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Announcer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob the knife junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:16]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast. I'm Bob DeMarco. On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with custom knife maker Nick Bactyl of the NM Bactyl Forging Company. I first came across Nick's work on Instagram while doomscrolling big blades, as one does, when I stumbled upon one of his antler crown handled mirror polished Bowie knives. It had a perfect fighting profile, exquisite finishing, and as a bonus, a beautiful sheath of my favorite variety, the kind you slip up to the stud under your belt. After following him for a while, I discovered that his offerings go way beyond the Bowie, and his impeccably crafted wears are made with some older school methods and techniques. Nick also, coincidentally, lives and works not far from where I grew up. So next time I'm home to visit the folks, I'll be inviting myself over.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:09]:
We'll find out all about Nick's knife making career, his philosophy, and the back tell forging company. But first, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, and hit the notification bell, and, you can download the show to your favorite podcast app. If you'd like to help support the show, you can do so on Patreon. Quickest way to get there is to scan the QR code on your screen or head on over to the knifejunkie.com/patreon. Again, that's the knifejunkie.com/patreon.

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Bob DeMarco [00:01:49]:
Nick, welcome to the show, sir.

Nick Bachtel [00:01:51]:
Thank you for having me. I I greatly appreciate it.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:54]:
It's my pleasure. My pleasure. As I mentioned up front, really not only love the knives I see on your Instagram feed, and and I've I discovered you also have a YouTube channel, but I like watching you work. I've seen a couple I saw that Knicks Boots video. Got to see you work, in your forge. Pretty pretty fun to watch, and I noticed you have some old school influences. How did you get started in knife making and knives?

Nick Bachtel [00:02:25]:
Let's see. Well, I think knife making is kind of like the it's where all of my interests intersect. And, I started making knives when I was 18, fresh out of high school. I grew up as, like, a crazy wild child kid. I've been I've been a fisherman. I was born a fisherman and, spent a lot of time in the woods, spent a lot of time on the lakes and rivers with my dad. And, when you're out there, you you kinda learn the the value of a good tool. So that's kind of like the very foundation of where I came into knife making and using knives.

Nick Bachtel [00:03:10]:
Growing up, I've always had a very I've had an interest with things that are old and things that are handmade. And I've been a little bit of an an artist. When I was younger, I would draw pictures of fish that I'd catch and birds that I'd see and trees and landscapes and all sorts of stuff. I've had a little bit of natural ability in, you know, that regard, but, all of those different paths met and I started making knives.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:43]:
That was What is it about the handmade stuff? I'm sorry. I just interrupted you right after.

Nick Bachtel [00:03:48]:
No. You're okay.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:49]:
What is it about handmade, things that compel you?

Nick Bachtel [00:03:58]:
I can I can kind of remember the first time I saw something handmade and, like, a a light bulb went off? My family and I, I have a bunch of siblings, and my mom and my dad, we we love Christmas. We love the we have crazy family tradition and, we love, like, handmade glass Christmas ornaments. We have a giant collection of them that have built up over the years. And we used to go to a a German market here in Akron. They don't have it anymore, but German craftspeople would come from Germany every winter and sell handmade Christmas ornaments and little, very finely whittled sculpted sculptures and just all sorts of really cool stuff. But I I must have been 10 or 11, and I would see these, like, wooden, whittled I I don't even know what they call them. Landscapes. And that's the light bulb went off of, like, these people are really doing something.

Nick Bachtel [00:05:09]:
They're making something by hand. And, the the skill that they were, you know, showing off here in Akron, Ohio, they're bringing from Germany, was insane. It was insanely gorgeous. And, like, today, you know, handmade is kind of a trendy oh, it's handcrafted, blah blah blah. These the stuff that these German artists were bringing were those were purely handmade, and those were the skills that they used to make those little landscapes that they would carve out of wood were probably passed down, like, generation to generation. That was, like, purest handmade, high skill, just so cool. And that that light bulb went off, and then I had to I had to figure out how to do that. I the the that's like the fire.

Nick Bachtel [00:06:06]:
That's where it started, I think. That started the kindling. You know?

Bob DeMarco [00:06:10]:
Yeah. That, it's interesting that you bring up the Germans in particular. I mean, I'm, I'm always impressed by European craftsmanship that came here, when there are there was a huge influx of European immigrants in the early 20th century and the late 19th century. My family and I had the great fortune to go to Germany last year, last spring, and the Cologne Cathedral, every it's a giant I think it might be the biggest cathedral in Europe, but every space inside and outside I mean, literally, it it's it's almost blindingly beautiful and detailed everywhere you look. There there are there's exquisite sculpture from the end of the pews to, some corner of a ceiling that you never even look at. Everything is covered with skilled craftsmanship and and and handwork. And it all looks as if it's made by the same person. It's like it's not like, the guy up there was worse than the guy down here.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:13]:
It seems like had this high level of skill.

Nick Bachtel [00:07:16]:
Oh, yeah. And that's that's exactly what European craftsmen had that, you know, some American when they you know, Europeans came to America, they brought that with them. And, we could go on a whole history lesson of some of the the old American, like, first generation immigrant knifemakers in America who made, like they brought that old world generational knowledge and skill. They brought it to America and made, like, the coolest, awesome Bowie knives. I mean, that's that's why I make knives right there. It's just that.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:56]:
Well, so you you decided that lit a fire, in you, fire in your belly, and you start you have the idea that you want to make knives. Did it evolve into knives or is that where you took your craftsmanship right away?

Nick Bachtel [00:08:14]:
No. So I've I've been somewhat of a maker and a bit of a entrepreneur since I was, you know, a a very young teenager. My dad is a pretty big name in the outdoor community in Ohio, Northeast Ohio, and, he had a lot of friends who wanted fishing lures to take on Lake Erie. There's a huge, you know, walleye and perch fishery in Lake Erie, generates a bajillion dollars, and, there's some guys up there. They, you know, they the certain lures that they used, were pretty simple to make, and, one of my dad's friends kind of heard that, oh, Carl's son wants to start making these. They're called, crawler harnesses. And I literally a friend of my dad's who owned a tackle shop gave me some some old stuff that he had and said, you know, you wanna make them, go right ahead. And I started putting together these crawler harnesses, and and then we would go to outdoor shows where my dad would give seminars on fishing, crappie fishing, and walleye fishing on Lake Erie and stuff like that.

Nick Bachtel [00:09:27]:
And, I would sell these crawler harnesses. I probably sold maybe not 500, but I probably I I made quite a few of them when I was 12 11, 12. And, that was my first, like I this took me years to realize even after I started knife making. I was like, oh, I've had this kind of entrepreneurial maker spirit, like, forever. Those crawler harnesses, I I I like I said, it took time to realize, but that the the seed was sown. And, like, hey. You can you can make stuff with your hands, and there's people who will buy nice stuff. They they didn't like the stuff that they sold at the tackle store, so they would come to me and commission these crawler harnesses, and I would crank them out for them.

Nick Bachtel [00:10:18]:
And, that was good fun. But as a teenager, you quickly figure out, you know, making things for other people. You figure out expectations and meeting people's expectations and all that fun stuff. And, the the crawler harness business kinda petered out. Not, you know I wanted to go fishing. That's what it came down to. I wanted to go fishing. I didn't wanna be at home making making stuff.

Nick Bachtel [00:10:47]:
So, I would still make my dad's stuff. But that was another, like there was a couple endeavors when I was younger, like seeing the handmade German, you know, carved Christmas ornaments or, you know, making crawler harnesses and selling them for money, and people were dishing out money and paying for them. There were there's a handful of small endeavors like that that it makes sense of where I am now, you know, being a knifemaker. This will be I'm on my I'm working on my 8th year of just being a knife maker.

Bob DeMarco [00:11:26]:
I I feel like I've seen, and I think I'm considerably, older than you are, but I I feel like I've seen in the last 20 years or so, like, this shift, away from the slick thing being the thing that you want and and moving to, you know, this the the maker's, maker's economy and, artisanal products and that kind of thing, whether it's in food or Yeah. In, you know, the clothing, and and that kinda thing. When you when you kinda moved 8 years ago, when you started making knives, how did you decide on how well, tell you'll tell us about your process, but there are a lot of, very, you know, slick and I shouldn't put it that way. There are a lot of modern ways to make knives, and you don't kind of, do those. Tell tell us how you make a knife. Tell us how you got into it and how you learned and, what it is about that process.

Nick Bachtel [00:12:27]:
Yeah. So I started making knives right out of high school when I was 18. I kinda didn't know what I wanted to do, and, I was always kind of an artistic kid who also ran wild in the woods and in the river. I probably spent more time, you know, walking a river with a a fishing rod in hand than I have, you know, walking in all other aspects of my life. When I started making knives, like I said, I I was just out of high school. I kinda didn't know what I wanted to do. Should I go into the military? Should I become a welder? And that's I I kinda dip my toe in that world, you know, in a short, you know, maybe 6 month long. I worked in a welding shop.

Nick Bachtel [00:13:17]:
I hated it. It sucked. It was terrible. It took me a while to figure out that I I don't follow the rules very well, and, I I managed to get an anvil. I'm not at liberty to let you know how I got it, but let's say an anvil presented itself to me, and I took that, you know Opportunities. Yeah. I took that opportunity. The ends justify the means, and that amble will be returned to its rightful.

Nick Bachtel [00:13:54]:
You know, I, you know, I I come from a blue collar family. My dad works for the news. My mom's a nurse, and I have a couple other siblings. I have 2 sisters and a little brother. And, there wasn't a whole lot of money to be thrown around. I I I don't come from a family where, you know, dad will buy this for you and, stuff like that. So I I got an anvil. I made that happen.

Nick Bachtel [00:14:23]:
In my shop class in high school, I took oh, I'm rambling. I'm rambling already.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:27]:
Alright. Tell us how you got into knives. You're you're

Nick Bachtel [00:14:30]:
That's not I'm I'm wrapping it up. So let's just say I started my my knife shop, I built a coal forge, and I had an anvil. I had no idea of where I was going from there. So I literally just started. I found a place that sold coal. Thankfully, they were close by. Got coal, got a a hammer, and just started putting putting the pieces together. I started knife making like I'm not in the forged in fire crowd.

Nick Bachtel [00:15:02]:
I'm just, like, 1 year before that, maybe. I had an anvil. I started getting steel hot, and it I just spent hours and hours and hours figuring it out from nothing. And 8 years later, you know, it's it's the hardest way to go about knife making, doing it completely on your own without a mentor or without a a teacher of some sort, but, that's that's how I got started. And just within a month or 2, I had my first knife, and then somebody commissioned a little knife. It was a an ugly little puko, a little Scandinavian type. Mhmm. But it was great, and I sold to him.

Nick Bachtel [00:15:49]:
I went to his dad for Christmas, and, that was kind of the beginning of it. And it's time in the shop, finding what I like, and just sticking to those those instincts and just following my heart, I guess, following my heart and just like something, figure out how to do it, figure out how to make it. I didn't have money to buy a cool knife, so I figured I'd make my own. And and that's kind of that leads to making, you know, some some pretty nice pretty good looking Bowie knives.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:26]:
Yeah. I'll say so. And that's Bowie knives, also daggers. We just saw, some of your daggers up on screen. But what I find interesting, I mean, is that even, you know, forging forging a knife is kind of an old school way of doing it, or one way of doing it, that's, less modern than others, but the fact that you use a coal forge is very interesting to me. There aren't too many modern, modern day forgers who who do that. I I don't think. I mean, I haven't spoken to many of them.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:58]:
They use the big gas forges like you might see on Forged in Fire.

Nick Bachtel [00:17:02]:
Yeah. I just I just like old stuff. Like, if anything will become apparent from our little podcasting today, it'll be that I am I am cut from some old timey cloth. I am I am born a 150 years too late or something like that. Nicole, like, I was just drawn to it. I I I love the old dirty it's awesome. And what thankfully, coal offers there's some advantages over propane. One being that it's cheaper.

Nick Bachtel [00:17:40]:
You save some money there. But on on a blade, you can you can heat up you can get small isolated heats. Let's say you wanna straighten the tip of a knife. In a gas forge, you get you pretty much get the entire blade hot. In a coal forge, you can work on small segments of the blade and just get a small segment of it hot. And so there's there's some advantages there. Other than that, it it's just cool, man. I love it.

Nick Bachtel [00:18:09]:
I forge with my Koforge almost every single day. And and like you said, there's not a there's not a whole lot of knifemakers who use it. I can only think of 1, master bladesmith, Lin Ray, who's a good friend. He just tremendous craftsman, but he loves the coal. I I think he does a little bit of both, but I hope to forge with coal until forever. You know? I I love it. I hope it never goes away. You know?

Bob DeMarco [00:18:37]:
Can you get, extra carbon for the steel? I don't even know if that's the right way of putting it, but, does does the coal imbue any carbon into the steel?

Nick Bachtel [00:18:50]:
I don't know. I'm not I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna say it does. You do get some you don't in a propane forge, you you burn the carbon out of your steel. It's called decarburization. If you forge on a knife for hours, you will literally leach the carbon out of the blade. With coal, it doesn't happen. It happens a little bit, but not not nearly as bad. You know, my I forged some blades with a a good friend of mine who has a coal forge, and you always have to worry about that decarburization layer.

Nick Bachtel [00:19:24]:
You have to make sure you grind through that to get to good steel. But, But, with coal, I've never really ran into that issue. It's like something I don't think about.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:33]:
Okay. So you mentioned before we started rolling, you have an earlier blade with you. You have some you have several blades, but I wanna see this early one that we're talking about first.

Nick Bachtel [00:19:41]:
Okay. It was about 3 years in and I had a show to go to and I wanted to make a little a little Bowie knife that I could hang on to and carry and this is that.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:53]:
Oh, that is cool.

Nick Bachtel [00:19:56]:
For being 3 years in, it was pro it was my the best work that I had produced at the time. It had a really clean, like, 600 grit hand sanded finish and, this cool little top clip. Let's see if we can get in there.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:11]:
Yeah. That looks like a Sheffield clip right there.

Nick Bachtel [00:20:14]:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. A little filed in type Sheffield style clip. A lot of those influences. This guard is actually hot fit on here. So you get the guard hot. So you get the guard hot, you put the blade in a vice, and you you get the guard ripping hot, and you hammer it onto the shoulders of the blade.

Nick Bachtel [00:20:37]:
Oh, wow. The blade literally sits into a little, like, 2 little recessed shoulder spots for you know, to sit into, but it was done hot. And, you know, that's how a a blades or a blacksmith would have fit up a guard. Like, you know, maybe if they were making swords or something. It's not always the the super cleanest fit up, but, it it it does look cool. So this has a hot fit guard, a little coffin handle. Love it.

Bob DeMarco [00:21:12]:
Yeah. Is that leather stacked leather?

Nick Bachtel [00:21:14]:
No. It's, curly maple.

Bob DeMarco [00:21:17]:
Oh, gosh.

Nick Bachtel [00:21:18]:
Yeah. It's kinda hard to see if it'll focus. I you know?

Bob DeMarco [00:21:21]:
I can see. Yeah. Hold it right there. Mhmm. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. I see that.

Nick Bachtel [00:21:27]:
But this is some Ohio curly maple. It's some locally grown stuff, with an aqua Fortis finish, which is like an acid finish that, gunmakers used to use, you know, pre 1900, like, in the old black powder days. They wouldn't use stain. This is a I guess it's a kind of stain, but it, you know, darkens it up and you get this really nice tiger striping and it doesn't fade over time. And then, this little pommel nut, a little the nut I made, it all, you know, screws together. This is actually a takedown.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:03]:
Oh. So I can un

Nick Bachtel [00:22:04]:
I could unscrew this, take the whole blade apart, and clean it back up. It's a pretty dirty knife, and, you know, I doubt I'll ever clean it up. But, yeah, it's a full takedown.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:14]:
Looks like it's been sharpened a few times too by the

Nick Bachtel [00:22:16]:
Oh, oh, yeah. That's it. I can't stand knife makers who make knives and don't use them. And, this one, I've I've taken this one across America twice. Been, you know, I can't tell you how many trips and how many trout this thing is filleted and how many, you know, it's done a lot of work. And to be to be honest with you, it's not that great of a knife. But, I I learned so much, you know, you kinda learn what makes a good knife. The best knife is the one you have, and this is the one that I've had.

Nick Bachtel [00:22:51]:
You know, I still carry it. I carried it today.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:53]:
That's cool. That's so that's your personal carry, that little that little bow. It has about a 5 inch blade, maybe 5 and a half inch blade.

Nick Bachtel [00:23:00]:
Yeah. Yeah. About 5 and a half. Handles, maybe 4, 4 and a quarter or so. Really handy little size. I probably wouldn't make a Bowie knife any smaller than that, but, great little size.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:14]:
So so when you look at that now, what do what do you think? I mean, I know you think it's a great useful tool, but what have you learned, what did you learn from that knife? And and, I ask that because I'll look at old drawings and think, oh my gosh, what was I doing then, you know?

Nick Bachtel [00:23:35]:
I've learned that as much as it it's cool to, heat treat a blade in a coal forge, which is what I did on that little Bowie knife, The oven is nice. The oven is hard to argue with because this knife, it takes a good edge, and it it's pretty good. And I have no problem sharpening it, but that an oven heat treatment is that's what you gotta stick to. So consistency through heat treating, that's, like, one thing. You know? It was apparent that I needed to step it up in that department. I I don't I don't know. It's it's a really nice knife. It's pretty straight.

Nick Bachtel [00:24:21]:
I remember handing this knife to people, and they would look at it like people who've never made a knife, people who don't don't even collect you know, not a whole lot of they go, it looks a little crooked. Oh, it looks crooked. Like, screw you, man. That's not crooked. Like, you what are you talking about? And and it kind of made me it made me realize that, like, some people are kinda folded. You know? We can get into that more. I have some pretty I'm a little bit of a a opinionated fellow when it comes to you know?

Bob DeMarco [00:24:56]:
Well, yeah. I mean, that's, as it should be, especially, people who are creators, for a living. You're gonna have very, very you've got all your skin in that game. You're gonna have some pretty, well entrenched opinions about things and how they should be. It's funny. I was at a dinner party not too long ago, and, oh, oh, you're into knives? Yeah. And I was talking to a chef, professional chef. Great guy.

Bob DeMarco [00:25:22]:
But I hand him the knife out of my pocket and he's like, that edge needs to be touched up. And I I was so offended. I said, what do you mean? And and then I just let it go. But he's also used to super thin chef's knives.

Nick Bachtel [00:25:35]:
Right. I think one of the most frustrating things as a maker is you like, I I've made I've I've made some awesome knives. They're just undeniably awesome. I'm not I'm not here to, you know, stroke my ego or say that I make the best knives or anything, but undeniably, you can't it was an undeniably awesome knife. You send it to somebody who I thought was knowledgeable and was, you know, knew what their was worth their salt a little bit. And, they come back and go, it's not sharp. And I go, no. It's sharp.

Nick Bachtel [00:26:17]:
I I put a it's ground to almost 0. It has, you know, the smallest little secondary bevel, polish the burr off, if that's the thing. It had a polished edge, so when you feel it, you don't feel that burr.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:31]:
Uh-huh. You

Nick Bachtel [00:26:31]:
just feel that polished edge. They go, dun it's not sharp. And they go, okay. Cut something with it. And then you go, oh.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:41]:
Oh,

Nick Bachtel [00:26:41]:
I see. That that's it it's razor it's so sharp. It just has a polished edge. And, you know oh, it showed up, but it's not sharp. It's like, come on, man. I I'll I'll sit I'll I will sharp I will sit there and sharpen a knife for 2 hours just going oh, I I think it could be a little bit better. Oh, I think I think the bird needs a little bit more here. I and I I will I will go through like, I have the, like, magazine papers, and I'll just sit there.

Nick Bachtel [00:27:10]:
Yeah. Make sure that every inch of that blade is just ridiculously sharp. And then I take it, wipe oil on it, put it in the sheath, put it in the box, ship it. So I am 100% sure that it's, you know, people make mistakes. I make mistakes. That's for sure. But I know the knife is sharp. Come on.

Bob DeMarco [00:27:34]:
So let's see. You mentioned that you just finished up one for your father. And I I know that, I I focus a lot on bowies and, and the more, combative designs like daggers and stuff,

Nick Bachtel [00:27:46]:
but you do a lot of other stuff. If you

Bob DeMarco [00:27:48]:
look on your, past work page on your website, you see tons of variety. Can we see the one that you just finished for your father?

Nick Bachtel [00:27:56]:
Yes. So my dad was due for a good knife. It's been it's been a while. I made him a knife a long time ago, but it was an early one. Uh-oh. I think my headphone went out. Is it good?

Bob DeMarco [00:28:11]:
Yeah. I can hear you.

Nick Bachtel [00:28:12]:
Okay. I don't know what the heck's going on. Okay. So this is the knife I made him. Yeah. Let's see. Yeah. There's some terrible lighting in here, but this is what I call my companion.

Nick Bachtel [00:28:28]:
And it's named after my dad because he's been my companion out there in the woods and, you know, everybody needs a good companion. Everybody needs one of these.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:39]:
So just to describe it to people who might just be listening, it reminds me the blade well, it's a clip point, but it reminds me a little bit, just a little bit of the old Marbles, outdoors knife.

Nick Bachtel [00:28:52]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:53]:
You know what I'm talking about?

Nick Bachtel [00:28:54]:
I know exactly what you're talking about. So, this knife, it's a a pretty close copy to the hunting knives made in, like, the late 1800 by a couple of bladesmiths in San Francisco, like the Gold Rush California Bladesmiths. There was only a couple of them, but they made some absolutely gorgeous, timeless, timeless knives. And those I mean, pure Americana. So cool. And this this is pretty pretty much a copy. I'll have to I'll have to send you a picture of, like, this hunter, but it's just a heavy blade clip point hunter. Webster Marbles, like you're talking about, they basically copied what they were making in San Francisco.

Nick Bachtel [00:29:49]:
So those all those those knifemakers, the one guy who I really, like, died in 18/84 or something. Another company in San Francisco was open well into, like, the twenties, but they kind of went from knives to gambling equipment and, like, kitchen stuff like lemon squeezers and stuff like that. But in in about 1900 or the late 18 nineties, the Webster Marble Company came out, and they were making similar clip point hunters like that. They were basically very close copies to what they were making, you know, 50 years ago back in old San Francisco. So this is very, like, you know, you see those influences of those knifemakers a 120 years ago. I just went to the source.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:42]:
Is that a zero ground swedge?

Nick Bachtel [00:30:45]:
This one, it's it's ground 0, and then I literally just dust it off. I I don't want a a a sharp clip on this. Yeah. This is for my dad, and he's not out there, you know, fighting people in the streets necessarily. He, you know, he's out there ice fishing, sitting on a bucket, having a good time.

Bob DeMarco [00:31:08]:
It looks like this Tang has a distal taper and, like, some sort of a bone handle.

Nick Bachtel [00:31:13]:
The handle is, moose. It's moose antler. It's the interior moose antler. And, of course, this side, it's kinda hard to see, but the side with my stamp on it, like the show side, has some of that pith, which is fine. It's super tough. It looks just like bone or like ivory. And then the the the other side is like a perfect, super hard, clear, white, gorgeous handle material, just tough tough as nails, and it's natural. I don't I don't I don't really use plastic handle materials like G10 or Micarta.

Nick Bachtel [00:31:49]:
They're cool. They're fine. I I like natural stuff.

Bob DeMarco [00:31:53]:
Gotcha. While I interrupt you, you were saying you were trying to do something. You said this knife is for my dad. He's not fighting in the street, and then I ended up

Nick Bachtel [00:32:01]:
Oh, yeah. I have a like myself, I've I've been using this other knife for ages. You know, it's it's kind of a case of and other knife makers know this 100%. It's like the the cobbler or the shoemaker. The shoemaker's kids don't wear shoes. Right? They, you know, you gotta be selling knives to to make the money, so you kind of, not take advantage of the people around you. But what I'm trying to say is my dad deserved a really great knife, not just not just kind of an afterthought. You know? So, yeah, this I made him this knife for Christmas.

Nick Bachtel [00:32:41]:
I hate deadlines. And, but I I managed to get it done. I got it done, like, a week in advance. And, he actually he collects old little imperial pocket knives like fish knives. Yeah. Yeah. And, he's been asking me for months to make him a little, like, belt sheath to put his folding knives in. And on Christmas, you know, he's sitting there in his chair, and we're all opening up gifts.

Nick Bachtel [00:33:06]:
And I give him his the box. He opens it up, and I go, it was just the sheath for this knife, this right here.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:14]:
Oh, nice.

Nick Bachtel [00:33:15]:
And, and I go, see see if your see if your imperial folder fits in that. And he puts it in there, and it's, like, wobbling around. He's like, what the heck? And I go, alright. Try this one. And I handed this to him, and he was just like, oh, man. Oh, it's great.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:31]:
That's cool.

Nick Bachtel [00:33:32]:
Yeah, man.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:33]:
Well, I hope one of my daughters goes into knife making because, that sounds like an awesome Christmas gift.

Nick Bachtel [00:33:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it I've been making knives for a long time, and, like, my parents, they I my shop is at their house, and, you know, they allow me to do that. I mean, early in the early days and, I mean, even fairly recently where I was am I going like, oh, should I keep making knives? Like, this this is tough. It's tough business, and, you know, it's tough to do. And my my where my dad could be like, oh, you go get a job. Go get some security. You know? It's time to have a family of your own, whatever.

Nick Bachtel [00:34:14]:
My dad was like, no. Keep stick to knife making. You know? It's just because you get some job somewhere doesn't mean that your life's gonna be easy. Like, it's all work. It's all, you know, it's all tough. So and, like, my mom is right there with her just let me do my thing and, you know, they're just fantastic. I couldn't be more thankful.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:36]:
Yeah. There's there's nothing that you can do without hard work. Okay. Jim, if you would stop right there, actually. These are the knives I was trying to describe to you. I'm not sure what the influence is. What are these? I've seen you making a number of these recently, on this top row here.

Nick Bachtel [00:34:52]:
Yes. So on the top row, those are those San Francisco Gold Rush era type Bowie Knives and Daggers. So that one, I think, those aren't the same knives, but it's a very similar 7 inch Bowie. That dagger, they have bronze sheaths that have a a leather liner inside them. Oh. I just finished one of these, and I shipped it out last week. Uh-huh. My my client was putting the pressure on to get it out, so I wish I woulda had it today.

Nick Bachtel [00:35:27]:
But it was that on my Instagram, it was that wrought iron San Mai with the elk antler and the bronze. That's the one I just finished up. Those like, you were talking about those old European craftsmen. So in, like, the 18 fifties, there was a a German guy. There was a guy who came from Germany, and, his name was Frederick Will, and he was part of Will and Fink. I believe he was the knifemaker. And the other guy is Michael Price, and that that's like my favorite, you know I wanna name my son Michael Price because I love these knives so much. It it is why I make knives.

Nick Bachtel [00:36:13]:
He was an Irish immigrant who came from Limerick, Ireland during the 18 fifties, like, right after the gold rush in California happened. And, he brought that generational like, his dad was a knifemaker. His dad's dad was a knifemaker or a cutler as they would call it back in, you know, those days in in Europe. And, you bring that generational knowledge to America, to California, the land of gold. They're pulling money out of you know? And, just they bring that generational skill to the land of gold where there's so much money, and it's it's the frontier. There it is so crazy. You know, gamblers are stabbing each other at the poker table or the the pharaoh table. And, you know, there's guys skinning thousands of buffalo in Montana during the great buffalo kill, and there's people fighting at gold claims.

Nick Bachtel [00:37:14]:
There's newspaper stories of guys using Michael Price knives recorded in, like, gold claim disputes and guy, you know, coming out and saying that he killed 4 guys with this little, you know, gentleman's kinda Bowie knife. That's so cool. That, That gives me, like, goosebumps just thinking about it, but that is that is, like, that's the those are the knives I love. That's the stuff I wanna make. And like you were saying earlier, there are so many modern, you know, CNC machines and plasma cutters and, you know, you gotta crank out a bajillion knives. I hate that. I wanna run away from that as far as I can. I hate the computerized everything.

Nick Bachtel [00:38:06]:
I I I wanna run a a shop that runs off of steam, and I have a steam power hammer, so I'm getting there. Oh, yeah. I'm getting there.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:17]:
Actually, I wanna we're we're gonna talk in a minute about some of your old school tools.

Nick Bachtel [00:38:22]:
Mhmm.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:23]:
But I will before we move on to that, there are 2 things I wanna talk about. First of all, as I mentioned in my intro to you, I love your sheaths also. And these bronze sheaths, are you making the bra I'm presuming that you make those also. How the hell do you make a bronze sheath?

Nick Bachtel [00:38:41]:
Well, to start off, I I make I do the the blades. I forge the blades, heat treat them all in house, do all the handles, and then I do all the leather working too. So I'm like a soul a soul maker. I make everything on these knives. The bronze sheaths, traditionally, I've made them out of, bronze, copper, and nickel silver, and sterling silver. And it is you take a a sheet of this material, whatever it is. We can just say silver because that's what was used traditionally, and you make a steel pattern of your knife. And, you know, there's certain there's a a little buoy that I'm working on.

Nick Bachtel [00:39:22]:
I don't think this one's gonna get a metal sheath, but this is kind of one that I would make a metal sheath for. Mhmm. I would make a a steel pattern that follows the knife, but it's there's a little bit of, slop. There's a little bit extra material on the pattern. And then I cut 2 tracings of the pattern onto the the silver, the the the metal that I'm making the sheath out of, and then I hammer one half of that sheath around the, around the pattern, and then I do the other side, and then I silver braze them together to make Wow. Basically like a tube, and then you you clean up that the, the seam, get that seam perfect on on the nickel silver ones. You can't even see. Like, it looks looks like one piece of, that would be great.

Nick Bachtel [00:40:17]:
You know, it looks like one piece because the the silver brazing material, like, looks just like nickel silver. Anyways so, yeah, tons of polishing, but you get that fit. I've made maybe half a dozen of these metal sheaths now, But you make that, sheath body over that mandrel, over that pattern, and then you make a a leather liner that follows the blade. It's literally wet formed to whatever blade is going in the sheath. It's I hammer it so it's a perfect glove fit, and then I grind the outside of this leather sleeve that fits into the bra into the metal sheath, and the blade, shoop, slips right in. And, that's that's how they did it in 18 60, 18 70. Why they would need a metal sheath back in those days is crazy, but, they are so cool. There there is nothing like one of those sheaths and, like, the leather retention.

Nick Bachtel [00:41:22]:
It it's the pinnacle of handmade knives in my opinion.

Bob DeMarco [00:41:26]:
That's that's probably why they did it because it's so cool. You know, it was probably a Mhmm. Packing rights kinda thing. And I also noticed on the outside, you have a clip. So, presumably, that goes over the belt, in lieu of a

Nick Bachtel [00:41:39]:
stud,

Bob DeMarco [00:41:40]:
so the whole thing slips under your belt.

Nick Bachtel [00:41:43]:
Yeah. Those those little spring clips, I I make those too. They're cut and bent and forged and, heat treated and everything. Those can either go in your belt, on smaller daggers.

Bob DeMarco [00:41:56]:
That's the one. You can

Nick Bachtel [00:41:57]:
yeah. That's the the antler the crown. The the clips on the metal sheaths, traditionally, a lot of these old Goldrush knives were small and, concealable. And it was in the time in American history where big Bowie knives were getting smaller and smaller and smaller. And, so, like, I have one of these San Francisco Bowie knives that has the the little spear point shape with the long clip Mhmm. And the guard. This is what it looks like before the the handle the tang is forged after the guard is fit. That's a whole another process.

Nick Bachtel [00:42:34]:
The spring clips, this little knife will have a metal sheath with a spring clip on it, and guys would conceal them, like, right in their, like, a vest pocket or, like, a vest, like, right in the arm opening. I mean, you could draw that out and stab the guy who just stole your nugget of gold or whatever, you know? Yeah. They were small, like, gentleman's knives, but they were made during a time where people actually used them.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:02]:
Yeah.

Nick Bachtel [00:43:03]:
And, you know, that that makes it for me for sure.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:06]:
You also do push daggers, which to me, I always think of, you know, in the cummerbund of a of a Mhmm.

Nick Bachtel [00:43:12]:
Riverbund

Bob DeMarco [00:43:12]:
gambler or something like that.

Nick Bachtel [00:43:14]:
Yeah. Exactly. I just finished one of those. It had a pink ivory handle. It was super cool, but same kinda deal. Just a small small but robust knife that you could conceal and, you know, pull it out when you need to do some work, man.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:31]:
There it is.

Nick Bachtel [00:43:32]:
That was a slick little oh, yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:35]:
That's a beaut. Oh, man. So, also something I wanted to talk to you about. I saw another video on your, I think, on your YouTube channel, where you talk about sort of gaming out a knife like you're you're you don't just throw yourself into it, you're trying out different handles and making mock up handles and that and do you do you know which video I'm talking about?

Nick Bachtel [00:43:57]:
Yeah. Yeah. I made a little wood pattern For the longest time and even still in my process, I I kind of gather what inspires me and come together on an idea, usually for a client or something. Most of my knives are custom order. Sometimes I'll have one extra, but they usually don't last too long, which is a good problem to have. But we kinda come together. Hey. I want a, you know, a 6 inch San Francisco Gold Rush Bowie knife.

Nick Bachtel [00:44:27]:
And I said, okay. I got this. I have some handle material, fossilized walrus ivory or elk antler or this or that. And,

Bob DeMarco [00:44:37]:
I'm not gonna sit here and say that

Nick Bachtel [00:44:38]:
I just straight up copy antique knives, but they're made in the same vein. And you once you kinda get the measurements and the patterns and stuff, it doesn't take a whole there's there's not a whole lot of not creative go there's tons of there's ton of creative, you know, exercise going on, but, there's not how what am I trying to say here?

Bob DeMarco [00:45:09]:
Like, you don't have to reinvent the wheel at times.

Nick Bachtel [00:45:12]:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I think these knives are so timeless, so good looking, and, they just have a certain look that they're undeniably awesome. That's what it comes down to. They're so timeless. They're so Americana, and I can I can kind of put my own little touches like like this knife, little clip point Bowie knife? It's a mirror polish, but it has a little coffin handle. They didn't make any they made maybe 1 or 2 coffin handles in San Francisco that time period.

Nick Bachtel [00:45:46]:
This knife will be in the same within the same lines, but with sort of my own, you know, I love a coffin handle. It's sort of my own additions to it. You know?

Bob DeMarco [00:45:58]:
Your interpretation of this kinda question. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Hold hold that up so so we can take a look at that. So you're you're very much drawn to the high polish, I've noticed. Oh, yeah. Is is that just is that true, or is that because it's, integral to the kind of knife you're talking about?

Nick Bachtel [00:46:21]:
A little bit of both. So as much as I like kind of historical knives and stuff, I am a knife user. I had been a knife user for longer than a knife maker, and, the mirror polish on a high carbon steel knife is great. Water or blood or whatever you're doing, any moisture just, beads right off a mirror polish. And, you know, if you take a knife that has, like, a a fairly rough satin finish, you know, if you look at that surface microscopically, there's tons of little hills and valleys, and that catches moisture and that blade will rust, really quickly. A mirror polished high carbon steel knife. It'll patina, but mirror polishing literally smears the surface and, like, seals the surface of a knife blade. I don't I don't use stainless steel.

Nick Bachtel [00:47:20]:
I I don't like it. I'm sure that'll con conflict with lots of folks. I either love stuff or I hate it. I hate stainless steel. I like knives, high carbon steel knives that patina and tell a story. And all of those old knives, they they tell a story and the stuff I make, you know, I love seeing a crazy mirror polish Bowie knife that has gone through somebody using it and has a patina and tells a story. I I love that. That's why I make knives.

Nick Bachtel [00:47:49]:
You know? But, yeah, the the mirror polish is functional, and it's it's undeniably awesome. It looks too good. People pick it up and it catches light and reflection, and, they suck to get pictures of. You know, it's hard to get that reflection right and but in your hand, people like shiny things. And that's you

Bob DeMarco [00:48:13]:
were you were showing a a a special tool that you used to get that mirror polish. You you wanna show that?

Nick Bachtel [00:48:20]:
Yeah. Yeah. So, we'll talk some more about the old machinery, but one of the things that I I really like to do is learn about the old techniques that they used, you know, back in the 18 seventies or in the 19 100, and bring them back today and try to replicate those techniques because those guys back then knew how to make knives and make a lot of knives and make knives really well. And I think we've lost a lot of that to, you know, a a 2 by 72 bell grinder is so easy and convenient. We've lost a lot of really cool technology to conveniency, if that's a word. Anyways, this is one of my it's called a glazed wheel, which is what my friends in the UK, like in Sheffield, they still use these, but they don't talk about them. This is a 10 inch soft cushion wheel that you paint the outside edge. It's like a it's a buffing wheel.

Nick Bachtel [00:49:21]:
You paint the outside edge in hide glue, and then you roll that glue edge in emery or aluminum oxide abrasive and make a polishing wheel. So, you know, they have polishing wheels with different polishing compounds and stuff. Those are usually really fine. This, I mean, this one is a 280 grit, and it will remove material and, this is a fairly low loose sewn wheel, and it it it smooths a knife grind and makes, like, the perfect convex slight, slight convex grind, smooth things over so well, better than any modern, like, you know, if you wanna make a convex ground blade, guys will use a rotary platen. And I have a rotary platen, and it's great for some things, but knives, like, a flat on a knife, These these are better. These you can do you can do some really cool things with these, and you can get polishing wheels in all different kinds of, densities, like different stitch, you know, spiral sewn or a loose sewn like this. Paint that high glue on there, you can and it's crusty looking. It's like sandpaper on a wheel.

Nick Bachtel [00:50:46]:
Yeah. And, it gets really hard. I just made this one. It might need to set up a little bit more. And then it's like a grinding stone, but then you break the surface. You can hear it kinda cracking a little bit. Yeah. And, it softens the face of that polishing wheel, and, you just get the smoothest grinds with it.

Nick Bachtel [00:51:13]:
It's it's it was like a a a an moment when I actually made them and figured out because there's a few Smiths in, Sheffield, England who use these. And I think guys use in America, they're called setup wheels in, like, automotive factories. So when when they make a bumper on, like, a bus or something, you have all these, like, not grind marks, but, tooling marks from where they bend and stuff like that, and you wanna smooth those out. These wheels, they still use today in factories and stuff. They're really great for smoothing things out and getting not perfectly flat. Perfectly flat is the enemy of a good knife. Smooth things out and get a nice convex grind on a knife. They smooth out a bumper with one of these wheels, and, they leave a a great finish, and they're super cool, but nobody knows about them.

Nick Bachtel [00:52:12]:
I think guys make them in factories, and that that knowledge stays in the factory. It's not it's not like a it's like it's not an industry secret necessarily. I don't think it's hit the, like, hobbyist knife maker knife making world, really. Back in the day, that's what they used to do, and they used to use, leather wheels to polish knives. Kinda similar to this wheel. I like felt wheels, and those are pretty common for sharpening. But you can kinda do the same thing with some different polish array compounds and, like, it's basically grit and glue just like that. And I mean that's how I got this blade has a fantastic mirror polish on it.

Nick Bachtel [00:52:57]:
It's still not even all the way there. I mean, you can you can see. This was done on a felt wheel with some of that polishing compound, not, you know, not a not a 2 by 72 grinder like, you know, a lot of people use. Just taking the old techniques and using using the old techniques in the modern age to make stuff that's, you know, fantastic. That's it's so cool. I I I love it.

Bob DeMarco [00:53:34]:
Show us the hammer that you made and that you forged.

Nick Bachtel [00:53:37]:
Oh, yeah. Kinda in the same thing like a lost a lost technology. Look at that lump. That is a Sheffield style cutler's hammer. And this is one that I forged, off of some some pictures and measurements that a friend in England sent me of his originals and it is it's like a dog's head hammer. Okay. Camera's over here. It's a dog's head hammer.

Nick Bachtel [00:54:04]:
It weighs £4, and all of the weight is out. You know? I can literally stand this up on my anvil, and it'll just sit there. But it's a very weight forward hammer. It like I said, it weighs about £4. But this thing, it it swings so hard, and it moves steel like magic. Like, it really boom. I I I don't even know how to describe it. You gotta use it just to you know?

Bob DeMarco [00:54:36]:
Well, is this something that you make for other makers or would make for other makers?

Nick Bachtel [00:54:40]:
Yeah. I would. I I've made a couple of them. I sent one to Hawaii to my friend Neil Kamimura.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:48]:
Oh, yeah.

Nick Bachtel [00:54:48]:
He's the coolest. Yeah. He has one of them. I think that might be the only one out there. But I have that one and this one. Yeah. But, they're not very common. You can find them, like, antique through antique dealers sometimes, but they're, like, $500 because they're so sought after, and they're very similar to, like, a file cutters, hammer.

Nick Bachtel [00:55:13]:
Those Sheffield made everything steel, and they figured out the best tools to make files or to make knives. Like, there's a video on YouTube of some 80 year old guy using a hammer probably bigger than this that looks just like it to forge pocket knife blades that are this big. Wow. And just not a single miss hit. Just years years years of reps. Just in insanity. That's that's the kind of craftsman that I wanna be. You know?

Bob DeMarco [00:55:41]:
He's got a giant right forearm, I bet.

Nick Bachtel [00:55:44]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Boom. Be some little like Sheffield. Head down to the old cut and do my hammering. Yeah. Like, oh, yeah. He's he's so cool, man.

Nick Bachtel [00:55:56]:
I love seeing stuff like that. I wish more of it was still around, but, you know.

Bob DeMarco [00:56:01]:
So, we're we're about up up to our hour, but I I wanted to ask you this question. Okay? You're you're a modern day guy with a modern day business doing making knives in a in an old in in a tradition using traditional methods and such. What kind of advice would you give to, knife makers that are where you were 8 years ago, and they're trying to figure out what their identity is and what and how they're supposed to do a business. Do you have any advice?

Nick Bachtel [00:56:32]:
Mhmm. Yes. I'll I'll ramble on this too. You need I think in any kind of creative endeavor to get good and be successful at it, you need to produce your best work and do it often. You need to have reps, and it's like you need to have not hundreds of knives, but you need to put out lots of your best work and keep going and keep going. Spend time in the shop. It's gonna suck if you're gonna fail, but, you know, you have to fail more than I have failed more times than people have tried. Right? You people you know, that's a pretty common thing.

Nick Bachtel [00:57:17]:
But it's true. I I my San Francisco Bowie knives, I've I've finished maybe 10, maybe a dozen of them, but I have a bucket of maybe 50 blades that just weren't good enough. Throw it in the bucket. Tomorrow's a new day. Get good. Get better. Put more time and more reps. And then I should have finished a lot of those knives, but I didn't.

Nick Bachtel [00:57:44]:
Finish knives and get them out there and get them in front of people and then get back to it. You need you need reps. You need reps of completing things and putting them out there. Focusing like, you wanna get good at grinding a knife? Just grind little mild steel knives. Grind a 100 of them, then throw them away to develop that skill. Then start making knives and do the very best that you can and put it out there in the world, and then start that process all over again and and just keep doing reps.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:24]:
Is this sort of a perfection is the enemy of the good kind of thing? Like, like, are you suggesting a lot of people don't put the knives out there because they're worried it's not their best

Nick Bachtel [00:58:36]:
work? No. My headphone went out. So we're just gonna we're just gonna let her ride. We're I think Robo's finished up. So, I am a perfectionist. I think it's I have crazy OCD. Like I said, I have a bucket of blades because the the stamp was just a little bit too out of, you know, out of plum. That's crazy.

Nick Bachtel [00:58:57]:
I'm being crazy. Those should have been finished. And, like, those knives would have been good money, whatever. Do the best that you're capable of doing realistically. You don't don't let perfection slow you down. I have done that, and I regret it. Do, you know, let's say the very best 10 per do the best the best you can consistently and put them out there in the world and get them in front of people. I when I started knife making, I the first time I ever went to a knife show was, like, 2023.

Nick Bachtel [00:59:35]:
So I've been up here in Northeast Ohio making my knives, just being a nut, crazy OCD perfectionism. And then I finally went to blade show, and I saw the knives that other people were putting out, and it kind of settled my perfectionism a little bit because I go, oh, this is I'm not looking at a photograph of a knife. It's easy to get a a good photograph of a knife and make it look perfect. But to see it in your hand, that's when you can see not mistakes, but characteristics of, oh, this is what this maker thinks is acceptable. Well, there was a lot of things that I saw that I wouldn't think that, you know, I wouldn't let leave my shop. And then, you know, the more you see, you're gonna go, maybe maybe my knives are better than the average knife or better than, you know, a hobby maker, better than you know, maybe maybe I got something here. And you just keep that going and it's reps, man. Just put reps reps in the shop.

Nick Bachtel [01:00:39]:
You know? I feel bad for guys who work a full time job and can only get a couple hours in a week. Yep. You got I mean, you gotta live out there, man, and just experiment and try, and don't be afraid to fail. Don't be afraid to waste money either. I I don't have a whole ton of money, but I and I've wasted a lot of it, but I have learned so much. You and you learn through doing, like, the reps out there. YouTube videos are great. They don't teach anything, and people think they get a a PhD from a YouTube video or something.

Nick Bachtel [01:01:17]:
A school of hard knocks. 8 and a half years.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:20]:
Well, that's that's great advice straight across the board whether you're a knife maker or not. Reps reps is it. Nick, thank you so much. Nick from the NM Backtell Forging Company, I really appreciate you joining me. We're gonna talk a little bit more for the for the patrons, but thank you so much for joining me. It's been a a blast.

Nick Bachtel [01:01:39]:
It's been a pleasure. I hope I I know I've rambled so much, but, hey,

Bob DeMarco [01:01:43]:
that's just who I am. Hey. Rambling about knives ain't rambling at all, sir.

Nick Bachtel [01:01:47]:
That's it.

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Bob DeMarco [01:02:07]:
There he goes, ladies and gentlemen. Nick of the NM Baktell knife, forging company. Really looking forward to getting one of his knives in hand, and, hopefully I didn't even ask. Hopefully, we get to see him at Blade Show, this year or next year, and, we'll be able to make that possible. I, myself, am going to invite myself over, next time I'm in Northeast Ohio. Alright. Thanks for joining me on this podcast. To Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DeMarco saying until next time, don't take dull for an answer.

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