The Knife Junkie Podcast is the place for knife newbies and knife junkies to learn about knives and knife collecting. Twice per week Bob DeMarco talks knives. Email Bob at theknifejunkie@gmail.com; visit https://theknifejunkie.com.
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Announcer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob, the knife junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:16]:
Welcome to the knife junkie podcast. I'm Bob DeMarco. On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with Patrick Shipley of APOC survival tools. APOC survival tools is a brand of cass iveria, a con a company I've been familiar with for years ever since my ancient Greek phase in the early two thousands. Recently, I bought the SMATCH IT designed by Mike Wallace because I've had a love affair with that design ever since childhood, but finally, I found an attainable version. After seeing how great the knife was and making a video, Patrick Shipley of APOC reached out to me, and a new love affair has formed with APOC survival tools. We'll talk about APAC. I should say APAC, not APAC.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:02]:
We'll talk about APAC with Patrick and find out, about Casiberia. But first, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, and hit the notification bell. Also, if you'd like to, listen to this show and download it and have it on the go, you can do so by downloading it on your favorite podcast app. If you'd like to help support the show, you can do so by, becoming a patron at Patreon. Quickest way to do that is to scan the QR code on the screen or head on over to the knifejunkie.com/patreon. Again, that's the knifejunkie.com/patreon.

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Bob DeMarco [00:01:51]:
Patrick, welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast.

Patrick Shipley [00:01:54]:
Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:57]:
My pleasure indeed. Hey, I wanna congratulate you, first and foremost on your recent on APOC's recent collaboration with Andrew Demko and Mike Wallace. You've got some heavy hitters in your corner.

Patrick Shipley [00:02:10]:
Well, the the irony of this is this is not a new thing. This has been going on for two years. That's how long we took to develop these knives. If you, ever have the chance to come by Cass, there's, like, two years worth of prototypes that have gone into making these knives. So it's, pretty exciting. For some

Bob DeMarco [00:02:33]:
reason, that actually makes it all seem better. The fact that it wasn't like, oh, we got Andrew and Mike. Let's let's rush something to market that you actually took time and, and prepared and made sure you had exactly the right combination of design materials, etcetera.

Patrick Shipley [00:02:50]:
Oh, yeah. There was there was a lot of back and forth, between us and them. Mike Wallace on the show, talked to him about having him come on and, we'll we'll have that later, but there was a lot of knives that went back and forth over a two year period. And we, I think they were probably, you know, they were content a lot more, than I was about some of the aspects because, you know, going from custom to production, there are some compromises that you have to make. But I was I I felt and the cast team felt like we could do a a whole lot better than what we what we had produced and then I think we finally after after about a year and a half, I think we finally got everything dialed in where we wanted it and, we hit the big green button and started production.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:50]:
Well well, a lot of, people have seen the Demko Bowie. I've shown this off a lot recently because this is, you know, I have a huge collection of knives. This is one I've actually used a lot over the past few weeks. We had a big Easter thing, a lot of people in town and stuff, and I had to clean up the whole area. And I ended up using that knife primarily, and, they've also seen this match it. But before we talk, and dig into APOC, let's talk about Cas Iberia. I I know them personally from, all of the really cool period and ethnic, tools and I mean, weapons, I should say, that they've produced over the years. Tell me about Casiberia and then how APOC came along.

Patrick Shipley [00:04:37]:
Well, Casiberia has cele is currently celebrating its fortieth year in the industry. It's had its humble beginnings as just an import company. Our founder, Barry Ross, you know, he lived in New York and was importing, different things from, you know, South Africa. And he very, very partnered with, a man from Spain named, Luis Gonzalez and they formed the company Casiberia, which is company American de Solisador del Liberia, which is American supply company in Spanish. And then they started importing moela knives, Denax, a sword line called our Gladius and it just kinda spawned from there. But, Casiberia really came to fame in the late nineties when they partnered with Paul Chin who started Hanway. And as of December of last year, the Hanwei factory closed because of obvious economic reasons, with all the things going on in China. So we're continuing that that brand with another factory there in Dalian, but, Hanwei was the brand that kinda catapulted, Cas into the stratosphere of the in the the legend of the, the sword world.

Patrick Shipley [00:06:01]:
So

Bob DeMarco [00:06:02]:
So what what what was the philosophy behind the products offered, and what were the products offered?

Patrick Shipley [00:06:08]:
I would love to sit here and say that, that there was a strategy, but I think between Barry and Paul, I think it was like, I think we could make this really cool sword. I I think I think when it started, it started out as at that, you have to understand at that particular time in the market, there was not a functional swords were very rare. A lot of the swords that Cass had at the time like Art Gladius, Armadurus Medievalists were made in Spain, but they were in essence wall hangers, as what we call them today. So when the 1,001 dash GT, the Shinto Katana, hit the market, it just and then all the other subsequent models that followed, it just exploded. So, you know, the the rest they say is history.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:04]:
Well, why was that? Is that because that was a more battle ready, more realistic, kind of sword?

Patrick Shipley [00:07:12]:
Well, it was definitely a high carbon blade is the big the fundamental difference. Differentially tempered, real hamon, you know, real tempered line and, it it you have to understand at that particular time in the world, those type, you know, that kind of quality of functional sore just was not accessible. And CAS Iberia made things accessible.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:39]:
Okay. Well, I I know that I've heard of well, Muela. I mean, when I was a kid, and, you know, into my, early teen years and such, I don't remember where I was seeing Moyla knives, but I know I wanted them. And actually recently, I was kind of lurking on eBay and found a couple of Moyla Bowies, and I haven't, I haven't, pulled the trigger yet, but I those always impressed me. They were always beautiful, and very real, not real, but, you know, very very much functional, knives used for hunting and camping, back then. But what were Paul Chen and Hanwei knives all about?

Patrick Shipley [00:08:20]:
Well, you have to understand Paul, in in a lot of ways, was kind of the creative guy. You know, he was the the visionary and he had a lot of ideas and dreams and things like that that he just wanted to to do. So, Barry was a little bit more methodical in thinking and I think a lot of, I think along the way as far as like the Rock Creek knives and those things, came about, at a during a time I was not with the company. You know, I was with the company from '99 till 02/2006, then I was gone until 2015, and then I came back in 2015. So there was the you know, I don't know if there was a logic there. I think they were just trying to they they had capabilities, and they wanted to push that knife dream that they had. So but a lot of times, it was very impulsive. I think I can really do something cool.

Bob DeMarco [00:09:26]:
Well, I love that because that's what we're all in this for in the first place that Certainly. We don't have to rely on swords for our day to day existence. Lucky you. Yeah. So these are luxury items for lack of a better term. These are things that we collect, that we love, but there's also something valuable in knowing that what you're getting is not just a wall hanger. It is something that could be used, And just the potential of that means something. When you go to the the Cas Iberia website, you see it broken down into several categories.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:02]:
There are medieval weapons, pull Chinese swords and pull arms, katanas, and and all of that. Does does the Cast Iberia, catalog kind of cover the world in terms of ancient weapons?

Patrick Shipley [00:10:19]:
I don't think there's I don't think that we feel compelled to make every kind of sword that there is. There are plenty of swords in the market. I think what our goal is is to produce the best quality sword that, a lot of times is trying to fill a niche or a need. I think in the beginning, cause I was there at the beginning, I think it was just proving ourselves, proving the brand, you know, showing capability. Today, it's a little different. Back then, in the olden days, we were creating markets. You know, there were there were there were things that the market didn't know it needed, and we we created those. And as time moved on and competition came into the market and markets developed, it became a different thing.

Patrick Shipley [00:11:18]:
But as as far as what we do today, you know, we do look to making things for not only collectors, but for martial artists. We look at making things that are practical and utilitarian. But it's gotta be something that is something we can do well. So we don't feel compelled compelled to make every type of Chinese sword in the market or every Japanese sword in the market or every medieval sword in the market. There's a there's there's a lot of good swords in the market that fill those needs, but we we typically want to do something that is unique.

Bob DeMarco [00:11:58]:
To what extent do you think markets kind of bond up around you, around CAS, I believe?

Patrick Shipley [00:12:05]:
Well, I think certainly in as far as, the Japanese sword market, which really honestly launched CAS, I think giving that accessibility to the handmade high carbon steel traditionally forged and made katana, I think I don't I don't know what other company you could credit with that because, you know, CAS, you know, started it. I mean, with, like, the with those early models, I I don't I mean, other than the the wall hangers that were coming out of Spain and, you know, and some swords out of The Philippines, but you were not going to we're we're not going to get, you know, a traditional handle wrap, you know, with the wood core, with raised skin, and Japanese cotton. You were gonna get some sort of facsimile. Yeah. So, and then on the European side, you know, Cass started making the reenactment swords like the SH two thousand and forty six and two thousand and forty seven, you know, with the blunted edges. That was something that, I think you could probably make an argument maybe Museum Replicas had had had a hand in that as well. But as far as the Japanese market, I think Cass is the one that, launched that, in my opinion, and I've been in the industry over twenty years now. I might be a little biased.

Bob DeMarco [00:13:37]:
Maybe just a touch. But you guys have, I mean, I I've been by the cast Iberia, display at Blade Show. It is so cool. I mean, it it and it and there's a variety of swords there, and and I know you're very, I mean, I didn't meet you personally, I don't think, but, it's a very welcoming environment, and there's such a variety of stuff. And you're kind of centrally located. I mean, we're on the left side in the in the big marketplace, and so I I urge everyone who's going to Blade Show to definitely, seek out the Cas Iberia, section just to kinda check out the work and really see what it's all about. But what I have the most experience with is the APOC line. Tell me how APOC and, before before I ask and before you go off, I just want people to know, that this is what I'm talking about.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:35]:
A lot of people loved this double edged Smatch It. It is so cool. A a take on the Fairbairn, classic, Smatch It design. A weapon, first tool, second from World War well, actually, it came out in World War one, but kind of popularized more in World War two with elite units. And then, got the Mike Wallace Bowie here. And then the only people I know making a Yatagan, which is one of my absolute favorite blades of all time, this is the waning moon Yatagan. So tell us about APOC and how it came about and what the philosophy is. Tell us all about it.

Patrick Shipley [00:15:18]:
Well, there I was, staring at the stars. No. Just kidding. Love it. Basically, APOC came about because it was needed. If I had a dollar for every phone call that went like this thanks for calling Casa Iberia. This is Patrick. How can I help you? Yes.

Patrick Shipley [00:15:44]:
I need to buy a sword. Oh, you need to buy a sword. Why do you need to buy a sword? Well, you know, just in case. Just in case to what? You know, expecting to be attacked by ninjas, the English are gonna be doing a cavalry charge across your front lawn? You know, what what's the just in case scenario? So so APOC came about basically for those who want to own a sword, a real sword, a functional sword, but they don't want to deal with all the, care and maintenance of a real sword, like a real katana. I was, owning a real katana is like having a pet. You just can't stick it in the closet and forget about it. And people do and they're shocked that that carbon steel rusts. So when I get that phone call, I say, you want you want wanna look at APOC.

Patrick Shipley [00:16:46]:
Well, you know, it's like, well, what sword do I need? Well, how do you envision yourself? Are you a samurai? Are you a medieval warrior? What's what's your what's your motif that you're going for in your underwear when you're attacking the the burglar in your house? What tell me what that looks like. Well, no. Don't tell me what that looks like. Just just, you know, give me what, you know, what are you what are you what are you wanting? Tell me tell me what kind of sword I gotta put you into today, you know. So, yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, it's, yeah, it's a bit of a quay on words, you know. We joke that, you know, it's for the end of the world, but in reality, it is what it is. It's a it's a no frills functional blade that you can kinda just forget about. But it is real, it will cut, we have some great designers, Angus Trim.

Patrick Shipley [00:17:33]:
If you're in the sword world, you you probably heard of Angus Trim. Angus has designed most of the sword models. And, you know, as far as our knife category went, you know, we we needed, you know, we needed some people who had some real nice vision. You know, I'm a knife guy, but I'm not, you know, my finger's not always on the pulse and I don't really care, you know. I have I have what I like, but that may not necessarily be what the world wants. So, when the opportunity came to work with Mike and Andrew, we jumped all over it.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:12]:
How did that look? Did you reach out to them or how did that, how did

Patrick Shipley [00:18:16]:
that I was I was not, I think well, if you it depends on whose story you go with. We've always known each other, you know, when they were at Cold Steel. Of course, everybody in the cutlery industry knows each other. It's a small, incestuous little group. Everybody talks. You know, something, you know, it's it's the the greatest little, you know, gossip corner that there is in the industry. Everybody's giggling and gossiping, but, but, you know, the way, you know, Andrew put it was, you know, we've always had mutual respect for each other and he had always admired what Cass had done and I think at the end and him and Mike both just thought we were, you know, good people and it would be a great opportunity to work with. Of course, you know, coal still sold and that opportunity there for them to work with us opened up and, you know, that's just what they say is that.

Patrick Shipley [00:19:18]:
I don't I think it was, you know, it's that blade show. You you run into everybody and you just have these conversations where it's like, well, maybe we ought to do something together. Well, why don't we do something together? Well, I don't know. You tell me why don't we? Well, actually, we not. But I will say the first time I spoke to Mike when I when I took over product development, when all this stuff really got going, and I and I said, well, Mike, what are you passionate about? And he said, well, you know, I I like this, this, and this. Where Mike and I really connected and it made the most sense to us is we both have passions for mo have have the passion, I say, for modern interpretations of historical weapons. And that's kind of Cas's thing is historical weapons. So the modern interpretation part perfectly fit what we're doing with the APOC brand.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:14]:
Oh, yeah. I mean, most definitely. And, you know, I could see how the fact that you have the sword line, I'm not sure. Was this designed by Angus Trim? The

Patrick Shipley [00:20:24]:
No. That one was not.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:27]:
Okay. I could see how the sword line, could need, a smaller, you know, knife line. And I love the idea of the in the historical interpretation because I said as I said up front, I've always loved the Smatch It. And I know Boker made one for a short while that was, hard to come by and expensive, and I never got that. And then, you know, I've I have some historical blades that my brother has gotten me, but, a smatch it has never come my way. And then when I saw this come out, I I first saw it at Choirboys cutlery video, and I just about lost my mind. It it's one of the few times where I I just I, like, stopped the video and ordered it, sight unseen not sight unseen. I saw it, but without knowing much about APOC at all and, you know, just seeing the knife and seeing it in Scab's hands, and he liked it, and, I trust him.

Bob DeMarco [00:21:24]:
And, that's what led me to that. So I love that idea of the historical interpretation done modern. I know that Cold Steel, you know, kinda built their brand to a large extent on that concept as well. So I could see how, you know, Andrew Demko fits in well, how Mike Wallace fits in well with all.

Patrick Shipley [00:21:47]:
Certainly. But I have to ask, at what point in the video did you have to the guy actually wax himself in the head?

Bob DeMarco [00:21:53]:
Oh, no. No. It was it was before that. It was from a short.

Patrick Shipley [00:21:56]:
So it

Bob DeMarco [00:21:57]:
was, like, a minute long. I just got this, and I was like, oh my god. That's a smash it. If that's double edged, I'm stopping and ordering. And it's double edged, and I stopped and ordered. I'm just curious. His his friend, in in the long form video, hit himself and bounced back and but, you know, to me, that's just a testament of how good the knife is. It's gotta be dangerous enough to, you know, cut a scalp.

Patrick Shipley [00:22:19]:
Yeah. I feel I feel so bad that I'm like, it's got a warning label on the box. What can I say?

Bob DeMarco [00:22:24]:
Yeah. Yeah. And it's a full double edge. And, actually, I gotta say, something about the design of this, it's got a pretty big handle. I have medium sized hands, and it fits my hand perfectly. It is so comfortable. And I also feel like someone with gigantic mitts, it would also fit their hand comfortably, like, really nicely. It also reminds me a little bit of a truncated, modernized Gladius a little bit, you know, with that with that promo and everything.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:58]:
Tell me a little bit about the r and d and the process that went into making this.

Patrick Shipley [00:23:03]:
Well, like I said, it was a two year process. So, wow. I don't know really know where to begin there. There you know, the the nuance of of knife making is very different from that of sword making. And, Frenchie Gin with, our friends over at Dragon King are the ones who produce those knives for APOC. And when we were going through the process of putting these things together, we we started with we have to set a standard. There there that we do on everything. So before we even talked about the specific knives, we had to talk about setting up a new set of standards.

Patrick Shipley [00:23:52]:
Of course, they they produced two or three knives prior, to that the wayward camper, the trench buoy, and the, and the Kukri, if you consider that a knife. So there were some, smaller things in the line that are knife related, but what I wanted to make sure that we had was knife standards and parameters. So that's kinda where we started. We we're talking about when we talk about things like where the handle slab comes perfectly in rounds into the tang, you know, that the, oh, the screws and everything and all the holes, everything's countersunk. You know, lines. Lines are very important. You know, talking about making sure there are no hard edges and the you know, making sure that, you know, wherever the hand touches that it's always comfortable. These types of things are the thing, you know, and if you are a knife person, there's nothing worse than having to use an uncomfortable knife.

Patrick Shipley [00:24:58]:
And, you know, when you especially something like a machete, like the Smash It or the Yet Again or anything that's big that you're gonna have to start, you know, whacking away at something with. You want it to be comfortable in the hand. You know, I knew that they could make blades. Blades were making the blades were not was not the issue. But it was making sure that we're not applying sword standards to knives. That's just basically the gist. I don't know. But the rest of it was, you know, the a lot of back and forth was the, you know, get we gotta get this line right, going from the from the end of the knife all the way down to the, you know, all the way down the blade to the tip, that kind of stuff.

Patrick Shipley [00:25:43]:
And there's there's there's prototypes at the building that have got, like, Sharpie marks on them and, like, lines through them and and things like that. And they and I give I give the boys credit. They did an excellent job on it. It took a little longer than we wanted. You know, we we had there's two blade shows that went by. Broke my heart, but I wanted to we wanted it to come out right the first time. Is there some room for improvement? Yep. We've got some room for improvement.

Patrick Shipley [00:26:15]:
There's a couple of little things that we could probably do a little bit better, but that's gonna be in the next production run. There's a bit, you know, assuming there's the next production run with all the stuff going on in the world.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:28]:
Well, actually, I I don't need the answer, but that that's interesting that you say there there are things we could do next time. I don't know what those are right now, and and maybe that's because, I'm very enamored with these. The the one that I've like I said earlier, the one that I've really used, the others I've appreciated and I, you know, I I'm a long time colleague guy, so I like to do and stuff with them. But this one is, you know, the, the Demco Bowie is the one that I've actually, worn around outside. By the way, oddly light, but but I mean, not oddly light, but it's a nice heavyweight knife, but it carries so easily. I have the, I have the pec lock at an angle. I have I keep it on my back or on my side for, like, a cavalry draw, and, you know, whenever I'm carrying this, it's out in the back. I've got light shorts on.

Bob DeMarco [00:27:27]:
Somehow, this thing just carries beautifully. But what I love about this knife, it's a saber grind in case you're just listening. It's a saber ground Bowie blade about, seven and a half inches, but it's got a nice long handle, like about five inches, five and a half inches, something like that and, yeah, about five and a half inches. And for me and my medium sized hand, it gives me options. I can be right up here using that jimping with the thumb on the back of the blade, or I can come back here and use it for this kind of chopping motion and I've done that a lot with this knife. There's still some schmutz on there, I believe. Maybe I cleaned it off a little bit but, and it just chewed through everything. Vines, I got tons of vines here.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:16]:
I had some saplings and some cedar limbs that this took care of and not a not a single, you know, false note with the edge or anything. And you mentioned ergonomics. This is so comfortable. Well, tell us about this.

Patrick Shipley [00:28:37]:
Well, what it's funny that you're talking about, you know, the how you the different things that you used it. And if you know if you don't know, you know, Mike and Andrew are both childhood friends. And, when I think about that knife in particular, I can see a young Andrew Demko out in the woods, them doing all the knife stuff together. And and that was a lot of the the logic behind the making of that knife. And I I can't take credit for it because it's Andrew's design. But, you know, and that was the thing, you know, that he talked about and that when when when we were meet when we met at Blade or we talked on the phone, he was like, well, you know, you can do this with it. You can do that with it. And, you know, he is a practical knife user.

Patrick Shipley [00:29:24]:
So he knows how to design a knife for all the different field things that you need to do. I don't know how to say I don't know what the correct terminology there is but, you know, he knows the field tech, you know, that you you're gonna wanna use with a buoy knife, you know, and the Wallace buoys are different beasts altogether, you know. It's it's a little bit more choppy, you know. It's a it's a it's a it's a beast, you know, whereas the the Demco buoy, it's a it's a separate thing all its own. It's it's a all around great camp knot.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:57]:
Well, before we move away from the the Demco, bro, he's funny thing is is, you know, Andrew's a big guy. He's got giant hand. And, you know, I'm sure I'm sure the way we engage with the with the handle is different, but but, obviously, equally useful. He's he's not gonna design something that doesn't feel great for his hand. So it's kinda funny to think that, someone with huge hands designed this and yet someone with medium sized hands, man, I love this thing. It's like this, this the end of this little partition here is right where my forefinger locks in and I get a perfect kinda drumstick action with it. I I love this knife.

Patrick Shipley [00:30:37]:
No. It was I mean, this was, for me, this was a labor of love to make sure that we got the these knives because I have the I mean, I still have the original the original originals Oh, yeah. From Andrew and Mike, at at Cas and, you know, and that was the that was the standard I went by. And I would pull those knives out, lay them down. Here we go again. I mean, there's probably a dozen PDF files with probably hundreds of photos and illustrations where I'm going back and forth, you know, with the the prototype and the original. You know, you know, just, you know, pages of instructions. It's it's probably one of my proudest moments in my cast career was to get to get these knives out into the market.

Bob DeMarco [00:31:41]:
Well, the the Wallace, let's talk about this for a second, longer blade. I think it's, what, nine and a half inches, 10 inches? I mean, we've been talking about ergonomics for a few minutes now. This thing, I mean, it's it fits like a glove. It is so comfortable in hand, and then you have this big finger choil up here that's all radiused and and just feels great in hand. And then something I love, and maybe this is what you were talking about in terms of being, choppy, is that it's got this downward angle to the blade, kind of like a Filipino sword, where it's not recurved, but you kinda get that effect. The forward portion of the blade is already digging into the material by the time your hand gets there. I I'm very impressed by this knife.

Patrick Shipley [00:32:29]:
To me, this is a knife that you would see somebody pull out in an Arnold Schwarzenegger or a, Sylvester Stallone movie. That's ex you know, I grew up, you know, watching Rambo and, you know, Schwarzenegger movies and I'm like, this is the knife that those guys are gonna pull out in that scene to to to nail the bad guy to the wall.

Bob DeMarco [00:32:49]:
Come on, Bennett. Let's party. Yeah. Yeah. So the the ergonomics on this handle are phenomenal. Different from the the Demko has more of a tool feel. This has a, I don't know, melt in the hand feel.

Patrick Shipley [00:33:07]:
We had a lot of discussions, the three of us, over that knife. The particular, you know, particular talking about the not not just necessarily the feel of it, but how you would use it. I mean, we had a lot there was a lot of back and forth on that, you know, and making sure that, you know, Mike's a very hands on guy and, he had a I think he had a particular vision for what he wanted and I felt like it in this project, it was my job to make sure that their vision materialized in the product.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:44]:
So how do how how would you characterize how he thought it should be used?

Patrick Shipley [00:33:50]:
Well, I wanna save some of that for Mike. Okay.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:52]:
I

Patrick Shipley [00:33:53]:
wanna get Mike. Alright. I I don't wanna steal any of his thunder, but, it was quite hilarious, I will say that. The conversations were kinda funny. Because not just not the fact of what they were talking about, you know, it was just how watching those two interact with each other. Let me just say it that way. You know?

Bob DeMarco [00:34:12]:
This one to me, of the two of them, of this or the Demko Bowie, this one to me is more weapon y, if that's a if that's a word. And, you know, I'm always kinda looking through that lens. But to me, this is, you know, this this is a bit more weaponry, and you kind of mentioned, that this would fit in to a, Schwarzenegger or Stallone movie. So maybe, intuitively, you know, you feel that you feel that too. Yeah. I'm I'm really excited about this one. I'm gonna do a close-up video of this one, real shortly as I as I will with the, Yategan, which I'm impressed you guys make a Yategan. But so, ergonomics, I know on your, web page, one of the one of the defining qualities of an of an APOC survival tool is its ergonomics.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:06]:
Tell me about the importance of ergonomics.

Patrick Shipley [00:35:09]:
Well, as I as I said before, there's nothing worse than having to use something that is uncomfortable in the hand. And, you know, that that's across the board as far as swords and knives and things of that nature. To me, the the feel is always the first thing that I notice. When I it's just I I in the first three or four second, I know if I like something or not just basically on how it feels. Looks is one thing, you know. You know, you can kinda like I like I like I like a lot of how certain things look, but I'm always disappointed when I get them in my hands sometimes because it's it's obviously that they did not think the the the they didn't think it all the way through, you know. It looked cool, but it feels terrible. I'm I'm a machete guy.

Patrick Shipley [00:36:07]:
I love machetes and that is, like, the number one thing with me and machetes is it's gotta be comfortable. And any type of big knife, I'm a big knife guy, it's it's gotta be comfortable in the hand or I just don't wanna have anything to do with it.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:23]:
So that leads me to another Demco project with APOC, and that's that crazy looking spike cleaver. What is that all about? You're talking about the Rhino Hybrid. Rhino Hybrid. Yes.

Patrick Shipley [00:36:36]:
That is straight up Andrew Dymco. One thing that I love about a pot is that we can bring the weird and the unique into the market. And, I it it is it is a bushcraft knife. That's there that is the sole purpose behind that piece is to be able to take place of multiple things, you know. I'm not a bushcrafter, but I've read books. No. I've I've I've read a lot of books on bushcrafting. I've also read books on golf and fly fishing.

Patrick Shipley [00:37:17]:
Academically, I can tell you all about it, but as far as practical application, it's a whole another ballgame. But, hopefully, we're gonna have some videos soon. I've got some out in the market. I've got some riders for Blade who've got these in their hand that are as a, pardon my language, is that they said they're going to bushcraft the hell out of it. So I'm looking forward to see what the the the ringer that they they put them through. And hopefully, sometime in this over the summer, we're gonna start seeing some articles coming out into the market about it. But, you know, I I, I like the fact that it's different. It is it is very if you've ever got a hand got your hands on one, it it's it's like butter in your hands.

Patrick Shipley [00:38:04]:
It looks like a cleaver but it is it is something that you would want to take with you out into the woods and use.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:11]:
Well, you know, there's there's been this huge trend in folding knives for, I don't know, going on eight years maybe of cleavery style blades, very, you know, kinda squared off folders, but we haven't seen much of this in the bushcraft or the the fixed blade world, and here it is. It it it really does kind of, evoke a meat cleaver, but again, it's got that downward angle. It's got a continuous belly and a downward angle, so it's gonna be a hell of a chopper. It's like a heavy It looks like a heavy duty machete, meets a hatchet, meets a spiked tomahawk. I don't know, that spike on the back, I don't even know what that's for but I I love it.

Patrick Shipley [00:38:58]:
Well, and if you were to ask Andrew what you would basically do is after you got through whacking something like a log or something, you can just put it into the end of it and carry it.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:08]:
Okay. It's like an, like a like a gas in fishing or something.

Patrick Shipley [00:39:12]:
Yep. Exactly. It can double as a gas. It it it it's a Swiss army knife, but that might not Swiss army brand. Let's just make sure we understand that. But it's it's got a lot of different functions, you know, you can baton with it and I and I tried to get some very good photos just to show you how thick that blade is. And it it can take a beating. So I I am very anxious to see people put this thing through through the test and see what it they come up with.

Patrick Shipley [00:39:45]:
Of course, you're more if you wanna take a swing at it yourself, you're more than welcome to.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:48]:
I absolutely would. And to me, it it also has an appropriate amount of menace. I mean, everything, you know, in my opinion, like, what I like, my taste, I should say. You know, a little bit of menace is good, and that one, it's kind of got it in spades because it's not something you're used to seeing, but it's actually a very, very it seems like a very, very practical tool.

Patrick Shipley [00:40:11]:
Well, and that is the point. That's the point of APOD. You know, it I I have fun with the marketing of it. I I love the tongue in cheek stuff about the end of the world and all that and and that gives me, you know, forty hours a week, something to giggle at and and make my life happy. But but in at the end of the day, it it it is a serious utilitarian brand. It is not it's it there are no fantasy pieces in a pot.

Bob DeMarco [00:40:40]:
And, actually, I mean, you know, you might be a little bit tongue in cheek, but at the same time, it's always on people's mind in the modern age. You know, so it it is a a smart angle for marketing of, no nonsense utilitarian tools. It it just kinda makes sense. Why not call a spade a spade and and and and say out loud what everyone's thinking?

Patrick Shipley [00:41:04]:
Yeah. I I I I can't disagree. You know, personally, APOC, to me is because when I came back in 2015 and we were we were basically developing brands, that were to our specs and things that we wanted. APOC was one of the three. The first one was Dragon King. Kingston Arms was right behind it, and then there was APOC. And to me, unless you're a sword aficionado or a knife aficionado and you really know your stuff about taking care of knives and stropping, you know, all the, you know, all the things that go with it. It it's really just your average Joe's kinda kinda knife or sword or ax.

Patrick Shipley [00:41:57]:
It's something you can just have in case you need it. But, it's the maintenance that that really takes the joy out of owning some stuff. I, you know, I I have a few swords. Somebody says everybody asks you, you must have a huge swords collection. I'm like, no. I don't. I wanna see a sword. I just go to work.

Patrick Shipley [00:42:22]:
You know, if I wanna play with a sword, I just gotta walk out to the warehouse or go down to the photo room, and I can get all my jollies out at work. But, you know, I I do have a few things. But, when it comes to knives, I have I have more knives than anything, believe it or not.

Bob DeMarco [00:42:38]:
Well, I got some other questions for you, but I know you have a couple of things in front of you. Show us what you've got.

Patrick Shipley [00:42:45]:
Well, I am I have a peculiar taste in knives. And I guess it's because I'm jaded in the industry because I've been in it so long. Well, I'll just show you one of my favorites. This is a Citadel knife. Citadel comes out of Cambodia. It is 100% handmade. If you've never seen or heard of Citadel knives, you're you're there's no tooling. There's no this is 100% handmade.

Patrick Shipley [00:43:19]:
This one is a limited edition that was done by, Frost Cutlery, I did with them. This is called the Leonardo. It's based off the hawk wing. This is the bone handled version. We do, another one in what's Triang, it's kind of like a rosewood, and you can find it on the cast site. I like, I'm a bone, I like bone. Most of the, you know, if I if I have a knife handle, whether it be a pocket knife or a buoy, it's either gonna it's gonna be some sort of smooth bone or stag or something like that. But this one was a unique one that they did.

Patrick Shipley [00:43:59]:
I convinced them to do it in bone. It was limited edition and, and I was fortunate to get one for myself. So

Bob DeMarco [00:44:07]:
Hold that up, hold that up close to the camera for a second so we can take a

Patrick Shipley [00:44:10]:
look at that. It's kinda washed out because it's my camera's like white, but you can probably see the, the the wood version of it on, our cast website.

Bob DeMarco [00:44:22]:
And now just, open it up so we can see the blade. Oh, that's a beautiful blade, kinda hawk hawk build blade with a super economic handle, all those, grooves.

Patrick Shipley [00:44:35]:
Yeah. It's not very EDC, but it is pretty, you know. I mean, I could, but, it's too precious to me to carry it out. I will, one of the it was kind of a running joke for years. We don't make this anymore, but, Conway used to make what was called the slider belt buckle. And then if you have one, it's it's rare, but I can't tell you how many times I got on a plane with this. No one ever noticed. Because I put it in, I just took my belt off, put it through the thing, and no one ever said anything.

Patrick Shipley [00:45:14]:
But it was, buffalo horn and silver inlay. Now what you did was, without recircumcising yourself, you had just basically slide it out.

Bob DeMarco [00:45:28]:
Oh, cool. And it opens up as you do so.

Patrick Shipley [00:45:31]:
Yeah. And the back was a mechanism. I don't know how many of these I've owned over the years and, how many times I I my my former when I was not with Cass, my former Cass, colleagues, how many times I came in with my warranty to re renew my my slider belt buckle. But, yeah, it's it's a it's it's one of my few pieces that I have. This one, the silver inlay is still somewhat in there. Some of it's come out over years and I've retired it. But it typically I got one other thing here somewhere. I got a Virgil England, piece that we did.

Patrick Shipley [00:46:14]:
I don't I'm not seeing it. I don't know. I may have put it back up.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:20]:
Oh. I'd like to

Patrick Shipley [00:46:21]:
be for next

Bob DeMarco [00:46:22]:
and I'm gonna make a note to check it out.

Patrick Shipley [00:46:24]:
They don't we don't we don't make them anymore. This is something that's been long gone. Oh, here it is.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:32]:
Oh, cool.

Patrick Shipley [00:46:34]:
This is the, Virgil England skate knife. We did, like, three knives. If you know anything about Virgil England wow. He's got these weird hot shapes. I can get it on camera. He was

Bob DeMarco [00:46:52]:
that looks like something out of Lord of the Rings or something.

Patrick Shipley [00:46:56]:
Well, when when Virgil came to Cass and he wanted to do some stuff, he had, like, this comic book idea behind this. And, to make a long story short, we just made the knives, but the the comic book never came or the whatever they had planned never came. Virgil had but this knife right here, it's just like, I love it.

Bob DeMarco [00:47:23]:
This fills the fisting. You've got two, sort of

Patrick Shipley [00:47:26]:
knucks Finger. Yeah. Deep out of the

Bob DeMarco [00:47:29]:
mouth blade looks like a fillet style blade almost.

Patrick Shipley [00:47:33]:
Yeah. The the, I think the whole, no pun intended, the point of it was is to poke holes in it. And, had the sheath with the copper. That was a big thing with him. He likes the copper type fittings, the leather handle wrap. But yeah, it's it's it's one of the one of the few pieces that I've collected over the year. I've actually been working at my desk. Just dropped a knife.

Patrick Shipley [00:48:02]:
I thought I had my I had a citizen's knife over here that Conway made. Hate to be boring, but most of the time I'm carrying around a little folder. I'm a lock back guy. You know, this is, this is a little this is a little frost knife with a partially serrated edge. I forget what this one is. They they there's several versions of it, but it's just a little lock back. I like a I'm a lock back guy. Yeah.

Patrick Shipley [00:48:26]:
Kinda my go to knife.

Bob DeMarco [00:48:28]:
It's a it's a utility. You you can't always be pulling out, a a, Virgil England, to open up boxes. I got a I got a quick question. Something I forgot to ask you about the eight knives, and that's the steel you use. You use this ninety two sixty steel. Mhmm. That's a steel I'd never heard of, and so far, my impressions are, it's awesome. Tell tell me about the steel and how you came to that.

Patrick Shipley [00:48:54]:
Well, I mean, it it's just a high you know, it's a high carbon spring steel. It's very forgiving. It just seems to work. I don't know how else to say it. It just works, and it delivers consistently across a lot of, sword sword styles and constructions. So, I mean, if it's not broke, don't fix it. And, that's just kinda where we were with it. But, 9260 just seems to be just reliable.

Patrick Shipley [00:49:30]:
Now we've had minimal minimal breakage, I will say that. I've only seen one or two that broke. Speaking of your yet again, in the one of the very first batches that we did, we had somebody who was doing a YouTube video and it broke And we were like, we wanna see what happened there. And we got it back and replaced it and, to make a long story short, you know, we we we analyzed it pretty close and we've not had any issues since. You know, and that's the thing, you know, with first production runs. You know, you gotta make sure, you know, you're you're really working out the bugs at that point when you're in a production type setup. So, and I I wasn't in charge of product development at that time, but, I was certainly on the periphery kinda paying attention to what all was going on there because it was, it was it was shocking. It was really shocking that, the way it the way that it broke was kinda weird, but, we've not had any issues since.

Patrick Shipley [00:50:40]:
Very very minimal breakage.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:43]:
Well, let me ask you this. How did you, personally, Patrick Shipley, get into knives and how did you find yourself at Kasiberia in the first place?

Patrick Shipley [00:50:55]:
Well, I'll try to make it brief. It was sheer accident, pure happenstance. I started my career, as a graphic designer for our local newspaper here in Chattanooga. And I worked on a real estate magazine. And it was like two weeks on, two weeks off. And I worked in the special projects department. So one day, as my real estate magazine was, of course, is in the late nineties, and they were still printing with film. So I was sitting there watching my film roll off and I was reading the classifieds because that's what you do with the newspaper.

Patrick Shipley [00:51:34]:
You sit and read the newspaper all day if you're not working. And I was scrolling through and I saw this ad for a marketing coordinator. You know, it was, you know, just like photography, graphic design, catalog, website maintenance, all these things. You know, very sounded very sophisticated. Bakewell, Tennessee, and I grew up in Seal Creek, which is Queen Bakewell and Saudi Days, and then there's Chattanooga. It's like a speck. I mean, you drop sixty seconds and you're through Bakewell and so I'm sitting here thinking, marketing coordinator, mom and pop's jams and quilts is going pro. So I sent my resume in as a complete goof.

Patrick Shipley [00:52:22]:
I did. I mean, this is how it this is how it happened. I sent my resume in completely as a joke. It was a goof. I had this some ridiculous salary request and, you know, all the things that I needed. And I mailed it off and I completely forgot about it. So about two or three weeks later, I get this phone call. It's like, yes.

Patrick Shipley [00:52:47]:
This is, George Ames from Casiberia. We received your resume and we would we would like for you to come in. I'm like, oh, I've gotta go see the mom and pop's jam and quilt operation. So I'm like, hey guys, I gotta go, you know, I'm like talking to my people at the newspaper, like, I gotta go check this out, I gotta see what's happening in Bakewell, and lo and behold, I roll up into this place. And I've been by this place probably a million times because I grew up in Silk Creek and we farm, like, I literally, like, I mowed hay across the street. You know, baled baled hay across the street. So I roll up in and I'm just like, what on earth is this place? And I'm like looking at at the time that, you know, Denix was a replica of guns, you know, non firing they had swords and I was just like, you gotta be kidding me. Of all the all the nerds that lived in this area, I didn't know this place existed.

Patrick Shipley [00:53:46]:
So, maybe a little end to kinda wrap it up, so it's like a, you know, I was completely I was just completely then I got to thinking about it and you're like, man, there was nobody that's gonna work at this place. Nobody in this area would ever, in their right mind, work at this place. So, it was like two or three days later, George calls me back. He says, we'd like for you to we'd like to offer you the job. I'm like, why not? Why not? So, that's kinda how it happened. Pure happenstance.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:16]:
That's awesome. I wish there was a sword placed down the street from me, man. Yeah.

Patrick Shipley [00:54:21]:
I love it. You know, it has been, quite the adventure. I'm I'm very grateful to Cass. Of course, I was very grateful to Frost Cutlery when I worked for them, when I needed a job. And, when Cass hired me back, they asked me to come back in 2015, I was I was like, man, they're gonna make the same mistake twice. Yeah. And, they deserve it. It's yeah.

Patrick Shipley [00:54:52]:
It was like, you you asked me. You called me, remember? You called me. But, no. It's it's it's funny because, I mean, we are really one big family. We we grew up together, you know, and we all watched our kids grow up together, you know. Of course, mine are still growing up, but, you know, it's we've been through a lot together and it I have the unique perspective of having been with the company during the golden days, the golden era of swords, And then when the company changed ownership and I got, you know, let go. And then I worked for Frost for, you know, nearly ten years. And then I got to see cast from the outside for a while.

Patrick Shipley [00:55:42]:
And then I got to come back in. So I have a little bit of a unique perspective on the company because I've been on the inside, on the outside, and back on the inside again. So, it is a unique place. You're never you you you can't just walk off the street and start working there. You have to be what I call cast made. And, I and I feel I'm a cast made person. I feel like the I've learned over the years, a lot of unique things about the industry from, you know, I've seen the market from the top up. I've seen the market from the bottom up Or I should say, I have seen the market from the top down.

Patrick Shipley [00:56:27]:
I've seen the market from the bottom up. Okay. When I was at Frost, it was a totally different situation. I was working with people like Bass Pro. I was working with Ace Hardware. I was working with, like, O'Reilly's and AutoZones and those types of companies and how they engaged with the, knife market and the cutlery market. And, I don't think Jim Frost, ever got the credit that he deserved, and maybe he will one day, you know, for creating, a lot of knives, a lot of knife customers for a lot of the the major brands because he started a lot of people out, you know, with their first knife collection. You know, it may be, you know, there everybody there's always an entry level somewhere and, I I would like to see the industry honor him one day for giving him the credit to to starting a lot of people off in knife collecting.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:27]:
So before I let you go, one last question. What what is in the offing for, APOC survival tools or Cas Iberia? What exciting things, are still to come or or what are you thinking in terms of, areas you want to move into?

Patrick Shipley [00:57:45]:
Well, I have five new APOC products in development for this year. I think four of them are nearing or are at the end of their production cycle. One, I think is finishing now. Our fundamental issue is that because of the trade war that's going on, we can't bring them in. No. That's the sad part. We can't bring them in. So there's five brand new products for APOC that are gonna be stuck sitting in a warehouse because of, the tariffs.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:38]:
Unfortunately. Well, I cannot wait to see what those are. I know you cannot wait to release them, to have them here and to sell them, get them in all of our

Patrick Shipley [00:58:47]:
hands.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:49]:
Man, that's bittersweet. But I I can't wait to see what they are because, I am so impressed with what I've seen so far with APOC, and I know that the brand is deeper than I know of so far. I can just tell by looking at the website, but what I've had in hand is awesome and I'm so proud. Like, there's a pride of ownership with these things and, I I think you've done an awesome job. So thank you so much.

Patrick Shipley [00:59:15]:
Thank you. Patrick. Well, thank you and, I hope that we can have this conversation again. I wanna thank you for allowing me to speak to your audience and I appreciate everybody who watched and taking the time to allow me to, tell you about Cass and EPOC and all the exciting things we got going on.

Bob DeMarco [00:59:35]:
The honor is ours, sir. Thank you.

Advertisement Announcer [00:59:38]:
Knife themed shirts, hoodies, mugs, water bottles, and more, theknifejunkie.com/shop.

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Bob DeMarco [00:59:48]:
There he goes, ladies and gentlemen. Patrick Shipley of Cas Iberia and APOC survival tools. Definitely, well, you can see them on Instagram, catch up with them there. But go check out the website, APOC survival. I know, Jim has put that up on screen. They have amazing knives, and they are very reasonably priced. You can you can get behind the wheel of one of these, and, you will be glad you did. I love the inspiration behind this one, by the way.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:21]:
Alright. Thanks for watching. For Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DeMarco saying, until next time, don't take dull for an answer.

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