The Knife Junkie Podcast is the place for knife newbies and knife junkies to learn about knives and knife collecting. Twice per week Bob DeMarco talks knives. Email Bob at theknifejunkie@gmail.com; visit https://theknifejunkie.com.
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Announcer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob the knife junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the knife junkie podcast. I'm your host, Bob DeMarco. On this edition of the show, I'm welcoming back Jack Billings of Shed Knives. Jack started his outdoor knife company with two school friends in 2018, starting with a coffee can forge and whatever they could trade, scrimp, and save for. They sold their wares at scouting events and to family and friends. But with time and tide, Jack became the sole proprietor of the company. With his nose to the grindstone, he began growing the company's catalog and profile. Six years and three blade shows later, Shed Knives is coming into its own, constantly updating its knife designs and improving its production process.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:59]:
We'll talk with Jack and find out what's new in the world of Shed Knives. But first, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, and hit the notification bell. Also, you can download the show to your favorite podcast app. If you'd like to help support the show, you can do so by heading on over to, Patreon. Quickest way to do that is the knifejunkie.com/patreon. Again, that's the knifejunkie.com/patreon.

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Bob DeMarco [00:01:46]:
Jack, it's a pleasure to have you back, man. Welcome to the show.

Jack Billings [00:01:49]:
Thank you. Great to be back as well. Great to be here.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:53]:
Well, the first time we spoke, you were in your kitchen, and now I see you're in this big beautiful space. Congratulations on your new shop.

Jack Billings [00:02:01]:
Thank you very much. Yes. This is pretty new as of February 1, so moved to a much larger facility. And the camera can't show it all, but it's pretty huge and moving in, so there's a lot of space here, a lot behind me as well. So just a lot more room to make knives, make better knives, and get them out to all the awesome knife enthusiasts. So twenty six days in the new shop, what have you found? How did you move into it? Not how did

Bob DeMarco [00:02:32]:
you move into it, but how have you found it, working in that space?

Jack Billings [00:02:37]:
Well, for comparison, I'll bring you through my three shops. I started in a shed. Now I could fit probably six of those sheds in here. And then the shop I just moved from, that shop had ceilings probably like, I don't know, a third of the size. And, they were very slanted as well. So I didn't even have a full ceiling. So anyways, just with that said, to have bigger ceilings and more square footage, I mean, it may sound pretty simple, but it's a pleasure to have.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:13]:
Oh no, no, I believe it. It's kinda like when you move into a new house or a new apartment or something and you have more space, suddenly you're like, what am I gonna do with all this space? And then you very quickly realize you can you can fill it in. You've been in there twenty five days now,

Jack Billings [00:03:28]:
That's right. Yes. And at times I'm like, man, if I had three feet over here, I could be just a little bit more. So but that's why I continue to work hard and make great knives because seriously, the the growth over the past few years since when I started in 2018 has been insane. And I'm so appreciative of it because I get to do I get to do cool things like this.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:51]:
Okay. So for people who may have missed the first interview that we did or, you know, haven't listened to it in a while, give us a brief history of Shed Knives.

Jack Billings [00:04:01]:
Sure. So Shed Knives started in a shed, in my shed, in 2018 when I was about 13 years old. And I started with two other friends, two childhood friends, and we all just started really making knives out of my shed as a hobby. And we got it from both Forged in Fire, the show we all love, and just scrolling on YouTube, looking for cool things to do. So fast forward few years later, start selling, selling, selling, picking up our first dealers, and, here we are today. So just really improving and making better knives as time goes on and really just diving into it. So super cool.

Bob DeMarco [00:04:47]:
Well, let me ask you this, most 13 year olds are are, you know, trying desperately to get more Xbox time or what have you. What what what do you think it was about knives besides Forged in Fire, but what what was it about knives that got you guys really going?

Jack Billings [00:05:04]:
Yes. So as 13 and 14 year olds, we were think now maybe not all of them, but at least for us three, we were thinking about when we will get our first car. And personally, I'm a big car guy, and I was like, well, I need to start saving some cash. What's the best way to do that? Well, go get a job. Well, guess what? No one's really hiring 13 year olds, so, the second best thing was start selling stuff. Yes. The the second best thing was start selling stuff. So I, I thought, you know what? Let's sell deadly weapons like knives.

Jack Billings [00:05:42]:
So so that's that's what I got into. And to be completely honest, it's what I knew as a boy scout at the time and doing years and years of camping and outdoor skills. I just knew knives. I knew about them. I knew what people wanted. And for making things, I thought, you know what? It's fairly simple, which I was completely wrong about, by the way. However, at the time, I thought, you know what? This this is gonna be pretty simple. And, yeah.

Jack Billings [00:06:12]:
So that's that's basically how it started was we wanted to save money to buy a car.

Bob DeMarco [00:06:18]:
Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Yep. Man, there's there's nothing like the, there's nothing like the influence of being able to drive to really get you to, you know, that's a real carrot in in front. My my daughter, one of my daughters is 14, she's almost 15 and she's looking forward to that driving experience. I am not, but she she's just like, this is gonna be my car someday, right dad? And yeah, there's nothing like that to get you motivated. So, with the buddies that you started your friends that you started with, you know, I know 13 is an early time to kinda make up your mind about what you're gonna do, but how was it that that, they kinda peeled off and did their own thing and you kept with it?

Jack Billings [00:07:04]:
Sure. So the two other guys, Sam and Ben. So Ben, he wanted to dedicate basically all of his energy as much as possible plus some to lacrosse. And he's currently in college playing lacrosse, so that worked out for him. And then the other guy, Sam, Sam was running a landscaping company at the time and wanted to spend more time into that because he was getting more customers. So now he runs a fantastic landscaping company as well, and I'm still friends with these guys. I was actually the best man for Sam at his wedding. So, yeah.

Jack Billings [00:07:41]:
So guys are still my really good friends, and I'm proud of what they're doing. And I think it worked out for all of us. So I I couldn't be happier.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:49]:
That's so cool. You can never tell what what you're gonna do in life or where life will take you is what I should say. That is very true. I I really like where it's taken you. It's it's really cool to see you in this new space as I mentioned. You are in Southern Delaware, and That's right. We just were emailing, last week, and I found out that, you worked for the Willys at the Willy knife shop, and they were on episode five thirty, five hundred 30 of the knife junkie podcast because we happened upon them, on a family trip. And, it was so cool to to see their shop, to meet them, to have them on the show, and, what a special place that is.

Bob DeMarco [00:08:31]:
What so when did you work there? What was that like?

Jack Billings [00:08:34]:
Yeah. So I started working for them literally one week into being out of high school. So I had one week to myself and then I went straight to work. So, however, that journey started quite a few years beforehand. It started really when I wasn't even as tall as the counter in their in their store. And we just went in looking at a cool knife store and, met mister Willie and the Willie family and just went from there and became really good friends with them. And to be completely honest, I don't even know how the job presented. However, I know somehow it did because I ended up working with them for about seven months or so.

Jack Billings [00:09:16]:
And then I went full time with my knife business and have been full time with it ever since.

Bob DeMarco [00:09:23]:
Wow. That's that's impressive. You mentioned, that you went there presumably with your dad, and I've met your dad a couple of times at blade show, and he's a really cool guy. Before we get on to what's new with, with shed knives, tell me a little bit about your dad in terms of his interest in knives. Was that an influence on you when you were

Jack Billings [00:09:43]:
a kid? Totally. Oh my goodness. Yes. So he was actually the driving factor in getting me my first knife because if it was up to my mom, she would have said, oh, he's too young for a knife. So and, maybe she was right. I don't know. So however, it was a team effort. And yeah.

Jack Billings [00:10:02]:
So he he's always loved knives. And, his first knife he got from his dad. So I got my first knife from my dad, so just kind of a a generational thing, to be completely honest. And yeah. So he's had a passion for knives and kinda passed that along to me. And then like I said earlier, doing all the camping and bushcraft and scouting, all that stuff combined, you're gonna need a knife eventually. And that's how I really got into it. It was a mix of all those factors.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:33]:
Alright. So let's talk about your process now. I have two of your knives in front of me, these are from 2023. They're so you talk a little bit about your your, dating convention. Each each, year you come out with kind of a refreshed version of each model, isn't that right?

Jack Billings [00:10:53]:
That is spot on, yes. Like I said at the beginning of the podcast, I love cars so I thought, you know what? Since I know about vehicles as well, I'm gonna bring a little bit of that knowledge into my knife collections. And just like you can go out and buy a Chevy Silverado or a Ford F-one 50 and they do it by the year, each year there's little adjustments. Same thing with my knives. You'll look at the year, in this case, 2025, and make some knives based on that year's collection. And then 2026 comes around, knives for that collection, and so on. Cool. So, what what have you done in terms of process updating recently? Yes.

Jack Billings [00:11:35]:
So really making a lot of my processes super, super efficient, And that saves time on my end, which saves the customer money in the long run, which win win for both of us. And then also adding in a few new different colors and materials as well. And also new for 2025 are flat grinds. So this knife here, this is the 2025 Secure Shed Knives Secure. This is the number one best seller for shed knives. This knife has a G10 liner as well. You can kind of see that there. It's a ivory G10 liner where your conquest you have from 2023, that's gonna be a solid color where this has two colors, blue and black, nice burl, along with the ivory g 10, the flat grinds.

Jack Billings [00:12:25]:
So little things like that, but over time, they add up and the knives start to look very different as we go on. So that that skewer was kinda your first, your first knife, right, your big hit? Yes. The first big hit to SCM. That's right. So and that thing oh my goodness. It was actually a complete accident. It was, when I was making knives still in the shed, I ground a little too much off of The US tanto. There it is on the screen.

Jack Billings [00:12:52]:
So, yeah, I ground a little too much off The US tanto and which there it is. And I thought, you know what? This blade profile looks pretty cool, so I'm gonna run with it. And over the years, it's just gotten better and better and better, and this is by far the best version yet. And I still think like, man, how how can I get this better? So so it's it's just a great knife. Well, what what do you

Bob DeMarco [00:13:18]:
think it is about this model in particular that is so compelling,

Jack Billings [00:13:23]:
to knife collectors and users? It's the versatility of the knife and it's how it sits in your hand. So it's like it becomes a part of you, where a lot of times our equipment is just, like, associated with us, where this is like, wow. It's an extension of my hand. It's an extension of me, my personality, whatever. It's like just how so many people, including myself, really connect with it. And I'll show you the thickness of it as well. This is like quarter inch thick one fifty four centimeters steel Wow. Which is insane for most, number one, one hundred and fifty four centimeters blades.

Jack Billings [00:14:01]:
Number two, just knives in general. So super thick, she gives you a really nice just secure feel.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:08]:
So tell me about your decision to go, with a flat grind.

Jack Billings [00:14:13]:
Yes. So I make knives meant to be used and you need a blade that's gonna be able to to withstand any use that is really above normal, so above average. And flat grinds tend to be tougher compared to hollow grinds. If I was making smaller knives like the 2025 Secure Lite, this knife here does have a hollow grind on it because it is super, super slicey, and it's meant to be slicey where you break out a knife like the tuatara. That's a pretty chunky blade. It's huge. It's meant for hard work. And having a hollow grind, yes, it's slicey, but when you're chopping down a tree, you don't really care about that.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:58]:
Well, I I mean, because I'm looking at the hollow grinds on both these, the Conquest and the American Tanto, both both '23 models. Yeah. And it's they're hollow ground and they're nice, but they're not super thin hollow ground and they're and they're somewhat, what's the term, I guess short. They don't come up super high on the blade. So I've I have banged these things around a lot, and I have not gotten the impression that they were anywhere near close to, you know,

Jack Billings [00:15:28]:
bending right to whatever. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:15:30]:
Anything like that. They're they're quite stout, for hollow grinds. I I I, I like them a lot. And then when I look at the skewer with the flat grind, you bring it up much higher on the blade.

Jack Billings [00:15:42]:
That's right. Yes. And I do that for a few reasons. It's so you still have a really sharp edge, which is it's a knife. It needs to be able to cut. But then also the style of it, having a higher grind is just a little bit more appealing, and I just think it looks better. So and like I said, it helps make the the edge part a little bit thinner so that way you can get a little sharper edge. However, I still have that flat grind which makes up for the higher grind because it's just super strong.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:13]:
Yeah I see it's kind of in cross section it's wedge ish, but it's nice and thin because it comes up higher so you got a thin behind the edge sort of sliciness, but you also have the stoutness of the of the flat grind. I I like that a lot. What about the SKURE lite? That looks, like a like a different breed.

Jack Billings [00:16:34]:
Yeah. So the Skewer lite was was really a a number one customer voted knife. They said, we love the Skewer. Make a mini version of it. So I did just that. This knife here, skeleton knife, still a quarter inch thick. So same same blade stock, really. But it's a mini version of the skewer.

Jack Billings [00:16:55]:
I just took the design, scaled it down, and it's 1.6 ounces, which is super, super light and heat treated, 58 to 60 Rockwell, and still one fifty four centimeters steel. Just a fantastic blade. And the sheath is really cool on this as well because most of my sheaths just have the grommets on the side and the bottom. However, with this, you may wanna carry it a variety of different ways. So I put grommets on pretty much all sides except where you put the knife in on top.

Bob DeMarco [00:17:26]:
Yeah. That that will definitely make I mean this one is crying out to be worn around the neck if you ask me, I love neck knives. That looks like a great neck knife and and I agree that, the the pancake style sheath as a as opposed to the taco is better for hanging. Not only do you have the grommets evenly on the on the bottom part, but also it's kind of symmetrical when it lays on your chest. So because it's smaller but it's still that quarter inch thick 154 centimeters stock, you kinda felt that you needed to go hollow ground just to make up for the fact that you don't have as much realistic Yeah.

Jack Billings [00:18:03]:
Yes. I mean this knife is super, super small. The blade on it, I mean check that out. So just compared to my watch, like it's super small. So a hollow grind, that's where you get the sharpness from, especially when you're working with super thick steels, like this quarter inch thick blade. And so so the flat grind, I did try the flat grind at first, but it just wasn't slicey enough, where with the hollow grind that's where you get that that really sharp edge.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:32]:
That's a that's a sweet little I I like that little knife. You know, I I think it's also begging for people to do their own kind of treatment to it. You know, I love to put, jute cord on my little on my little knives. I know some people like to make their own scales. Some people just like the skeleton. Some people like, paracord or whatever. But I'm looking at that, and I love it's like a little scalpel.

Jack Billings [00:19:01]:
That's right. Yes. It's super customizable. I posted a video on how to do two different five fifty cord wraps, And I also have gotten some photos in from people customizing their secure lights. And somebody actually put on some ESEE Azula scales

Bob DeMarco [00:19:17]:
Oh, no kidding.

Jack Billings [00:19:18]:
Knife, which was completely on accident. I didn't even mean to, like, make it like that. However, somebody figured out they fit fairly well and yeah. So they make it their own. And I gotta say, that's one thing I really enjoy about knife enthusiasts, specifically the shed knives enthusiasts because they take a knife, which I think is just like high end. It's the best. It's the best of the best. And then they add their personality to it.

Jack Billings [00:19:45]:
And like I said before, it becomes an extension of themselves and and their personality. And then when I get the photos of that, it's like, wow, man, that's great. And then some of them give me ideas to come up with, like, cool knives like this, and it just goes on and on and on. And as a community, we help better the knives themselves, but then we also help better each other through skills, resources, and all sorts of stuff like that.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:11]:
Yeah, and making you think in different ways and taking you down to well not everyone is handy and and I totally get that. So so not everyone is gonna customize a knife that they love dearly. I don't on most most of the knives I have, I don't. But it's a real sign that someone really loves a knife. They're like, I love this thing so much. I want it to be exactly how I want it and I'm willing to make changes and stuff. I usually am not, but, but I think that that's a real, you know, tip of the hat to you that they're gonna take that and and make it their own even more than, how you make it. So now you mentioned something, that is, maybe listeners to the last, interview that we did will take note of.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:57]:
You said that you are heat treating your one fifty four centimeters, to fifty eight sixty Rockwell, which is awesome. Super, that that's like that's the perfect range for one fifty four centimeters, which is one of my favorite steels, if not my favorite overall steel. But last time we spoke, you weren't heat treated. You didn't heat treat, some of your blades. And, so how did this come about? What was your, thinking? And and how did you how did you, how did you adapt and change your, end process to making these knives?

Jack Billings [00:21:33]:
Yes. So great question. I did a batch of, I think it was like 40 to 60 knives in 2023. It was literally my first batch of one fifty four centimeters knives, and they're quarter inch thick, folks. It's kinda hard to mess up a quarter inch thick knife, a piece of steel, one fifty four centimeters steel, whether it's heat treated or not. So through all my testing, I was like, you know what? This is still pretty good for the testing I was doing. However, by popular demand, a lot of people said, hey. We want heat treated knives.

Jack Billings [00:22:11]:
Like, yes. We know they're great. Yes. We know they work well, but we want them better. And that's exactly what I brought to the table. So same year, 2023, I started heat treating knives. I had other companies doing that. And as of this Friday, I am bringing in heat treat to my own shop.

Jack Billings [00:22:30]:
So right over there by that shelf, that's where all the heat treat stuff will be in. And what I'll be able to do with that is make more knobs and make them faster because there have been a lot of people asking for certain colors or certain models, and they're out of stock. And the reason for that, quite frankly, is because so many people get them that it's kinda hard to keep 49 variants in stock all the time, ready to ship same day. So anyways, with the heat treat, I'll touch on one more point. I add a heat treat certificate in all of the knives for 2025. And I started this in 2023 adding a heat treat certificate because even though it was like 40 knives, there were still enough questions on the heat treat and whatever that I was like, you know what? This is literally the first thing you see when you open the box. You don't even see the knife. It's on top of the knife.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:25]:
Would people give you a lot of guff for that?

Jack Billings [00:23:28]:
Yes. They did. And it was all at Blade Show, which I love Blade Show. But it brings out the handmade knife community, which they are a wealth of knowledge, a wealth of information. And the thing is, at the time, I was transitioning from handmade knife maker to more production knife company. And I gotta say, the handmade crowd isn't really a big fan of that. And so I was starting to get a lot of their opinions and procedures and stuff, which they know what they're doing. So I took some of their suggestions along with the production side of things, like, talking to CJ Buck, talking about heat treat and that stuff.

Jack Billings [00:24:10]:
So they all said heat treat your knives. So I was like, you know what? If that's what people want, I'm gonna do it for them.

Bob DeMarco [00:24:17]:
Well, that's smart. I mean, you gotta you gotta give the people what they want. As they say, you have to remain nimble and, you have to be able to adopt, you know, new new ways. But I gotta say, I think I think, one of these two, I think it's this one, was one of the un unheat treated ones, and I've, in all fairness, bashed the the hell out of this knife, excuse the French, and except for where I dropped it on concrete accidentally at the tip, it showed no I mean, it showed real no real wear. It dulled a little bit, but that's gonna happen with any

Jack Billings [00:24:53]:
do that. Yes. So

Bob DeMarco [00:24:54]:
well, I gotta say, though you weren't though this wasn't from a heat treated batch, it still, man, it still kicks butt and, did very well. And I was surprised later on to find out because I believe you told me that this one wasn't heat treated. And at first, I was like, who? What do you mean? And then I was like, well, it it was awesome. You know?

Jack Billings [00:25:17]:
I suppressed. It worked. So and and the thing is now they're even better. So I need to get you some of the heat treated knives, which just to clarify for anyone wondering, the knives have been heat treated since that second batch of 2023, which was, like, July. Literally, when I got back from blade show, I found a heat actually, I at Blade Show, I found a heat treat company, and then when I got back home, I sent them knives. So literally from, like, I don't know, the June 2023 until today, I've still been heat treating and they keep getting better and better. That's why I'm bringing it in house.

Bob DeMarco [00:25:55]:
Jack, you're forgiven, Jack. Don't worry about it.

Jack Billings [00:25:58]:
These things are awesome.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:00]:
And, you know, you this is a heat treated one, I believe, because this is a later 2023, Conquest. Between the two, by the way, I gotta say I mean, they're both beautiful. I love them both. Actually, I like the svelte ness of this one, but this one to me is just a dominator. I think it's totally awesome. But, yeah, that's that's the whole point of of Blade Show or that's the whole point of meeting your peers at Blade Show is that everyone makes everyone else better. And I have to say with everyone I've spoken to, I speak to a lot of people in the handmade knife world as you put it, like people who are, hand doing it, and they're very open to sharing, techniques, thoughts, experiences with people. And, you know, especially if you're a newish company, which you were, and now you've you you've got your legs solidly under underneath you and you've got a, you know, a big following, you know, now it's almost now you will be offering that same advice, because everyone has to take their bumps on the way.

Bob DeMarco [00:27:07]:
You know

Jack Billings [00:27:07]:
what I mean? Everyone has to

Bob DeMarco [00:27:08]:
take their bumps and bruises on the way and you learn and, and the whole point is being there, staying there and making a quality product. And even the thing that people were complaining about is a quality product. So

Jack Billings [00:27:20]:
Exactly. Yes. I just find a way to keep making it better and better even when people say, wow, this is fantastic. Well, guess what? Here's a '20 '20 '5 knife. It got even better.

Bob DeMarco [00:27:32]:
Well, that that's the sign of, of an artist type. Now I'm not gonna say you're an artist making art because you make tools that you can work with and art is something you hang on the wall and appreciate. So these are not wall hangers, but but you are not satisfied. And that's what, like, pretty much everyone I talk to, whether whether they're making knives or making other things, look back on their old work and they say, I I'm proud of that because that stands for a certain time in my journey, so to speak. But now, I'm further ahead and and and, by the way, there are other things I wanna keep improving. So that's that's that sort of artist mentality. It's like, kind of hard to look at your old paintings. Oh my gosh.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:17]:
I didn't know how to do hands then or whatever it is. That's so true. And and you keep moving.

Jack Billings [00:28:24]:
Yes. And just keep getting better and better with production. There's the air compressor. You can tell I make knives here. However, yes, just continuing to get better and better and better. And it's not just with the knives. It's with myself, with my skills, going into the field. Can I build a shelter? Do I know how to start a fire? These are all things that go past the knife, and they they start to go to you.

Jack Billings [00:28:53]:
And that's why I provide resources and and that's why I try and get better so I can provide better resources for people to help get better with their skills. And, that way it connects with the knife as well because the knife is great, but if you have nothing to do with it, it's like, well, it's a knife. But when there's a story behind it and there's there's really a call to action to get into the outdoors, I I think that's fantastic.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:21]:
Well tell me how that relates to the knife that you were just holding up. It's it's, and Jim Jim had it up on screen. It's a it's kind of a I think it might be that one. And let's see. It's not the clip point.

Jack Billings [00:29:34]:
But There's this one.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:36]:
That's a cool one. I wanna talk about that in a second, but, this one. Tell tell me about this knife and also, like, how this relates to what you're talking about, in terms of getting out there in the field.

Jack Billings [00:29:48]:
Yes. So this knife here, this is probably the best example for this here. So this is the twenty twenty five shed knife sheep's foot. Now the sheep's foot has been the longest running knife model of shed knives literally ever. It was the first knife I made, for a production run-in 2018. And this knife is really the ultimate camp knife because you have a nice belly there, but it's not as crazy as like the Resilience, which I'll show later on. So this knife has a ton of different, really, abilities, if we could call it. And you get the best of, I would say, all worlds, where sometimes, like, the bigger blades really focus on chopping and hard use, or the small blades like the Secure Light focus on, like, cutting open a box.

Jack Billings [00:30:37]:
Or this is, like, right in the middle, and in a way it's like a field EDC, you can do like so much with it. And I really like this knife, I've carried it for quite a long time. Every time I come out with a new version of it, I carry it. So I just love the cheap slim.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:52]:
Yeah hold that up and hold it still if you don't mind so we can take a look at that. First of all beautiful handle scales, I love I love how you're, how you're, evolving the materials you're using, I love the white liners and this is sort of a, I don't know, burnt orange with a sort of sunburst pattern. It looks beautiful. That's right.

Jack Billings [00:31:11]:
Yes. This is called skewer orange and what's cool about these colors with specifically the layered color. So this is a black orange, black orange the layered pattern here. When I take these scales off the CNC machine just sitting back there, they all look a little bit different. They all have a little different texture because from the company I get my g 10 from, which is made in Ohio, hundred percent USA Materials I know. They, the how when they make the g 10, there are very slight variations in the thicknesses of it, so that's why you get different colors like that or like the coyote tan. Literally I milled it the same way and you get like a a little different fade there from black into the tan so looks super cool.

Bob DeMarco [00:31:59]:
Hold up the sheep's foot one more one more time before we get to the clip point but a couple of questions about this design. First of all, tell me about the choice, at the tip.

Jack Billings [00:32:10]:
Yes. So a lot of people ask, did you break the tip of your knife? What's going on there? So really, this is so if you need to really stab into something, so because there's actually a lot of survival skills where if you stab your knife into a piece of wood, you can do a lot of work with that blade. You have a stronger tip when you have here, let me show you there. So you can kinda see how thick that tip is. Yeah. And this is so you have a stronger tip of the knife for kinda stabbing into stuff because the last thing you want is to risk breaking the edge of your knife and so that's why it looks like that.

Bob DeMarco [00:32:48]:
See I was thinking also and, this is speaking as someone who has never, field dressed game, but it also looks like it wouldn't, be you're not you're not too much in going to see, I can't even talk about it. It's not like you're gonna puncture the the guts with that Right. That easily.

Jack Billings [00:33:10]:
That's true. Yeah. So some people, they like to choke up on the blade there and it is a very sharp point, believe it or not. It's a very sharp point, and people can use that for taping and skinning and that sort of thing, and you won't risk really getting into some of the stuff that will ruin the meat. And, yes, that's spot on, helps with that. So, but really the the core purpose was to give a nice sharp and strong tip of the knife where you don't doubt your gear.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:40]:
Right. And tell me, you did this on all your knives, tell me about the choice to leave the pommel, just bare, the tang.

Jack Billings [00:33:49]:
Yes. So this here is so you can attach D rings to it. I was a sailing instructor Oh. In 2019 and taught people how to sail. Fantastic experience. And one thing I enjoy doing is hooking D rings to my knives so that way when I flip my boat, because I was doing small boat sailing, when I flip my boat, I don't lose my knife. Still attached to the boat. I also had some people in, I believe, 2019.

Jack Billings [00:34:19]:
I sent knives to a kayaking association in South Carolina, maybe North Carolina. One of the two. And they requested larger lanyard holes on the knobs, so that way they could attach their knives to their boat. So it's just a functional thing. Kinda hard to get a d ring around something that thick. So that's why I do, like, a little bit of a partial scale there, So you can get rope, line, d rings, whatever, and you don't lose it.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:46]:
That is cool. And I I like that explanation. Me as someone who loves tactical knives, I think of course you could hit someone in the head with that and

Jack Billings [00:34:53]:
That's right. I'll tell you, I love this feature because, yes, it's a nice survival tool, but the nickname I've given it is the attitude adjuster. People like to comply when this comes out.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:06]:
Yes. I I like that. I agree, sir. It wasn't Camp Arrowhead where you were teaching, sailing, was it?

Jack Billings [00:35:13]:
No. No. It was Rodney's scout reservation on the Chesapeake Bay in Maryland.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:19]:
Oh, oh, okay. Alright. Because, my daughter went to Arrowhead Camp and they learned sailing and stuff and I know that's somewhat close to where you are in Delaware. I thought, yeah maybe.

Jack Billings [00:35:28]:
It's same general area. Delaware isn't super big so

Bob DeMarco [00:35:33]:
but I did learn it's quite beautiful. I I know that I had driven through it a number of times but never off the beaten path and, man, I really love it. I I hope to I hope we go, through Maryland or through, Delaware again this summer, coming up. In which case, I will be dropping in on you.

Jack Billings [00:35:50]:
Please. Yes. The shop is always open for you. I'd I'd love to show it off and, we can shoot some cool videos here, get some photos, so I think you'd enjoy that. And I do have a question for you. Have you been to a knife shop to do a tour before?

Bob DeMarco [00:36:04]:
No. No. Actually, I have not been to a

Jack Billings [00:36:08]:
working knife shop, and done a tour. No. Well, maybe shed knives will be a first. So if you can come over here before someone else invites you, I'd love to have you.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:19]:
I accept. Great. So well, thank you for that invite. But also take a let's take a look at that clip point blade. I think this is a new design or it's definitely a revamping. I really like this one. I'm a huge clip point fan as you might know or Bowie knives, clip point knives. Tell tell us about this design, what the inspiration was, and some of its features.

Jack Billings [00:36:44]:
Yes. So it actually comes down to the sheep's foot as well. So the sheep's foot has a bit of a smaller handle. And a lot of outdoors guys, they have huge hands and they need big knives. So so they requested for a larger, chunkier version of an already pretty big knife. So I came out with the Tuatara, I believe, in 2022. When you release so many knives, they start to all blend together. However, the Tuatara is one of the newer designs, and it's a fantastic blade.

Jack Billings [00:37:18]:
I did the clip point, so that way you have a bit of a sharper point there compared to the sheep's foot. You have a little bit more blade edge there. And just the design of a clip point, I thought if I make bushcraft knives, if I make knives for outdoor use, literally every company that does that sells a clip point. It's like one of the knives you have to have. So I thought I gotta do that, gotta increase the handle size there and but keep keep the personality of Shed Knives in the knife no matter what design they come out with.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:53]:
So, what what are you finding are the main I'm I'm assuming that you've taken this out into the outdoors and such. Oh, yes. What are you finding are the main advantages to a

Jack Billings [00:38:03]:
clip point? Because I agree, you gotta have a clip point, but that's, I'm predisposed to that blade shape. What do you like about it? So I use the tuatara specifically for chopping wood so I can build a fire, And I like this because it allows a very wide edge for different angles of getting into wood and making kindling and that sort of thing. So I really like how if the knife if I'm batoning the knife literally with, like, a hammer or something, sometimes I use another axe. And instead of using the axe, let's use the knife. So I use the the butt of the axe and just hammer this thing into the piece of wood. And due to knots and that sort of thing, sometimes a knife will spin. Well, guess what? We still have more blade to use. So that's why that's really what I use this most for.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:56]:
I like the way that the handle is longer and and when you were showing off the sheep's foot also. Actually hold them up together so we can see that the handle sizes,

Jack Billings [00:39:05]:
again, together. So let's do this there so

Bob DeMarco [00:39:08]:
Oh, yeah. You can see there's a there's looks like a half inch more maybe on the Tuatara.

Jack Billings [00:39:14]:
Yeah so the Tuatara it's honestly a scaled up version regarding the handle compared to the sheepsfoot so everything about the Tuatara handle is just a little bit bigger and it does help. So if you're looking for a smaller handle then obviously the sheepsfoot is a great choice but if you're doing heavier use then the tuatara is a great knife for you there.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:38]:
All right keep those up there. It seems like right back here, I'll use this knife as an example, right where you have that curve headed towards the pommel, on both of these, it seems like a great place for you to kind of index your middle finger and do some some light chopping.

Jack Billings [00:39:56]:
That's right. Yes. So I have done a bit different curves on the edge here so or on the butt of the knife. So you can see this part is rounded really nice for the palm of your hand. Don't wanna mess that up. Don't want hot spots where the bottom here, that is honestly a nice mental cue to tell you, hey. You're getting close to the end of the knife. So that's a nice little cue there.

Jack Billings [00:40:20]:
And personally, I don't like to do this, but some people do. They like to get, like, honestly, towards the the very end of the knife and use it for finer tasks there. So and, yes, it's a little more flexible in the hand where this is like extremely solid, locked in, ready for battle. Where this, if you if you need to do some kind of variable tasks, we'll call it, then yes, you still have a nice comfortable spot at the end.

Bob DeMarco [00:40:47]:
Yeah. It seems like also just a great place to be holding it if you are batoning. I I I like you, use a hatchet when it's the only thing, but much prefer a knife.

Jack Billings [00:40:58]:
That's right. Yes. Yeah. So you kinda grip onto that little tail end. So wait. What is what does tuatara mean? So tuatara is a reptile from New Zealand. So it lives in a very like rainforest type environment. And, oh, as I was designing the knife for really solid fields use, I was looking at different environments in the world and trying to figure out and learn about these environments.

Jack Billings [00:41:26]:
And I came across New Zealand and some of the rainforest and just deep, deep woods they have there, and I came across the Tuatara. Now, there's another connection to the name as well. I was coming home from, I think school when I designed this knife. I designed this like my senior year of high school. I I was coming home from school and I have a poster in my garage that is a SSC Tuatara, which is a car. So I thought, no way in the world. I had just seen Tuatara the reptile literally that morning and then I come home and I see Tuatara written right there. I was like, it's meant to be.

Jack Billings [00:42:07]:
I have to do it. And here we are.

Bob DeMarco [00:42:10]:
That's so funny because you were probably looking at that poster for years, never fully registered and then you read about it and then suddenly you see Tuatara everywhere.

Jack Billings [00:42:18]:
That's right. No. That's spot on. Yeah. I had that poster since like the fifth grade or something. So, yeah, I had that poster forever and then connected the name and I was like, that's that's just a great connection there. And it's for a great knife.

Bob DeMarco [00:42:33]:
Let's let's talk about the sheathing for a minute here. First of all, I like your sheaths. They're they're, kydex. The reason I sigh so heavily is that it seems like the big buzzkill part of making knives is having to make sheaths, unless you love the kydex process and I'm certainly not taking that from anyone, but what's it like coming up with the sheath because it's half the thing, like if you don't like the sheath, if it doesn't work well, you're not gonna carry the knife. So tell me about your sheath process.

Jack Billings [00:43:08]:
Yes, so I'm gonna use the sheep's foot sheath here. Say that 10 times fast. Gonna use the sheep's foot sheath here, and I'll tell you a little bit about it and why I designed it this way. So this sheath, when I was designing my first kydex sheets in the fall of twenty twenty two, that's when I first got ahold of Kydex, I was trying to come up with the most cost effective sheath for the user as possible. And literally these have not changed since that time because I just figured it out after dozens and dozens, maybe even over a hundred different sheet styles. Seriously, it took forever. However, we got to this. Now what's great about this sheet? We have a nice, locking point right here and I'm gonna put the knife in the sheath so you see exactly what I'm talking about.

Jack Billings [00:44:01]:
So right here, you can see the handle. It's trying to get into the sheath and bang, nice click. So that knife is not going anywhere. And when you get a good angle on your sheath for any other knife makers watching, you know, once you get a good angle, a good click in your knife, it's like, oh, great. This is this is fantastic. Let's keep it. So that keeps the knife in. Then let's talk about the kinda angle right here.

Jack Billings [00:44:28]:
Mhmm. I was doing, like, these very rectangular Moxie sheets. And, again, I'm trying to cut costs for the end user. I thought if I can cut out one grommet on the knife, I can save literally, like, up to 10¢. At the time, it was, like, 10¢. Now it's a little bit less, but I can save some pennies for you. And when you do those little cost savings on every single component, that turns into, like, 10 to $20 at the end of the knife. So that's why I cut that out and also it just looks cool because you have the angle on top so it just kinda connects there.

Bob DeMarco [00:45:06]:
Yeah and also as an end user I always appreciate that. You know, I I like a curved sheath or a sheath with an angle there, because I mean, actually, your knives, I don't wear in the waistband ever. Not that kind of thing. But for that, definitely. But just in general, I mean, it's more pleasing to the eye for sure. But big square sheaths, I don't know. They they leave the old this this feels like it's made for the knife itself.

Jack Billings [00:45:36]:
That's right. Yeah. They're made for function and, sure, rectangular sheath may be functional, but we also want them to look good too. We want cool looking knives. So that's part of the whole knife collecting journey. And, I also wanna talk about the clips. So the clip here is made out of kydex as well. These are made in house just like the sheets, just like the knives.

Jack Billings [00:45:59]:
And what this is, the clip is actually a lot stronger than you think and it's very versatile. You can slide it up, down, upside down. With the sheep's foot, I actually like to carry this upside down, so I flipped the clip. But coming down to cost, again, really the sheath was like the big one. I was like, how can we make this as cheap as possible? Because I was going from not selling sheaths with my knives to now I'm gonna sell sheaths. And for a leather sheath, that's like a 20 to $40 addition. The clip, I was considering the Ulticlip, which they make great stuff. I was considering there's, like, another lock, locking clip, whatever.

Jack Billings [00:46:40]:
That was gonna add, like, $20, 15 to 20 dollars to the sheath. And I thought if I can do the clip with screws for about a dollar, great. That's fantastic. And it's functional because if I need to spend the money to make a functional knife, I will do that. But if I can find a way to make a functional knife cheaper, that's a win win. Why not do it?

Bob DeMarco [00:47:07]:
Well, so a lot of knife makers have the craft down and they have, you know, the the function of the knife down and how how it's gonna be used. But, you seem to really have a smart or developed business sense, about how the knife should be, how to maximize, the consumer's dollar and your own dollar, to make the knife the best it can be. Where did you get your business sense? How'd you develop that?

Jack Billings [00:47:38]:
The lemonade stand. How can I make as much money from one cup of lemonade as possible? So really it comes down to that. I had started little businesses, you could say, in elementary school selling various things that I would create and trying to cut cost for the end user is literally I didn't even think about it at the time like that. I just thought, like, man, why would I pay $20 for this when I can pay 5? And it's still the same thing. Maybe even better because I found an efficient way to do it. So it's really been that. That's how it started, like elementary school. But then progressing into real life business, like we have bills to pay business.

Jack Billings [00:48:20]:
It really starts coming down to like, you know what? I like my knives. I use my knives. They're great. However, there's hundreds and hundreds of people who carry my knives and really they're the majority of the people carrying the knives and there's more people than me carrying knives, obviously. So if I can change the focus from, well, what do I like to what do they need, That's really that's really a big question to answer and there's so many ways to answer it, which is why we have a ton of different knife companies and styles and variations out there because we all come up with our own way to answer it.

Bob DeMarco [00:49:00]:
Well, okay, so you've got a real entrepreneurial spirit it seems it's like part of part of who you are. That's that's a blessing because, you know, it's hard to be someone who's very, very creative and has no way how to translate that into into real world, you know, sales. And that's not just a problem in knife making, that's a problem everywhere with creative people. I know I've worked with a lot of them and interviewed a lot of them and, that's a real, you know, that's a real skill to master, to make a business fly. Now I'm I'm gonna ask you about advice to new new knife makers and people who wanna start businesses. But before I do, I wanna ask you two other things. And and Sure. First of all, I wanna see, other knives you might have out, that we haven't haven't shown off so we can all take a look.

Bob DeMarco [00:49:51]:
You have anything else out on the table for us to look at?

Jack Billings [00:49:54]:
Yeah. So I have one more knife from Shed Knives, but then I have a few others from other companies as well because I'm a knife enthusiast. I like blades. So so this is the 2025 Shed Knives Resilience.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:06]:
That is cool, man.

Jack Billings [00:50:08]:
By far, I was gonna say, the the wonkiest looking blade I make. And there's, I think, two straight pieces on this thing. It's right here and right there. Everything else has a little bit of a curve to it and keep it very brief. However, the resilience, I designed that because it was like, oh, these knives are great. They have cool handles. They look cool. Whatever.

Jack Billings [00:50:31]:
But a knife's purpose is to cut things. How can I make it the most comfortable way to cut something? So I just held an imaginary knife like this, and I started kinda tracing my hand with a marker and trying to get that shape down. And after a few cardboard cutouts, few test trials, we got the resilience. This is literally designed for your hand in the most natural state possible. And this blade truly, out of all the knives I sell, this edge becomes like one of the it's like you get a sixth finger right here that's slicey and ready to die.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:12]:
Well, wait. Hold hold it up. Don't put it down so quick. Oh, of course. So this this to me looks like a skinning knife. It also looks like a fighting knife, or a self defense knife. It it seems like this one, could have a lot of different roles. Were you thinking of any task in particular?

Jack Billings [00:51:28]:
It was really, how can I cut the best and the most comfortable? And then those things you said are quite honestly very primal things as humans. Yes. Hunting for food and defending our food and our community. So or fighting, really. So those two things, what you just said, I think that connects so well with the with the prime focus of this knife here, which was to cut in the most natural state possible. So, yes, hunting, this is like the number one knife for hunters that I sell, And it's crazy. In the fall, when hunting starts coming into season, these knives go like crazy. It's it's crazy.

Bob DeMarco [00:52:13]:
And one one last thing before you put that down. That looks like a different handle material than usual.

Jack Billings [00:52:18]:
Yes. So this is called Arctic White. This is a Burl G10. It's got a mix of white G10 and black G10. You'll notice in the 2025 Shed Knives collection, there are a few similarities with the colors. There's six colors. Three of them are burl like this, like that, and they both have black and then another color. And then the other three colors are layered like this here.

Jack Billings [00:52:47]:
So, some people like the layered, some people like the burl. I happen to like both, so that's

Bob DeMarco [00:52:52]:
why I offer both. I'm a big fan of the of the burl g tens. I I love them. So, you wanted to show off a couple of other knives that are maybe influential to you? Or

Jack Billings [00:53:03]:
Yes. So I'll I'll show a few others. So this knife I well, it's a little it's a little gritty. I've I gotta clean this thing. However, this is my zero tolerance. This is for anyone wondering the exact model, it is five six two c f. So for all the knife knife really, really detailed knife enthusiasts. So this knife, I've been carrying this literally every day since I moved into the shop.

Jack Billings [00:53:30]:
And so, yes, fixed blades are great, but you need a good folder as well. So those two complement each other. And, yeah. So pretty cool titanium, carbon fiber as well. And then this one, I love machetes. I just love big blades. So let's Oh, machetes. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:53:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's

Jack Billings [00:53:48]:
right. So this one this one I keep on my desk. So, in case somebody wants to mess around, I'm I'm ready

Bob DeMarco [00:53:55]:
for it.

Jack Billings [00:53:57]:
So so this here is an Ontario machete, and it's just it's a great blade. It's fun. I like bringing this out into the field. I like clearing paths with this. I believe I have a few videos posted clearing clearing paths and trails with this, so super cool.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:16]:
So, before you move on from this, I have an Ontario machete. It's a it's the larger one and I got I got it from a, an army navy surplus store in the early eighties. And I remember my brother, my older brother and I going to this, Swiss army, not Swiss army, this army navy surplus store. I bought one of those and then that was like the family machete for years and years and I actually cut a giant red oak in half with it. It had fallen across a trail, and my dad and I we don't we didn't have a chainsaw, and we were going at it with an ax. And I was like, hang on, dad. And I came back with that thing, and I made it through it with that. I I love Ontario machetes.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:58]:
I swear by them. I think they're awesome. So good choice, sir.

Jack Billings [00:55:02]:
Oh, yes. And that's so funny you say it's a family machete. This was my dad's. He got this thing, and we all just use the machete when we go camping. And I happen to adopt this as my personal desk machete. So

Bob DeMarco [00:55:15]:
Oh, yeah. You gotta have a

Jack Billings [00:55:16]:
Everybody needs a desk a desk knife. Agreed. I got

Bob DeMarco [00:55:20]:
a desk tomahawk. So, yeah, I agree with you, man.

Jack Billings [00:55:23]:
That's right. Yes. It's just it's just so cool when I'm working, when I'm replying to an email, whatever, and you have some knives on the table. It's like, yeah. I'm I'm the man.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:36]:
Alright. So let me ask you this. For someone who's getting ready or starting a knife company or or learning how to make knives and want wanna make a go at it, a lot of people have side hustles or are developing encore careers, you know, like someone like me who, you know, retirement is somewhere in the, you know, twenty to fifteen year future or something like that. Who knows when? But, you know, I want my life to be about knives, and I'm also a handy guy. So what would you say to someone who's, well, closer to that and is making knives and wants to make a business out of it?

Jack Billings [00:56:11]:
Do you have any advice you would offer up? Overall advice, and this is for any business, know where you are going. You have to know why you're going there and where you want to go. Otherwise, you are adrift in the wind. You will float to and to and wherever. So you have to know if you wanna do it right I mean, if you don't wanna do it, then that's fine. It's up to you. In my business school, we say you're the CEO. You get to decide.

Jack Billings [00:56:41]:
So if you wanna do it right, in my opinion, you have to know where you want to go and you have to know why you want to go there. And anything up until there, which we call the gap, that starts to solve itself if you know the destination. But then for my knife makers or people trying to make a knife business, learn. Understand your style. Understand what you're trying to do. Figure out how you can make great knives for the end user. That is how I do it. That's why I changed my business motto.

Jack Billings [00:57:18]:
It's on the box. It's on the sticker. It's in the logo. I changed it to there is no substitute because everything I do is strictly for the person who's using the knife. Yes. I like knives. Yes. I use them.

Jack Billings [00:57:31]:
However, if you can make a knife that solves their needs, solves their desire for for whatever you're trying to fulfill, fantastic. And then the last thing I'd give is once you have those things figured out, it's not gonna happen overnight. That's why you work hard. The last point is you just work endlessly. The work does not stop. Even if the passion starts to turn into more work, you still keep going because you don't forget the destination, and you don't forget why you started as well. So compile all those things together, and that's that's a nice general plan. And the rest of it, at least for me, has started to figure itself out with those guidelines.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:16]:
That's great advice, because you cannot avoid hard work in this life and you're either working hard for someone else or you're working hard for yourself so That's right. Yeah. Okay. I lied, I I do have one last question. What what can we expect from you coming up? Do you have anything in the works that we should know about?

Jack Billings [00:58:38]:
Yes, I sure do. So if you thought the Tuatara was a big knife, well wait until the Visionary and the Momentum come out which make this knife look itty bitty. So if you like big knives, then stay tuned for the visionary and the momentum. So the blanks are actually on these tables hanging out here and, yeah, ready to get those knives out.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:59]:
Well, I cannot lie. I love big knives. Jack Billings, thank you so much for joining us. Jack Billings of Shed Knives. It's, been a pleasure, sir, and I look forward to seeing you in June in Atlanta.

Jack Billings [00:59:10]:
Thank you. I appreciate it.

Bob DeMarco [00:59:12]:
Alright. Take care, sir. Alright.

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Bob DeMarco [00:59:55]:
There he goes, ladies and gentlemen. Jack Billings of Shed Knives. It was great to catch up with him, after our first interview. And, actually, there's some questions I missed. So if you're interested, you have to become a patron. To check out the rest of our interview, we'll be talking for another ten, fifteen minutes. And I have some, some other things I wanna ask him. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of the knife junkie podcast.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:21]:
For Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DeMarco saying until next time, don't take dull for an answer.

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Thanks for listening to the Knife Junkie podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate and review at reviewthepodcast.com. For show notes for today's episode, additional resources, and to listen to past episodes, visit our website, theknifejunkie.com. You can also watch our latest videos on YouTube at theknifejunkie.com/youtube. Check out some great knife photos on theknifejunkie.com/ Instagram, Instagram. And if you have a question or comment, email them to Bob@theknifejunkie.com, or call our twenty four seven listener line at (724) 466-4487, and you may hear your comment or question answered on an upcoming episode of the Knife Junkie podcast.