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Announcer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob the knife

Bob DeMarco [00:00:15]:
junkie DeMarco. Welcome to the knife junkie podcast. I'm your host, Bob DeMarco. On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with master martial artist, knife collector, and Renaissance man, Rolando Garcia the third, also known as Rolando Escotada. Rolando is a lifelong martial artist who began his training at the ripe old age of four. He has mastered numerous fighting arts, achieving full instructor credentials under some of the greats. He studied the fighting arts of The Philippines, Japan, Brazil, France, America, and I'm sure others. But it's this broad and deep perspective that truly gives him a wealth of knowledge and makes his blade centric YouTube channel called Rolando Escotada an amazing and entertaining resource.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:05]:
He also has the ultimate collection of knives and swords. We'll meet Rolando and talk about everything. But first, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, hit the notification bell, and of course, download the show to your favorite podcast app. And if you'd like to help support the show, quickest way to do that is to scan the QR code on your screen, or go to theknifejunkie.com/patreon. Again, that's the knifejunkie.com/patreon.

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Bob DeMarco [00:01:45]:
Rolando, welcome to the show, sir.

Rolanda Estocada [00:01:47]:
Well, thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:49]:
Oh, it's it's a pleasure. So before we we got started, we were talking a little bit. You're living in you live in New York City, have for quite some time, long enough to remember this. And I'm gonna see if you remember this place. It was called Roseland Martial Arts, and it was in Times Square. Yes. Of course. Okay.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:09]:
I mentioned that place all the time because I got some great cold steels there. I don't know if you met Rose. She was the woman who owned the place. It was like a 50 foot cabinet of cold steel

Rolanda Estocada [00:02:19]:
knives there. Yes. And I think that was, not only were there there were so many brands, but, it was my first exposure to the so called, Chinese junk. Right? So you Yeah. You leave the place, like, it would be me and my classmates, and you'd leave with a bunch of videos. And in those days, there was no YouTube. So if you wanted to even learn, like, the most recent, armbar variation coming out of Brazil or, you know, the new James Keating Bowie Night video. You know, she'd always leave it, oh, this is for you.

Rolanda Estocada [00:02:52]:
I like you. And then you're leaving with, like, you know, a knockoff of a Buck $1.10 or a Bali song, and you love it. It falls apart in two weeks. But, yes, those were those were the good old days.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:04]:
We're the good old days. No place like that anymore in New York City. I think Paragon Sports might sell Sebenzas or that kind of thing.

Rolanda Estocada [00:03:11]:
Not anymore. Not anymore. I visited there a year ago, and the pandemic wiped out their collection. They yeah. I know. They might have a couple of Columbia River, but those are the days, and I know what you're talking about. They had Sebenzas. They had all kinds of custom makers there.

Rolanda Estocada [00:03:30]:
They had quite the collection. But even them, no, they moved away from it.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:33]:
Well, before we started here, I was doing a little research on you watching some videos. I mean, I watch your Bowie videos a lot but I was watching some Navaja videos this morning And, I decided I should look up the word escotada because, Garcia is your last name and I wanted to know what escotada means and it's basically the coup de grace that a matador delivers at the end of a bullfight.

Rolanda Estocada [00:03:56]:
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:57]:
Tell me about the origin of that and how you got into martial arts.

Rolanda Estocada [00:04:01]:
So when I I started when my father exposed me to martial arts when I was four years old, he was a martial artist himself. He was an attorney in The Philippines, and, in The Philippines he was an attorney in The Philippines in the nineteen seventies. So for anybody who, knows their Philippine history, understands that in the nineteen seventies, it was martial law. It was a pure dictatorship and just maybe several decades after World War two. So The Philippines was just coming out of their Wild West era because it was a true Wild West era after World War two. A lot of Filipino martial artists had just come back from markings guerrillas, and those were the guerrillas that were fighting side by side with the Americans against the imperial Japanese. But once World War two was over and there was independence, a lot of Filipino martial artists, whether they knew it or not, had some form of PTSD. So there were all types of duels, all types of fights, and that's where my father's instructor, Felicissimo Dizon, he came out of that era, and he was friends with Antonio, Illustrisimo of Calis Illustrisimo, Angel Cabales, who was his, I would I would say his Sanjo Panza, and I say that very respectfully, because he's a master in and of himself.

Rolanda Estocada [00:05:15]:
And then not long after that, there was another generation, of martial arts instructors students, and that was my dad, who learned it from Felicissimo Guizantan. He had to learn it because not only was there martial law, there was, just all types of, fights, whether it was a fight among civilians, but also with law enforcement. And he had to really know what you were doing. So and those were days that he doesn't really like to talk about, but he did learn, a form of kung kung fu called kook soot, which I cannot find anywhere. But, apparently, their hazing, has something to do their hazing initiation has something to do with getting beat up with rubber hoses and yet to survive. Oh, it's something. Yeah. It was it was yeah.

Rolanda Estocada [00:06:02]:
Yeah. He there was, like, all types of horrible experiences, but he he had cooked suit. He was a brown belt under, Sensei Hiroshi, who was the National Bureau of Investigation's, judo instructor. So he was a brown belt there. But he also learned, Filipino martial arts from one of the greats, Filipin Felicissimo Dizon. And, I learned from directly from my dad from the time I was four years old. And, his first way of exposing me to it, especially in the seventies, is all types of black belt theater, Bruce Lee movies. And, but he also made sure to expose me to a lot of books.

Rolanda Estocada [00:06:43]:
So he wanted to be sure that on the one hand, I I knew how to defend myself. You're a kid growing up in the eighties in The Philippines. You're just gonna get into fights. See, it's a very macho culture. So on the one hand, you had to be able to defend yourself, but on the other hand, you had to be able to read your books. So to this day, you know, I still have my library of books as you've seen in my videos. But from there, I went through this is, I think, everybody in the nineteen eighties. You go through Taekwondo.

Rolanda Estocada [00:07:13]:
But when he saw that I was really superstitious with it, he had started to expose me to the the Dizon method, specifically, Dos Apartres. And I studied that from the time I was about 14 till about 20 years old, then I moved to New York. And, after that made you know, I was just I was had my own training group with a bunch of one of them was a Taekwondo Olympian. And those were the days of the the early UFC. And so I kinda had this own early UFC group. Nothing crazy. No nobody got hurt or anything. But it was kind of UFC ish, dog brother ish.

Rolanda Estocada [00:07:47]:
We just rent a space somewhere, and we just went at it. Right? And, you know, there were no rules, so you just went at it. Right? But around around, I would say, not now, I it's I'm about 27 years old at that time, and I had met my, Jeet Kune Do instructor, Armando Basulto. And he was at the time a regional East Coast director and senior instructor under Paul Vunack. And those were in Vunack was Vunack. Yeah. Yeah. Those were hardcore days.

Rolanda Estocada [00:08:16]:
And I had a conversation with my instructor recently, and he said stuff that I taught you guys and the format I taught you guys. And there was, like, a he had maybe old yeah. It was you can't do it now. You you can't teach it that way because it's just it's the old blue map method from 1988 to 1992 where three three on one, four zero one, five on one with weapons, all those things. Doors locked. You can't go outside. You don't sign waivers. You just go in with your honor.

Rolanda Estocada [00:08:47]:
And then the name Estacada came about because my practice was evolving. So I asked both my dad and my instructor and, my instructor, Armando Basulto. I said, is there a way for me to name my own practice because it has evolved so much? And, I was normally, you know, you name your practice after you so that it differentiates. So I landed on the term estacada. And the estacada is the final sword in the bullfight, from what I understand. It's, the word the Spanish word means thrust. Right? And my dad and I had a really good conversation about this as to why estacada itself is important because, from how I understand it, the estacada is used when it's the coup de grace. It's the final sword used to basically put the animal out of its misery.

Rolanda Estocada [00:09:38]:
But there is a way that the bullfighter has to do it so that it's viewed as in a way honorable and if, also merciful. So there's honor and then there's mercy. One, you have to face the bull. Number two, you have to do it in such a way so that when you do thrust the sword, it has to be right through the, like, in the fleshy portion of, of the shoulder of the bull so that when it charges you, you have one shot at it and it goes straight into the heart, which ultimately ends, the bull. So the philosophical underpinnings of, the estacada term, interwoven estacada, is that, you gotta face your problems, whatever it happens to be. And there is a higher call towards elegance and cultivation in that you have one shot at this. And for those who look at bullfighting, once that thing goes after you and if you even flinch for a moment, that bull has no respect for you. It's just gonna glance off the sword is gonna glance off of it.

Rolanda Estocada [00:10:39]:
It's gonna end up goring you. And in a way, it's become my metaphor for my own personal life and my own personal practice. Makes your problem head on and just to add a little bit more of challenge, try to finish it elegantly and in one shot.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:54]:
I gotta say, I really love and respect the, the concept of elegance. I mean, I I I think you seem to be someone who I saw on your bookshelf you have something about, modern style.

Rolanda Estocada [00:11:06]:
Mhmm.

Bob DeMarco [00:11:07]:
You know, gentleman you know, how gentlemen dress. It's not just about, the brutality of being able to use a knife to win a fight, but there's also, you know, self respect and presenting yourself to the world in such a way that is, maybe people won't even wanna fight you. I I respect that that sort of idea of elegance. But in in terms of the Estocada method as it is, seen in combat or in self defense, what what kind of defines that style?

Rolanda Estocada [00:11:39]:
I would say it's, weapons based. You know, on the simplest level is on the simplest level is weapons based. Because if we were to take it's in many ways, it it's founded on the JKD, philosophy. Right? Which is, you know, absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own. So when Bruce Lee started to study all of these other systems, he was really trying to come up with his his own, it's it's very similar to Einstein where he was trying to come up with his own grand unified theory of martial art. No belt, no labels, just one really elegant way of expressing combat, which is ultimately personalized. I built on that, and I thought, well, his focus was primarily empty hands. Because, by the time he was in The United States in nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties, there were a lot of rules when it came to weapons.

Rolanda Estocada [00:12:34]:
But it was during a time where self defense was something that was important because there were a lot of things happening in The United States at the time in the sixties with a lot of the radical changes. But also the idea of urban crime was coming. Right? But because of the way the laws were set up and the way, urban crime was starting to rise, there was an emphasis on self defense as something that was practical. I took a look at this and I thought, well, I think that's good for what it was for its time. But as Gurudev Inosanto evolved it, he started to add the weapons based aspect. And it's not because of any sort of oversight on Bruce's part. He just didn't live long enough to see it all the way through. But the weapons part of it, I think, is ultimately important because to me, weapons taps into the secret app of arthrokinetics and biomechanics that is just native to who we are as human beings.

Rolanda Estocada [00:13:33]:
You necessarily won't understand your true martial capabilities, both from a physical standpoint, but also from a spiritual standpoint, until you've actually held a true weapon in your hand. You won't understand what you're capable of until you know how to brandish something like a custom bag well. This is a a the Raidi custom bag well that I have here. Once you start to explore martial art from the perspective of being able to take life. I believe the Japanese term for that is, setsun I think it's setsuninto, which is to be able to take life. But then to give life, katsuninto, to be able to spare life. Those are things that you don't necessarily consider when you're doing Brazilian jiu jitsu or boxing or doing Muay Thai class. Right? So when you're so my estokata is ultimately this this philosophy of the study of giving life, but ultimately the responsibility of possibly taking a life if need be.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:41]:
That is something that doesn't get, mentioned much. I mean, you could accidentally take a life just from cold cocking someone or giving someone a decent punch, they fall, hit their head, that kind of thing. I talk about this a lot. I I mentioned this to my daughters a lot too who who I'm kinda showing some of this stuff to is that, you really could, trip someone up. I love sweeps and and and the kind of thing that if you're being careful, you could actually be very gentle with, but if you're not careful, they could fall and hit their head. And then that's it. And you have to be prepared for all of those kind of eventualities. That's interesting.

Bob DeMarco [00:15:20]:
Take a life or save a life, take a life if absolutely necessary.

Rolanda Estocada [00:15:25]:
Yeah. Yeah. And my my father was talking to me, son, there are only two mistakes in martial art. What are those, dad? Well, the first one is to kill a man you did not intend to kill. I said, okay. That makes sense. What's the other mistake? Well, to not kill a man that you intended to kill. I I I'll I'll keep those in mind, dad.

Rolanda Estocada [00:15:48]:
Thank you.

Bob DeMarco [00:15:50]:
Okay. So we we've mentioned a bit of your, training, your, by the way, I mean, we're we're talking savate, we're talking Brazilian jujitsu, some sort of Japanese martial art. I don't even know. I I'm assuming it might be a sword based art.

Rolanda Estocada [00:16:03]:
It is.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:05]:
You're a kettlebell coach under the great Pavel Tasulini, which is amazing. But something that I'm really, really, intrigued by, because I'm born and bred American, is the Bowie fighting. And you just pulled out that beautiful Bill Bagwell theme, custom made Bowie. Tell me about your investigation into Bowie fighting, where it started, and how you got to know Bill Bagwell and get into that.

Rolanda Estocada [00:16:33]:
And again, you know, my great martial arts instructor, Jeet Kune Do instructor, Armando Basulto, he introduced me to it. And me being Filipino and being raised in the Filicier Simon Dizon, fashion, Dizon was actually not a knife guy. He did not promote it because he was coming up during a time where Bali songs were so prevalent. Because after World War two, there was so much, junk, just laying around, scrap metal, that there was this boom in the nineteen fifties and sixties of just this amazing production of great quality Bali song. But because of that, they were just being used for all types of nefarious reasons. So when by the time he got to my dad, he emphasized to my dad, do not emphasize, knife training in your with your future students or even your sons. Right? So by the time I got to my instructor, I was not a knife guy. You know, believe it or not, you know, I was I was trained in Filipino, but I was not a knife guy.

Rolanda Estocada [00:17:31]:
But, you know, we did some drills when I was there, but I was never really attracted to it. And he said, hey. So, you know what? You should take a look at the buoy knife because that might be something, you might be interested. No. No. I'm not a knife guy. Sifu, I am not a knife guy. And then one day, my first introduction to a buoy night was, of all things, a Pakistani buoy.

Rolanda Estocada [00:17:51]:
So it's, you know, made in Pakistan. And he was like, hey. Check it out. He he just he just has this weird just, hey. Check it out. This is a buoy night. And I said, I said, Sifu, I told you I'm not into that. And then I I put it in my he put it in my hand, and something just, you know, every ancestor in my genes just said, oh.

Rolanda Estocada [00:18:11]:
Is it just in one of those? I thought what I I I was speechless. Right? Because it felt it felt like it could move like a stick. It had is it somehow awakened something in me from a movement standpoint. And, of course, I study it. I had to read everything about it. In fact, I during those days when Paladin Press was still a thing, I read this book like it was my bible. This is Bill Bagwell's now out of print, Bowie's, night and, book, which is just completely amazing. I mean, even just the photos, if you can see that, of his own knives.

Rolanda Estocada [00:18:51]:
And if you can take a look at the cover, I was enthralled by it. But what really caught my eye about it was when he talked about how you could end an altercation within seconds, which, to me, when you think of knife fighting, it's a relatively long drawn out thing. And, again, I grew up in The Philippines. So this is like when a fight is a fight, it's it goes on for a while, right, even when a knife is involved. But he had this idea that it could end certain things. And, he talks about the back cut. What the fuck is a back cut? Is that well, you know, the sharpened false edge and back, flip it down like this.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:33]:
Show us what you're talking about, Winston.

Rolanda Estocada [00:19:34]:
So if we're take if this is the Bobby Raines Rainmaker Damascus buoy in brass, and this is the escars. So when we think of knife, this is what we think of. Right? You know, the the Norman Bates. Right? This is what we're thinking of with the background music. But what he was talking about was a back cut where instead of just slashing or thrusting or even snap cutting, his idea was and this is again from, James Keating and Bill Bagwell. The idea that this sharp and false edge, if I just turn my thumb down, not only is that steel leading flesh, so it's hard to get my hand as a target, but the fact that the entire mass of the blade, now that it's developed this momentum, all of that mass is going to concentrate into this needle point tip. This is the part that's the actual killer. According to James Keating, the target is the left part of the forehead because, in fact, you can do it right now.

Rolanda Estocada [00:20:33]:
He said that there's a natural blind spot right here. So if I take my hand right here, I can see it. I can see it. I can see it. And right about here, I cannot actually see it. The natural blind spot. So that's the right there. Right? You can't see it.

Rolanda Estocada [00:20:47]:
Yeah. So when you do that back cut with this knife and you go pop right about here, When I ate it in sparring, it was the worst feeling in the world because it feels like a piano just got dropped on your head. It that's it you're you're moving you're moving and it feels like a piano got dropped on your head. And that's a plastic sparring knife. So the thought of this wonderfully engineered Bowie knife, was something that had been created. I thought that was majestic. I purchased the Ontario Bagwell version, and those were the days when it was relatively secretive what the what the steel composition was. Someone thought it was four forty c.

Rolanda Estocada [00:21:30]:
Someone said four forty a. But then I had to go through Blade forms, and I had somebody, said, well, Mastersmith Bill Bagwell does not do email, does not do anything on the Internet. So you're gonna have to call him. And I got in touch with Mike the late Mike Sastry gave me his phone number, and I called Bill. And I and it his wife, Sidra, answered, and Sidra's Filipina. So she and I got to talking, then she put me on the phone with Bill. And then Bill, this he he took this kind of mentoring kind of interest in me. I don't know why, but he just took this interest in me.

Rolanda Estocada [00:22:09]:
And he always had this, you know, kinda high pitch, you know, this, you know, beautiful, you know, Texas voice. Now now Rolando. Like, when he he would always say, now Rolando, you ought to. It was it's always like, you ought to. Right? And he would kind of talk me through it on the phone where this is how you do a back cut. This is how you do a snap cut. This is how your shoulder turns. And so to have him on the one side of my education in terms of just the mentoring and coaching, And then the reviewing of videos with Bill Bagwell, and then my instructor, Armando, who put us in these sparring scenarios with those three pillars in place, and I'm very grateful to all three gentlemen, for, that type of education, which I don't think you can get anymore.

Rolanda Estocada [00:22:52]:
I ended up ordering three, directly from him. A righty lefty custom bag well and then a Damascus bag well. And, that's that's my, that's an overview of my history.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:05]:
Well, let's let's see those knives.

Rolanda Estocada [00:23:07]:
Oh, yeah. So this is the first one. This one is the this one is the righty because I asked him for a righty lefty version because I wanted to explore a double buoy fighting, which isn't a thing because carrying two buoys wasn't a thing. But this is the oh, god. I know. Dog bone style, but this is the real detail. And I still remember being on the phone with him. I said, Bill, did you do this? And then he was like, I know that that's gonna be a that's gonna be a beep.

Rolanda Estocada [00:23:39]:
You know, it's like really some something that's gonna be hard to do. But you see these? These little pins that he threw in there?

Bob DeMarco [00:23:46]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That Looks like knurling, but those are actual pins.

Rolanda Estocada [00:23:50]:
Right? Those are pins he threw in. And what he did, and it's very hard to tell, but if you look at the cross section of it, you see how the handle and then the guard don't the the handle is slightly angled? That's Yes. Because he engineered it so that it matched up with how my shoulder is ever so slightly raised so that when I think I'm lined up, it the edge lines up slightly to the right. So this is the difference between a custom knife maker who understands the anatomy, but also understands, knife combat, moving knife combat. And this goes out to knife makers all over. Study your customer from a biomechanical and anatomical perspective to really customize it for them because now this is the left handed version. And the left handed one is very interesting because the angle is you see how it's a it's slightly that you see how that's it's very different.

Bob DeMarco [00:24:54]:
Yeah.

Rolanda Estocada [00:24:55]:
Because he said everybody has some degree of shoulder, depression and shoulder protraction. He said if you ever get a custom suit, which I ended up getting at some point, he said even your tailor will tell you that's there is such a thing. Right? So you can't make a right Bowie knife. You can't make a right buoy knife to the exact same spec as a left buoy knife. Because just when you think you're gonna end up cutting, you know, a portion of his anatomy, you might be cutting his shirt because the angle is completely off. So this is that righty lefty.

Bob DeMarco [00:25:32]:
The the I'm noticing looking at these, the quillons are different. I I love the, the Bagwell style up upward facing quillons with the Spanish notch. Tell us a little bit about that.

Rolanda Estocada [00:25:45]:
Yeah. So this one, notice that it's just a little taller, and it just it kind of bisects this portion here, the Spanish notch. Whereas this one is actually if you can see it, it's lower. Yeah. Alright. It's lower than the Spanish notch. Whereas here, it all it comes all the way through. This was his idea, not my idea.

Rolanda Estocada [00:26:09]:
I just call him and, hey. You're the master. You tell me what I need to do right now. What are you gonna make? Right? So he had this here. He said just on the chance, right, that somehow the blade can catch. And he said, and I can talk you through that. And he kinda did, and I love the things he said. But I thought I'm I'm never gonna pull that off.

Rolanda Estocada [00:26:29]:
I'm just never gonna pull that off. But his idea was that at some point, edges are just gonna catch. And this the blade ends up patching kind of this way. You see how that kind of catches right there? Yeah. And the idea was that you can leverage it. And just me doing this a little bit, you can feel it. Oh my god. What leveraging there? But he did not think that this was the function of this particular, devil's horn guard.

Rolanda Estocada [00:26:59]:
He made this slightly shorter because he viewed this as the sniper that comes from the outside. So this comes forward. Right? This is the heavy shock troops. And if you end up having to catch, you can leverage. But this is the one that comes from, as I angle off, this is the one that comes from nowhere. This is the one that comes in and just he doesn't see it. That's the idea that he had.

Bob DeMarco [00:27:23]:
So if you're just listening, we're talking about two Bagwell Bowies, one made for the right hand that has an extended quillion that goes slightly above the Spanish notch, there to to catch a blade and kinda leverage it out of your opponent. But the right, the left handed version of this is a different has a different quillion and a different Spanish notch because it's not doing the same job. It's kind of coming in in clutch as the sniper and and, doing some sort of a strike when the other knife is bound up with the right. This is this is brilliant. I didn't I didn't actually realize that looking at the pictures of your of these two, well, until you mentioned it here. I'm interested also in, there there, there's, you know, how I've read about it, there's some Bowie knife fighting that is kinda based I have a Laredo Trainer. Laredo, I love their

Rolanda Estocada [00:28:15]:
I have that one. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:16]:
There's a lot of Bowie knife fighting that kind of came out of saber fighting. So maybe the more educated, more cultivated individual who knew how to saber fight in a traditional European sense using a Bowie, but then there's the mountain man style with the swedge forward or the false edge forward. Tell us a little bit about that. I know you've trained a lot of that.

Rolanda Estocada [00:28:38]:
So it's here's and and I'll mention this also because there's a third system, and, actually, it was, Grudenius Inosanto who kinda brought this to my attention. So you have the saber fighting one. And, with, Jim Bowie and his brother, Reason Bowie, he had, they were of Scottish descent. So it they're gonna come from a Scottish blade standpoint. Right? So you have one, two, and then you have the backup coming in this way because you're gonna have shock and fall section. So you have this kind of business that's happening. However, you do have this other business where it's edge up. And this is, again, this is the Rainmaker buoy here, and he designed it so that because not all buoys can accommodate the right wrist alignment, both the edge down orientation versus the edge up orientation.

Rolanda Estocada [00:29:28]:
Now from all the buoy aficionados that I've dealt with, this is this one is not the favored one for a very simple reason. You lose the back cut. The back cut is that it moves so fast that it doesn't register to the human eye. And the way Bill mentions it in his own book and the way he demonstrated it to me is that the way the aperture of the eye is set up, the way it registers images, I forget the rate of it, but the movement of the thumb from this position to this position, it doesn't register to the human eye, which means that the buoy knife, when it does this, that back cut doesn't register. So the main takeaway of this edge up orientation is that you lose the back cut. You don't have the back cut capability. Right? But why do I like this particular one? I mean, I think it completes, your training is because when you are in a defensive position I don't think this is an offensive position. I think this is deep this is offensive.

Rolanda Estocada [00:30:32]:
Right? Edge down so you can back cut. But as you are having to kind of give way, you got you have to give some sort of ground, and they don't see it. And you turn your shoulder, and then all of a sudden, it's edge up. You can slice up, angle off, and then now you have this. Now you can hit vagus nerve, trachea, brachial artery, that entire line. And that's what I really like about this one because the ability to go from back up fluid flow, give ground, turn shoulder, come up, and then go all the way down those arteries that I just mentioned, that's really quick. But I see I in my opinion, from, sparring experience, that works best when you have somebody who wants to cover ground and wants to advance. That's that's the one that, I think that's where it works best from a sparring standpoint.

Rolanda Estocada [00:31:26]:
There is a third one, and Gurudek was the one who he mentioned it in one of the workshop that I attended. I've been trying to look this up, but, this is what he claimed. He's there are two reasons why he thinks that there is some Filipino influence wife, from what I understand, was part Filipina. Like, his like, she has some relatives in The Philippines. Right? So is it possible that she could have taught him? Maybe that's possible, but I think the more likely scenario is what happened with Bill Bagwell himself. His wife is Filipino. So when I would be on the phone with him, he said, oh, yeah. When we would visit The Philippines, she would spar with her uncles who were Filipino martial artists.

Rolanda Estocada [00:32:18]:
Wow. He would spar with them. Right? And, but I'll tell you this story. He said they got so frustrated with the back cut. At one point, one of the uncles, like, faked an angle number one and did it like a stepping sidekick to him. Yeah. But he I'm sure I'm sure that, there was some crossover if anything, if the relatives came over. Right? So that's that's one.

Rolanda Estocada [00:32:42]:
The other one is the fact that, Jean Lafitte, who was a famous, pirate in Louisiana, from what I understand, he got all kinds of pirates from all over the world. And one of the famous, pirate groups happens to be in The Philippines, and they were of Chinese descent. They were called the Limahong. And I would not be surprised if some Limahong pirates came over from The Philippines, joined up with Jean Lafitte, and Jean Lafitte is a famous, buoy knife practitioner as well who used it. So I can see how some of that made its way into it because the back cut is, is very similar to, not exact, very similar to the Cebuano Dosipara's technique of a lock tick.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:29]:
I was gonna say, like, the the the, the back cut to me is always kinda like a wittick.

Rolanda Estocada [00:33:34]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:35]:
Kinda horizontal.

Rolanda Estocada [00:33:36]:
Yeah. It's the the Loptic, it was I was told so the Wittek is like to the front. Right? So you're doing this business with it. So the idea is that you if this is a stick, it's to the front. So it's it's coming in this way or it's to the top of the head. I was told that one of the grand masters of Sibuana De Sipares back in the days when he would spar, Janisio Canete, his lock tick was the idea that instead of this, it would kinda back cut. But since this is a stick, it would be to the back of the head.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:10]:
Oh, yeah.

Rolanda Estocada [00:34:11]:
Yeah. It would be to the back. That was his favorite technique. It would be angle one, bring it around, and to the back of the head. Just crack your butt. So you'd, boom, you'd get hit here. Then from there, he would would take. I was like, wow.

Rolanda Estocada [00:34:25]:
That that is a crazy technique. But clearly, it's different because the back cut is not to the back of the head. It's either here and all the way across all those arteries. But I think I can see some of the crossover, one from a historical standpoint, but also from my own personal practice. But I would not go so far as to say that it's Filipino influence. I don't think so. I think there are just way too many other things that makes it its own thing.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:52]:
So, let me ask you this. The Randall knives, the especially the number one which was used a lot in world war world war one. I've heard of something called the Randall fighting method where it is, false edge forward. And I think that that's why there's that, choil kind of on the back of a Randall there, so that you can use it like this. Do you have any idea how people were taught to use those?

Rolanda Estocada [00:35:20]:
Here's how I understand it. Right? So this is a Randall Nordic, Nordic special. Right? Awesome. That's beautiful. Yes. The and this is just for Dave Harvey Nordic knives, and it's supposedly, after like, this is the late development gentleman's buoy. So if you happen to be on one of those, boats in Louisiana and you're playing poker there, you know, one of the more well heeled would have, like, a really super fancy, like, airy buoy knife, which I think is it's a gents knife. Right? Yeah.

Rolanda Estocada [00:35:51]:
But the idea behind yes. To your point, the idea of holding it this way. Right? But from what I understand, this wasn't on a one on one situation. It wasn't necessarily this. From what I understand, it was held this way or the edge coming towards for century removal.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:11]:
Oh.

Rolanda Estocada [00:36:12]:
That's that's how I understand it. They designed it this way so that if they were and those were the days it was World War II, Battle of the Bulge, you know, going across Europeans. Nazis were everywhere. You know, our American GIs would be in the bushes just like in the John Wayne movies, sneak up on one of the Nazi bad guys, grab them, and just go, fuck. Right? Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:34]:
Right. I get you. For cutting cutting the throat.

Rolanda Estocada [00:36:37]:
Yes. But from what I understand, the current American Bowie knife, evolution, which was built off of the Randall one, one seven one eight, really came to the fore, when we were in Vietnam. And we were looking at special observatory observations group. And it became a the weapon of choice in tunnel clearing, and some of that technology, made its way when we went to Afghanistan for cave clear. So that's so there was there was a choice in terms of special forces, in terms of what you were gonna use for cave clearing. Are you looking at SCIOC tactical group with the emphasis on this, the tomahawk that, guru Rafael Khayana had created? Or are you looking at the American Bowie knife? I've heard several stories on the American Bowie knife version that makes me believe that that was an excellent choice as far as cave clearing was concerned because it was it was very direct. Like, once they encountered enemy combatant and you're in a cave and you do one of these from you do a backup from nowhere, that guy's going down. He's neutralized.

Rolanda Estocada [00:37:57]:
Yikes. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:58]:
So we're we're talking about kinda that MACV SOG shape, that double peak Bowie that opens up a giant channel Yeah.

Rolanda Estocada [00:38:06]:
If you will.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh.

Rolanda Estocada [00:38:09]:
Yeah. It's, and when I the stories I was told, and this is where Bill himself, he did not like the idea of teaching the whole system. And I said, well, why is that? He said, well, he because at the time he was teaching, in Fort Bragg. He was teaching there. And he said the whole thing can be taught in thirty minutes. And if you take somebody who is, fit and he's well trained, but then he has a superior, Bagwell combat knife, yeah, you're looking at somebody who who's going to be really deadly in under 30. Yeah. In under in under 30.

Rolanda Estocada [00:38:50]:
When he put it that way, I thought, yeah. I'm I'm gonna be really careful in how I disseminate this also. Yeah. Wow.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:57]:
Well, let me ask you this. Just, moving along from the Bowie a little bit, what do you think of some of the more I think they're modern. They're they're more modern, styles of fighting like, like, South African gang, Piper, you know, Piper one thing or Medusa which comes out of the prison system or Libra and I fighting with the Pical style. Mhmm. Tell me, from because you have a a deep, background in some of these more traditional knife fighting techniques. Some of these others like Piper, Medusa, Libre, they're a little more modern or what do you think of those kind of styles?

Rolanda Estocada [00:39:36]:
I think they're worth studying and definitely worth exploration. And there's a lot they're they do have a lot to offer. It's part of the way I've set up my own Estacada philosophy of teaching is that it's dictated by the length of the blade. Right? So if you take a look at the t cal double o seven, you have this one. Right? This is a good appropriate length for those systems. But that said, Bill himself would say, these were his words to me. He'd say, now, son, why would you take this little itty bitty to a knife knife? That that's what he would call these knives. Right? Right.

Rolanda Estocada [00:40:13]:
Right. But in his world and in his mindset, carrying a Bowie knife, he lived in Texas, was just what he did. Yeah. Right? So it really depends on, first of all, are you first responder? Are you environmental health specialist? Are you law enforcement? Do your regulations do your laws, allow you to carry those types of things. Right? Because it really does depend on what you can carry legally, what you can get away with. New York, it has to be under four inches and has to be completely concealed. So as much as I'd love to carry a Bagwell with me, right, or a rainmaker with me, you know, of a particular size, you know, of course, I feel really safe walking around with something like this on me. Right? Yeah.

Rolanda Estocada [00:41:03]:
It the lack of practicality is just not there. Right? Now is it legal to carry something like, let's say, your standard classic Buck one ten? Absolutely. Can you use it for self defense? You could. Is it optimal? Well, the fact that there's no ergonomic gripping on it, maybe not. The fact that you now have a fixed blade with good ergos on it with designed as a tactical scalpel, then yes. Now those systems come in because those systems also have a lot of emphasis on, concealability, right, and rapid striking. So that's where something like those, especially born out of the environments that where they were born out of, there's a reason why they were born out of of that. I like that they're open with it.

Rolanda Estocada [00:41:57]:
I like that they are considering the kind of small knife aspect of things. But I think, ultimately, if you're going to decide to study that, you gotta take a look at the environment where those come from. Right? You're looking at South Africa, you know, the incarceration prison systems, and I you're gonna have to study that mindset as well. And I I don't know how if everybody has the the appetite for that kind of mindset.

Bob DeMarco [00:42:25]:
Yeah, yeah it's not dueling, it's a little different. It's, you know, this is a Mamushi from Gross Motor Gear, I just got this but it's a Yeah. This guy does amazing work. Sean Old is his name. But, it it it comes from a hidden spot. It's a surprise technique and then it's kind of gross motor Well, this is called the gross motor gear but you're using gross motor motions. It's it's less, nuanced. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:42:57]:
It more relies on your caveman, reactions. Yeah.

Rolanda Estocada [00:43:01]:
I mean, here's, I love that. That's beautiful. And I have here the, the Peregrine, right, from, RMJ. Right? Yeah. But then take a look at that. Right? Take a look at how the finger can go in here. Right? So then if you're looking at from a tactical standpoint, from a hidden blade standpoint, You know, maybe I'm at a bar and I'm getting in I'm training in this method, but and I'm I'm like this and I have my arms crossed like this. Okay.

Rolanda Estocada [00:43:27]:
Sure. Sure. And I decide to do something like this that goes across the you gotta be able to justify. Right? So you have a paraquat, and then all of a sudden I pull this out. Right? And this comes across. You gotta be able Wait. What is that? Show us that. What is that? This is a paracord.

Rolanda Estocada [00:43:43]:
So you have a paracord over here, but then it has a blade. I love that. Right? So you're here. You have a cross, you're talking, and all of a sudden the guy starts wailing on you and just, oh, no. Wait. Please stop. No. Don't please hit hit it.

Rolanda Estocada [00:44:00]:
And you do one of these, it comes or it it unsnaps, and it comes right across this way and it indexes to your thumb. Now just think about how many times in a boxing match somebody gets accidentally thumbed in the eye. Yeah. So the thumb is natural indexing. So there's a lot of intelligent design when it came to the paraquat, which is now if you have, like, a peregrine where it's along the index finger and I'm just pointing at something. Right? But then you have to be able to explain it in the court of law. Yeah. So wait.

Rolanda Estocada [00:44:33]:
So this was a hidden tool. Right? Yes. What caused it? Well so you have to have that narrative and be ready for it. I think it's really good to study. The only thing I am not crazy about, and this is where my Estacada philosophy differs, is that just like Bill Bagwell said, alright. You learn it in thirty minutes. Now you're a really good buoy knife fighting machine. Now what? What did you learn about your own biomechanics? What did you learn about how, and this is where the Shinkaku youth, the Japanese horsemanship that I study, setsun into and katsun into, the ability to take life versus to give life.

Rolanda Estocada [00:45:23]:
Once I draw this, this isn't about giving life. Right? So it's a martial system that is when push comes to shove, you're at the eleventh hour. The the the Nazi zombies are coming for you. Alright. And this is all you got? Yeah. Sure. Let's go ahead and do that. Right? But does it leave you an option to even think or consider possibly giving life? Not necessarily.

Rolanda Estocada [00:45:48]:
So, my Estacada philosophy is has always been, if you're training with the bullionite, how much of life is that giving you as well? How much is it improving your own self awareness? So if you have something as narrow as the systems that you mentioned, okay, that's great. But just know that on the other side of that, you have to explore different paradigms so that it's not just about, oh, well, when they come in, I can do my thing, versus the rest of your life, you get to talk about and enjoy other things as well.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:23]:
Do you think that, especially given what you were saying Bill Bagwell was talking about, you can be a deadly guy in a half hour. Do you think that the lifelong study of martial arts and these fighting arts also instills a morality along the way that allows you to be more judicious with it?

Rolanda Estocada [00:46:42]:
I'd like to think so. Yes. I'd like to think so. And this is where I the ones that I I actually ended up studying, the two figures, right, Kamiizumi no Kami no Buttsuna, the founder of Shinkager Yu. Shinkageryu, it was the official swordsmanship system that was taught to the shogun during the Edo period. Right? That was the one he decided on. It was between that, Katorishitori, and Ito ryu. But he was, the shogun at the time was so impressed, by Yagyu.

Rolanda Estocada [00:47:16]:
I think he was his father. But he ultimately studied from Yagyu Munenori. And Yagyu Munenori was greatly inspired Takuan Soho. You know, when you order sushi and you have that little yellow pickle, that's named after him. That's Takuan. Right? Yep. And he was a a lot of Buddhist, monks in Japan at the time were actually from samurai stock. So in his collected letters to Yagyu Nenori, and the name of the book is The Unfettered Mind, he talks about how swordsmanship, the study of swordsmanship, actually leads to an awareness of yourself.

Rolanda Estocada [00:47:53]:
Right? So that's one. But then ultimately, the other source of study that, in terms of the search of morality, led me to, Yamaoka Teshu, the famous samurai who was not only known for his calligraphy and being a kendo champion, he was the guy who helped end the Boshin War, the civil war in Japan. So it was the restoration of the Meiji line of emperors in a bloodless way. But what it what it ultimately leads to, the study of martial art ultimately begins with a search for certainty and certitude, just like all those old martial arts that we see. You ever you ever notice that? It's like, well, in this figure, if he does this, then you do this. And if he does this, then you do that. You're looking at strict causality. Yeah.

Rolanda Estocada [00:48:43]:
When you look at it from that perspective, every student who studies any martial art is looking for strict causality and certainty. What the blade does, whether it's a buoy knife or a samurai sword or a Piper system knife, it introduces uncertainty, not only from your own sense of your own existence and your own self preservation, but even an uncertainty of your own morality. Because if you have this capability to take a life of somebody who may have insulted you or may have even threatened your life, a questioning of your own morality at its highest cert certitude, Only the blade can provide that in my experience. And that's why the study of it is so broad, not just from a skill standpoint, but from the constant refinement and cultivation of one's character, not only as a human being, but ultimately as a warrior.

Bob DeMarco [00:49:35]:
And it requires a tremendous amount of skill to be to become good at and and like you said dedication and time. So how do you feel about the relevance of all of that training and all of that those years of, blood, sweat, and tears in the age of the gun, where someone could have a gun in their waistband and change things very quickly? How do you feel about guns?

Rolanda Estocada [00:50:03]:
There's a great, I I love guns, but and I'd and I'll tell you this. There's a great line in Enter the Dragon where Bruce Lee says, why doesn't somebody just go and take a 45 and bang, settle it? Right? And then their excuse in Enter the Dragon was, well, the bad guy, in order to be on his island, you can't have guns. And Bruce goes, oh. Right? I mean, that's nice and convenient. The the the one problem with the gun that I have is that it's not an educated tool. The gun is a marvel of engineering, meaning it makes my life so easy that if I want to make any significant impact on this reality to end and take another person's life, it's a pull of a trigger. Right? If I'm going to move with the buoy knife or a samurai sword, there's an there are two there are several main considerations. One of them is biomechanical.

Rolanda Estocada [00:50:59]:
Meaning, am I moving in my position correctly? Am I firing the right neural sequence, the right activation of muscles? Am I breathing correctly? But most of all, is my mindset correct? Is my mind clear? Akawan Soho was writing to Yagyu Minori, and he said that if your mind stops at anything, anything at all, if you fixate on the guard, his stance, his style, his uniform, you will get cut down. That's that was his deal. So if your your mind is the enemy. So what the blade does ultimately is not only does it take you down this path of self awareness, but really to the very nature of this reality that we all live in. Meaning, you are experiencing it directly in a way so that you have something where if you hold it, if you hold it judiciously, even if you don't have an opponent in front of you, you're perfecting yourself in a way that you can as you're moving, you are also reflecting on your capability to give life and ultimately take life. And in the words of, I think it was Katsumoto in the last of in the last samurai, he said, in the end, it's all perfect. And that's the path for me. That's my estokata, the path towards, self perfection through the warrior path.

Rolanda Estocada [00:52:28]:
The gun is a strict causality through the mechanism of engineering. At point, at point, very functional, very practical, and I learned nothing from it other than the skill.

Bob DeMarco [00:52:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, so is this why, I always see you training with a live blade and and, is this is this part of it?

Rolanda Estocada [00:52:52]:
Yeah. It's a very big part because one, you have a lot of self awareness because there's a very slim margin for error. I make one mistake or I'm too busy trying to get, you know, a million views, you know, on a on a short. And then maybe that I didn't quite get my left hand out of the ways I do that back, but, well, you know, there I go talking to my insurance policy and said, guys, I I I don't know what to tell you. I was trying to go for a million followers and I lost my hand. Could do you cover that? Right? So there's that PC. Is it is that in my policy? Maybe. So so there's it raises one sense of self awareness.

Rolanda Estocada [00:53:34]:
Am I paying attention? Am I focused here right am I here right now? Am I doing what I'm supposed to do? Mooshing, which is no mind. Right? If and, again, this is a t k l double o seven. Training knife comes with that package. If I have if I'm training with just a trainer, you know, I could do something as stupid as this. Right? Or as silly as this. Right? As I hand it off, I think I'm being and all of a sudden I just sliced open my hand, it will keep me from going too fast, right, because I might do something silly. So if I have something as razor sharp as this, yeah, I better know exactly the placement of it, not up here, because I could do this. Right? And then, all of a sudden, this is how I'm gripping it.

Rolanda Estocada [00:54:21]:
Now I'm in a very silly position. I have to make sure that I hit just that portion of my left hand along the mechanoreceptors. This is where you bench. Right? This is where your barbell lands so that when you have maximal control and force generation, it's right at the spot. Once I touch here, now I'm good to go. Now I can cut across. And then when I'm at this point, now I can hang off. But I can only have that level of awareness in my own self my own safety, but also of those around me.

Rolanda Estocada [00:54:51]:
I mean, I have a girlfriend who lives with me, and I have a pack who lives with me. So I have two lives that I have to be protecting as I train, but that's not very far from what a real life scenario would expect. So always live training to maintain the highest level of awareness and precision. That's my philosophy.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:14]:
That is actually my philosophy too. I have, I'm far less accomplished than you but I feel the same way. I got this recently to see what it was like. I have some nerve damage in my thumb and I thought, Oh, maybe I'll see what it's like to work with a lighter blade. And I immediately began to realize that this is just for playing with my daughters. Because with the it it it's totally different from the actual Laredo Bowie.

Rolanda Estocada [00:55:44]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:45]:
And it's not really teaching me anything especially that. And by the way, I feel you on the cats thing. I I have a cat, my beloved little hunter killer, and I always make sure she's not in the room when I'm doing this stuff because that would just be the one shit. That'd be the worst. Okay. So you, we're about to wrap here, but you mentioned something I really wanna get to, when you were talking about, barbells and and this portion of the hand and Mhmm. I know that a lot of our viewers here, not all of them, but a lot of them are like you and myself, men of a certain age.

Rolanda Estocada [00:56:19]:
Yeah. And,

Bob DeMarco [00:56:20]:
it was never a problem for me staying in good shape. Even if I fell off the wagon for a while, I could but now that I'm 53, it happens far less quickly. Do you have any sort of advice, general advice? You know, maybe our viewers are not knife fighters or martial artists and not interested in that aspect of knives, but they're still interested in remaining in shape or getting in shape. I know that you're, certified under, Pavel. Like Yep. What do you recommend? How do how do guys our age stay in shape, get in shape, stay healthy?

Rolanda Estocada [00:56:54]:
Two pieces of advice, for our specific audience. Number one, only purchase a knife that you intend to train with. Not the one that you're gonna work with, the one that you're gonna train with. The one that, you know, sometime in the morning, your eyes aren't quite open yet. You know, you take this out. This is how I learned SIOP three of nine. First thing, wake up, I go, I do wanna and it's a live play. Right? So you wanna make sure that anytime you purchase an eye and it's live, it's something you intend to train.

Rolanda Estocada [00:57:23]:
Right? That's it. But also number two, train with a eye, at least with thirty minutes straight with your base heart rate somewhere zone one, zone two. So, for practitioners our age, you're looking at somewhere between a 10, maybe on the high end, a 30 beats per minute. Because that ensures that you are in that zone that keeps you, one, parasympathetic. So you still have access to fine motor skills. And when you move in this manner that's multiplanar and, it it activates all of your myofascial lines because it's mostly circular, That creates a lot of synovial fluid flow so that your joints, you know, they it gets all of that synovial fluid. It gets a lot of the aches and pains out of there. It gets your footwork going so that the majority of your nerve endings are gonna be along your hands and your feet.

Rolanda Estocada [00:58:17]:
So when you're working barefoot in this manner, you know, your foot ankle complex actually starts to come alive. This is what's kept me going. And my own powerlifting totals aren't necessarily anything to brag about, but it is over 1,000 for a guy my age to be able to do. And yeah. It is. It's it's, it's over one k, powerlifting totals of four thirty five deadlift, three d 35 squat, two seventy five bench, but no major injuries. Right? No major injuries. And I give credit to the Bali song, to the buoy knife, to the katana to keep me injury free because I'm not just moving in a single plane.

Rolanda Estocada [00:58:57]:
So I would say those would be the two things. But also, last but not least, from a self defense standpoint, you you you start to consider the life and death, kind of things involved, in these types of matters. I would say those would be the two things. Train pick a knife that you're going to train with. Then number two, train every day, you know, zone one, zone two, heart rate, and, have fun with it. At least thirty minutes a day.

Bob DeMarco [00:59:22]:
Rolando, thank you so much for coming on. It's been a real pleasure talking to you. We're gonna continue this conversation a little bit for the patrons. But, man, I feel, I cannot wait to meet you at Blade Show. I assume you're gonna be there this year.

Rolanda Estocada [00:59:34]:
I will be. I will. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:59:36]:
And I know we've met in person, but I'm always a scatterbrain there, so I didn't have a chance to really dig in with you. But this time, for sure, it's been a real pleasure. Rolando Garcia of Rolando Estocada the third. Sorry. Yeah. It it's great having you, man.

Rolanda Estocada [00:59:52]:
Same here. Thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here.

Bob DeMarco [00:59:55]:
Absolutely. Take care, sir.

Rolanda Estocada [00:59:57]:
Thank you.

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Bob DeMarco [01:00:32]:
There he goes, ladies and gentlemen. Rolando Garcia the third of Rolando Estocada. We talked about so much stuff, and we didn't even get to the Nevada, which we're gonna do that in our, patron interview. Be sure to check him out both on Instagram, but but mostly on YouTube. I mean, he's got a great channel on YouTube. If you're interested in this kind of stuff, you will cherish it. Alright. For Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DeMarco saying until next time, don't take dull for an answer.

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