The Knife Junkie Podcast is the place for knife newbies and knife junkies to learn about knives and knife collecting. Twice per week Bob DeMarco talks knives. Call the Listener Line at 724-466-4487; Visit https://theknifejunkie.com.
©2024, Bob DeMarco
The Knife Junkie Podcast
https://theknifejunkie.com

Transcribe Your Podcasts and Videos: https://theknifejunkie.com/magic (affiliate link)

Announcer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob the knife junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:16]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast. I'm Bob DeMarco. On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with famed knife designer, Liong Mah. Liong started his illustrious career in knives as a full time chef in New York City and is today known as one of the most prolific and sought after knife designers on the market. I first heard the name Liaog Mah when his design for CRKT, the aggressive and gorgeous eraser, dropped 12 or so years ago. Unlike most knives from that brand, the Eraser received a lot of industry buzz as well as glowing accolades from Knife Stop. Years later, Liong has 2 companies bringing his superlative designs to the pockets of knife junkies everywhere. We'll meet him.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:00]:
We'll meet Liong and find out how he got here. But first, be sure to like and comment and subscribe and hit the notification bell and share the show with a friend. That's a great thing to do to help the show. And if you wanna help, support the show financially, you can go to Patreon. Quickest way to do that is to head on over to the knifejunkie.com/patreon. Again, the knifejunkie.com/patreon.

Announcer [00:01:23]:
Knife themed shirts, hoodies, mugs, water bottles, and more. The knifejunkie.com/shop. You know you're a knife junkie if you plan your vacation around Blade Show.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:34]:
Liong, welcome to the show, sir.

Liong Mah [00:01:36]:
Hey. Thank you for having me, Bob.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:38]:
Oh, man. It is a great pleasure and honor to have you. I've been, reaching out to you in vain for a long time. That's that's how it works. People are, hard to get in touch with until you finally do. And, man, I am so glad that we have this opportunity to talk.

Liong Mah [00:01:57]:
You know, it is it's funny they say that because I don't even remember. I don't know how you reached out to me because I don't I don't remember seeing it, but that is my fault. Okay? That's not your fault, at all. And, it was funny because I I do a a similar, conversation with my friend Lee, Love Them Knives, and he brought up your name. And so all of a sudden, so I went Every time we talk, you know, we we I kinda like I'm I'm on the phone. I do a search of like whose name he's dropping. And I was like, holy cow. I think that time you had like a video with, Bob Terzuola.

Liong Mah [00:02:34]:
You know, the godfather of tactical knife. Right? And so I was like, okay, let me see if reaching out to Adam and now stuff see see what he says. And then you you immediately sent me a message back. I was like, oh my god. No way. You want me on this? I will be on this. You tell me your time.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:54]:
Well, you know you know why you didn't know? I was reaching out to you through Instagram DMs, and that's that's kind of an amateur move, but that's, yeah. I was sliding into your DMs. Yeah. I've I've always been a great admirer of your of your work, and and, yeah, it's it, it had to happen.

Liong Mah [00:03:12]:
I tell a lot of people, if you want me to, like, look at your message, just email me. Because the DMs, they keep getting pushed down. So if you don't get to it in this particular time, you never see it. And you can't, like, you don't see the same DM twice sometimes. You know? Yeah. I was like, oh my god. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:29]:
Well, in my intro, something that, fascinates me, and I've kinda known this about you for quite some time is your culinary past and perhaps present. I'm not sure. But I I lived in New York City, for about 12 years, and that's where I met my wife. And and, we loved you know, back in the childless days, we loved going out and spending our money at at nice restaurants and

Liong Mah [00:03:53]:
Oh, yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:54]:
Exploring culinarily. What Where did you work? And tell me what it was like working in the New York City restaurant industry.

Liong Mah [00:04:03]:
I come from, a restaurant background. My family owned a restaurant in Malaysia. And, you know, growing up, I was just running through the kitchens in my grandmother's restaurant that my dad managed. And my mom worked in while she was growing up. So I grew up very comfortably just being in the kitchen, being, you know, around a restaurant setting. And during during growing up in high school I worked at Dunkin Donuts when I was 14 years old and I was baking donuts, I was making the donuts and everything, making the muffins. And so, while I was in high school and back then we had like a guidance counselor and they were like, well, what do you wanna do after you leave high school? I'm like, I don't really know but, I'm very comfortable in the kitchen, and I'm fat in the kitchen. And so, they told me, like, well, have you taken home ec? I'm like, what's home ec? They're like, this way you learn how to cook.

Liong Mah [00:05:01]:
And I'm like, I already know how to cook. Yeah. But I'll take this course, whatever. So they put me in a course, and I went to Franklin Kaling High School in the border of Brooklyn, Queens. And, I had my teacher was Mrs. Gonzales, nicest teacher I've ever met, who, like, she recognized what what I, what I had. And she was like, you You're very fast. Do you wanna go to some, like, after school competition? I was like, okay.

Liong Mah [00:05:31]:
Why not? So I would she would put together like a tote bag of like £30 of kitchen equipment and I'll take this away into Manhattan or other parts of the city and do these small competitions with other high schoolers in New York City. And, then it kinda went all the way up to like where we had a major competition. And, I had like a full scholarship to New York City Technical College in Brooklyn because of it. And so, I never thought I would ever get anything like that, but I was just training and having fun. And, I got like a full scholarship, you know, for that. So and and the school, you know, I I had to learn, like, math and science and all this other stuff. And, you know, went to like wine class and all this. But I I graduated with a 4 year degree.

Liong Mah [00:06:23]:
And then I went to work in like restaurants. I went to work in all kinds of restaurants, like French restaurants. And French food was really the thing that I specialized in. Because I I saw, like, the, like, the time and the love and the really, like, when, when someone actually tries that food, they really they really see the amount of time and expertise that, you know, the the person in the kitchen, you know, you know, put together. And that's that's why, you know, that's the one area that I really wanted to kinda send. And it was like the the love affair was like food being art. And so I worked in all kinds of restaurants. I worked from, like, mostly French restaurants like La Carrelle Belle, Boulay Bakery, Windows on the World, I trained in.

Liong Mah [00:07:19]:
I trained at, my last job was at the Ritz Carlton in Barre Park City. Also, you know, so it's like, Yeah. All these places, and it's just like Yeah. I mean, I spent about 15 years in the kitchen, and I'm like, man, I couldn't go back right now. I've not been in the kitchen for over 10 years since, the last recession around 2007. Yeah. And in a way, if I was to go back now, a day would kick my butt. Right.

Liong Mah [00:07:51]:
Because we, we would run circles for about 20 hours a day. You know? So it's a it's a very high intense job and you have to you have to be able to do it. You know? And so, even though I love it, I I now know that, oh my God, I'd rather spend time drawing, looking at new materials, testing out, edges and all this other stuff that And cook for myself at home and cook for friends and family at home, You know? Yeah. I still do that. And I talk to a lot of friends. Like, I was I had a conversation with, a colleague and and we we we we write up things about what we wanna do and we kinda keep each other accountable. And so she's the opposite of me. She hates going shopping in the supermarket, where I love going to the supermarket.

Liong Mah [00:08:40]:
Yeah. Right? And and she's like, oh, I just do it because I need you. I'm like, oh my god. I look for ingredients that I can't find. And if it saves me time, I got every kind of kitchen gadget that you could imagine. Yeah. You know? And it's like, why? But it's just like, yeah. You know? Because I live in I live in Palm Bay, and you don't have a lot of different culinary type of food here.

Liong Mah [00:09:06]:
Palm Bay, where's that? It's in Florida. I'm sorry. Okay. It's right in the middle of Florida on the East Coast side.

Bob DeMarco [00:09:14]:
Before we move away, from cooking, I have to say, first of all, I had my 27th birthday at Windows on the World. I remember that. I can remember back that far. And, yeah, that was cool. That was amazing. I I wish I still had the photographs from there. If you don't know, that was the restaurant on top of World Trade Center 2, I think, or Yeah. 1.

Bob DeMarco [00:09:34]:
I'm not sure what building it was, but I'm interested in the so you were talking about how French cooking really got you because of the artistry that goes into it and the, slow preparation and, the care. And then when you're tasting that food, you can taste that care and that slow preparation.

Liong Mah [00:09:55]:
How

Bob DeMarco [00:09:56]:
how how does that, how does that now translate into your, let's get into knife design, into, that for you?

Liong Mah [00:10:06]:
Like, I have thousands of designs on my on my hard drives that will probably never see the the light of day. And because I just sit there and refine and refine until I have something that I feel is perfect. And, really, once, you debut a design, you don't want to come up with so many. You kinda you wanna allow, customers and even people who have never heard of you to kinda fall in love with it because they may see a picture of my knife and but never know anything about me or what I did or any of my past work And it's it's something that is like You know, I've heard this from other makers and other dealers They're like allow the customer to fall in love with your design. So don't keep flipping this and doing this because then they don't have the opportunity. And over time, I found that to be true. So, I am known for several designs that are very popular. But, there are so much more that I I wish I could put out.

Liong Mah [00:11:19]:
And, and, you know, that might be a good thing. Because, like, how many, you know, how many pockets are we talking about? Right?

Bob DeMarco [00:11:27]:
Well, not only that, but it shows, that you have a fertile creative mind. And and, you know, there's there aren't enough mills in the world to make all the knives in your head, hopefully.

Liong Mah [00:11:35]:
Oh, man. You know, and and that's the thing. Like, I used to think that it was, like, it was all like about making the best of best. And that's what Leonmar Design represents. It's like, really fine artistry and craftsmanship. And, the knives, they're handmade. They, ground by hand. They do use machinery in terms of cutting up the handles, wire ABM ing the blades.

Liong Mah [00:12:02]:
But, all the blades are hand ground and, you know, satin- hand rubbed satin finish or satin finish. And, even the the milling between the handle material and the and the handles, you don't see any gaps in the, you know? And so that has that is all like the the love of knife designs, you know, so they're online. And the egotectic mind is more like everyday carry. People who can beat on their knives and not worry.

Bob DeMarco [00:12:31]:
Yeah. I wanna talk about eutectic, but but before we get there, since you mentioned, the the, makers, themselves, who who are they?

Liong Mah [00:12:43]:
REACT Aspirant Okay. My only manufacturer since I started this in 2014. Okay. There have been, you know, other other manufacturers have messaged me and contacted me, and we have been talking to shows about doing projects. And sometimes they will tell me things like, you know what? I can give you a better price than we are. But for me, like, I look I I'm not concerned so much about, like, saving a dollar here or saving $2 there. Because I want my customers to know what they're getting is great. It's a great product that they can carry with them if they take care of it for the rest of their life.

Liong Mah [00:13:27]:
And when they when they choose to, they can pass it on to, you know, a relative or their kids or sell it. You know? And the quality will always be there. And, you know, so it's like, it's one of these things that because I I choose that, I'm not very concerned about saving a few bucks here and there. You know, I'm really more concerned about the fit and finish and what I'm able to deliver to my customers.

Bob DeMarco [00:13:53]:
I would imagine that that, people who collect your work are happy with that choice. And, also, I would imagine imagine that as a designer, you have to be happy to find a company like REAT that is so amaze makes such amazing knives. And it's like, you know, it's a collaborative relationship like in a musical band or what anything else where you come to rely on that relationship and they're Probably you have a shorthand at a certain point and they know what you want and you know how they need to operate.

Liong Mah [00:14:24]:
Yeah. And so, like a lot of guys, like when I first started with, and the first products were released in like late 2014 early 2015. I have a lot of lack from people who were like, well, why don't you build this here? And, you know, the thing is we never had a lengthy conversation, but I've tried for about 15 years to have products built in the USA. Yeah. So now you start to see, like, a lot of companies building products in the USA. And I'm working with companies here to build some products in the USA. But 10 years ago, that wasn't the case. You know, it was it was The only way to get this level of quality would be to have one person build it and have that person's name on it.

Liong Mah [00:15:07]:
It'll be a handmade knife. You're right? And it'll be a custom handmade knife. So it's like, it's not that I didn't try, it's that that was not that was not available back then. I wish it would be. You know? And so now, this is because of the the level of precision that you can find in a lot of production knives. You see that here now in a lot of production that's may being made here in the USA. So I I kinda think they both help one another. You know? It's not that, you know, you don't you don't want to have things go here, but it just wasn't available yet.

Liong Mah [00:15:44]:
But now that it is, yeah, we're all gonna go in the USA. We can. And we still wanna have South Bay over there. You know? Yeah. So there's always gonna be different markets for different people.

Bob DeMarco [00:15:56]:
Yeah. I mean, it still hardly is available now. I mean, there are growing opportunities, but, obviously, the costs are are are, more difficult to maintain here. But I know it can be done. We're starting to see it slowly, happen. I I wanna I wanna get to sort of an abstract question before we I wanna talk about the eraser, your your first big mainstream design. But before we get there, you mentioned the term perfect. When you sit down designing, you're talking about all your designs and, you know, obviously, they're not all perfect, but what to you is a perfect knife when you when when do you know you're done designing it?

Liong Mah [00:16:36]:
So perfect, it is a moment in time. And, I have this, like, thing that I say to myself, is that I continuously push forward and evolve. And so, when the eraser from CRKT, was debuted, that was, you know, like you said, like 12 years ago. Right? And so, over time, you know, with different productions, I was like, okay, I would like to add this. I like to add this. And, you know, so it's it's like perfection when I say that is that moment in time. And, as I evolve, there are gonna be evolutions to these designs. And I am getting set to actually release the eraser, like, 2 point o in my production line.

Liong Mah [00:17:30]:
Oh. And Oh, wow. Yeah. These are, like, blind screw titanium bolsters. They're gonna be magnet cut. They're gonna be like nested, tight, carbon fiber, nested line a lot. And there's a opening hole and a flipper. So, you know, over the years, I kinda was like, you know, as people want to to fidget more than eyes, I noticed that, you know, just having a flipper was not enough.

Liong Mah [00:18:00]:
So then there used to be other ways of, being able to deploy the blade. You know? And also, there are a lot of people who like to choke up on the knife when they're using it. You know? And keeping in mind with a lot of things, you know, we try to do the fit and finish where the blade was centered in the handle, and the clip is reversible. You know, so all these things and, you know, the pivot not rotating. All these little things that really become more for as the design evolve.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:33]:
So, that original eraser with CRKT, seemed very, first of all, had a 4 inch blade, beautiful design. It was, I think it was interesting because, I think it was one of the early knives that really brought in sort of the tactical or modern locking, folding, wharncliffe or sheepsfoot style blade. We weren't seeing much of that before then. And, and and I I feel like that was at the very beginning of this, at of this wave that crested. You know, it's still it's still rolling. People still love those blades, but it was one of the early ones. And I think that blade shape really knocked people socks off and that's it made it really popular.

Liong Mah [00:19:17]:
So this knife is like, because of my background, I wanted to create a knife that, you know, someone could feel comfortable using it to slice food. And that's why they have the y, blade that is also dropped below the handle for easier use. And, yeah. The flipper does, you know, may interrupt the cutting edge, but it does, it is usable as a capping tool. You know, and that's one of the reasons why I designed it that way that even though, yes, any knife can be tactical. And I agree I agree totally that point. That they took a chance on this design and, you know, I'm very grateful for, you know, CRKT for taking a chance on me all these years to actually, you know, take a chance on a design that may totally Bob, you know? And and and they they made it, and and it it was great. And, there are pieces made by, custom maker, John w Smith, of that same design.

Liong Mah [00:20:24]:
Because he made that design. And also Strider Knives, made the fixed blade version of that knife. Oh, cool. So I think we've

Bob DeMarco [00:20:33]:
seen that. But, so let me ask you. Has the mission changed between the first eraser, the CRKT, and this current eraser? And I'll tell you why I ask. I'm looking at the blade. The the blade is now full flat ground as opposed to hollow ground, and it's a little less stabby, if you will, a little less pointy.

Liong Mah [00:20:53]:
Right.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:53]:
And and now it looks more, like you said, kitchen utility than maybe, fighting knife, if you will, or self defense knife. Did the mission change?

Liong Mah [00:21:04]:
It did for me. Like, it it it was maybe, you know, prior, I was thinking like, Yeah, this would Because the handle is very comfortable in multiple grips. Right? From this grip, this grip, to even the icepick grip. Right? And, doing that, you, this life can lend itself to a lot of different tasks. But, seeing what people actually use it for, 90% of the time, they're gonna use it to cut their food. Yeah. Right? They're not gonna be Listen, I hope no one ever has to defend themselves with a knife. Alright? Seriously.

Liong Mah [00:21:46]:
But, yeah. So over time, you know, as as as I evolve, I see that most of my knives are being used. If they are being used outdoors, they're gonna be talking to food. You know? And so they're not gonna be, like, you know, hopefully, not self defense type. But if it does need that, then anything can can be self defense tools. Sure. You know? But I just want it to be functional. I want it to be to feel right in your hand, and that's the most important thing.

Liong Mah [00:22:17]:
Anything that doesn't feel right in your hand, you probably would never carry.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:21]:
You mentioned your, Malaysian heritage, very Right. Very rich blade culture. And, just holding up the, eraser again, if you would, the pommel, the tail end reminds me of any number of, hilts or pommels you might see, on the on the handle of a of a Malaysian knife, with that deep scoop and and and the sort of horse hoof shape a little bit.

Liong Mah [00:22:48]:
Yep.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:48]:
Reminds me of that.

Liong Mah [00:22:50]:
Yeah. So early on, I I tried to incorporate a lot of different handles and blades from Southeast Asia. You know? And, the very beginning, I designed, a lot of karambit. And they were all, like, handmade and custom made. But that, you know, I I've kind of went away from that. But, yeah, I I I really focus a lot of leis on from Southeast Asia and the handle and palm oil because, you know, people do use it for camping. People do use a lot of macheteins and and knives outdoors. You know, and so I really tried to see, like, where it would draw in and make a modern version of it with modern materials, that, you know, would be appealing to to people who, instead of just a wooden handle, but a carbon fiber or or titanium that's sculpted.

Liong Mah [00:23:48]:
Yeah. That was really my my, vision, I guess. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:55]:
Well, I I love it because I love, the weapons and knives and swords and such of Southeast Asia. And and, yeah, that the the knife reminds me a little bit of maybe a parang or something. I don't know. It it has that, but but like you say, totally modern, totally stylish. I mean, you could wear that with a tuxedo carry that with a tuxedo, but but but do all your campsite carving and food prep with it. So, right, kind of an all arounder. Let's talk about the birth of Liong Mah Design as a company. And, you know, you you have CRKT, and then, a little while later, I noticed, more of your knives coming out under your own shingle.

Bob DeMarco [00:24:37]:
How did that happen? And what was your first night?

Liong Mah [00:24:40]:
So, you know, there there's I I think Ken Onion is, like, the first guy who really was, like, on the map for doing collaborations with, companies. And he created this the formula. So all of us were trying to emulate what he has really been successful at, which is collaborations with companies. And, you know, I first started with collaborating with custom knifemakers. And, you know, as you know, custom knife makers became rock stars and it's it's harder and harder to get work by them. So eventually, you know, I had to break out my own and even though I'm, you know, circuit team made several of my designs, they could not make all of them. Mhmm. So I brashed out with, you know, in looking for companies here in the US.

Liong Mah [00:25:35]:
And I have boxes of products that, will never see the light of day because they are horrible. Or they they they never fit it. And then, I found I saw a picture of this knife called Horizon by React. Yes. And I think that was, like, one of their first knives. And I bought one. And I think I bought it from Blade HQ. Okay? Somehow or another, the chatter was that this guy named David Dang, you know, had this puppy and making it.

Liong Mah [00:26:08]:
And so, I, I I look on the web everywhere to try to find it and I found their website. I emailed them through their website. No response. And somehow or another, I found him on Facebook. And I messaged him. And I said, are you the David Dang of React Knives? He said, yes, I am. I'm like, Hey, I just got this Horizon A, and it's fantastic. I've never seen a knife constructed like this.

Liong Mah [00:26:38]:
You know, it was M390. Before M390 became popular, it was M390 blade. It was a satin satin finish, a machine satin finish. It was a 2 piece titanium handle with the backspacer incorporated into 2 halves of the titanium. And the fit and finish was like, you know, most custom makers couldn't even touch this.

Bob DeMarco [00:27:00]:
Mhmm. Yeah.

Liong Mah [00:27:01]:
And it was just like, what the hell are you doing with these knives? And it was sold for $400. So, from then on, I I was like, well, my name is Liang Bob, and I'm looking for a manufacturer. And then he responded that, oh, I've heard your name before. I was like, oh, you've heard my name before. Oh, thank you. Okay. So we talked we talked for about 6 months. Yeah.

Liong Mah [00:27:24]:
Right? And everybody warned me. They're like, dude, do not send anything to China. They're gonna steal your design. They're gonna rip off your money. They're gonna take your money and you won't get shit. And I'm like, okay. I get that. And I I take you I thank you for your advice.

Liong Mah [00:27:40]:
And so I'm like, you know, my my my stomach is all like churning. I'm like, okay, do I do I actually do this or not? And for like 6 months, I'm like thinking like, nah, I shouldn't do a recession. And then finally, you know, I sent him the the design, and then I PayPal him money to make the protest. I'm like, oh my god. Now he has my IP man, my money. And then he's like, okay. It's gonna take a month for me to make 2 prototypes for you. I'm like, okay.

Liong Mah [00:28:10]:
So I waited. I forgot about it. I waited and I remembered and and then he the package showed up, the 2 prototypes with my logo and everything. And I was like, holy shit. This is phenomenal. You can make this? He said, yeah. Do you wanna put in a order? So, like, hell, yeah. I wanna put in a order, And, we went on from there.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:39]:
Which knife was that?

Liong Mah [00:28:40]:
That was the Warrior 1.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:42]:
The Warrior 1, that's a tanto.

Liong Mah [00:28:44]:
That is like the upswing tanto. Yes. It's It was a 3 and a half inch blade, and flat flat titanium handles, mill pocket clips, and just, standoffs for back spacer. Okay.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:56]:
Okay. Yeah. That was a beautiful And then you did a Warrior 2 to celebrate your 15 years of designing or something. Is that right?

Liong Mah [00:29:02]:
That was, that was the 15, which was the XB, and I do have a Warrior 2. And maybe by blade show, you'll see the Warrior 3.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:11]:
Oh, cool. Yeah. So so, that that what was it like, how what I'm trying to ask you is what was the public reception of that first Oh. Reactivating life?

Liong Mah [00:29:23]:
It was it was unreal. So so I didn't even know how to go about selling these because I was so new to social media and all this other stuff. And creating a website. So, I had to go from just selling things by email to people, to people who knew me, to creating a website, and then linking my social media to it. Like, which was only Instagram at the time. And, then, like, just showing pictures, it was, like, everybody went guard up for it. It was and, you know, it was like I in 1 week, I sold 300 pieces. Wow.

Liong Mah [00:30:04]:
You know? It was amazing. It was amazing. And, I wish it was still like that. Yeah. You know, it was it was so new because, like, I'm sure there were other people reaching out to Riyadh by that time, but they needed like a proof. So I was like the first proof. You know, I was like the first person Right. To actually had a product made by them.

Liong Mah [00:30:30]:
And, and, it wasn't like, like, oh, yeah, we're gonna Yeah. This person sent their money and didn't get nothing. I actually got the product and I shipped out to, you know, all 300 customers. And a lot of people still have it and carry it. You know? Which is the most amazing thing to me, which is like, it's such a an honor and a privilege to be in this business when you can develop a relationship and it lasts. It lasts and keep and keep going on. And the people who come up to my table and they're like, here, I have this night. And I'm like, oh my God.

Liong Mah [00:31:06]:
That's like 6, 7 years ago. And like, it's my favorite knife. You know? And so, I do my best with, if there's someone messaged me for, like, hardware, I send it to them. If someone needs a clip, I send it to them. But, over the course of the last 10 years, Bob, like, all the nights I've sold, I probably have about 2 dozen emails, maybe a little bit more for people who needed hardware and flips.

Bob DeMarco [00:31:36]:
Yeah. And and that's probably user error, like, you know Yeah. Broken on a car door or something.

Liong Mah [00:31:42]:
Yeah. And and and so it's just like, yeah, of course. Why not? It's a guarantee for life, as long as you don't abuse it. You know, and and that's what I tell people at the show, I'm like, If you don't abuse it, as long as I'm alive and I can get you a part, I'll get it to you. This is, I might have to wait, you know,

Bob DeMarco [00:31:58]:
and that's it. So there's a, you can, you can see from those first early, the earlier knives, like, the Eraser we were talking about, the Warrior, still some of that. They were larger, knives, a little bit more, or I shouldn't say a little bit more, but aggressive looking, tactical looking. Oh, yeah. And then and then you can see an evolution or a a change, in your design. Tell me how your philosophy has evolved and how your design sense has changed.

Liong Mah [00:32:34]:
So, like in my present website, I used to have a gallery in my older website. And it w- it was all the custom collaborations that I've had all the way from 2002. And, you know, you you will see the karambits. You will see, like, the really aggressive blades and, really upswept and really, you know, even hot bills. But along the way, I I noticed that people were not using those blades as much. So, really, I evolved to to really for users to be able be able to use my knives easier. Mhmm. And so, a lot of my favorite blades now, you know, like the the tanto, it's a beautiful grind to to grind a traditional tanto with, like, the the the deep hollow grind and then the convex tip.

Liong Mah [00:33:31]:
Right? But most people don't use them. They they will use, like, a hollow ground, drop point blade or clip point, spear points. You know, that's why I haven't really come up with a a dagger. Because it's like, they aren't really using those type of knives. They use, like, a really flat round dot point blade. And so, noticing that, and and I'm like, okay. Do I want my knives to just be looked at? Or do I want my knives to actually be used? And that's the question that I had to answer. So this is an example of a Tanto grind for my Tanto 1.

Liong Mah [00:34:12]:
Right? So it's a hollow, main grind. And then the the tip is convex as you can see it where by the way, the light out is off the tip. You know, now this is fairly usable to me, but most people would want like my GFB, which is fully flat ground. And, you know, like, just a spear point type of blade. Like, they will use this this one more No, sir. Than the tantrum. So noticing that the top though is like a love affair. Yeah.

Liong Mah [00:34:47]:
It's like a love letter to myself. And the GSD, which stands for get shit done, is the user that everybody always use.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:58]:
That, GSD has gone through a number of, designs, hasn't it?

Liong Mah [00:35:02]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Bong, the first ones were made by a knife maker named David Mosher. Hell, yeah. Super nice guy.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:13]:
Yeah. Great knife man.

Liong Mah [00:35:17]:
This version is more like the version that CRKT built. Oh, that's beautiful. And what we incorporated in something like this that no other production company are doing is we sculpted the backspacer. So, it is 2 halves, 2 titanium halves. I thought that was Yeah. It's 2 titanium halves, so the bat spacer is incorporated into each hat, and then it's sculpted. So it looked like, it looked like an integral, but it's the full integral.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:46]:
You know, I I I just know anecdotally that to, make those kind of smooth radiused surfaces and the mill is very costly and time consuming. It it it almost seems like doing that, making 2 halves, that come together to look integral, might even be more difficult than a full integral, though I know there's a lot of material loss there. What's I know you've designed one of those, and integral is a 1 piece handled knife. What's that like? What's the difference in designing?

Liong Mah [00:36:20]:
Oh, for me, the designing is easy. Right? So the the this is actually harder than the integral because I have to, you know, sculpt the parts, extrusion, and and mill, and and stuff in in SolidWorks. And then I have to bring it all together and put it all together. Right? Whereas an integral handle is just one piece and I can s- cut away the middle. And it's like, Oh, man, this is a lot less time consuming in drawing stage. But for them, they're probably, like, cursing my name every time they have to look at

Bob DeMarco [00:36:58]:
it. Yeah. That's a that's a I mean, imagine that, if you will, like a a, you know, a block of titanium. Remove everything that's not a knife. You know? Oh, wow. That's a lot. That's probably hard to program, takes a long time, Lot of Yeah. Materials.

Liong Mah [00:37:14]:
You know, I'm sure there are boxes of parts that is in the shop that don't make it up. Right? And that's one of the good things about working with, a factory that you that you trust, is that you're not gonna get stuff that, you know, one worked right, one didn't work so well, one was okay. You know? So you don't ever want that. And that's why I I've kept the relationships, with Riaz so well. And so, in going back with the part, I mean, I'm sure to mill out just the center part of all the titanium, that probably took about 20 hours. Yeah. Okay. That that and then if there was any kind of burn or or or something that was not in the in the in the thing.

Liong Mah [00:38:01]:
They have to go in there and clean it out. So it is a very time consuming process. It is a labor of love. And I'm glad they're getting the acknowledgement that they're getting now. You know, because everyone just think, you know, back when I was a collector, you know, this is the ninety's and the two thousand's, right? People would think C&T Machine, Oh, you're throwing a piece of metal and you get a knife? No. That is not how the CNC works.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:33]:
I was gonna say, it's just another tool in the process and it's a very powerful tool, tool. But ultimately, you need people who know how to wield it and then know what to do once the pieces come out of it. Like you said, doesn't spit out a knife, you know? Right. It it it it it gets you started on parts, basically, is is my understanding. So you have a a bunch of knives in your catalog. How many? You know, for I'm a part dude. For Leung Ma design. Okay.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:04]:
So

Liong Mah [00:39:04]:
From now on, I'm fine. That's probably roughly about 30 designs. Okay.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:11]:
And then, Eutectic. How how did that happen and why?

Liong Mah [00:39:16]:
So, Eutectic came about, so we're seeing a lot of, more cost effective brands or or more lower cost brands. Right? Or price conscious brands. And, really, it's like, do you want your do you want your customers to be able to use your knife? That was the question I asked myself. So sometimes I get a knife back for, cleaning, and I'm looking at the knife. I'm like, the only thing that's in here is pocket lead. And that this knife has never been used. Right? It might be used to cut an envelope or something or, you know, maybe maybe a a a piece of salami, but Mhmm. It's not really used used.

Liong Mah [00:40:02]:
So, you know, somebody just wanted me to clean it for them. Oh, okay. I'll do it. No problem. But it's like the you know, I ask myself these questions over time, like, okay. I want my customers to actually be able to use my product, give me feedback, so I can make better products, And give me honest feedback, not be like, oh, this sucks. Well, tell me how it sucked. What happened that made it suck? So I can make a better product for you the next time.

Liong Mah [00:40:33]:
And that for me has always been the driving core of why I'm in this business. You know, it's it's why, you know, like, even in my cooking, I'm like, okay. What could I have done different to make this taste better? Did I brown this enough? Did I let it marinate long enough? Did I, you know, use the right seasoning? Did I put enough salt on this? So these are things I ask myself in the in this business of design. And it is really to be able to give my customers or people who, you know, look at my knife, like, hey, this is a very well thought out design. He put some he put some brain power to this. And that's one of the reasons why, like, when you ask me about designs, I have tons of designs. You know, that really, from the sea, the light of day because, you know, I wanna focus on the existing ones and making them better. And if I get customer feedback, okay, I I look at it, and I'm just like, you know what? This person took the time to write to me a a very well thought out paragraph.

Liong Mah [00:41:47]:
I really look at it. So, like, for example, a few years ago, I came up with my cuff. And the cuff was, in LMAX and this was a monoblock handle. So one side it's like the Strider knives, at the back. And one side was carbon fiber g 10, and their locking side will be titanium. Now, I thought this was fine. This was perfect. This is 3.5 ounces.

Liong Mah [00:42:16]:
Okay? 3.5 inch blade, but the originals was 3 inch and 4 inch blade. Now I had the same guys like, you know, I wish you have both sides titanium or both sides carbon fiber or both sides G10 because I don't like the the polarizing look of one slacking at different material. Right? And so I got enough of that, and I was like, Okay, David, stupid question here, but, how hard is it to make a titanium monoblock? And he's looking at me like, we can do it. So for this next run of cuffs, we're gonna do a 3.5 inch in a titanium monoblock. So, I don't know if you see the line, but you might be able to see the line right there, where it blends really well. It almost looks like an interval. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:09]:
It's like an off off center seam. Right? Yeah. Am I seeing

Liong Mah [00:43:12]:
that correctly? Yeah. Yeah. It's off center. So it's not like the other one where it's half and half. This is the one side is all backspacer on the on the not locking side. And we're gonna be using MagnaCut on these.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:28]:
So cuff, kitchen utility folder. Right. Tell tell me, about the origin of this knife. And then I got we gotta get back to you tactic more. So I wanna find out more about that.

Liong Mah [00:43:38]:
Because of my background, I was like, why don't I make a full wing kitchen knife? Grab it. Okay. I do not expect anybody to actually use this in the kitchen. Okay? First of all, and I've seen videos of people purposely getting, like, tomato seeds in the pivot. And I'm like, Okay, then you're an idiot. If you're purposely getting junk in the pivot. Right? Because of a boulder, and this is just for, like, if you needed a boulder to cut stuff while you're, like, you know, needing to cut stuff with a folder and it happens to be food, then you use this knife. Right? And the other purpose of this knife would be the lower edge to handle ratio will make it easier for you to cut product, to cut things like, you know, meat and and vegetables.

Liong Mah [00:44:26]:
But, you know, purposely get stuff in the pivot, you know? Yeah. So each of you, wipe off the blade and be done with it. So because of my background, I was like, why don't I come off a folding kitchen knife? So the cuff is the first folding kitchen knife on the market. And now there are other versions, there are lower cost versions from other brands, but this is the first iteration of it. And I've evolved the looks of it from the custom guy. So the the first guy to make it was, New Mexico maker named Eddie j Baca. And he's actually the first guy who collaborated with me before he even had kids. And now his kid is out college and working Right.

Liong Mah [00:45:10]:
Working in the industry. You know? So, it's it's like, you know, all these relationships, like I said, you know, like, it's long term. It's not like a, you know, it's a long term relationship. Yeah. I still see him at the shows. So, he was the first one to make this, but this has evolved to where this is now. And I'm very proud of this version, you know, to be able to have a monologue.

Bob DeMarco [00:45:35]:
That is pretty that is pretty cool. I haven't seen that. I wanna go back to Eutectic. I find, especially the clip point blade, so beautiful, so handsome, very clean. Your designs are all very clean. Some of them are embellished with, you know, some of some of your, l LMD designs are embellished with inlays and stuff, but on the whole, your designs are very clean and functional. I'm sorry. Can you hold that back up?

Liong Mah [00:46:02]:
Oh, it's not working.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:03]:
Yeah. This this one really, strikes me that that, blade shape is gorgeous. Tell me a little bit about how you decided, to go ahead with Eutectic, and who's making Lees? Is this also Riat?

Liong Mah [00:46:17]:
It is Riat. But it's not inside the Riat factory. Riat is inspecting the quality and final QC from all the So, I tell this story. It's like because when you go to Yangtze, which is where all the Nas are coming out from, it is factories, like, legitimate factories, like, REACT, WE, you know, all these, Bestech. But a lot of smaller houses, like people who live in these houses, they also have CNC machines. And then, there are ultra shops that, operating out of garages and stuff like we do here, but they are producing tons of knives. So, because of their knives that they cannot they don't have the machine time for in their own factory, They can subcontract with friends of theirs that are literally down the street from where they are. Right? And so the the wire EDM guy is down the street from where they are.

Liong Mah [00:47:15]:
They're heat treaters, maybe half a mile away from where they are. You know? And they have, people who make their hardware with Swiss screw machines. So, that's you know, you can design your own hardware and they will make it for you. So, these are not made in the React shop. But React is overseeing all the production of them. And they oversee all the QC. And every one of them that I have had, they flip amazing. I mean, the detail on these things are so, like, right up.

Liong Mah [00:47:51]:
You know? So and it's hard because the trinity, has three methods of opening from the front flipper to the traditional flipper to the hole. And the detent works with all 3.

Bob DeMarco [00:48:06]:
Wow. Yeah. That's that that can be a real challenge, dialing in a detent, as they say, for those 3 different, methods of opening. That's really fascinating, this that this is, that, you know, it's subcontracted out in a city full of knife people, people who all work in the knife industry in one way or another, or many of them, I should say. Is that a model, that that Riate uses, on the regular, or is this something that No. I mean, I've worked with pioneered with them.

Liong Mah [00:48:38]:
I worked with him on it, and this took this took years to get. And and when I announced this at, like, the 2020 SHOT Show, nobody knew that COVID was gonna happen. Right? And all of a sudden, COVID happened and everything got shut down. And even in China, they had it worse than we did in the with with in terms of shutdown. They went crazy overboard on it. Yeah. Nepal where they shut down and they had to shut down the factory over and over again. So, it took me like 3 years to get these.

Liong Mah [00:49:10]:
Whereas, I was expecting them to to land after the Shaw Show. Right? So with that, that has been the delay. And but they have continuously, you know, been in communication with me. And, you know, so we, we have these now and we're selling them through our site and through a few dealers. And, really, it's the it's the affordable knife from Lehighmark that I want more people to use and, you know, not feel bad if they drop it on the ground or something. Or not feel bad if they got a scratch on it. Or, you know, if, you know, they have to, like, I usually use it in my yard because, living in Florida, everybody has a yard and yard work to do. So, after I bring it in, I washed it in my sink and I leave it to air dry and that's about it.

Liong Mah [00:50:00]:
You know?

Bob DeMarco [00:50:01]:
Yeah. I, that's called the trinity there. And then there's a drop point, which, I I don't it it appears to be a little smaller. Yeah.

Liong Mah [00:50:09]:
So this is a 3.5 inch blade, and the Trinity is 3.75 edge. And the EFD, this is the EFD, it's the Everyday Field Duty.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:20]:
Oh, that's based on your higher end Field Duty model.

Liong Mah [00:50:23]:
Right? Correct. Correct. Oh. So the Trinity is plimmer, but the EFD is slightly wider as, like, the Field Duty is. And there's only 2 mesh of the opening, just the front flipper and the hole.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:35]:
So, yeah, just in general, I mean, I'm looking at those 2 knives, and I think they're both really handsome. I like I like the look of them, and I I've, seen plenty of reviews on them and I handled them at blade show. It's exciting to see that that this line exists, and hopefully, you fill it in, as time goes on. Are are you, in in terms of designing for both Liang Ma design, which is your higher end stuff, and Eutectic, what do you see in the offing? Are you, do you get fascinated by, certain blade shapes and kinda go off on tangents? What do you have coming up?

Liong Mah [00:51:17]:
I look for, like, so, you know, having the Leonhardt line is great because you start to get the feedback from people. And there are people who, like, in my podcast and and, like, and when I post pictures, they're like, Can we get a eutectic version of this? And it's like, okay. If I get enough of these comments or emails and stuff like that, I will explore this because, there are people who want more more cost effective, versions of my Leilman knives. And if that means that it has it is access to people using my knife, I'm more than up for it. You know? Of course, you know, they have to be done right. It's not gonna happen tomorrow. It might happen in 2025 or 2026. Because our production's going into 2025 already.

Bob DeMarco [00:52:09]:
Yeah.

Liong Mah [00:52:09]:
And, so it might probably be 2026 when this release. You know? And really looking at, these things, you kinda start seeing a timeline of these releases and really be able to build the projects up and and gauging the interest and, you know, because we we're not just coming out with knife, we're just coming out with, like, we'd to choose the steel. We gotta choose, what kind of finishes. We gotta choose what kind of handle material. And maybe even the different locks that we might be using. You know? So it's it's all these things that have to go into the thought and and and by finalizing it before we even come out with it. And really, at the end, it's like, how easy is that for a customer to maintain this product?

Bob DeMarco [00:52:54]:
As a designer and a business owner, is Eutectic or could Eutectic, the company, be used as a test bed for, since the whole prospect is, less cost less costly, could the Eutectic line be a place where you test out, I don't wanna say crazy, but designs that you're not sure people are gonna go for?

Liong Mah [00:53:19]:
Oh, yeah. I mean, a lot of companies are doing stuff like this now where they have limited runs. And, you know, so it is it is possible to do limited runs. You know, it is possible to do, like, to test out, you know, different handling materials that we may not be able to get a lot of at first. But just to see, like, let's do this color and let's see what the, what, what people, what people like or not. Because right now, this is the line where you can do the experiment. And not, let's say, like, this Steel of Duty with, like, the Damasteel, Mokun Thai Yeah. And Arctic Storm.

Liong Mah [00:54:00]:
And, you know, it's like, yeah, you're not gonna wanna do a lot of experiments when it comes to stuff like this. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, the other stuff where, you know, where you can play with different materials and that there are all kinds of different g tens that my card has now. I would love to play a role, I thought. You know? And even the the steels, I mean, you know, we have we have access to a lot of different steels and even stuff that at one point, may be limited. But now, you're like, hey, you let's try that let's try that steel. Let's see how well it it cuts. Now, I can make any knife sharp.

Liong Mah [00:54:42]:
Right? And I have no qualms about getting a knife re sharpened. There's nothing wrong with me re sharpening a knife. Right? But there is this theory out there like, oh, can you make it like Rockwell 67? Those little things sharp longer. And I'm like, you know, that'll probably chip your edge a lot faster. Right? You you you know? And Well, it's okay.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:07]:
I don't cut anything anyway.

Liong Mah [00:55:10]:
That's why what I think they would say. But it's like, lately, I've been getting that, like, can you make it Rockwell 64 to 67? I'm like, why do you want that?

Bob DeMarco [00:55:22]:
Sure. I'll get right on it.

Liong Mah [00:55:25]:
But, you know, you you you kinda get, like, people who have, like, these, fantasies of, like, the perfect knife. Right? The perfect knife or, like, the apocalypse or something. Right? You know, and I'm just like, okay, you're supposed to be able to re sharpen a knife. That's it. You know, a knife is made for to be re sharpened. Just just learn how to do it. There's plenty of great systems like Wicked Edge. Wicked Edge is a great system, and you can go and re sharpen your knife easily with them.

Liong Mah [00:55:58]:
You know? And even if you pick it to the show, they'll re sharpen your knife for you.

Bob DeMarco [00:56:03]:
Okay. Leung, as as we close here, I I wanna ask you, what is it about knife designing that keeps you coming back? To me, it seems like it well, like any artistic pursuit, and that's that's that is what this is to some extent, to a large extent, but it's also a business pursuit, like, a 100% of business. Both.

Liong Mah [00:56:25]:
It's a little bit of both.

Bob DeMarco [00:56:27]:
What is it that keeps you in it?

Liong Mah [00:56:30]:
Really, what keeps me in it is really be able to get feedback from my customers over the years of how well my knives feel for them. Okay? How well it feels in their hand, and it's almost as an extension of their hand. And, really, the relationships that I've built over the last 20 plus years in this I mean, you you would all have that in many industries. You know? Like, some of the makers I collaborated with. Now, you know what? They're great people. And they took a chance on me, and I took a chance on them, and we created a great product out of it. And, really, that is you don't see that in a lot of different industries. You know? So, yeah, you're right.

Liong Mah [00:57:25]:
A part of this is business. Because if I wasn't in this business, I would still be in the kitchen. I'll probably be working 80 to 90 hours a week, on my feet, running around. And, I think at this point in time, I'm quite happy where I am. Could it all change? Sure. Sure, it could be. You know? I, you know, I look for for things to see how I can evolve over time. You know, and I, and I look at that in terms of, you know, myself, things I cook, even my, my designs.

Liong Mah [00:58:06]:
I evolve over time. And this business has allowed me to do that. It's actually evolved and it's actually in a stage now that I'm very happy to see, like, a lot of manufacturing has come back, trickled back into the, into America. I'm very happy about that. You know? And I see, like, you know, myself being able to build more products here. And I collaborate with, White River Knife and Tool recently Yeah. With the kitchen knife set. And, you know, it took several years for them to actually because when they when when we when we talked about, they were, like, an immediate yes.

Liong Mah [00:58:46]:
And then they had to go and reverse engineer everything to to build kitchen knives because they never built kitchen knives before. And so, I am so proud that, you know, I have a product that's built by Dan. And from a family that cares so much about what they're putting out there. You know? So it's just like, you know, going back to relationships. Going back to how to keep building and how to keep serving, you know, my customers. And so, it's like, you know, it's it's like there's no greater reward, you know? And to see, like, my customers being my friends, you know, I have 2 friends here locally, their names, Joe and Eric. And, even Alan Fultz lives like 5 minutes from here. And, we all go out for lunch.

Liong Mah [00:59:35]:
We all go, you know, you know, go go do stuff together. And it's like, I wouldn't have that if it wasn't for this business. You know? And they help me. They help me do inventory. They wanna help me go to, be at my booth at shows. You don't really have that, in in a lot of different industries where people, you know, just wanna see you do well. You know? And, yeah. And so, like, I get a lot of questions from people who wanna be in this business.

Liong Mah [01:00:03]:
And I'm like, Yeah, let's set up a call. I'll tell you the facts. And, as long as you're okay with that, go forward. You know? But it's not, it's not a get rich quick. You gonna have to put in some time and some effort. And the first, you know, even now, Friday nights, I'm folding boxes. You know, it's not, like, it's not a glamorous business. Like, you know, what you see at the show is not like real life.

Liong Mah [01:00:32]:
Okay? I'm folding boxes on Friday night. So that's it. That's the truth.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:38]:
You're folding boxes, I'm folding laundry on Friday night, you know? Leung, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been an honor having you here and, talking to you about your your your life in knives. I I can't wait till we talk next time.

Liong Mah [01:00:54]:
Thank you, Bob. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. And, yeah, I mean, I I love this business, so I can't wait to meet you again or see you again at Blaise Show.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:05]:
Yeah. We'll be shaking hands in a month and a half.

Announcer [01:01:08]:
The WORKSHARP professional precision adjust sharpener lets you sharpen your knives with confidence and consistency. Get yours today at the knifejunkie.com slash work sharp.

Announcer [01:01:24]:
If you search Google for the best knife podcast, the answer is the Knife Junkie podcast.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:32]:
There he goes, ladies and gentlemen. Liong Mah of Liong Mah Design. Really great to, catch up with him. Well, meet him, I should say. I haven't wasn't any catching up. It was meeting him, and it was really great. And, yeah, talking to him at blade show pales in comparison to having an hour with him. Be sure to join us next week for another great hour of knife talk, the Knife Junkie podcast, as well as Wednesday for the midweek supplemental and Thursday for Thursday night knives.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:59]:
For Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DeMarco saying until next time. Don't take dull for an answer.

Announcer [01:02:06]:
Thanks for listening to the Knife Junkie podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate and review at review the podcast.com. For show notes for today's episode, additional resources, and to listen to past episodes, visit our website, the knifejunkie.com. You can also watch our latest videos on YouTube at the knifejunkie.com/youtube. Check out some great knife photos on the knifejunkie.com/instagram, and join our Facebook group at the knifejunkie.com/facebook. And if you have a question Facebook group at the knifejunkie.com/facebook. And if you

Announcer [01:02:32]:
have a question or comment, email them to bob at

Announcer [01:02:33]:
the knifejunkie.com, or call our 247 listener line at 724-466-4487. And you may hear your comment or question answered on an upcoming episode of the Knife Junkie podcast.