Automated Transcript
Master Bladesmith Daniel Winkler, Owner/Partner Winkler Knives
The Knife Junkie Podcast (Episode 356)

00:05
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast.
Your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting.
Here's your host, Bob the knife junkie DeMarco.
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast.
I'm your host, Bob DeMarco.
On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with Master Bladesmith and proprietor of Winkler Knives, Daniel Winkler.
Daniel started as a hobbyist, making blades to support other pursuits.

00:36
But demand for his historically inspired knives and Tomahawks grew well beyond his circle, gaining the attention of Hollywood producers and military elite alike.
Now, Winkler knives are some of the most.
Unique, respected and sought after hard use fixed blades on the market.
As a matter of fact, you'll find crossed Winkler Tomahawks at the center of a popular logo.
That I'm seeing more and more everywhere warms the cockles of my heart.
We're going to meet Daniel and talk all about his life in knives, but first be sure to like comment, subscribe, hit the notification Bell and download the show to your favorite podcast app so you can listen on the go.
And as always, join us on Patreon.

01:13
If you think what we do here is worth it, you can get extra.
Extra exclusive interviews.
You can get all sorts of extra content, knife giveaways, etcetera, etcetera.
So just go to the knife junkie.com/patreon and check it out again.
That's the knife junkie.com/patreon.
The Get Upside app is your way to get cash back on your gas purchases.
Get upside is an app you put on your smartphone and whenever you need to get gas, search your area for savings, claim your discount, fill up your tank, and then take a picture of the receipt with your phone and that's it.

01:47
You've just.
Had cash back?
Visit the knife junkie.com/save on gas to get the app and start saving again.
That's the knife junkie.com/save on gas.
Daniel, welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, Sir.
Thank you.
It's a pleasure to be here.

02:05
It's great to have you here.
And I, I want to congratulate you on seeing that logo everywhere.
You know what I'm talking about.
The crossed tomahawk that are being used in the terminal list.
So that's that's been a real.
Popular show and it certainly has engaged people in looking at Winkler knives and then the orders have been tremendous, especially for that particular model to the point to where right now I think we're probably backlogged on delivery on that particular model about 10 months.
So it's it, it's worth the wait because it's special but and it's it's been, it's been great to be associated.

02:50
Able to have to be 10 months backlogged for Tomahawks that that Tomahawk in particular, is that the one that was the collaboration with the Sioc Cali guys?
Yeah, yeah.
And that back back very early in in our manufacturing when we set up Winkler knives.
At that time is Winkler knives too.
I worked with Raphael Kiana and the Chief Tomahawk instructor for Sayak in developing that particular model, both with and without the front spike.
The time he was working with some naval Special warfare members that were training in there, they say.
Style of of using that and it's got a lot of pretty unique, neat features.

03:37
Yeah, that that spike is definitely something else.
It has actually evocative of some of the older Filipino head hunting axes and that kind of thing.
Kind of reminds me of that.
But yeah, that that.
It's a very unique design, and you can recognize it right away.
I love that thing, and one day I will own one.
I want to talk all about that stuff, but first I want to get a little background on you.

04:04
I was.
I was reading your website and discovered that you come out of a reenactment background, a love for historical US knives.
How did that happen?
Well, back back when I was in high school in the mid 1970s, I I'd always spent a lot of time outdoors with my dad, hunting and fishing, and I started gaining a interest in black powder shooting.
And so at that time, being a high school student, I didn't have any any money to buy equipment with or or.
You know, knives and guns and all that.
So I started making things in shop class, in in school, in industrial arts and back in back in that time I made knives in high school, a shot projects, made knives and powder horns and shooting bags and and and it just kind of built from there.

05:05
And as I realized there were other people that had the same interest, I would start going to these black powder shooting matches.
And being no was starting to learn a little bit about knife making.
I would make you know, we'd have things called blanket shoots where each contestant would lay a prize on a blanket and then whoever won the match got to pick first.
And then if you came in last, you got the can of green beans or, you know, whatever was the the least desirable of the prizes.
And so I thought, well, I made a little patch knife on a few of them for the prize on the blanket.
To.
And then other people started noticing them that didn't win and get the prize that was picked up early and said, well, how about you making me one of those, I'll pay you for it.

05:53
And so that kind of was the start of my knife making career and it actually started very early in the in the mid to late 1970s and then on on from there.
Did you have someone at that time in those very early days?
To mentor you, to tell you how to heat treat, to tell you some of these mysteries.
Well my my teacher and and the industrial arts class who was also a good friend and became a hunting buddy.
He had some knowledge and he also had knowledge of how to research and find out things like key trading.
And so it was a lot of trial and error in the beginning.
And one side note this this teacher who who I had, his name is Michael McGuire.

06:40
Uh.
A few months ago I actually hired his son to work for Winkler knives.
So when he's doing very good.
Jake is A is a great employee, but that's just a little side note.
But so a lot of trial and error on those in those early, early projects.
And then as I got more into it, I would talk to blacksmiths at at.
We live in an area in western North Carolina with a lot of craft shows and and and handcrafted items because we have.

07:11
A lot of tourist space and so I talked to blacksmiths and blacksmiths normally have a little bit of knowledge on making knives because they dabble in a lot of different areas and so.
As I went along, I learned more and more about how what steals to use and how to properly heat treat and or at least get a start in it and it it continued to build and grow.
So then as time went on and in 1988, I actually made the move into becoming a full-time knife maker, and I really haven't done anything else since.
Living the dream so.
Tell me about your love for early American knives and how you would define an early American knife.
By looks, I mean, I always of course, think of the Bowie knife this the Western 49 kind of a typical Bowie, but it's, you know, just looking at the knives you made for last of the Mohicans, for instance.
It's a it's very different from what we from what I think of.

08:18
Define what a US knife from that period of time was.
The frontier period.
And what about it really drew you to that style.
well-being I was involved in the black powder and just are not really industry but the the, the lifestyle and and my spare time was spent you know, going to shooting matches and then eventually rendezvous.
I liked American history and so I would, I would study the equipment, going to libraries.
The museums to see what they might have had in the time period that I was trying to recreate so.
Early on and even still yet in a lot of cases the the knives and Tomahawks and axes that I make have an early American design flair.

09:06
And there were, there were quite a few pieces in the colonies where local blacksmiths would make knives and axes and hatchets.
So there's existing specimens of those that I could look at.
And then there was a tremendous trade with the Native Americans.
So there's a lot of European made trade knives and Tomahawks.
And so all of those were helpful in developing a design player that I that that we just expanded on and and continue building it.
Yeah the Umm OK so alright I as we were speaking earlier before we we mentioned the terminal list, you are incredibly popular.
Your knives your work is incredibly popular with special operations operators and when I learned that I was always aware of your belt knife before I knew about your your broader catalog of work.

10:03
I always knew about the belt knife and and how well respected it was amongst people like myself, collectors and.
But then, when I learned how popular your work is with, UM, special operations individuals, operators and such, it's surprised me in such a pleasant way, because these are people who get the highest tech equipment to do their very important job.
You know and and then you look at your knives and they have this this flavor from the past and and and incorporating wood and and natural materials as opposed to the the latest synthetics which I would expect on on a really advanced commando unit.
So how do you, how do you account for your immense popularity amongst those individuals?
It is still came about because of my my work and development of the early American style knives and Tomahawks.
The the first interaction I had with the military special operations was just after the movie last of the Mohicans came out, and we'll touch on that a little bit more I'm sure, but I did.
I did some work with the principal characters.

11:23
And there was a member of Naval Special warfare who who had been assigned the task of finding a combination breaching combat.
Hatchet because they were not satisfied with the things that were on the market, and they weren't really suited for what they wanted to do.
And we had built a pretty good reputation.
I say we because by that time my wife Karen was part of Winkler knives and doing the sheets and and a lot of the business side of it.
So we.
We had developed a good reputation both for design functionality and and the ability to create carry systems that that were were suitable and and worked with a variety of different carry methods.
And so from that last Mohicans is this naval special warfare operator.

12:24
Notice the tomahawk that the character Mogwa carried.
Little research found out that I made it.
And not contacted me and so we work together and and he came to my shop and we hand forged a tomahawk and our.
Termination breaching Combat Acts, which was was pretty much an adaptation of a camp accent I was already making with the black powder trade and we'd have to put a spike on it and and it's a full Tang design, so it's very strong, very durable.
And I made this, this hatchet for him in which he took back to his team and and they all liked it, but at that time there's no funding for that kind of product and so only made the one.
And he carried it with him during all of his deployments during the First Gulf War.
And then it kind of dropped out of sight.

13:21
And I didn't think much about it until after 911, when this operator had retired from the Navy and it, because of his skill level, had gone back into the military, into Army special operations, still had this hatchet that had made for him many years before.
And his team members liked it and thought they needed one too.
And so.
Actually ended up hand forging.
I think it was either 17 or 18 for his particular.
Team within his squadron and.
And then it's kind of grew from there and they cross trained and deployed with some of the naval special warfare from his former unit and they wanted more of them too and bound funding for it.

14:17
And it got to the point where it was way more numbers than I could do is hand forged operation with just me and Karen.
And so that was actually the start of at that time Winkler knives too and the two meaning also because we are still doing hand forge pieces.
We get more people confused on what we're hand for that I actually did 100% of the work on and Karen did the 100% of the work on the carriers to Winkler knives two which we hired a couple of part time employees to help with that production because it's more repetitious and we injected water jet
cutting contractors and.
And and started building a production business so, so that's kind of where the military.
Interaction started based on my work with last of the Mohicans and then the reputation that we had built in the custom knife industry doing these early American style pieces.
Early on, and I'm not sure if you're Privy to this, but early on when you are making these breaching slash combat hatchets for this unit, do you know if there is any difficulty in getting the military to adopt?

15:31
To to adopt the Tomahawk or the hatchet as a useful tool in the on the modern battlefield.
Well, yes and no.
You know the the general consensus from the public and the main military at that time were was that it that the hatchet was not really a a a tool that that they would carry and you know it was all about it's all like guns and and guided missiles and you know any other ordinance that that was being
deployed but in actuality.
There was a lot more.
Up close combat then most of the general public has would could possibly realize and because of that a close quarter weapon.
Became very.

16:30
I won't say popular, but it was very useful with these teams that would have to clear buildings and clear rooms and and do up close and personal engagements because it gave them alternatives to firearms.
Because in in some of the the conflicts there would be a lot of innocence that would be close by.
And they of course were very conscious of not not.
Injuring people that that didn't, you know, weren't part of the conflict and so having a hatchet and in combat became very.
Useful in being selective.
But then also it became a a very useful tool for for breaching and and some types of.
Operations where they might have to to cut a a. A recess into a a shelter or something, or a Hut or a building to to to see through or whatever.

17:39
So they're they're actually some some.
Special training for the use of these hatches, but it wasn't across the board with all the military.
It was pretty well limited to some of the highly skilled operators that.
That actually could.
Get in close and still you know they they didn't have to 100% rely on a firearm for their their combat situation.
So even today there's a there's a lot of attitude about you know nobody's going to carry a tomahawk develop space on their kit for something like that that they probably would never use because they don't need it for camp chores and that sort of thing.
And and that's true for a lot of a lot of people that are in that business but for the ones that are assigned to.

18:32
Certain operations they do come in very handy and they're still carried today by a. Pretty large number of of special operations and even even those that that are a little further down the food chain so to speak.
Well, speaking as a. Non special operator.
I would imagine having one on you would be incredibly reassuring.
You know, a nice little, uh, security blanket.
I've heard many, many stories of of our our soldiers and Marines who are clearing rooms and someone jumps on their back and it's no longer a gunfight.
And I could see how those kind of that kind of weaponry edged weapons and Tomahawks and things that people have been relying on since the beginning of time.
Would still be reassuring to have even with all the high tech stuff when you're designing a tomahawk, it seems like.

19:30
It seems like there are two considerations.
If it's breaching, you'd want that full Tang.
You want it, uh, super durable.
And for lack of a better term, heavy duty.
And heavy is a part of that.
But for combat and for, you know, a fighting Tomahawk, you want something light that moves around and and can recover quickly after a swing.
So when you're designing a tomahawk to kind of straddle that line, what kind of how do you, what kind of considerations go into building it?

20:00
Well, Tomahawks and knives both are all about.
Geometry, physics and chemistry, it's, you know, it's not magic, it's it's it's science.
And so in developing for example a tomahawk that's are hatchet, that's going to go into the field to be used as both perhaps a combat weapon and a breaching tool.
1st it's got to be strong and it's got to be durable and you gotta use the right materials.
So so you know the material considerations are more chemistry.
You got to get the right steel blend to where you get good performance and and good edge holding, good shock resistance but still yet in a way that you can sharpen it and maintain it in the field the the physics part of it goes into creating a balance.
So with with all of our hatchets, a full size hatchets we.

20:57
We have a full taper from the head down through the bottom of the handle to help with the balance, and then also skeletonization inside under the handle.
And what that does is that actually gives you more better weight distribution where there's more weight in the head and less weight in the handle.
Just like her traditional hatchet with a wooden handle that has the eye through the the steel head, it gives you a proper weight.
Ballots.
So the tapering the skeletonization actually not only does it make it lighter to carry, but even more importantly it balances to where the weight is in the head.
So when you do have a a swing you have more velocity and therefore more power in the strike.
So the weight balance becomes another critical aspect of the Tomahawk design.

21:53
Now the.
The primary use for for all of these are with a blade forward to chop.
That's what axes and Tomahawks and hatchets are made for, and so.
When we start coming up with a design that's primarily combat, then most likely it's going to have spike on the back so you have an alternative.
Source to that weapon that you can use with the spike forward or in some cases it we may put a hammer pole on it which adds to its functionality as a as a woodcraft tool.
It camp chore and perhaps in some cases for breaching.
You know I know a lot of people that use the the spike on the back end for Rd checks when they might have to flatten the tire to keep somebody from running away or or break a window to to get through a glass.

22:47
Not that it's a checkpoint.
So there's a lot of aspects that go into the design that may make it secondary purpose more functional so that that has more to do with it than the primary purpose of a chopping tool.
But still yet getting the weight distribution correct is the primary.
Direction that we look at when we were doing the designs and then the handle length again.
We try to balance it for the majority of people using it so they don't feel the need to choke up on the handle because of course you get more velocity the longer your handle is if it's comfortable.
And I know a lot of people have used hatchets and and end up.
Choking up on the handle because it just has a better feel, a better balance for their particular size.

23:40
So we take all that into consideration too, and then handle shapes.
Come into play again depending on the usage of more or less the secondary purpose and the primary purpose.
So for example, the R&D style that we touched on before that handle design does not lend itself well to a spike forward strike.
It's not made for that.
The they actually spike on the R&D hawk is not so much a striking tool as it is a control then the Sayoc method.
And style of Tomahawk and hatch it fighting that is used as a hook to maneuver your opponent into position to take advantage.
So it's not really designed as a spike forward striking implement.

24:30
And that is the the one hatchet in our product line.
That is pretty much strictly combat.
It doesn't lend itself well to woodcraft and doesn't.
I mean it's better than I haven't won at all for sure, but it's a primary combat.
Style and it and it's designed just specifically for that.
On that half on the UM, R&D, the SIAC it right up underneath the head.
It looks like a pistol grip of sort of canted out a little bit before the the handle straightens out and it's a, it's a perfect landing spot for your hand right underneath the the head.

25:09
But what does that for?
Is that just the same sort of thing?
I mean that if that's a fully combat, if that is a combat weapon, I'm wondering what that what the benefit of being way up under the.
Uh, the head is maybe your?
Well, that's good observation and you're exactly right.
So when we were designing that, Raphael and me.
We we try to utilize a feel and a shape that would be very comfortable and very familiar with the operators.

25:40
So it does have a handgun sort of shape and feel to it.
And again the reason for that is because as a combat weapon there are also times you don't have time, you don't have space for a full time Hawk hatchet swing and it's an up close holding your hand very close quarters weapon and that is why it has that secondary hand positioning.
Up under the head for close quarter work.
It's ferocious.
It's just a terrifying looking weapon.
And seeing it, seeing it all over the terminal list.
I I was reading the terminal list a year ago, 2021 at Blade Show.

26:20
I was trying to find you a blade show to tell you how much.
I've been appreciating your knives through reading about them, but yeah, I saw Chris Pratt using that hatchet and using that part of that, holding it right under the half like that or right under the head like that in a very gruesome scene, which I'm glad they put in the movie because it was in the
book slightly differently.
But anyway, so terminal list, last of the Mohicans and and zero, Dark 30, and I think several other Suicide Squad.
You've made movies for knives.
What's it like going from making movies for these very serious individuals whose lives rely on it, IE military folk and other people who buy your knives, and then making it for Hollywood producers for whom they just have to look a certain way?
What's that like?

27:08
Well, you know, it all actually comes back to the functionality of it.
The first move we worked on was last the Mohicans.
And how we got into that is at that time Karen and I were making the historically correct and influence designs and we were traveling to rendezvous and custom shows to to sell these items.
And so we actually, we heard about this production last Mohicans and it was based out of Asheville, NC.
We had a craft show at the Biltmore Estate in Asheville, and so while we were in town, we contacted the production offices and said, hey, don't know if you're interested, but we make knives and hatchets from the time period of the movie you're filming.
Would you have any interest in taking a look at them?
And they immediately put me in touch with prop master Ron Downing.

28:03
And his initial reaction was, Gee, can you be here this evening?
I have a meeting with director Michael Mann to show him the new items that have been able to have fine since our last meeting.
Can you bring them in and let us review what you've got?
So we went to the meeting and and they really were happy with what we had.
And and so they started between Michael and and Ron.
They would give us what they wanted to see for the next week's.
Production meeting.

28:34
And so for about 6 weeks, we would go home after the meeting, make what they had requested and go back to the production meeting the next week to show them what we had.
And so all these, these knives and hatchets and Tomahawks really that we made during that period were early American style.
They were also developed for.
A combat of that time and so we just accurately reproduced the the designs that they wanted like the knife and made for Daniel Day Lewis was taken from a photograph of a blade that was I believe displayed in museum at Fort Niagara.
The tomahawk from Managua I think was it came from another Fort up in Ohio.
I believe they actually sent me the original from the museum to copy and.
So it was only 18 inch handle length and they wanted something larger for screen presence.

29:36
So we did a reproduction of the Tomahawk exactly like the original except enlarged.
And so we worked with them for for about 6 weeks before filming started.
And then at that time they selected what they wanted for the different characters and and and we went from there and fortunately we were able and invited to come on location for some of the filming, which was very interesting the different world from what I'd ever seen.
Before, but it it reinforced the the details that certain directors go to to to create a realistic portrayal of what they're doing, and also was a good insight into why it cost so much to make a move.
Because there's a you might see one person out in the wilderness walking through the woods, but there's 200 others right behind him behind this cameras with a trays of Donuts and coffee and and costumes.
Cameras and and light screens and just.
It was just a fascinating thing to be part of.

30:37
It must have been amazing for as a lifelong lover of weapons and tools from that particular period, to get an actual example in your hands from which to to make the prop.
That's that must have been pretty amazing.
It was great.
It was very, it was very inspiring to see that and and and to hold that and and they were very protective.
I would get a phone call every day to ask how it was.
I hadn't heard it or anything.
I said no, I'm just looking at it and measuring.

31:07
I'm not not doing anything to change it so that that was kind of neat.
And then like you said, we were talking about movies, the other movies like Zero Dark 30, it was a, it was a. Authentic.
To a director that wanted the correct.
Equipment to accurately portray that story.
Zero.
Dark 30, that's the balance.
Suicide Squad, actually, that one was was more of a fantasy kind of film, but the reason we got involved with that is there they're consultants for the military element in that film were people that I'd worked with when they were still active duty and they like their stuff and so we've worked with

31:55
them on that and terminal list.
Came into play because the author, Jack Carr, I had met and worked with him also while he was still active and so when he was writing his books and using some of his personal experiences in his stories, it just came into play because that was part of his life.
OK, I have a working theory actually in Daniel about about why besides the fact that they're incredibly awesome.
I I had, I had the the striker on loan from one of my viewers.
It was so cool to have.
What a beautiful knife that.
But anyway I have a working theory as to why commandos and and modern day you know elite warriors love your stuff.

32:41
Not only is it what we'll set aside, the fact that it's incredibly useful and utilitarian.
And incredible tools, but also it does harken back to an earlier time in our country.
And I think a lot of men and women who put themselves, you know, voluntarily put themselves in harm's way and join these kind of outfits are patriotic by nature.
And they also have a love of history and I think to connect yourself with.
Some of the earlier Patriots in our American history through the kind of kit you're carrying.
I don't know.
It could be, it could.

33:17
It could make you, uh, I don't know, emboldened on the battlefield or or something.
I don't know.
Like I said, it's a working theory, but I I love this idea of of high speed, low drag commandos running around with your amazing walnut handled knives and Tomahawks.
One of a couple of things you sparked some some thoughts for me there.
You know, we do a lot of wooden handles and most manufacturers don't.
You wouldn't handles, but our manufacturer is very different than than most everybody else's manufacturing also.
But we can get into that later if you like.

33:53
But you know one of the reasons that the wood is so popular and that started right from the beginning working with the military operators as is, it's it's natural and it's got a warmth, you know, the the.
Synthetic materials are great.
They're very tough.
We use a lot of it and in certain situations that is by far the best way to go with a synthetic laminate.
Rubber also is one of the the handle materials we use on select products because of grip and and the needs in certain situations.
But the wood is by far the most popular because it does have that natural warm feel and it was told to me by one operator at one time that sometimes that reminder of home and normal and natural.
There's a difference in sanity and insanity that they they have to do.

34:44
They have to live in a very insane world sometimes, and just a little bit of that that reminds you of, you know, home the.
The wood on your firearm, you know when you go deer hunting or the the mantle place over your fireplace, you know, might just be enough of a reminder to to keep things kind of in check so.
You know so that's that's probably another another thing you're touching on and why a lot of operators are believe use our equipment is because of the detail we go to to make them functional and accessible on the kit.
And and and is as easy to access and use as possible.
I was I was teaching a course at one of the military bases on knife maintenance and sharpening.
And so before going to this I gave word to the guy that was putting it on to to tell the guys to bring in their knives that they that they want to use and we would sharpen them and.
And so a guy brought in a knife and I won't go into the details of what it was, but it was one of the more.

35:56
Modern designs, for lack of a better word, that was designed to do everything.
You could chop, you could slice, you could saw, you know it had something for every task that you wanted.
And so this, this operator showed it to me and said, what do you think of this knife?
I said, well, do you like it?
He said I love it.
Said I waited a long time to get it.
I said, well, good night, that's great.

36:18
I'm glad you like said no, but I want to know what you think about it, he said.
Uh, if you like it, that's the most important thing said.
No, really, what do you think?
Said, all right, I'm gonna be straight up with you.
And so over a period of about 7:00 or 8 minutes, I pointed out all the details on this particular knife, from from weight and balance to to unusable features of why I I I would never make a knife like that, but if he liked it, that was great.
I said can he carry?
He says yes.

36:48
It's really heavy.
And you got to go through three snaps to get it open, get it out.
So.
So yeah, I'd like to carry it, but I'm not sure I can see, you know, the the worst piece of gear you have in your equipment is the one that stays on the shelf and you go out in the field.
And so he took his knife and he held it up, and he walked over and he dropped it in the trash can.
And I said, no, don't do that.
He said no, and I can't.

37:14
And so it was, it was he was at that time, he was.
He will.
He was enthusiastic because here's a knife that should be able to do everything and he only had to carry that one piece of equipment.
But you know, when you make a piece of equipment or tool that does too many things, it probably doesn't do any one thing very well.
And so we utilize the early American and Native American.
Design influences because they're very simple.
It's a knife designed to cut or or stab or maybe cut and stab.

37:54
You had to, if necessary, chop or baton through wood or whatever.
And so it's very simple and it's been around for thousands of years and it's really hard to do something.
Knew that actually improves it.
Unless you come up with some better material, it's pretty hard to do and and my design influences come from a lifetime of looking at knives and hatchets and firearms and fishing rods and you know everything related to the outdoors and and sustaining and and so that's that's where where our influence
comes from and it's no different now than it was 300 years ago as far as the the basic need.
Of outdoor survival in a hostile situation.
Uh, you mentioned manufacturing earlier, Europe in Europe not up.

38:44
You're down in North Carolina.
I'm in Virginia and I know that that's where you make your work.
And I've also noticed that you do some very exclusive OEM work dynamics.
James Williams, big one that that popped up.
I recently was speaking with him.
You make an incredible knife for him.
Tell me a little bit about your manufacturing, uh capabilities and and it seems you've got the bandwidth to make knives for other designers.

39:17
Tell us a little bit about that.
Yeah.
We we have in the past and will continue in the future to do what we call custom manufacturing.
We're very selective about about what we make and the designs we do and we're not going to we're not going to just take any any business in that regard.
It has to be in line and flow well with with.
Our attitude about knife design and functionality and and material usage and and all that.
So, so working with with Dom Rosso with dynamics he, he's one of the early ones and again another one of those relationships that developed when he was an active duty and then as he started his own business it was a natural fit for us to work with him.

40:00
We've we've got product remain in line right now.
So so we do some custom manufacturing we we have had to slow down in the past couple of years just because.
Our business has grown so, so much and so fast.
We're like say we have, we have a general order backlog of about three to four months right now.
And then on the R&D front spike Hawks.
Thank you, Jack Carr.
That's about 10 months or more and so it just we have a lot to do and we're trying to spread it out.

40:35
We don't want to not do these special custom manufacturing projects.
So this will continue doing it and I'd like to do more as as time goes along because it's nice to be involved and have a a connection with other reputable related companies like Dynamics and James Williams and.
They're working on a project coming up for a couple of the gun manufacturers where they'll be accessories that go with certain guns or as a as a alternate product.
And so so we'll we'll continue working on that as we can and it's it's always good.
But one of the rules that that we have as far as doing these, these custom manufacturing projects it's it's got to be a design and made in a way that if if.
That we would sell it through our own product line and we're not going to do anything too far outside of that realm and people are very receptive to that because we have been fortunate enough to to develop a really good reputation in this industry and we have a good following and of professionals
that actually use our equipment and and that's very satisfying and so we're we take that all very seriously.

41:53
When, uh, so when we started this question, also talking about how the knives and the Tomahawks are actually built.
A walk us through a little bit what your manufacturing process and facility are like.
Well, it's grown over the years right now.
I think we're in a facility about.
Have to add it up or probably at around 30,000 square feet about 25 employees each one of them and that's including office staff and and and shipping and all we, we we.
Don't have anybody here other than myself that makes a knife from start finish.
Everybody else has a specialty in area and what we've done is we we have taken the methods and procedures that I developed as a custom maker.

42:48
And enhance them to where without losing any any performance or quality, we actually make them more efficient operations such as steel.
We are very selective on the steel type that we use and I test a lot of steels to make sure we have high performance with whatever you're using.
But instead of in the old days when I would take a bar of steel and hand forge it to a shape and then take a bandsaw and a grinder and take it to the final shape and the.
Profile.
Now we have a water jet and so we take sheets of steel.
We water jet cut the blanks.
It makes them very consistent and very accurate.

43:26
It does not.
It's no not detrimental in any way to the performance of the steel cutting with water jet doesn't change steel properties because there's no heat generated.
And it's computer control operation.
And now we've eliminated for that procedure the hot fire and the hammer, which is.
Potentially dangerous with eliminated the bandsaw work for cutting out the blanks, which I'd say at least three out of the seven times I've had stitches have been cause of Evansville.
So we've eliminated that needed safety.
We take safety very seriously so we have a water jet and then we also have machines that do preliminary grinds to remove the bulk of the of the material, but then every single piece that we make also is hand ground by.

44:16
And operator that I personally have worked with training to get them to know how to get these knives and hatchets to the final dimension.
So, so that's there's still a lot of handwork involved in it and and then from there it goes to.
Heat treating and I set up our heat trading to using the same methods that I did as a custom maker that created the very high performance tools using a a salt pot system.
So it's not the fastest way to do it and it's not the safest way to do it, but it does give you the best performance, especially with the type steels that we're using.
It's not for all steels, but for for the steel that we use is very well suited to it for a high.
Performance process so.
You know, another thing that that we do different than other manufacturers, which is more in line with what I did as a custom maker is I we completely grind the blades to shape before heat treating and then heat treat and then fortunately sometimes we get warpage.

45:22
So we probably have a loss factor on warpage of about anywhere from 5 to 10% depending on the particular model and the steel.
It's time where other manufacturers generally will.
Heat treat the blank and then do the grinding processes by machine under a water flow to keep the steel cool to preserve the hardness levels, which does work in a lot of cases, especially on the thinner steels, but when you get to a steel of the thickness like like for our belt knife for example.
Which is approximately 3 sixteenths of an inch thick.
And so I did some some testing with layering some steel and taking it apart and doing hardness and performance test on the outer layers of the inner layers.
And you can have a two to three-point difference in hardness level just because when you cool it for the hardening process you cooling the outside insulates inside which becomes your cutting edge eventually from the cooling process and you have.
Best performance in that part of the steel.

46:28
So so we do all of our shaping before heat treating to give our customers, our users a longer usable lifespan on their knives.
And again, it enhances the performance level.
When you say shaping, are you talking about the main bevels?
Are you talking about the profile or all of the profiles?
Pretty much everybody does profiles with either a laser, a stamping machine or a water jet.
That's pretty standard custom makers since they don't normally have.
Water jet to use or laser that can cut that thick of steel.

47:02
They they handshake it with a bandsaw and a grinder.
So yeah, every manufacturer I know of has.
The profiles done from some computer controlled machine or stamping machine.
So yeah from that standpoint and and again most most manufacturers that I'm aware of do the heat treating after that blank is is formed and then they go in for grinding hardened steel and these machines even the machines I have are capable of grinding hardened steel.
It's just we don't do it that way because our #1. Focus is performance.
And so we try to do things that have the best performance that we can possibly get.
And I found for our processes, that's the way that we do it.

47:46
And you're willing to sacrifice 5 to 10% of what you're making to make sure that that performance is there.
And I think the people that end user really appreciates that because oftentimes their lives depend on it.
And that's one thing that we realized from the beginning that there are people out there who will actually put their life on the line based on the performance of their equipment.
And like I said initially when we started working with the military, my intention was to do design and development, contract out the manufacturing.
Somebody set up for it because a two person operation meeting Karen could not produce those kind of numbers.
And we're not talking big numbers, we're talking small numbers in the terms of what most knife companies make, but still too much to people.
But we also realized when we were looking into this and looking at contractors to do other operations that they had their methods that didn't really mesh with what I knew I wanted done to assure the performance of these guys that literally might rely on that with their life aren't don't have a

48:51
failure.
And so we decided at that time if we're going to get into this side of the business then we're going to do it right and we're not going to do it at all and it's it's paid off very well.
We've we've been very successful as a business we're very successful with our with our views on this because although for from 1988 to about 2004 2005 all caring I did were one-of-a-kind pieces that nine out of 10 went into collections and never cut anything and and I appreciate that it helped me
make a living and and raise kids and and send them to school and.
And start this other business, but there is also a very deep satisfaction and now making knives that nine out of 10 golden field in are working knives where there's few that are going to collections and that's fine.
But I know they're going to be for the most part out there in the field working, which is a very satisfying thought.
What kind of feedback?

49:56
I mean I'm sure it's been years and years and and millions of emails, but what kind of feedback do you get from people in the.
Build with your work we we we get a lot of feedback about performance and how they love the feel of it that it's a comfortable knife to use it's one that when you hold it it they they just makes you want to get out and use it and that's that's very satisfying we get some more detailed feedback from
actual you know uses like I had one gentleman that worked within the military and he was in a somewhat covert operation and they had to stop a communications.
Network and he to do so he took his belt knife and jammed it into electrical circuit to sort it out.
Of course he lost his knife doing that and but he wrote us details about he did this and how it completed the mission successfully.
So of course we sent him a new one but you know and and again other details and some that that we can share openly and some that we don't talk about just because we're very.
I won't say protective, but respectful of the personal security of some of the people actually use our equipment.

51:09
So, so we don't get into any details about who our customers are and but in general you know they're the guys that.
Do the.
Higher skill level jobs in a lot of cases and then we also as we go along we have more and more people that that are in the the the more regular military that have found a use for our equipment.
When they're allowed to carry their own equipment they they do and sometimes they they buy it themselves and sometimes they you know they we we've worked on government contracts, we've worked on you know Squadron purchases with their discretionary funds and it goes a lot of different.
Actions.
Uh, excuse me.
I really like the story about the guy that you just told using his knife to short out a certain.

52:03
That's not the kind of thing you expect to hear, you expect to hear.
I used the axe to breach a door and it saved the day.
Or maybe use the knife to protect yourself in a in a close, close encounter, but I love that he used it, jammed it in, it worked.
It did its job.
You have a couple of other tools that are pretty cool that I've had a chance to check out one of them.
Is a spike.
The other one is like a tactical screwdriver.

52:30
The the viewer who loaned me the the the combat striker, the striker with the with the stuff in the hidden handle.
He also loaned me that screwdriver and the spike and all those other tools.
Very cool, very useful doubling as weapons.
Tell me a little bit about what inspired.
The creation of these kind of knife things, well, originally that that we call it a pick that was inspired from two different directions.
1 at the time I was kind of interested and I watched that that TV series Walking Dead and so and then another issue I had at work was when we were cutting water jet cutting out these axes, there was a lot of steel that wasn't big enough to cut the axe and there's a lot of.
I considered waste and I didn't want to.

53:23
I wanted to find a use for that waste.
I said, OK, we'll make a Walker spike that people might like that and utilize this waste of material.
We decided that Walker Spike might be copyrighted, so we just called it wasn't so so that it it came from a A A thought process of trying to utilize some waste of materials.
But it became very popular and then we did the screwdriver and then did a a tactical Flathead, which is the same basic thing for dynamics.
Which was was great and they became very popular and it came so popular in fact that that we no longer could cut enough of them out of the waste material.
We had to set up cupful sheets and and so it changed the the the cost of the product and but more than that as as time went and we got more and more behind on orders for knives and hatchets and again a lot of this is going to professionals.
That's where the the picks we had to make a difficult choice of to grind a a pick took the same amount of time as it did to grind a belt knife.

54:38
And it it didn't make sense because it wasn't as critical piece of equipment and so we had to make the choice and we discontinued those the picks and the and the screwdriver pick.
But good news is we're going to bring them out again but with a little slightly different design and we're going to assign specific time for them and and and manufacturing and and in a way that's a little more efficient and so we can bring that.
Of 2023 keep your eyes open for new version Gen 2 of both those products and we we want to change the design not only for manufacturing efficiency but also when we discontinued the the pick and screwdriver pick then they became very sought after on the secondary market and right now this pick that
we sold a thing for about $85 are regularly selling on the secondary market for anywhere from 250 to 500. Dollars and for collectors and collectors job, that kind of market.
But you know, I I would never, I would never make a product like that and sell it for that amount because I could.
Because it's not my philosophy, it's not our philosophy on how to do business but but I'm not knocking anybody that's doing that.
That's once they get into the customers hands they're free to do whatever they want to.

56:04
So but we are planning to bring it back and as well as hopefully in the future we're going to start doing some kitchen cutlery, some outdoor grilling knives and cleavers and things that that we see a need for.
But we've got to get our manufacturing to where we're not so backlogged.
Before we really can bring in any new products like that.
Folders.
I noticed.
Uh, I think it was last year you did a collaboration with Boker Knives was a boker.
Yeah.

56:34
Yeah.
That one has been in the works for about 10 years, I guess.
And I did a night a design with Boker initially there.
Their thoughts were after we did the design that they wanted to send it and have it made in in Asia and and they they do some great knives in China and now and.
And that's fine but it's not where we are as a company and so when they just they they wanted to make it in Germany and I thought well that's OK I have some, some I can you know we have a lot of.
Customers and a lot of military connections then allied countries and so they they then they ended up doing it in Italy, which I'm fine with that too.
It's very nice now if the knife manufacturing is done by Fox, which is extremely high quality.

57:25
And so when they came out with it, I was happy to see it.
And you know it's not like I get any royalties or anything off that.
It's just a project that I wanted to do because.
You know, like bulk Boker, I've carried Boker knowledge myself and and was very happy to work with them and so that that was great.
And we tried to do some folding knives ourselves and we did several.
We did the F1, the F1B several years ago and then we did a an F3.
And these are very collectible too.

58:00
And then we did a folding knife like locking liner lock design for six hour.
And so we've done some, but we did have to contract out the CNC work on us because we don't have the equipment to do that.
In our philosophy, I won't say it's changed, but we have narrowed it down to where all the operations with the exception of a little bit of heat treating and some of the sheath base platforms that we use, we all we do it all in House.
And so that's why we quit making folding knives is because until we're ready to set up that kind of CNC equipment to do them again ourselves, we keep it in house, we're we're just not going to get into that market.
There's a lot of companies out there like.
Doctor, that make exceptionally good folding knives and the only similarity in a folding knife and fixed blade knives, they're both called a knife.
Anything else is it?

58:55
It's a total different animal.
It's it's not even similar in the processes for the most part.
So we we focus on what we do best.
Fixed blade knives and hatchets and other tools and and I've got to pretty much stick to that.
I believe maybe in the future for the next generations, I want to do folding knives.
They can.
I won't.

59:15
Meeting, but for right now I don't think it's in in my future anyway other than collaborations with company like Poker.
And I think we're talking about doing a slightly smaller version of that knife for the next run and and they're done in small batches, limited editions.
That's the 1st edition I believe is 300 and.
The next edition may be a little bit more just at that.
That is all up to Boker, but I hope to have a good number of them myself for sale when when they come out and this Boker knife now which is sold out.
As far as I know in the in the market, I do have a few of them here that I was able to get and we're going to sell them.
Well, we'll talk about where I'm going to sell and when you hit that point, but it won't be on the website.

01:00:02
Well in closing I just, I, I have to ask are you still doing your custom work?
Is that something you still do for yourself or is it or has that you know gone by the wayside as as production increases and all that?
Karen, I have not taken any custom orders since I think 2006 or 2007. We haven't produced any for sale.
Uh, I still do a little bit of the hand porch.
one-of-a-kind pieces pieces.
And for three different reasons.
One is when we may do a prototype on a new product such as the Highland Hunter and the Highland Hatchet.

01:00:42
Actually hand forged prototypes for those.
And then once I got them right like I want because they were very historically influenced designs, we did CAD drawings of those originals to do in production.
A second reason that I do occasionally.
Because these knives of the hand forge that are not available anymore have a a a good value.
And so if I want to support a charitable contribution, a charitable organization such as one of the SEAL foundations or or mill or police or whatever, if I want to do something really special that brings some extra money, I may hand forge a knife for them for them to sell in an auction.
To bring in extra money.
And a third reason is on occasion, because of our military contacts we we might have done this on a few occasions to help with some winding down after a particular difficult deployment or something.

01:01:41
Bring some of these guys into the shop and I'll take them through and let them hand forge a blade, show them how to do it and help them along with it.
Forge it and grind it and heat treat it with the handle on just as sort of as a therapy.
Thing and so I enjoy doing that on occasion.
So there are a few out there, new ones that come out.
There's some that come out that we did years ago on the secondary market that are still that are bringing a whole lot more than I ever sold them for, but it's good for the collector market.
But as far as doing that, taking orders and selling, I will.
I don't see that in my future.

01:02:13
Well, Daniel Winkler, what a pleasure and an honor to have you on the Knife Junkie podcast, Sir.
Thank you so much for coming on and telling us.
Skimming the surface on your career and knives, it's been a pleasure.
Well, thank you.
It's been a pleasure talking with you.
I appreciate the opportunity to to let people know who I am and what Winkler knives is, because there's a lot of talk that goes on out there and and there's some misconceptions on what we do and who we do it for.
And that's always the opportunity to make sure the record is as clear as possible.

01:02:43
Well, I'm glad we could do that for you, Sir.
Uh, but for me, selfishly, it was just a pleasure meeting you.
Thank you.
Pleasure meeting you.
Take care, Sir.
Do you use terms like handle the blade ratio, walk and talk, hair pop and sharp or tank like then you are a dork and a knife junkie.
There he goes, ladies and gentlemen.

01:03:07
Daniel Winkler was so cool to meet him and to talk to him and and it it kind of made me feel a little cagey when he said knives just boiled down to geometry, physics and chemistry.
I was like, I should have been paying more attention in school.
In any case, great to have him here.
Be sure to check us out next week for another great interview Wednesday for the midweek supplemental and join us again Thursday night, 10:00 PM, Eastern Standard Time for Thursday Night Knives Live on YouTube.
Facebook.
And Twitch for Jim working his magic behind the Switcher.
I'm Bob DeMarco saying until next time, don't take dull for an answer.

01:03:42
Thanks for listening to the Knife Junkie podcast.
If you enjoyed the show, please rate and review it.
Review thepodcast.com for show notes for today's episode, additional resources and to listen to past episodes, visit our website, theknifejunkie.com.
You can also watch our latest videos on YouTube at theknifejunkie.com/youtube.
Check out some great night photos on theknifejunkie.com/instagram.
And join our Facebook group at theknifejunkie.com/facebook.
And if you have a question or comment, e-mail them to Bob@theknifjunkie.com or call our 24/7 listener line at 724-466-4487 and you may hear your comment or question answered on an upcoming episode of the Knife Junkie podcast.