guns are amazingly functional. They're the epitome of the gun makers are, and they're unbelievably useful in the field. So my ethos in knife making kind of revolves around that. I'm inspired by the guns that I own and use, and my I tried to reflect that level of of usefulness and art into mine eyes.

Bob DeMarco [00:09:20]:
You're talking about these rifles to me, and it's like the one of the guns we were talking about behind you, but also, like, the very expensive bird guns that I've seen with beautiful wooden furniture and carvings and Mhmm. And all that kind of thing. Is is this this is the kind of thing that inspires you?

James Rodebaugh [00:09:39]:
Absolutely. I've been very fortunate in my life. I've I've done very well for a high school dropout that went in the Marine Corps at 17, and I've been able to afford the type of firearms that I enjoy, and they're fairly high dollar. I I collect English field guns, and I collect also German sporting arms. But though I say I collect them, they are all used in the field. I don't have a SAIT Queen, in the lot. They are all used.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:22]:
Okay. So let's let's let's start from the beginning of your career. Let's let's find out how you actually got into knives and how where you start. I mean, you told me that you you beat out a blade on a an anvil that was integrated into your vice. But how did the how'd you make the decision to really dive in?

James Rodebaugh [00:10:42]:
So, at the time, I was working for the Department of Justice Federal Bureau of Prisons. And I've been doing it for, I think, at that point, right around 11 or 12 years, something like that. And I I needed something to relax with after the long day. And forging for me was an escape from that. As time went on, I got a little better and I got some help from a gentleman named Elman T. Barton, ABS Master Bladesmith. And as I started to refine my work, at the same time that was occurring, I was getting I was bringing the job home. I was bringing it outside the wall, so to speak.

James Rodebaugh [00:11:41]:
You might imagine that that kind of job doesn't lend itself to being to trusting people, to take in any kind of gut from anybody. And and I didn't like who I was becoming. And I really had no no other skills, other than a pretty fair hand in a in a kitchen. And my wife said, you need to get out of that. Why don't you go full time? And and I laughed and I said, you know, the odds of me being able to support family on a knife maker salary are slim and none. And she said, well, I can handle it until you can sell enough knives to to provide. And so off I went. I left in 1999.

James Rodebaugh [00:12:38]:
January of 99, I became a full time maker, and never looked back, actually.

Bob DeMarco [00:12:46]:
So you said, federal corrections. Does that mean you were working, full time in prisons and and that environment, you didn't like what it was turning you into?

James Rodebaugh [00:12:55]:
Yeah. I mean, it it's a it's a negative environment. I mean, you're surrounded by guys that are separated from their families. Some of them are really good guys that made one mistake. Some of them are really bad guys that need to be behind bars maybe forever. And when you're dealing with that, it it it can affect you. You can never let your guard down. I had 3 contracts put on me in the entire time I worked there.

James Rodebaugh [00:13:32]:
None of them obviously were ever fulfilled. But it's just a negative environment in general. There were a few bright spots in that. There were a couple of of inmates that after I left the bureau, I ran into one of them. The other one contacted me, and they're still very good friends of mine to this day. Good good guys.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:03]:
So there's a you noticed a marked difference, obviously, from being in a prison all day and doing your job there and then coming home and beating on hot steel. What was the if if you kinda just gave us a picture of the mindset of being in the prison, what what is the mindset that you gained from doing the knife making? And then how did that, you know, how did that carry you forward?

James Rodebaugh [00:14:29]:
So for me, the independence of being a bladesmith, I'm somewhat of a hermit. I like people. I just kinda like them in small doses. And for me, the solitude of it, being able to just lose yourself in the process of creating and and then at the end of it, have a tool that, you know, a person can that they can set their life on. That is really cool to be able to do. And I just I feel like it's a it's an art that was being lost until Bill Moran, you know, kind of fired things up again. And there were other gentlemen involved as well with that. But it's saving a crap that was on its way out at least in this country.

James Rodebaugh [00:15:33]:
And the knife is, you know, probably the probably the only tool that all of us will use at least once, twice, perhaps 3 times a day from people many more. That that really kinda tickles me too. I'm producing something. I'm not I'm not taking. I'm producing. And that and that's super important to me.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:00]:
You mentioned, how Bill Moran, kind of brought back, the art of knife making and definitely Damascus steel making. And you're referring to the birth, I would assume, of the ABS, American Bladesmith Society. I know Bill Bagwell, who's one of my favorite I love his bowies. Yeah. I know he was also in on the ground floor of that.

James Rodebaugh [00:16:23]:
Absolutely. He's one of the founders. Mhmm.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:25]:
And and you are are yourself a master bladesmith, and there are not too many of you. It is a very rigorous, and and, thorough process, and you're making some incredible knives that have to perform incredibly, to to pass. Tell me about your experience with the American Bladesmith Society, how you got involved and and, your involvement.

James Rodebaugh [00:16:47]:
So, I went to my first hammer in 1 week after I went full time in 99, and it was an ABS hammer in out in California where I was at at the time. And I was exposed to a number of different mastersmiths, Kim Hancock, Harvey Dean. Gosh. Who else was there? Can't remember who all else, but I know that Tim and Harvey really made an impression on me because of their knives. They were amazing. And I was fortunate enough to actually work with both of them at, you know, on at their amble at that Hamren. And and Al Barton, who was the gentleman that I was apprenticing under at the time, was also an ABS master bladesmith. And it it just it was a goal for me.

James Rodebaugh [00:17:47]:
My father asked me where I intended to go with this craft. And, I said, well, I'm gonna be one of the best in the world. That was what I hope for, and I'm still hoping for. I'm still trying to to reach that level. Master Smith is kind of the beginning really. It just, you know, you've gotten to that point and you are very good at what you do, but there's so much room to improve always. Look at these young guys that are coming up now. They're amazing.

James Rodebaugh [00:18:29]:
And us old guys got a hump to keep up with them.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:31]:
Well, they're they're standing on the shoulders of giants, for sure, in yourself and others. It's funny you say that, being a master bladesmith is just the beginning because I've heard a lot of martial arts instructors say, like, getting your black belt, that that's the beginning. That's, now you know how to walk. You've been crawling this whole time. And I think I think a lot of them meant to say, like, now is the point where you can be creative with this because you've mastered all of the process oriented stuff.

James Rodebaugh [00:19:01]:
Right. I I would say that's a really apt analogy of it. You know, bladesmithing is in it has many common denominators with martial arts. It takes discipline, takes self awareness. You have to be able to look at your work critically, and and you should be your hardest critic. If you're not, you may not attain the levels that you would like to.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:34]:
Yeah. It's it's funny

James Rodebaugh [00:19:35]:
when you

Bob DeMarco [00:19:35]:
see someone's scrap pile, someone that you admire and you see their scrap pile. What are you doing? Like, I'd buy this. What are you doing? Like, no. That's not up to my, level of expectation from my own work. You know?

James Rodebaugh [00:19:50]:
I I have that happen so often. I've got knives sitting in the shop, and, you know, man, that's beautiful. You know, is that for sale? And, I say, no. It's got it's got flaw in it. And and they can't see it, but I can see it. And, you know, if only one of your knives survives, you know, 200, 300, 400, a 1000 years from now, that's the knife you're gonna be judged by. Yeah. So I you know, look, I'm not gonna, you know, tell you I make perfect knives.

James Rodebaugh [00:20:28]:
I don't. But every knife that I make, I'm trying to make better than the last one.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:34]:
Well, what so what is your definition of a good knife? How do you, how do you judge your own work, and how do you judge other people's work?

James Rodebaugh [00:20:42]:
So, number 1, your design. The design has to carry the knife. You can put all the fancy materials you want on a knife, but if it doesn't have the lines and form follows function. So if if you can get that right, the next step is to work on your fit and finish, of course. And I look for for or as close to perfection as humanly possible in the fit between the different materials incorporated in the knife. I look for flow. And then most important, it has to function as a knife. I see a lot of really beautiful knives from, you know, even right up close.

James Rodebaugh [00:21:42]:
But then you look at the edge geometry and the edge geometry is too obtuse. The blade is too thick for the purpose it's intended for. The handle looks great in profile, but it's blocky or clunky. Everything that you should take away everything from the knife that's not necessary for the knife to perform. It it's like a fine shotgun or or rifle. There's nothing there that doesn't have to be. And then once you hit that correctly, then you can embellish. But if you don't have the the base product correct and you embellish it, well, you're just putting pearls on a pig in my head.

James Rodebaugh [00:22:34]:
Yes.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:34]:
Yes. This is this is why I never trust an abstract painter if I can't see them doing it, like an excellent portrait. You don't get you don't get to do that.

James Rodebaugh [00:22:45]:
Right. Yeah. And, you know, the I think that's one of the cool things about being a knife maker. At least making the type of knives that I like to make. Those knives are gonna be used. And the most some of the most beautiful knives I've ever made, the most highly embellished, my customers take them in the field, and they work them. And if they don't perform right, I'll hear about it for sure.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:14]:
Well, do you have any knives in front of you that you can show us so we have some idea of what you're talking about?

James Rodebaugh [00:23:19]:
I do. Just getting having gotten back from Alaska, I'm behind the 8 ball, but I've got a couple of knives. One is a large buoy that I actually bought back from my collector. This was the last night to win the Bill Moran War award directly from Bill Moran. Woah. And I bought it back, and I don't know if you can see that. It won, night of the year in the southwestern booty category for the Murano board. Oh, man.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:55]:
Wait. Wait. Wait. Okay.

James Rodebaugh [00:23:57]:
Alright. Alright.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:58]:
I have a lot to say here, but I have to first of all, that is, like, so beautiful. It's it's I mean, just looking at it don't put it away. Just looking at it, it's sort of a dream Bowie to me, but I've only glanced at it. I love the s guard. I love the coffin handle. I love the stag, and I know that seeing it up close, I would love everything else about it. But, you said it won in the best southwestern Bowie category. What is that?

James Rodebaugh [00:24:23]:
So every year at blade show, they'll they'll pick a Moran style of knife. And and that year, it happened to be southwestern Bowie. And so I was competing against guys like Harvey Dane, Tim Hancock, Ron Newton. We're all in that, and and I ended up being fortunate enough to win the competition. It was a big deal for me. Still is, actually.

Bob DeMarco [00:24:53]:
So what inspired you to buy it back?

James Rodebaugh [00:24:58]:
I don't really know. I wanted it back. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:25:00]:
I hear that.

James Rodebaugh [00:25:02]:
I want to keep it. And and so when at the award ceremony that night, this is kinda cool, mister Moran, you know, called me down to receive my plaque. And then shortly thereafter, they were having the auction at our banquet. And a gentleman that had painted Mike Huckabee for the governor's office in Arkansas had also painted Bill Moran, and you can see that painting right behind me. They opened the bidding at $600, and I did, and nobody bid against me. So I got it. And that was really cool. And then, unfortunately, the next year, mister Moran passed on.

James Rodebaugh [00:25:54]:
And I was asked to write a memorial in in the journal in the ABS journal for him. So I have denied the painting, and the journal. That's yeah. It's kinda cool. It's it's kind kinda like one of my treasures for sure.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:11]:
Yeah. A a real like, one of the major feathers in your cap in your career, I'm sure. Yeah. If you if you hold that up, can you tell us what, what makes this a Southwestern Bowie as opposed to anything else? Another cap.

James Rodebaugh [00:26:25]:
You can see it's got a a reasonably long clip that quite a bit of belly in it, and there's a slight rise before it drops into the clip. The coffin handle, and then the half penny guard. This would be generally thought of as as a pretty typical southwestern buoy. And it's it's a big night, but it's not super heavy. A little heavier than I would typically like, but the stag to get it that wide, I had to it's a little thicker than I would typically make a handle. Mhmm. You can see I have to roll it in, to match the barrel there. But it, it's a neat knife.

James Rodebaugh [00:27:13]:
It feels really good. I'm pretty sure you could lop an arm or a leg off of it easy. It's it's a cutting implement for sure. I I tend towards lighter knives these days as I've gotten more advanced. You know, we're talking almost 20 years ago that I made this knife. And and I just the spine of this knife is about a quarter inch or a little more. And, you know, the older knives, the knives of the of the the era were typically quite heavy. I like a little bit lighter night these days.

James Rodebaugh [00:27:57]:
I I think they're faster and and much more elegant.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:02]:
Oh, yeah. Easier to use. You mentioned flow before, when when you're saying, one of the ways you, evaluate a knife when you're checking it out is something one of the words you used is flow. How would you describe what you mean by that while holding up that beautiful Bowie?

James Rodebaugh [00:28:19]:
I can describe it easily. So what I want to see is I want the knife to give the impression of motion. I want it to look like a sports car or a super fast boat. I want that knife to look like it's meant to move. That's what I look for in in my eyes. You know, unless I'm doing a very specific design that may not lend itself to that. Good example is a Nesma style hunting knife. Pretty ugly knife.

James Rodebaugh [00:28:54]:
Works great in the field. Yeah. You know, they they work fantastic, but they're not the prettiest knife in the world. A buoy, a fighter, and and a hover as well, if it's done correctly, can give that impression of motion. And, you know, a lot of time when you're in the field hunting, it's a waiting game. And, you know, it helps if you have a really nice bow or a really nice knife or really nice shotgun or rifle or all of the above. So that when things get a bit boring or you need to you need to wait for a bit, you've got something to keep your mind occupied. You can get it out, take a look at it, and it brings you joy.

James Rodebaugh [00:29:46]:
And I've spent many hours doing just that.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:50]:
Well, so this knife, before you or the knife that you're holding in your hand, I can't tell from here whether that's, a monosteel or if that's,

James Rodebaugh [00:30:00]:
it's monosteel. Mhmm.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:02]:
So let's let's talk about your process. You you are a forger. You forge knives. When you and and design is very important to you as you indicated earlier. Do you draw the designs out on paper and then walk into the forge and then try and nail the design that you've drawn, or do you does it come alive while you're doing it?

James Rodebaugh [00:30:22]:
Well, it's a little bit of both. So many, many years ago, Tim Hancock and I were designing an introductory introduction to forging or bladesmithing course for Sierra Fire and Forge out in California. And we we had to figure out how to teach these guys to forge a blade and, you know, up to a very high level in a week. And so one of the things we came up with is to make a pattern, which we made it out of Lexan, and then we would put that on the anvil and trace it with a Sharpie. And and then you forge until it touches the the lines all the way around. I call it forging to your blueprint, not blueprinting to your forge. I actually got that phrase from a gentleman named Wade Coulter. That's a master bladesmith as well and an unbelievably talented.

Bob DeMarco [00:31:26]:
Well, when you're when you're, smithing bladesmithing, I guess I've always kinda wondered but never really thought too much about it. But, you know, there are levels of purity that some people, in an art form or in a craft, try to seek out of, a desire to adhere to some rigid, process that was laid out before them, and then and then, others who kinda strike out on their own. And when I think of this, I think of things like, whenever I've watched Forged in Fire, and I don't know how you feel about the show. I love it. But whenever I see someone, for instance, drifting in holes for in their tang

James Rodebaugh [00:32:09]:
Mhmm.

Bob DeMarco [00:32:09]:
That they're gonna use to put pins through, I'm always like, oh, that guy that guy knows what he's doing. Like, he's he's doing it 100% as opposed to sometimes you'll see guys cutting out stuff with an angle grinder and heating it up and banging it and then drilling the holes, and I just wonder. Like, I see you smiling. Like, do you follow a purity thing like that? Or

James Rodebaugh [00:32:30]:
Well, the reason I'm smiling is, when I first got into this, I was in the process of building a power hammer. And my father got on me about it. He said, hey, did it by hand for, you know, a 1000 years before, and it's really unique that you do this all by hand. I had just a hammer, an anvil, or a forge at the time. And I said that, yeah, they didn't do it by hand all that time. They have lift hammers. They have water powered hammers. They have drop hammers.

James Rodebaugh [00:33:07]:
They also had apprentices. Manpower was cheap. As a one man shop, you have to learn to maximize your time. I forged very close to shape because it saves me time on the grinder, And I love the forging process. That being said, the goal is to make a superlative knife, and I will do what I have to do to produce that knife. If if that means, you know, drilling the holes in the tang instead of hot punching them, then I'll do that. And and but that being said, you as a master Smith, you have to be capable of doing all that hot work. And my first mentor, Al Barton, was big on that.

James Rodebaugh [00:34:07]:
He was brutal on me. I never I never did good enough. And I thank him for that to this day. He was really big on making me forge close to shape, learn how to use the hammer. He said you should when you get off that anvil with that blade, it should be just about done. And that being said, there's a few caveats to that. For certain Damascus patterns where you don't want to disrupt the pattern, you're better off forging your profile and not forging your edge bubbles in. So it's it's all dependent upon what the end result needs to be.

James Rodebaugh [00:34:57]:
If forging enhances that, then you should do it. If it doesn't enhance it, what's the point? That's kind of where I'm at with it. And if you're if you're a person out there that's just getting into this crap, Remember, a good friend of mine calls it building in a wreck. Sometimes you need to leave a little extra meat in there so you can bring everything in to as close to perfection as possible. So you want to leave some leeway. Don't expect to forge the blade right down to almost final in the beginning. It takes a long time and it takes, you know, dedication. That being said, it's very satisfying when you do it.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:53]:
So you mentioned kinda 2 goals, in, you know, kinda general theoretical goals. 1 is making a superlative knife. That's not theoretical. We know that you're capable of doing that. The other thing is efficiency. You mentioned something about being as efficient maximizing your time as possible. What what's the conflict between creating the superlative knife but also being efficient?

James Rodebaugh [00:36:19]:
You know, I don't know that there's there is a conflict, actually. For me, I just go seamlessly from one part to the other. I and and that I enjoy all the processes. You know, I have machine tools that I use for certain tasks. You know, I have a surface grinder. That being said, I can make a spiron of knife completely by hand. And I've had, I guess, 4 customers in my career that paid the money to have me do that. But very few people wanna pay what a knife like that costs.

James Rodebaugh [00:37:09]:
And, you know, as you get up, as your level of proficiency gets higher and your name is recognized, your prices rise accordingly. But the market share becomes much smaller. So I guess what I'm trying to say is be versatile. Be willing to make, you know, the the 5 to $900 hunting knife and be capable of making the 5 to $15,000, you know, buoy, dagger, arc night, whatever. You have to you have to be able to do it all. That's kind of the cool thing about it. You have to be multi talented. You wear a lot of different hats.

James Rodebaugh [00:38:05]:
You know? You work with leather. You work with wood. You work with ivory. You work with steel. You work with laminate steel. Some guys work with, you know, their own crucible steel. It's a I mean, I don't know how you get bored doing this, really.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:22]:
I, I asked Matt, Matt Chase

James Rodebaugh [00:38:27]:
Mhmm.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:27]:
3 years ago now. He made a custom. This was, by the way, commissioned by my father, so it was, not something that I worked out for, but my dad was very happy to do so, and he, commissioned a sub hilt, fighter, a Loveless, my favorite knife pattern of all time. Loveless, sub hilt fighter. For

James Rodebaugh [00:38:50]:
Matt bear or

Bob DeMarco [00:38:51]:
Yeah. Yeah. A big bear. Matt had never made one. I wanted stag, and he and it was a real learning process for him. And and it was interestingly, it was done on a on a knife that he had never made before, but he's making it for a paying customer. And that's kind of a cool thing because it allows you to explore.

James Rodebaugh [00:39:12]:
You

Bob DeMarco [00:39:12]:
know, as long as you're you know you're good enough to do it, it allows you to explore a new kind of knives.

James Rodebaugh [00:39:17]:
Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, you know, I've had so many clients subsidize my learning curve. You know, they've asked for a knife. I wasn't sure if I could do it. And it pushed me. And it made me a better knife maker. Sometimes I had to make the knife 3 or 4 times till I was satisfied with it, and I didn't make any money on it.

James Rodebaugh [00:39:41]:
But I've learned, and that's priceless, you know. So it's it's a it's a super cool thing to have happen.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:51]:
So, what what part of the process, of making a knife soup to nuts? What's your favorite part? And then what's your least favorite part? I don't know if you have one of those. But

James Rodebaugh [00:40:03]:
I think I think my favorite part is obviously forging it. Next would become would be designing it. My least favorite part is usually grinding the handle because it makes a mess. But it's it's also what can quite often take a pretty common blade and turn it into something special. So I used to hate making cheese and I I worked with Ron Long a little bit. Ron helped me a bunch. And and now I enjoy making cheese, kind of a kind of a nice break, actually.

Bob DeMarco [00:40:51]:
So, yeah, you've mentioned your customers a couple of times. So who who are your customers and what, what are they reporting back from the field?

James Rodebaugh [00:41:02]:
So I have customers from all walks of life. I have one customer that is phenomenally wealthy. I don't know if he's Bill Gates wealthy, but he's not far off. And, he's a he's a gun guy. He heard about me from from a gun maker. And, I would say most of my collectors are are hunters, that have, you know, a pretty good, make a pretty good living. And and what I'm hearing in the field from these guys, you know, I'm hearing 2 elk completely skinned and butchered, and it was still shaven, but not quite as good as it was when I got it. When I hear that, I'm pretty happy with that.

James Rodebaugh [00:42:05]:
Haven't butchered a few off in my day. It can be hard on night. Those poles rolling in the wallows, and they got grit in their hair, and it's a big animal. So if you can do 2 elk before you got it, and it's still shaving, but not quite as good as it was. Yeah. I'm pretty happy with that. Not to say that I'm not pushing for it to still be popping there like it was when he got it, but you have to be realistic. Steel is steel.

James Rodebaugh [00:42:46]:
You can you can only bring a steel to a certain level. You know, you you can there's there's a there's a cap on what you can get that steel to do. Some of the newer steels coming out will hold an edge for a very, very long time. I've used some of those steels just in knives that I've taken into the field. I've not found anything really that that performs better than a really good high carbon steel blade That's properly heat treated. I think, you know, to quantify the differences between, you know, the steel of the month and let's just say 1 which happens to be one of my favorite steels. Both being properly heat treated. I don't I don't think you can necessarily tell the difference in the field except the old one will sharpen a little easier.

James Rodebaugh [00:43:58]:
You put it in a, you know, in a laboratory and under controlled circumstances And the the Super Steel may may get 10 or 20% more cuts, perhaps. But that also comes at a price because they quite often won't have the durability. And and what I see is that often the edge geometry will suffer in the higher end skills of the month, so to speak, because they're worried about it not being able to take the impact or the flexing. That being said, I just came out with a production knife, and it's it's m 390, and I'm really happy with it.

Bob DeMarco [00:44:58]:
Okay. I wanna talk about that, obviously, in a in a quick second, but I wanted to ask you this, about Damascus. Is there any benefit beyond the the sheer beauty of it, with having in terms of cutting it, is there any cutting benefit to Damascus?

James Rodebaugh [00:45:14]:
You know, I I think that's really hard to quantify. My gut feeling is, that Damascus cuts a bit more aggressively, but I don't think it cuts longer. It it has a thirstier edge sometimes. But I think, you know, I make my Damascus and most of the guys out there these days make their Damascus out of really good cutlery grade steels, both the bright steel and the the dark steel. And it's gonna perform as good as the steels that are used in it as long as they're properly heat treated. I'm perfectly happy taking either one end of the field. The one benefit I see with Damascus is, you know, you take a nicely satin finished carbon steel blade into the field, and eventually it's going to get a patina on it. I don't I don't mind that.

James Rodebaugh [00:46:23]:
Damascus will get a patina as well, but you can knock the high spots off and it will look like brand new. So that is one benefit of Damascus. And and then, you know, the the artistic freedom that Damascus gives you, your freedom of expression with the steel. And it's one of a kind. It is absolutely one of a kind. I mean, the best Damascus makers I know cannot absolutely reproduce exactly the same pattern every single time. You know, they make 3 ladder pattern blades. They'll be very close in appearance.

James Rodebaugh [00:47:13]:
But when you start looking at and counting the wrongs, you'll come up with a different count, quite often. And I I may be talking outside of my neck here, but that's been my experience.

Bob DeMarco [00:47:29]:
So you dropped production knife a few minutes ago. Let's talk about this. Tell me about your production knife and what this was like. I mean, to me, you're you're so in your you know, I imagine you in your forge all the time. What's this?

James Rodebaugh [00:47:42]:
So, it was a really long journey. I I wanted to build a folder that I would want to carry. And and I'm pretty picky. And I I want to come up with a lock that would get better with time, not worse. So I I designed a knife. It's a full size folding hunter. It's called the Rodebaugh Infinity Lock, and it's it's pretty amazing. I love it.

James Rodebaugh [00:48:25]:
And it's super light. It's super thin, and still very, very, very strong. As the lock wears, it engages more. It just gets better over time. I based it on Browning Satori lock. And

Bob DeMarco [00:48:48]:
Is this a firearm, Browning Satori?

James Rodebaugh [00:48:50]:
Yeah. A Browning Satori. Yeah. It's a over under shotgun, and they they have a reputation for just lasting forever. And so I made this thing, in my in my shop, and and then I I went through 2 different people trying to produce it here in the US, and and they either couldn't or wouldn't do it. So I ended up going to China with this. And and I I bought that, actually, for 7 years. But I couldn't find anybody that would manufacture it to my specifications.

James Rodebaugh [00:49:32]:
And and that's kind of a sad commentary right now. But that being said, if you're willing to pay for quality, they'll give you everything you pay for and then so on.

Bob DeMarco [00:49:46]:
This looks right up my alley. Beautiful. So the does how does the lock is that on top? Does it engage and disengage them?

James Rodebaugh [00:49:54]:
So the beauty of this is it's just so easy to manipulate. It just it's super easy. You can use the the thumb stud. I have them on there, but I never use it. I just lick it and pop it back in.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:10]:
Who's the manufacturer you have? Or or do you not, disclose?

James Rodebaugh [00:50:14]:
I don't disclose that.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:15]:
Okay. That's fine. That's fine.

James Rodebaugh [00:50:17]:
At this point, anyway. I'm just getting the company going. So

Bob DeMarco [00:50:21]:
Yeah. Some for for some people, that's their that's a selling point. I know you don't need that as your selling point at this stage in your career, but I know some people like to talk about it.

James Rodebaugh [00:50:30]:
So thought

Bob DeMarco [00:50:31]:
I'd ask. But, is the one in your hand, did you make that yourself, or is that because I believe you had that at Blade Show this year. Didn't you have this night?

James Rodebaugh [00:50:39]:
This is the production night, and that's what I've been carrying since just before Blade Show. Actually, this is the first time this has been really close to daylight. I haven't officially released this yet. I'm working on website right now. I'm waiting on photography. And I'll have these well, they're available now. You can contact me at my email. But, and, so far, they're going great.

James Rodebaugh [00:51:10]:
I've got them out into the hands of some guys that are really well, they're knife makers. They're knife makers. And they they'll cut me no slack. And I'm getting super good reviews. So I'm really confident. Congratulations. Yeah. I I love the knife.

James Rodebaugh [00:51:25]:
And and that that says something. I mean, I know because I designed it and everything, I may be biased. But Hold it

Bob DeMarco [00:51:35]:
up so we can see it some more. Hold it up to your camera. Look at that. Okay. So you got contoured carbon fiber. You got a very nice, profile on that handle. The lock engages and disengages on the top. You've got a harpoon clip point.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:48]:
Beautiful blade. Perfect termination of the of the edge, you know, and the and the plunge grind. A lot of people will be happy about that. Some people hate resharpening their knives because of how the how the plunge grind terminates.

James Rodebaugh [00:52:00]:
That drives me crazy. When we call them chicken lips. So when when a guy leaves chicken lips on his knife, it serves no purpose. And if you have those, you're it makes it hard to sharpen as you just said. There's no reason to have that.

Bob DeMarco [00:52:22]:
You're talking about little flanges on the side, the chicken lips?

James Rodebaugh [00:52:26]:
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We call them chicken lips.

Bob DeMarco [00:52:29]:
I love that. I haven't heard that term yet.

James Rodebaugh [00:52:31]:
Yeah. I I hate them. We make fun of guys that have those. Thank you. Not to their face.

Bob DeMarco [00:52:39]:
Of course not. So, in in this in this folder wait. What do you call in your folder again?

James Rodebaugh [00:52:45]:
It's the Infinity lock. The Infinity lock.

Bob DeMarco [00:52:47]:
So what were you what were you going for? What were your design requirements?

James Rodebaugh [00:52:53]:
Well, it had to be super light, under 3 ounces. I think these come in at 2.3 or 2.4, something like that. That's

Bob DeMarco [00:53:04]:
real light.

James Rodebaugh [00:53:05]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. And, it had to be strong, had to be able to take some lateral, pressure. The lock had to be fail safe, and it had to be comfortable. And and that this knife kinda has all of that. I I really like the knife. If if you came up to me and I didn't know anything about this and you said, hey, check out this knife, I'd ask how much you want for it, for sure.

James Rodebaugh [00:53:42]:
So Well,

Bob DeMarco [00:53:43]:
how much do you want for it? Or or is that not, settled yet?

James Rodebaugh [00:53:47]:
Well, right now, I'm selling them at 3.49, but I believe that's probably gonna end up in the the wholesale price. I've I've had too many guys say that it it should be 5, $600. I could be wrong. You know, I don't know. But that's the price. 3.49 is the price right now. That could move around a little bit, but I didn't wanna price it, you know, I didn't wanna make I'm not trying to make a 1,000,000 off this thing. I'm trying to get a good knife out there at a honest price.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:24]:
Yeah. I mean, that's gotta be a very difficult thing is figuring out how to price the knife because, a lot of time goes into designing. A lot of time goes into, you know, marketing and back and forth with the company and this and that. But then, at the same time, you also have to see the waters you're swimming in and what are other people, making similar knives with similar profile oh, you know, whatever. What are they charging? And, you know, what's the market? That's gotta be very difficult.

James Rodebaugh [00:54:54]:
It is. And and and I'm still not, you know, firm on it. So we've got, about 30 left of the first hundred. And, I've got another 200 on order, and 100 of those are going to be about I forget what the reduction was. I think it was a 20 27% or 28% reduction in size. Oh, okay. So what we are finding is the larger knife, this knife, guys really like it, but women don't. Their pockets tend to be shorter.

James Rodebaugh [00:55:40]:
Yep. And and this doesn't fit safely in their pockets. They're afraid they'll lose it. And so my wife is an outdoors woman as well, and she's a hairdresser. And she comes in contact with lots of ladies and and quite a number of them are outdoors women as well. And they all love the night and ask if they could get it a little small. So, I'll have a 100 of these full sized and then the smaller ones available in about 3 months.

Bob DeMarco [00:56:19]:
Well, you definitely have the light part down. I know, just speaking from, my wife, she loves to carry slim, light knives. And then as you mentioned, it can't be too big because they Yeah. They don't they don't give them much for pockets.

James Rodebaugh [00:56:33]:
No. They don't. You know? There's just not enough depth Yeah. To their pockets. And and, you know, I myself typically prefer a smaller night, but I meant this to be a primary. I carried this the whole time I was in Alaska. I used it cut and false azalea and blueberry and huckleberry. I don't know how many times.

James Rodebaugh [00:57:03]:
I think I touched it up one time while I was up there. And and I was just super happy with it. Yeah. I know that. If I was out there listening to this, I'd I'd be saying all that.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:18]:
Of course he is.

James Rodebaugh [00:57:20]:
You know? Right. But the guys that know me know that I'm hard on myself, and and I don't BS. Although, I might BS on fishing and hunt stories, but

Bob DeMarco [00:57:32]:
not You should've seen it.

James Rodebaugh [00:57:35]:
Right. So but not on knives. I'm very, very happy with it.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:41]:
Alright, James. Before I let you go, we're coming up, we're coming up on that moment. But before I let you go, I wanna ask you I I ask this sometimes with people, especially those who forge knives, I find. But if there's anything that you haven't forged but you wanna forge, you wanna make something in the future, whether it's a sword or, you know, I don't know, a certain kind of knife from history, you've done it all. I mean, knowing the 5 knives you had to make for your master smith alone, I mean, that spiral fluted handed dagger and all that. Like, that stuff is crazy. But is there anything that you've always had an inkling to build that you haven't yet

James Rodebaugh [00:58:17]:
you wanted some of that? There's a couple things. I've always wanted to build kind of a family sword, Something to pass down. And and, I I haven't it'll be Germanic, because that's my heritage. I haven't it's either gonna be a Zweihander or perhaps a bombardier blade. I I'm not sure yet.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:46]:
And the wavy the wavy blade, the flamberge still?

James Rodebaugh [00:58:48]:
Yeah. Mhmm. Okay. Yeah. So I would at some point, I would like to take the time to do that. I'm hoping that this thing will allow me to kinda delve off into some of those those more esoteric pursuits. And the other thing I would love to do and and is is make a Damascus flintlock and forge the barrel and then put a Bowie knife and a hawk with it as a set. And that will be years, 2, 3 years, maybe more of labor.

James Rodebaugh [00:59:31]:
You know, making the lock completely by hand, making the barrel completely by hand. And it won't be for sale. That'll be for me.

Bob DeMarco [00:59:40]:
Oh, I was gonna say, you better you better get your, your super wealthy patron on the line for that one. That sounds pretty amazing. But, yeah, that's

James Rodebaugh [00:59:48]:
the one for you. About it actually, and I told him, no. You don't have enough money. If I build something like that, it's mine. It's if I croak before you, maybe I'll leave it to you. So Well,

Bob DeMarco [01:00:00]:
James, thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate you coming on, taking the time, and, just talking with you. I Matt has so many great stories to tell about you, and, so we skimmed the surface here, but, yeah, it's been great, and I can't wait to hear about your Alaska place once it's built.

James Rodebaugh [01:00:20]:
Well, you'll have to come up and see it, man.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:22]:
Oh, oh, I'd consider that an invitation.

James Rodebaugh [01:00:25]:
It it is. Actually, Matt, I think is gonna come up next year. And, once I get everything dialed, you you almost have to have a boat. Well, you have to have a boat in southeast Alaska to make to get anywhere, that or a plane. And and without a boat, you're kinda stuck. So once I get the cabin up in the boat, you'll have to have to come up and, it's it's pretty wild country. The people the few people that are there are salt of the earth. I mean, walking into our property, you're walking on a Brown Bear Trail.

James Rodebaugh [01:01:10]:
And the way you tell Brown Bear Trail is there's a a print and a print then a print. They walk in each other's footsteps. Oh, okay. And it sinks into the musk egg and and makes this trail of, you know, I guess they're about let's see if I can get it. They're they're about 12, 13 inches long and, you know, gay wide and, and it's just alternating. And, yeah, when you see a a steaming pile on that trail, the pucker factor goes up.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:45]:
Well, I I think this suburban dad needs that sort of experience just to round out my Awesome. Sounds great, man.

James Rodebaugh [01:01:52]:
It is. It's cool.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:53]:
I need a change of jungle. That's for sure. James, thank you so much, Jim. Thank you for joining me. I really, really appreciate it.

James Rodebaugh [01:02:00]:
Hey. I enjoyed it. Anytime, man. Look forward to seeing you again. Awesome. We'll have to back at you. Yeah. We'll have to have a we'll have to have a beer plate, man.

James Rodebaugh [01:02:10]:
You, me, and Matt will go.

Bob DeMarco [01:02:12]:
That sound

James Rodebaugh [01:02:13]:
Have a beer. That sounds ideal. I'll tell you a bunch of stories I can't tell on. So

Bob DeMarco [01:02:19]:
Oh, yeah. Alright. That sounds good. Alright, my man. Have a good one, sir.

James Rodebaugh [01:02:23]:
Alright, brother. Thank you. Man. Take care of yourself. That's fine.

Announcer [01:02:27]:
The Shockwave tactical torch is your ultimate self defense companion, featuring a powerful LED bulb that lasts 100000 hours, a super sharp crenulated bezel, and a built in stun gun delivering 4,500,000 volts. Don't settle for ordinary. Choose the Shockwave tactical torch, the knife junkie.com/shockwave.

Bob DeMarco [01:02:48]:
There he goes, ladies and gentlemen. Jim Rodobaugh, James Rodobaugh, professionally, forger of some outrageously amazing knives, especially and including that Bowie he showed, that was awarded, given an award by the great and powerful Jim Moran, rest in peace, the last one he gave, as a matter of fact. Very beautiful stuff, but keep your eyes peeled for the Infinity Lock knife as well. Be sure to join us for, Wednesday for the midweek supplemental and Thursday for Thursday Night Knives. For Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DeMarco saying until next time, don't take dull for an answer.

Bob DeMarco [01:03:25]:
Thanks for listening to the Knife Junkie podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate and review at review the podcast.com. For show notes for today's episode, additional resources, and to listen to past episodes, visit our website, the knifejunkie.com. You can also watch our latest videos on YouTube at the knifejunkie.com/youtube. Check out some great knife photos on the knifejunkie.com/instagram, and join our Facebook group at the knifejunkie.com/facebook. And if you have a question or comment, email them to bob@theknifejunkie.com or call our 247 listener line at 724-466-4487. And you may hear your comment or question answered on an upcoming episode of the Knife Junkie podcast.