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Announcer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob the knife junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:16]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast. I'm Bob DeMarco. On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with Kevin Burgess of Burgess Forge. I first saw Kevin on Forged in Fire on which he forged a championship Pira, A Filipino short sword that I've always loved. He was featured on a 2nd episode as well, but I met Kevin at the Texas Custom Knife Show Where I got a chance to talk with him for a while and check out his beautifully forged buoys in person. We'll check out Kevin's work and find out how he came to be A journeyman bladesmith, but first, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, hit the notification bell, and download the show to your favorite, podcast app so you can listen on the go. Also, if you wanna help support the show, you can do that on Patreon. Quickest way to do that is go to the knife junkie.com/patreon Or scan the QR code on the screen.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:07]:
Again, that's the knife junkie.com/patreon.

Announcer [00:01:10]:
Have a knife you want featured or reviewed? Call the Knife Junkies 247 listener line at 724-466-4487, and let us know.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:20]:
Hey, Kevin. Good to see you. Welcome back, and, welcome to the knife junkie podcast.

Kevin Burgess [00:01:24]:
It's good to be here. Good to finally be on.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:27]:
Yeah. I said welcome back, but, really, It's it's more like good to see you again. It's been, you know, about a month ago, maybe a little bit longer. We were in the Texas I was in the Texas, heat with you, and we were

Kevin Burgess [00:01:41]:
I was

Bob DeMarco [00:01:42]:
holding your bowies, and we were talking. So it's good to see you again. How did that show go for you?

Kevin Burgess [00:01:48]:
Yeah. It actually went pretty well. I actually ended up selling a couple of knives there. I actually sold 1 for my journeyman sets, to a guy who just came up and was like, hey, I want that one. It's like, oh, cool. That's always those are always the really fun sounds, you know. It's like, you know what, I want that one. Then go ahead and just pick it up and, You know, just swipe a credit card or whatever.

Kevin Burgess [00:02:08]:
That's always the good ones, right?

Bob DeMarco [00:02:10]:
Yeah, yeah, and you're not talking them into anything,

Kevin Burgess [00:02:13]:
or you're

Bob DeMarco [00:02:13]:
not They just have their mind set. So you said you're journeyman set, and you mentioned in your intro that you're a journeyman bladesmith, but what does that mean really? And tell us about that.

Kevin Burgess [00:02:25]:
Yeah. So, as far as for me, the journeyman set really goes as far as showing your Craftsmanship as a bladesmith and kind of what tends to be, at least in your base natures, the primary, Kind of pillar on which everything else goes out from. So if you can make a journeyman's set, you can make a Master Smith set because everything's pretty much there. The lines are straight, everything's clean, everything's well put together. And after that point, it's just kind of, you know, embellishing it, you know, a little bit more, putting a little flair on it. And so that's kind of, you know, why I went after this because it shows a certain level of knowledge on what you're doing.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:06]:
So at Journeyman, that's like the 1st level of, mastery before becoming a master in the Yeah. American Bladesmith Society. Is that right?

Kevin Burgess [00:03:16]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, so there's The Apprentice and then there's Journeyman. No. Apprentice right now is Kind of you hey, you joined with the ABS and, you have you know, they don't have anything currently, but I am hoping that in the future, they're looking towards possibly maybe Doing something where you have some contest for an apprentice or at least I'm gonna hope that way because I think it'd be fun, you know, just kind of get people more involved in the community because that's Kinda at the end of the day, what we all are as bladesmiths is just one really big community. You know, I I know people always talk about, you know, On these, you know, kind of Forged and Fire like shows, like what was one of them? Inks. You ever watched Inks?

Bob DeMarco [00:03:58]:
I have not, but I'm familiar with the format.

Kevin Burgess [00:04:01]:
Yeah. So it's just it's that, but with a bunch of tattoo artists, and some of them are It's really nasty towards each other, but whereas with, you know, with Forged in Fire, we are told before getting on set and starting up, You cannot physically help people with their knives. Because I guarantee you, if people were allowed to physically help people with making their knives, if something happens, you know, some guy, you know, Heat stroke or something like that, or, you know, maybe they just, you know, have something happen that they can't do a certain process Do I, you know, if it wasn't for that rule, I guarantee you'd see at least every couple of episodes, somebody like, you know, hey, let me grind on yours for a little bit. Mine's blowing up anyways, you know, just something like that.

Bob DeMarco [00:04:40]:
Well, that's something I hear consistently, whether I mean, not just from people who compete, like, on Forged in Fire, but just, the knife community in general being a place of of great generosity in terms of, I mean, collectors like myself and and, you know, people who review knives and stuff, but also, makers, how generous they are with their information And their, I don't know, hard hard earned, hard won sort of techniques and stuff. So journeyman, what what's your journeyman test like, and And what does that mean?

Kevin Burgess [00:05:17]:
So as far as the journeyman test, you can get so there's 2 parts to the journeyman test. So you have your first part, which is your performance test, Okay. So you make a knife between, I think it's the current rules on it are 8 10 inches long, 15 inches overall, maximum and has to be 2 inches wide. Well, you have to make that knife. It has to go through, you know, performance tests, that including 1 inch Thick, rope slice in 1 slice. You gotta go through a 2 by 4 a couple of times and still shave hair at the very end of it. And then the big one to everybody, you know, if you've been on Instagram or Facebook or whatever, you've probably seen a journeyman test at one point where they're sticking that knife in the device and just bending that overnight, it reads. And that's and that's kinda like big one.

Kevin Burgess [00:06:01]:
You know, hey, do you really understand heat treat? Because anybody can make a knife that holds a good edge That is, you know, relatively durable, but it takes that more advanced knowledge to be able to bring that into a knife, but also have it survive something that's, You know, more than catastrophic, you know, more than anything you'd ever see anybody do in the field. Perfect.

Bob DeMarco [00:06:23]:
The the British, What is that called? The British sword test or something like that? The British Yeah.

Kevin Burgess [00:06:28]:
Yeah. I think I've heard of that. You know? Just kinda see where it goes.

Bob DeMarco [00:06:32]:
So, basically, they put the blade in a vice. Mhmm. Right? And this is one of those beautiful, beautiful buoys that you labored over to bring to the test, one of 5 knives of various sizes, I guess, that you bring to your journeyman. And this test is usually a blade show, right, in Atlanta?

Kevin Burgess [00:06:54]:
Well, so for the performance test, you actually go to a master Smith shop and that's, You know, kind of why I hope that eventually they'll do something with apprentice. But you have to go to a master's shop, and basically Tested with them. I actually tested with Lynn Bray. He was a great guy to test under. Went to his went to the kind of museum that he runs and he's at Down in Arkansas and it was just a one hold on.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:18]:
That's cool. Well, I I just I I want to, for people who don't know, I wanna describe this test because, it's absolute torture, especially to people who cherish knives and who don't make them and who think they're beautiful, things to think of putting one of your knives, any one of the ones I saw, in a vise, and then you put a pipe over the handle, so you have leverage to just Crank on it and bend that blade, and then, you I guess the goal is to get to near 90 And then return it to and and then it should return to true. And that that is a true test of Your ability to heat treat and temper a blade. Right?

Kevin Burgess [00:08:02]:
Well, one thing that I actually will correct you on, is that it doesn't have to return the shoe.

Bob DeMarco [00:08:07]:
Oh, okay. Okay.

Kevin Burgess [00:08:08]:
It would be cool if your knife returned to true, but usually they do they do take a set. You know, and it is to a 90 degree. You have these old guys, you know, with Copa Glasses out there trying to judge 90. That's That's always fun, but, yeah. They, but yeah, no, they're looking from the side for that 290, and then they're seeing what you have. And actually, I think I have it In this case, just off screen. So I'm gonna quickly reach on over. I didn't even think about pointing it to s.

Kevin Burgess [00:08:39]:
There it is. So this is actually the journeyman knife here. I'll go this way. This is the journeyman knife that I made. And I'm a huge proponent of forging our blades, so I'm gonna kind of divulge a little bit. If you wanna call yourself a knife maker, that's fine Fine if you're just gonna talk a little bit, but I think that to be called a bladesmith specifically, you have to forge a blades. And that's why I specifically chose this one. And you can actually see right there, I have a little bit of the Kiesler integral guard on there.

Kevin Burgess [00:09:13]:
Oh, nice. Just because I like I like forging, you know. That's one of the that's one of the things that really interests me is, doing a good job at forging, and So, I've decided to make it kind of one of my interests as I kinda continue on with this as a career.

Bob DeMarco [00:09:29]:
Well, I think with forging, you know, there are ways, if okay. So I I had an art upbringing, And, if you look at stock removal, you could see that as pop art in a way or art that you can, easily reproduce for the masses, which is awesome. And and all that being said, Stop or move. I'm not saying that it's easy to have a business doing that. I'm just saying it's repeatable in a way that forging is not, and and then the forging would be more like, the painter who takes a long time to make 1 painting and it's, you know, it's unveiled and it's a kind of a, each individual is an individual in a in a different sort of way.

Kevin Burgess [00:10:16]:
Yeah. No. I think you really hit it on the head. I mean, it's kind of it's Each one, you know, each hand blow that you do, each, you know, little just indent in there. You can try, you know, you can try for the rest of your life to make The exact same forged knife, but in your lifetime, you probably won't ever hit it. You know, it's just it's such a unique thing.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:36]:
Well, okay. So how did you get into this? I mean, obviously, you're you're, you're accomplished. You seem like a young man to me, and you're and you also seem accomplished in this, craft this art that is, you know, takes some doing. It's not something that you just, jump into and You're great at, but I mean, what really what is like that? Yeah. Not much worth doing, but, how'd you get into it, and, how did you become serious about it?

Kevin Burgess [00:11:04]:
I gotta tell you, so my story is I'm a giant nerd. I We love video games, anime, TV shows, all that, you know, the whole 9 yards. And whenever I was still kind of in in my high school, we we were actually given computers, so our school ended up testing a software program that ended up going out to pretty much everybody else. And I remember just one day finding oh, I can't even remember who it was. It might have been Alex Steele or some or something like that on, On YouTube, whenever I first found them, but it's like I went down a rabbit hole. And there was a good period of probably 2 or 3 years where I watched Every single, you know, blacksmith playsmithing video I'm using because I'm like, okay. It says lunchtime, what am I gonna do with, you know, after everything? So I just watched Watched YouTube videos on making knives and, and Omni. That that's where I was, going with that is, if you've ever seen, Omni with, Matt Stagler, Nolia, and a few and a few other people in their shop.

Bob DeMarco [00:12:08]:
That sounds so familiar.

Kevin Burgess [00:12:09]:
Yeah. What was it? Man at Arms. Yeah. Do you remember Madder Arms reports and all that?

Bob DeMarco [00:12:15]:
Yeah. Yes.

Kevin Burgess [00:12:15]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think the episode that really did it, that kinda made me, like, Wow, that's really cool. It was actually back in the original, Man at Arms. It was whenever they made Sokka from Avatar the Last Airbender, whenever they had made his sword with meteorite. You know, little little 15 year old me, my eyes lit up, and it was it was all downhill from there.

Bob DeMarco [00:12:37]:
That is funny. Making knives. That's Avatar. Right? Mhmm.

Kevin Burgess [00:12:42]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:12:42]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's a show that, my my, daughter watches. So that's funny for me to hear because, I'm, twice your age. Not not to not not to highlight my My age are the ageist, but it's funny to hear you say that because I had a huge, you know, I was always a, You know, artist, a drawer when I was a kid, and I was really into I never played Dungeons and Dragons. I know that you you're big into it, but I was very influenced by the art on that and then the art on the sci fi books that my best friend used to read. I didn't like the books, but I loved the art. Mhmm.

Bob DeMarco [00:13:21]:
So you were saying that you're influenced by this kinda stuff, and yet your style, when you look at your work, it seems very traditional American. How do you how do you account for that?

Kevin Burgess [00:13:37]:
It's it's more so what got me interested, than any one particular Because I originally found this, you know, because little movies like, okay, I wanna make, what was it, kunai from Naruto or, you know, any kind of Any kind of Japanese blade honestly with most of the animes that I used to watch. But, after Trying to make stuff like that, I was like, wow, okay. There's a lot that goes into this and then that's where I really dived into everything. I was like, okay, What's gonna make, you know, what flows well, what, you know, cuts well, what, you know, feels good in the hand, And then it was just that side of YouTube afterwards of like, okay, here's how you actually make it into a craft. And Maybe it's just the fact that I'm in the sticks of east Texas. Maybe it's the fact that, you know, I just like buoys. I think I just really like buoys. That that ended up being my main style.

Kevin Burgess [00:14:32]:
As, you know, as much as I enjoy the nerdy stuff as me as a person, it's it's just not my style as a maker. You know what I mean?

Bob DeMarco [00:14:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. I do. And, it's interesting because, if if you can differentiate between the fantasy, world of, those kind of animes and how those weapons look. And then and then look at the real world, examples, you're gonna come down on your side every time, and I guess what I mean by that is and I'm gonna go the long way around here. Sorry, Kevin. But Conan the Barbarian, the original, one of my favorite movies of all time, and then we we all know that the swords were amazing. And then in 20, I don't know, 13, they remade it with Jason Momoa.

Bob DeMarco [00:15:16]:
Good casting for Conan the Barbarian, I would say, but the swords were atrocious. They looked like they were inflated like balloons, And, it really was distracting for me, and I think it probably added to how bad the movie was. So if you if you can't Kinda look at what's realistic and then kind of recognize that some things are fantasy and should be left in the animated world, And don't try and reproduce that in a live action. So, well, I would imagine that that that really actually plays out, as a knife maker because you wanna make a useful tool as well as something beautiful, right?

Kevin Burgess [00:15:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. You know, a lot of people have this kind of, you know, with knives being separated into an art category versus a use And I think there is a place for that, but I think that the, at the level of making That is required for something to exit the world of being a knife and purely being an art piece, and this is actually gonna go a little bit into my My art upbringing, the few years college that I did it, you know, I think that, you know, if we're gonna talk on a semantic basis on, you know, what makes art, I think that, you know, For the vast majority of people, we still make these beautiful tools, but They should all still be useful. You know, I think that that level of craftsmanship that, you know, is required to take it into purely just being art, most people, probably aren't gonna want to do because I think that most people at the end of the day, you know, internally want to make something that's useful. It's wonderful to make something for the beauty of it, but I think that, you know, a lot of people, you know, in that get into this is primarily to be a maker, You know, and I think that kinda translates into most people probably wanting to have that, you know, it could be beautiful, you know, a, you know, work Bob that, you know, nobody's ever in the museum. Some Damascus, Just, you know, mammoth ivory, gold encrusted, you know, whatever knife. But at the end of the day, I think that the true craftsmen that are doing a really good thing is Making those beautiful knives, but also making it so that they aren't just mounting pieces that you could, you know, zombie apocalypse happens, all that good stuff, you could use it.

Bob DeMarco [00:17:35]:
Right. And you wanna be the classiest zombie slayer on the block. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I feel like, with the with the art, you know, with art, if you really wanna make something that's truly only beautiful, then you don't make something that's also useful. I I can never quite Get to calling a knife, art if you can cut with it. It's designed to me.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:00]:
It's it's artful design or whatever, but it's, you know, even if it yeah. Yeah. We could we could we could talk about that that all day, but but I think, like, Having an artful approach to everything, is is let's we've talked abstractly. Let's see some of your work, Yeah. Besides besides the bent journeyman work so that people know what we're talking about here.

Kevin Burgess [00:18:26]:
Yeah. Let's look at let's look at the crowd favorite. This one is My personal favorite just because it is just kind of that classic buoy. It's got a little scroll guard on there. I decided to just do a flat one just because I wanted to kind of play it a little bit safer just because of the size of this thing and also, you know, bugs. I don't know if it's not.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:52]:
So it almost looks like the sound hole on a violin almost.

Kevin Burgess [00:18:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. It kinda does, doesn't it? Never really thought about that, but yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:01]:
So that's a Musso style blade.

Kevin Burgess [00:19:04]:
Right? Yes.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:06]:
And who was Musso? I I I know I use the the name, but I I don't really know the story.

Kevin Burgess [00:19:11]:
So I'm gonna I'm gonna surprise you. I also don't know.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:15]:
Oh, okay.

Kevin Burgess [00:19:16]:
I know I know the name. I I looked at a lot of I have looked at specifically a lot of Mussoblades because that actually ended up being, I'll call probably 2 from my set. Here. One second. Let's go. There we go. This one's this one's showing up just a little bit darker than this. Yeah.

Kevin Burgess [00:19:37]:
It is that dark. It's just the lighting in the room, but it's normally A little bit browner, a light brown, a walnut color. But, but yeah. No. I'm a surprise you too. I don't know He is the history of Musso either.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:51]:
And and the the the thing is is I have known. It's just gone through my head Like a sieve, unfortunately.

Kevin Burgess [00:19:58]:
Like all good information. Right?

Bob DeMarco [00:20:00]:
Yeah. Exactly. So we know that you love Buoys, but how would you characterize your knives? Are people buying them and, I mean, they are Definitely worthy of putting in a glass case. And if I had 1, I wouldn't have any use for it, but just pure appreciation because I live a pretty, A low speed lifestyle. But what what do your customers come to you for, and and how do you Characterize your knives to the public.

Kevin Burgess [00:20:30]:
Yeah. So as far as my custom work, like whenever I just can be able to, you know, Kind of creative freedom is like, hey, make me a Bowie knife. You know, that was one of the That's kind of like my favorite words whenever I get a custom order is, hey, make me a Bowie knife. Here's my budget. But I like to draw, I like to actually have my clients kinda help me in the drawing, in the initial drawing process of, Hey, here's what we're making, here's what we're kind of abstracting and with some people I've like, because I know them a little bit better, I've actually specifically asked them To draw me up what they want because I wanna see their interpretation of what, you know, they think looks like a cool knife. And what's really interesting is looking over what people, you know, kind of make is you see, you know, certain, you know, characteristics even though beef people probably never heard of Musso Or James Black or any, you know, kind of big knife making name, you still see a lot of influences. Like, okay, so this person has a lot of Kind of, you know, the Arkansas toothpick style to them. They want to be nice, leans, pointy, you know, or you know, Whatever other Bowie design that they might think of, but it's really interesting to have them do work with you and kind of make their dream life From there,

Bob DeMarco [00:21:49]:
is this at all related to you you told me that you studied jewelry making. Yes. Does this relate in terms of your approach and the process that you learn? Because that was a formal education you got there.

Kevin Burgess [00:22:05]:
Right? Yeah. Yes.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:07]:
So, how how did that how how did the process that you learned, in jewelry, how does that how has that carried over into knife making?

Kevin Burgess [00:22:17]:
A lot of it because that was because those college years of, you know, learning to make jewelry is kind of whenever I really kinda dug into this and learned The finer points, I actually went and took the ABS intro to bladesmithing, you know, their 2 week long class. Now I really started getting into it and it's really just the step after step system of, okay, you do this, you do this, this, and that final, you know. Those are your steps. Here's why we do those steps. So like if we have to say I'm setting a stone in something, I want to polish out the inside, you know, inside of that bezel where I'm not gonna be able to get to, later on without scratching up a stone or getting past metal or whatever. I wanna, you know, polish that now, set the stone, and then that way I don't have to worry about it. And kind of the same thing goes, you know, with knife making. You know, whatever I'm putting on a handle, I want to polish up the little this little front bit of the handle before, you know, I put it on because I'm not really gonna be able to get there once I'm, you know, I'm all glued up and everything on the knife.

Kevin Burgess [00:23:20]:
You know, you can't really get in there. I think that, you know, just the 1, 2, 3 step process has Really helped me kind of dial in. It's like, okay, I need to really think about this. How is it gonna impact, you know, what I'm doing later in step 5 when I'm doing step 1, and all those kind of things. I think that was a really big help as far as actually making this more, Of a smooth process instead of just a monkey flailing. Mhmm.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:45]:
Yeah. I I think the the sort of comfort of having a, A checklist is important in, and it's not just, you know, you know, and I mean in creativity, not just in flying a plane or Or building a house, but even in the most creative sort of, ventures, like, with what I do at work Or with what I do, you know, outside of work. Oftentimes they require, me doing the same actions in the same order And developing a system for them. That's one of the things I've tried to instill in my in my daughters is is part of the fun of, like, Learning, I wish I knew this when I was younger. Like and now I'm saying it like I knew it all along.

Kevin Burgess [00:24:29]:
Yeah. Teach me your wisdom, old man. Let's hear it.

Bob DeMarco [00:24:33]:
Part of the fun, and I know you know this and this is kinda what you're talking about, is developing a system. I know where I'm going. I've done it a few times this way and that way, and Some of this has worked and some of that has worked. Let's figure out the best way to make this repeatable and, and and enjoyable. And and And, well, I mean, to me, that that is something that took me a while to discover for myself, and, I think that that can be comforting in certain Certain kind of processes and processes like, especially like knife making.

Kevin Burgess [00:25:06]:
Yeah. Definitely. I mean, just kind of like forging, You know, like I said, we're gonna go back going back into forging, you know. You force the tip first, then you, you know, once you have the tip, You know, you start drawing on choil. After that, you start getting some length and width on the blade, and then just do your final and then do your final clean up origin from there. Simplified, but bear with me. I don't describe forging for an hour. But, you know, just kind of that step by step of, You know, of doing those, you know, just very fundamental things really helps in cementing them in your mind and maybe really really proficient with them.

Bob DeMarco [00:25:48]:
Well, so how did that, help you in going into, Forged in Fire, for instance? This is taking your Passion and your love and and it's more you know, when you're doing something like that, it's also something you hate and you struggle with too, I'm I'm sure, but but it's your passion for sure. So how did how did how did you translate that in the systems you sort of, Made for yourself in your home forge when you weren't under the gun. Tell us about going into the competition.

Kevin Burgess [00:26:20]:
Going into Forged in Fire, man, that is truly, and I'm gonna feel a little bit old for saying this, but going back into Forged in Fire, I still remember me and my friends, just we had a little discord server full of bunch of us younger, bladesmiths. I remember we did a Forged in Fire challenge during 1 summer, and I came in 2nd place on that one too. Actually, Will later ended up being another Forged in Fire champion. But kind of the the process in setting up that process and taking it from home to the forge, it was Actually, it was really similar. I'll tell you what. I know that a lot of people have had, you know, weird stories just because of the challenges that they were through, thrown into, but for me, it was harvesting steel off a wheel, which is really just these little bits of, you know, 10.95 that We then stacked up and it's like, I've done this a 1000000 times in making Damascus. And that 1st round, you know, except for remembering where to go to stand in front Fan versus, you know, going to the power hammer and not just kind of close my eyes, pretend like I'm in my own forge. You know, it was That 1st round was I've done this a 1000 times, you know, just went through the process, just almost automated.

Bob DeMarco [00:27:36]:
And what did you have to make, a big 13 inch?

Kevin Burgess [00:27:39]:
Yeah. It was it was a yeah. It was like a 13 inch, you know, knife of your own design. You make it, you know, however you want. And I think what was the challenge is we had to chop into a boat cleat. That was it. We had to chop into a boat cleat. And I'll tell you another thing is I can't remember what the other challenge was because we actually didn't get to it.

Kevin Burgess [00:28:02]:
And, also in the making, I was I was just making a knife how I normally do. I wasn't really thinking about challenges all that much, because it's like I know what I make is, you know, Good knife, and I remember thinking afterwards, whenever I saw the boat cleats like, oh yeah, that's right. We have to chop into a boat cleat. I probably should've put a little more meat behind the edge, but, you know, it ended up that my knife ended up actually surviving from the best out of the 3 that were tested. The other 2 actually had, failures on their blade.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:31]:
Man, it it it's a daunting thing to watch those tests. Yeah. Because you see how much blood, sweat, and tears go into making those knives in that quick amount of time and then just to see them. You know? And and and also it's, you know, in in one way, it's a real test, of this myth and, you know, how good they are. But in another way, it's it's also not necessarily the most Fair. But it's a competition. That's the point. But, I mean, like, most people aren't really forging under those circumstances, so they might have a different Peace and all that.

Kevin Burgess [00:29:10]:
Oh yeah. I remember one of the things, because I the guy that I actually lost to, he's just another state member, but I brought him for like a couple of weeks to make knives together. And I remember during that couple of weeks, we actually made it land so that we go to one of the ABS Hammarons, which You haven't gone by the way. I highly suggest going to just find a hammer in there, you go to 1, they're great. But I remember both of us came up and we Brought our blades and we were like, hey, can you judge this? You know, because I forget who we had judge our blades, but it was one of the master smiths that was there and we was like, hey, You know, Judge R Blades and he gave us some criticism on both ends. But he was like, yeah, no, I know. You know, and that's Whatever I do in my own shop, I could never do on that show, because it takes me, you know, a day to grind a blade. It takes me, You know, a day to put on the handles make it perfect, but that's because he's a master smith.

Kevin Burgess [00:30:08]:
We are very much so not master smiths, especially at the time. And, you know, just because somebody fails there, they might be an amazing smith and just because something somebody does great there, maybe they, you know, they might not be the S. Smith and Wrolf, still good. They made it to the Bob, obviously, but I think that it's, you know, it speaks volumes that, You know, just anybody's able to do anything in that short of a time. You know, for all of those, my knife making brothers out there and sisters, it's hard. It's very hard work.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:42]:
Well, you, made it to the finals on your on your show, and, Tell us about the weapon.

Kevin Burgess [00:30:51]:
The Pura. That was a fun one. Yeah, because I'm noticing a few sores that I remember seeing whenever I, Whenever I was doing my research on the plane back. But yeah, no, the Piro was just a really fun way that just It was just so weird, man. Because I never made those kinds of blades before. I'd always I'm always very, you know, as you might be able to tell them, a bit western in my style. So I don't I didn't have really that kind of Filipino background, a whole lot. So, it was kind of a shock initially seeing that, But it was just it was a crazy blade.

Kevin Burgess [00:31:28]:
I remember, one of the things I did is I wanted to do a lot of research on this. I knew that I wanted to have this be kind of a special piece Because that might be be the one thing that sends over. I remember I learned, and you're gonna have to pardon me if I'm butchering the names of it, but I think it was called like an areca nut. An eureca nut and apple hoi hoi leaf. That, apparently, so whenever you are a new person within this particular tribe that what developed, I think it was the Yakin tribe or Yakin tribe, that developed the Piera. Apparently, whenever you like go into their village, kind of the hi hello meal is a areca nut and a ahoyhoy leaf, And you're you're supposed to eat it, and that's kinda like your, hey, you're welcome to the village. And I decided to put that since I'm kind of an outsider coming into their culture for the 1st time, and I decided to actually put that on the Side of the handle, because there's just all that, you know, area kinda behind that I, you know, if you remember the, rotor blade, I just kinda had it like off painting off, whereas if you look a little bit more traditional, It kinda follows the arm a little bit more. Yeah.

Kevin Burgess [00:32:33]:
Yeah. I just wanted it out of the way. I didn't wanna mess with it. But, But, yeah, no. I remember carving all that in there because, you know, do some research on your knives, you know. Make If if you're making a Knife that belongs to some culture, you know, people or whatever, do a little bit of research on it. Do good by them, you know. It's it's it's fun, it's interesting to learn about all these different cultures, why they did certain things, you know, what influenced them, you know.

Kevin Burgess [00:33:02]:
Yeah. Looking, you know, around the world and blames on it, it's just, it's a really interesting thing that I think more people need to take a look at.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:09]:
Yeah. And the Philippines are an incredible place to look because so many islands, so many, you know, communities and all have their own blade designs with their own uses and stuff and, just beautiful stuff and exotic looking and very, very Effective. So did did working on that and, kinda stepping out of your comfort zone to make that, did that influence the work you did afterward? Did it open up your eyes to things?

Kevin Burgess [00:33:42]:
I'd like to say yes, but, it was an interesting task to make something that big. Definitely with learning how to make larger, larger blades, that's Obviously helpful, I think, to anybody because if you can if you can make a long blade good, if you can make a long sword, you can make a dagger kind of thing. It's, just it it helps push those skills out. Like, okay, I do have them, but I never, Sadly, I never continued with anything in that kind of realm of knife making. I do plan on it eventually. I actually still have The original little bill of metal that they gave me for, for my bureau, you know, whenever they send you I I don't know if I'm allowed to Say this, but I'm pretty sure I am. This is not anything particular. But, they actually send you home with what with an amount of steel that Should make the weapon, that way you'd be able to have to like special order stuff, you know, all that.

Kevin Burgess [00:34:35]:
That's cool. Yeah. And I actually still have that out in the shop. And same thing actually for the long sword, for my second episode. Well, I have both of those out in the shop one of these days. I'm gonna, you know, why not actually see if I can make it out of what they gave me.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:49]:
So did you get to keep any of the weapons you made?

Kevin Burgess [00:34:53]:
I did keep get to keep the long sword. However, I looked for it, And it was in a gun case. And I do not know where that gun case is right now. Oh, okay. It is mixed it's mixed in with a bunch of other gun cases, and it's like, I Don't feel like bothering other people for looking for it. So sadly, I do not have the weapon sword to show off,

Bob DeMarco [00:35:13]:
but let's hope, let's hope you don't need a gun And you open up that case, and you're like, oh, sword. Almost.

Kevin Burgess [00:35:21]:
Yeah. Yeah. Go go in, you know, instead of, Instead of just, racking a shotgun, it's more of a habapathy, you know, all that stuff.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:32]:
Yes. Stand and deliver, sir. So you had so the pira is, like, about a 29 inch bladed sword, I think, or knife, you know, if it's anything like Most almost all the Filipino swords kinda fall into a certain measure. But but then you said you did a long sword. What what was the, you know, History Channel is the host of that show, and so everything has to have a historical Attachment, what was the actual sword you're supposed to make? I know European, but what was it?

Kevin Burgess [00:36:03]:
It was a German long I remember because that thing was near to about here on me. I'm not a very, I'm gonna out myself. I'm not a very tall person, but I think the blade was 38 inches and then there was 10 more inches to handle. Wow. So, Not not a whole lot, you know, it's not a very insignificant blade. It was definitely a challenge to grind, but, yeah, no, that So that that German longsword was definitely a beast.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:35]:
So did you have to, retrofit or Or buy a new forge, or how do you like, you know, when you're not making swords, how do you suddenly pivot into that?

Kevin Burgess [00:36:47]:
Here's what you do. You you get you, you know, you get past round 3 is like, okay, I'm going home to make things and you you call your parents, just like, Hey, do we have any, deep gallon drums, metal drums anywhere on the property? And they say no, and then After some finagling, you find someone and you get them home. But yeah, no, I owe a lot to my parents for, you know, helping me out with this. But our, yeah. They, the week, you know, that kind of that day of travel back, because you're allowed 2 days to kind of prepare. And for those 2 days, I remember spending one of the days making the, Dawn Fogg style heat treating kiln. It's, It's, just what all it is is just 2 50 gallon barrel drums stacked on top of each other with some kaolwool around it. And it does a great job at heat treating the source, and that's But I had to use because I couldn't make another forge that would, you know, accommodate something that big nor that I really want to.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:46]:
So, in terms of your knife making in general and and Burgess Forge, How what's your business trajectory like, if if that makes sense? Like

Kevin Burgess [00:37:58]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:59]:
What what is it? Describe your business and and then describe what it's like a day at the job.

Kevin Burgess [00:38:07]:
Yeah. So actually right now, I'm in the process of actually, sadly or happily, depending on how you want to look at it. I'm actually Transferring over to having this be more of a very intense hobby. Very very intense hobby, because I'm actually taking on a job as a, I'm I'm now a roofing salesman if you can believe it. I figured if I can Oh, knives. I can probably sell roofer to you. But, so what we're, so that's just kind of the transfer over into just kinda having this be a side thing. And some people is like, oh, man, you know, it didn't make it.

Kevin Burgess [00:38:46]:
Well, you know what? Yeah. Yeah. I don't get to be my own boss anymore, but I will tell you. I don't have to, you know, stand at a grinder for, you know, the entire day just grinding the same type of knife, Because I have a, you know, an order for 20 whatever knives, you know. And I think and and I get to just make things that make me happy. You get to Validate my kind of work creative side, and you know what, I'll I'll take it, you know.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:13]:
Yeah, especially if your If you're a business model and you want your business model to be what a lot of knife makers strive for, which is making what you want, Putting it up and people, you know, people who follow you and people who like your work Mhmm. Snatch it up. To me, that seems like, you know, the The dream job right there. Yeah. And and and not for nothing, at my daughter's recent birthday party, one of her, one of her children's fathers, is there a a roof regional dude, and, they do very well. So, that's a great way to support a knife making habit / Bob because,

Kevin Burgess [00:39:55]:
very excited.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:57]:
Yeah. It can be a a hard road to hoe, and I I Luxury goods are are always in demand, but, you know, the question is, how many hand forged buoys, are people looking for? And, I mean, I'm sure that's something that never goes out of style. Mhmm.

Kevin Burgess [00:40:15]:
But it's, you know, I mean I mean, let's be frank. The Economy is what the economy is nowadays. You know, things are getting more expensive. You know, kind of kind of one of the things that made me kind of think, okay, I have to sit down. Is this, you know, a good long term for me? And, you know, eventually came to the no conclusion was, you know, Recently got a state, recently in like a pretty stable relationship. You know, kinda wanting to have my own house, you You know, kind of being able to afford those kinds of things. You know, and it's just like, yeah, I could scrape by on knives. I could pay rent with knives.

Kevin Burgess [00:40:55]:
I Do all that with knives, but I'd like to have a little bit more. You know what I mean?

Bob DeMarco [00:41:01]:
Mhmm. Yes, I do. I do indeed. I mean, this is, this is something most people face or a lot of people face, especially if they have a A passion that is in any way impractical. Like, if your passion isn't stockbroking,

Kevin Burgess [00:41:16]:
you know Yeah. It

Bob DeMarco [00:41:17]:
could it can be impractical, and, but, yeah, and and plus, when you have, when you have maybe some time and you have already a lot of skill Built up. You never know where life's gonna take you, and you never know, where having this intense, Hobby and talent and drive because you're still planning on becoming a master smith, I would imagine.

Kevin Burgess [00:41:43]:
Oh, yeah. You know, you

Bob DeMarco [00:41:45]:
never know where that's gonna take you, and right now, given the circumstances, it sounds like You're you're doing what you gotta do, doing the responsible thing. Mhmm. Well, I I have a question because I keep looking over your shoulder at the knives. I wanna see some more. But also, I wanna know about leather work. So while you're grabbing a couple of,

Kevin Burgess [00:42:08]:
knives. Here, let me show off. So this is from my personal favorite. So this ain't mine. That's true. That's true. I wish it was mine. I wish I could say that, I did all this leather work, but Let's see if it won't focus.

Bob DeMarco [00:42:32]:
Who is that? I see a big s.

Kevin Burgess [00:42:35]:
Yeah, it's Smith Salisbury. He is actually A local sheriff was game warden, you know, you know the story. Local old sheriff guy, you know, he did saddle work, you know, every small town's got one. And, yeah. No. I I found them actually through, I was doing a knife for a client and he's like, hey, I wanted it I want your knife, But I want the sheath from this guy. And and I got in touch with him. He actually made the sheath in front of me, I remember, because it was just a little tiny sheath Oh, hunter, I made him.

Kevin Burgess [00:43:07]:
But he wanted his, he wanted his name embroidered on it, or engraved, whatever you wanna call it with the Patterning and he put his name on there and sewed it together and I was out the door in 20 minutes with the sheet and I was like, wow, that was that was crazy, you know, tooled and everything. And so that was just kind of the, you know, kind of like Light bulb moment. I see moment for me. I didn't have to spend so much time on making, on making new knives Or making machines. But, yeah, let me grab, another one that I really like. This is One that I made a while back, actually.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:51]:
Yes. I remember this one. That's a double edged. That's a fully double edged knife,

Kevin Burgess [00:43:56]:
but And I got silver inlay all the way around it, because I, so this this goes kinda actually, if I'm not mistaken, it's been a while since it's actually been a while since I made this knife. But, I remember I watched, I think it was, Alan Newberry. Newberry? Yeah. I watched one of his videos on, some wire inlay. I was like, that looks like a lot of fun. And I have something that I wanted to put a coffin handle on anyways. And so this knife then got a whole lot of silver put into it and, I'm just really happy with it. It just it feels like that, You know, gentleman buoy that, you know, I kind of wanted to make with this because it's very you know, the handle's very, you know, ornate.

Kevin Burgess [00:44:46]:
It has all the scrolls and the other thing. But the dagger's, you know, double edged mascus.

Bob DeMarco [00:44:53]:
Yeah. That's a that's a knife that you, fight over Over a card game on a riverboat.

Kevin Burgess [00:44:59]:
Yeah. You stow down in the middle real dramatically after you lose your hand.

Bob DeMarco [00:45:04]:
Yes, Yes. But you're dressed, like, really cool, and you have a couple of 6 sheeters on you. Yeah. That is a beauty. What what is the origin of that Style of blade though, it doesn't look like a regular Bowie as I knew it.

Kevin Burgess [00:45:16]:
That's kind of my interpretation of just a Shorter, almost kind of like, I like to, with a lot of my designs, I like to look at nature, Because that was one of the things whenever we were studying design in school, was hey, nature has a lot of these designs, has a lot of and and doing more research into that and learning about, you know, just kind of that nature makes things specifically for doing things very effectively. One of my favorite stories was, the Japanese trains, the bullet trains. Their lead designer was a avid bird watcher, and he noticed that the Kingfishers, you know, dive into the water and just went straight straight into the water. And so we shaped the front of their trains like a kingfisher, you know, The head. And it actually cut through the air and it stopped some of the problems they were having. I think they were like causing sonic booms as the trains would go by or, you know, suction or whatever. And it you know, fixed all that and that one's actually I kinda based it off of a rhino's horn, just this big piercing, Very very dramatic, you know, front edge, but I just wanted to have it be kinda this rhino horn, very stout blade, even though it's actually very thin.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:34]:
Yeah. That would be a a a really great fighting knife because any sort of thrust would make a a a fight Stopping wound, and, and you got it on both sides. I love that knife. I I, I I remember that one. And the handle is pretty memorable too. That silver inlay, the silver wire inlay?

Kevin Burgess [00:46:54]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:56]:
So is that a a skill, And is that one of many skills you're gonna need as you go for for this, mastersmith? I know I know that they have to do a Fluted spiral handled Yeah. Double bullion dagger. Yeah. Just insane.

Kevin Burgess [00:47:13]:
Yeah. So with the, so one so one of the big differences between journeyman and master for your tests, For your, bit and finish tests is Bob, obviously the master Smiths make their stuff out of Damascus. But 2, you actually do have a micro garment, whereas with With your journeyman, just meet a couple of, you know, length requirements, make these, good. With Master Smith, they actually tell you, you need to make a Napoleon, European Napoleon Dagger. Because Bill Moran, whenever he was, you know, kind of founding the ABS, he was like, you know, this is probably one of the hardest knives there is to make and make it good. Because you have, you know, it's a dagger working on basically 2 knives at once that need to be perfectly symmetrical, and then not to get into all the hand of this, On a Quillian dagger, but it is a very it can be a very taxing knife and you can do that, and probably do just about anything else well.

Bob DeMarco [00:48:06]:
And and you need braided wire. Mhmm. Yeah. Like, 3 bits of braided wire, right, going down fluid. I mean, it's amazing. Those are beautiful to look at.

Kevin Burgess [00:48:17]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:48:18]:
And, yeah, you can imagine a different era when where Attention to detail like that was the was the norm. That that puts you kind of in a very, very, very long line of, people, yeah, you know, in in the world who have made these, these kind of things. So, you teach people, you have classes. Tell me about that.

Kevin Burgess [00:48:42]:
Yeah. So, one of the things that, You know, it's kind of the big side of my business and the big side of kind of like my knife making journey, is teaching people. I absolutely love Teaching classes, not only for me on the business side is it a good deal for me because I get to make a knife, You know, as I'm showing these, you know, these people, you know, what to do whatever they want to make a knife. But, As we go along with it, you know, we you know just talk through everything. I get to pass on all that information. And, I wanna say it was Steve Schwarzer who said it. You know, for every person you teach, your lifespan doubles. And, you know, that that was kind of one of those really you know, I've been teaching for a while, but, I think that is what's actually Kind of pushed me over as far as, wow, I really enjoy enjoy teaching, and this is why.

Kevin Burgess [00:49:42]:
Because, I get to kinda make a, you know, a imprint on the and kind of, you know, show, you know, this craft that, you know, at a certain point was Pretty much forgotten, you know. I mean, luckily, you know, some people might have their own opinions, but I have my own, so I'm gonna Speaking on, you know, I think that, you know, for all of horse and fire and some people, you know, you have whatever their opinions are on it, I think it's overall a really good thing. I think bringing more people into this, making people more aware of the crafts is ultimately a good thing. I don't see A way in which that becomes a negative, you know. Because the more people that enjoy it, the better. I like having more people in the community. I don't want to have, you know, just the small little 5 dudes in a garage. I wanna have, you know, this kind of nationwide family that's They're all really valid on this one thing that we do.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:40]:
Some people get bitterly possessive of their interests. Like, Oh, I would rather, like, no one know about knives, and they die with me than than everyone yeah. It was like, I was way into knives before everyone else. Okay. Alright. But, Forged in Fire has been amazing because it has also helped normalize, I mean, not only for the art. It's been great for the showing off, how knives are made and, in in that more traditional way, but it's They've also helped to normalize knives in general. The fact that people carry them and use them every day and they're not, Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:19]:
They're not, you know, carrying them around as weapons.

Kevin Burgess [00:51:22]:
Yeah. They don't have to be these scary things that, you know, people Not the weirdos holding their pockets, you know, the 1 kid, you know, at the school line who's always showing off in his little pocket. You don't have to be, you know, bad. It can be these, you know, high class pieces, these, you know, kind of talking points, you know, all that kind of stuff. And, you know, yeah, I think that, you know, Forged in Fire has done a lot of good for the knife making community. It's about a lot like I said, it's about a lot of people. It's about a lot of awareness, and I like all of it.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:52]:
Yeah. And it it it's also very in it it's it goes very against, the sort of Temporary culture we live in or disposable culture because Yeah. Here here, you're making knives. You're seeing how they How they can be made individually and how how well they can perform, whereas a lot of people, you know, they'll buy, for instance, kitchen knives Or cheap pocket knives, and then when they when they get dull, they kinda just put them in the drawer or throw them away and get something new.

Kevin Burgess [00:52:24]:
Yeah. This one's for all the knife makers. Oh, I'm sorry. My my my son, he has a collection of knives. He has more knives than he has with a deal with, and you know every single one of them is $20 from DeMarco. Yeah, no. But, but yeah, there definitely is that kind of, just It's nice. It just really, it really is nice.

Kevin Burgess [00:52:46]:
I thoroughly enjoy what Forged in Fire has done for the community at large.

Bob DeMarco [00:52:52]:
So are you, as you make this transition into into a part time, knife maker, are you taking orders at all, or are you just continuing to make the knives you wanna make? Or or, I mean, have you begun Making the knives you wanna make, are you finishing up orders and stuff as you make that transition?

Kevin Burgess [00:53:12]:
Yeah, I am finishing up my last Three knives. These are the last probably custom orders I'll take for a very good long time. Unless the order is, hey, I want a Bowie, here's a budget. You know, I think Yeah. And like I said, I think that's kind of one of the things that I think I'm gonna enjoy about this is like I have the freedom to say, you know what? No, I don't really feel like making whatever kind of Weird knife. You know, I wanna make this. And I'm not really gonna be bothered if it doesn't sell because if it doesn't sell, I have another source of income coming in.

Bob DeMarco [00:53:51]:
So well then, what is it? What what is your dream knife? What do you wanna make?

Kevin Burgess [00:53:55]:
My dream knife is just a really nice big bowie, Silver, you know, gold accents, you know, just kind of that whole 9 yards of just that really classic front of blade magazine boom.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:09]:
Okay. Alright. Alright. So, I'm being selfish now, and I'm gonna say, okay. Besides a buoy, like,

Kevin Burgess [00:54:15]:
what what what are,

Bob DeMarco [00:54:17]:
Like, are you are you Tonto curious?

Kevin Burgess [00:54:19]:
Are you Okay. Okay. Oh, so so so for like a fun fun knife, yeah. Yeah. I would love to make, so, talked about D and D earlier. My baby is Is a half orc paladin named Borg. He is my 1st character. He is actually, I kind of transferred him over into another campaign that I'm in.

Kevin Burgess [00:54:42]:
And he is my baby. My he he is mine, and I love him so much even though he's ugly. But, One of his things is he's a, oath of the ancients, and so that's very plant based. And I want one day, and and his His main thing is he has a giant kind of like, it looks like the vines from, you know, like Spanish ivy, the handle. And it's just a giant, spiked maw, you know, on the earth, you know, that he just swings around. I would love to make that For no, you know, obviously, just just have fun, just to just, you know, make something just to make it. But that would be the ultimate of, you know what, I just want to.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:25]:
Yeah. Home defense. And, you know, I bet there, I bet there are plenty of people out there who who would who would like it. I mean, like you were talk we were talking, earlier about enthusiast groups. Dungeons and Dragons, that's a that's a huge enthusiast group, you know. I I can remember, like, I did not play it, but I remember my friend's older brother playing it all hours of the night, you know, when I was sleeping over. Yeah. I mean, I think there's and and then you look at the books.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:55]:
Lots of just cool, cool

Kevin Burgess [00:55:56]:
swords and knives Yeah. From those books.

Bob DeMarco [00:56:00]:
So, 1 last question here. Texas, how how has Texas, the, the state, influenced you, and and how do you think it's, gone into your knife making?

Kevin Burgess [00:56:12]:
I mean, it really just I mean, what what else can I say other than I like and enjoy my Oh, you guys are very singular minded in that, ain't you? But yeah, no, just the fact that I'm around a lot of very, very heavy hitters in the knife team, You know, when Ray, Fisk, Cook, there there I think Bump is near. Bruce Bump is near me, or no, he's up in Washington. But I know there's just a bunch. Or Harvey Dean, he's the other one in Texas. Harvey Dean's the other one. You know, it's just some really big names for like the now and more modern, you know, knife makers. And the fact that I'm so near them and their work just, you know, by proxy kind of makes me wanna do things. They're kind of, you know, the big reason why I kinda turned out how I do, how I did with, you know, just enjoying the Forged blade, enjoying brewing knives, enjoying teaching.

Kevin Burgess [00:57:15]:
You know, with the Texarkana School being so close to me and kinda and, you know, thinking about teaching and stuff like that, That has had a huge influence on me as a maker.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:24]:
Well, when I was down there and when I met you, I I felt like the whole place was bent towards, kinda cool. Cool. I I mean, we were we were 30 miles from a place called Cut and Shoot. That's what I mean.

Kevin Burgess [00:57:38]:
I was like,

Bob DeMarco [00:57:38]:
I like Texas.

Kevin Burgess [00:57:40]:
This is my life. It's great, ain't it? Gun barrel city.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:44]:
It's just gun barrel city. It just feels like it's in the air, independence and And knife. Kevin Burgess of Burgess Forage, thank you so much for coming on the Knife Talking podcast. It's been a real pleasure continue our, continuing our conversation, And I look forward to more.

Kevin Burgess [00:58:01]:
So do I, man. Let's go.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:04]:
Alright. Thank you, sir.

Kevin Burgess [00:58:05]:
Have a good one. Need a new knife? Find our affiliate links at the knife junkie.com/knives.

Announcer [00:58:13]:
If you search Google for the best knife podcast, The answer is the knife junkie podcast.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:21]:
There he goes, ladies and gentlemen. Kevin Burgess of Burgess forge. Check out his work on Instagram. That's burgess_forge and then also, on burgessforge .com. Beautiful, beautiful bowies. I know we have a lot of, fans of that style of knife, on this show. You gotta check out his work. And, if you're a collector or a high class user, definitely go check that out.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:46]:
And, also, definitely Check out the Wednesday supplemental and Thursday night knives coming up this week. For Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DeMarco saying until next time. Don't take dull for an answer.

Announcer [00:58:59]:
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