The Knife Junkie Podcast is the place for knife newbies and knife junkies to learn about knives and knife collecting. Twice per week Bob DeMarco talks knives. Email Bob at theknifejunkie@gmail.com; visit https://theknifejunkie.com.
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Announcer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob the Knife Junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the knife junkie podcast. I'm your host, Bob DePantro. On this edition of the show, I'm welcoming back Rolando Escotada to continue our recent conversation. Rolando was, my guest on episode five seventy five in February 2025. That's two months ago as we record this. And we found out many things. One of which is that he lives only three blocks away from where I lived when I was in New York City. And had I known that then, I would have been a permanent fixture at his apartment and his martial arts practice.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:52]:
Rolando is a lifelong Filipino martial arts practitioner and teacher of those arts, but also has studied a wealth of other eastern and western martial arts, all mostly revolving around the blade. And speaking of blades, he has one hell of a collection. We'll continue our conversation and find out about his knife collection and other things. But first, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, hit that notification bell, and download the show to your favorite podcast app. That way, you can listen on the go. And if you'd like to help support the show, a really good way to do that is to head on over to the knifejunkie.com/patreon and check out what we have to offer you over there. You can also scan that QR code on the screen. Again, that's the knifejunkie.com/patreon.

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Bob DeMarco
Rolando, welcome back to the show, sir. Good to see you.

Rolando Estocada [00:02:12]:
Thank you for having me, Bob. It's good to have it's good to be back.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:15]:
It is it is my pleasure. So, last time when I had you on in February, I realized after an hour, there's, like, a lot more. I felt like we were hanging out around the coffee table, you know? And, there were a lot of things, that I wanted to continue talking about, so I'm I'm glad you were able to come back on. And, we'll get to these, but, you know, we see all the samurai swords, all the Japanese swords behind. I wanna talk about how do you of the Japanese arts. But first thing I wanna talk about, I wanna talk about your collection because you've got this epic collection video on YouTube that, I think I mentioned off air last time. It's like one of my Citizen Kane's, you know. It's like it's like right up there with, Pulp Fiction and I you know, I could just sit down and watch it over and over.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:01]:
And it's you presenting your knife collection, but also talking about your knife collecting journey. And that's a that's a term I don't like to use unless you're on a ship. But in this case, journey, I think, is is apt. Tell me about your collection and when you started actually collecting knives.

Rolando Estocada [00:03:19]:
I started collecting about twenty five years ago. So it wasn't it wasn't until much later in my life. Having grown up in The Philippines, you know, it's a very it's a macho culture, you know, and it's a very blade oriented culture. And my dad, you know, who was an attorney, he was a government official. He wanted his son to basically go down a slightly different path. So he really discouraged a lot of, hey, you know, with regards to weapons, any sort of weapon, You discourage it. Really encouraged martial arts. And as a kid, I kinda raised my hand and looked at it.

Rolando Estocada [00:03:55]:
When am I gonna get into martial arts? I was like, well, when you're older, you can, but you have to have matured. So I didn't get into it. But even then, I had to kind of, like, sneak around it. You know? Here I am, a full grown man, you know, living in New York. You know? And I I still had to kind of, sneak around it. And part of it is because he, Filipinos are very superstitious. And my dad being a student of Felicissimo Dizon, he inherited some of that superstition from his instructor. And one of his superstitions was that, you know, the the Filipino Blades, you know, they have their own kind of aura.

Rolando Estocada [00:04:34]:
They have their own spirit. So you have to not don't invite that into your life. That was basically what he said. It was it's, and in our lineage, it was kinda considered bad luck. Right? But I was but that's what what do you do when you're a son? What what happens when you tell your son don't do something? They do that exact thing that you told them not to do. So that's the route I went. And, the the first night, that really got me going was those, Pakistani buoys, that are just really they're they're not good at all. They're, like, four forty, whatever it is.

Rolando Estocada [00:05:12]:
Not heat treated well, but I just fell in love with it. And my journey after that it's funny you bring this up because I'm in the middle of kind of refining my, collecting journey and, you know, most likely gonna turn it into an episode to kinda share, you know, not just the journey, but even the mistakes that I've made. And I know in my early days, you know, we all went through this, like, this mistake, you know, you you're in this acquisition phase, you know, you're, you're kind of, you kind of go nuts and you, you're on Blade forums, you're on eBay and, you know, you, do you bid or do you buy it now? You know, so I went through that phase, right? And you're just kind of in this, you know, you're, you're, you're kind of shaking like this because you're, you just want to feel this really cool thing in your hands. But then as time evolves, you know, you you've seen enough, you kind of get over that initial hump of, of collecting. I know I did. Where is this okay for me to have, you know, is it, I just, I just want to make sure that I feel okay. And then once you kind of get over that, like, yeah, it's okay. You, you can get them.

Rolando Estocada [00:06:20]:
You're full grown adult. Just get whatever you like, whatever you want. Then after that, that's when things started to get a little more refined. And a lot of what informed that was one, well, are you even able to train in any of these? You know? Are you able to, even use them? And what is your philosophy of use? You know? Because in philosophy of use in those days was, well, you know, you gotta be able to make it a part of your daily activities. If you're gonna have an apple, use your knife. In those days, there was a lot of, talk about, wood crafting. Right? Or can your knife? You know, you can go through, like, a a piece of log, you know, just for firewood, kindling, whatever. So that was a thought process back then.

Rolando Estocada [00:07:09]:
But as a martial artist, and I live in New York, I'm not gonna build any sort of, fire here. So I thought, well, what is my philosophy of use? And that's what started to inform, my collecting philosophy. Ultimately, what is Rolando Estacada's philosophy of use? And ultimately that philosophy of use is what, the question is, well, how is it making me one, a more informed knife collector, but also a better martial artist? Those are the two primary criteria, which then separates it into, well, are you buying it because you like it, like it's an impulse? Or are you buying it because you want it because it fits your personal defined criteria?

Bob DeMarco [00:07:52]:
So weapons, basically. You were thinking about self defense. How does this fit into my training as well as my love for knives? And, so you you kind of had it narrowed down to self defense or tactical kinda weapon y knives.

Rolando Estocada [00:08:08]:
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's the timing was such that, you know, I live in New York. Right? That's one thing. But after nine eleven, that I think that impacted everybody. So people started, thinking a little differently, and it wasn't even necessarily about, oh my god. Am I gonna have to, let me see what I can get here. Am I gonna have to use my my cold steel Laredo, you know, to fight off Al Qaeda? Right? You know? Because they they could be storming down the streets at any moment now.

Rolando Estocada [00:08:42]:
Right? You know, and it wasn't that. It was just what do I have in the house that can make me feel safe? That's the psychology that I know a lot of New Yorkers went through. And I knew a lot of New Yorkers who were getting into all types of weaponry without even training. They just wanted to have something on them. And that's where I had to kind of educate myself and even discipline myself to say, well, be very clear as to why. So my early days of, collecting was really to your point, on the tactical side. But I think what was underneath that was really driven by this reaction to this, horrible national, tragedy and catastrophe that it impacted everybody.

Bob DeMarco [00:09:34]:
Well, I know from looking at your collection that ranged, those knives back then ranged from, say, the large, the the Vaquero Grande, you know, the precursor to the Voyager. But also you got into, Randall made knives. So so what were some of those earlier knives? And then I wanna talk about what you're kind of into right now.

Rolando Estocada [00:09:54]:
You got my earlier knives were really a long there were two things that informed it. Folders, right? So, you know, the opportunity to, wow. So how, how do I learn how what is a carry system, right? Can I carry it? Is it even is it legal to carry? I mean, here's, here's a good example is, I've started exploring it a little bit is, you know, those, neck knives from, Cold Steelhead. This is a MiniTac. Right? In the and, of course, because I love the buoy, I love the buoy profile. You know? So just exploring things that is within legal, definitions of what you can carry. And that's changed over time, in New York, but it's always been under four inches. And this one is under four inches, the cold steel tiger claw.

Rolando Estocada [00:10:42]:
Right? But it was always around this idea of, well, what can be carried on my person legally? Right? That's one. But then, ultimately, how do I make sure that I'm trained in it in two ways? One, the ability to carry and deploy, or and also once deployed, how can I, use it, a, effectively, and I can still control the tempo of the fight? In other words, don't kill someone you didn't intend to kill, and definitely kill someone you intended to kill. Right? So you can control, that. And and that's where my mindset, was at the time. Tactical, folder, folder carry. But the other part, because I was exposed to it by my instructor, were buoy knives. And I've and, again, that was the first knife I had was the Pakistani buoy. And, of course, you're going through eBay.

Rolando Estocada [00:11:38]:
Well, what's the best? What's the most legit? What's the most awesome thing? And those were the days where, again, so much focus on buoy knives was around woodcraft, kindling, camping. Becker nine was a big deal back then. And I even thought about, why don't I just get a Becker nine? Sounds like a really robust tool, but it just did not meet all the definitions. And so what I ended up getting, which is apparently, quite the rarity nowadays, is the Ontario Hell's Bell. This thing is pretty pristine. Maybe cut a couple of pieces of paper. But when I first got this, I I just about lost my mind. I thought, wow.

Rolando Estocada [00:12:21]:
This is I I I mean, even just right now, even though I have several customs in my collection, the Ontario Hell's Belt is still as good as it's gonna get in my opinion as far as a production fighting buoy knife is concerned. Bill Bagwell's collaboration with Ontario, Totally underrated. I mean, just look at that and just take a look at just the proportions of it. Still crazy, crazy sharp. And if you can just appreciate that false edge going into that needle point and then look at that coffin handle. So on the one hand, I was like, alright. Let's be a little hectic cool. You know, I'm I'm gonna not gonna go and say that I was, like, really up on everything.

Rolando Estocada [00:13:09]:
I was a beginner. I had no idea. So I was kind of going through the tactical phase while studying this whole other aspect of American history and American knife design through the fighting buoy knives of, Bill Dagwell.

Bob DeMarco [00:13:25]:
So were you carrying first of all, I mean, you you pull out that, Ontario, it's still amazing to me and and I look I kinda lurk around eBay looking at those and I told you I'm having something similar made by a custom maker right now, but, I I look on eBay at the Ontarios and they're $6,600, 7 hundred bucks. I remember when they came out, they were like a hundred and 50. And, and at the time, they didn't appeal to me. I I I don't know why. It's so stupid. Now, I think I wanted bigger, broader, kind of more Marine Raider style

Rolando Estocada [00:14:02]:
boat Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:02]:
At the time, but, so two questions. First of all, what makes the Bagwell the superlative fighting knife, a, and b, were you carrying that knife?

Rolando Estocada [00:14:14]:
Was I carrying that knife? I'm trying to remember because I know I must have, but I'm I don't think I ever made it past, like, the steps of my apartment. You know? You you kinda go downstairs to the laundry and feel like a you know, you're in your twenties. You wanna feel like a like, you're tough and you got something on you. Sure. Right? You know, you go down to laundry and maybe the only thing that might have threatened me at the time was, like, you know, a New York rat that kinda said, hey. What's up? Right? Something like that. Hey. You stay away.

Rolando Estocada [00:14:44]:
Right? But here's let let me give you, one of let me reach over here and and hopefully, I can reach over without ruining too much. Where where did I put it? Oh, here. Sorry about that. So here's a very good example of a very good, fighting knife and to this day still defines what a very good fighting knife, as far as the bully profile is concerned. And this is the Cold Steel Laredo. This is, the SK five version, and it has that, you know, that plastic, pocket, wood. I have several of these. I have three of them here, but I had four at one point and I gifted it to a friend.

Rolando Estocada [00:15:29]:
And, I mean, just take a look at how aggressive that profile is, you know, the width of it. Right? And it still has that coffin handle. But I still remember being on the phone with Bill, and we were talking about my custom and what we were going to do. And then he said, well, Lynn Thompson just sent me a prototype of the Laredo, and he wanted my thoughts. And here I am just, oh my god. I'm about to hear, you know, from the master what are his thoughts on the Laredo. And he and the first thing he said was, it's too small. This is a nine inch buoy, by the foot.

Rolando Estocada [00:16:11]:
It's nine inches. So it's he said, well, first, he thought it was too small. Bill was, if I'm not mistaken, almost up to three hundred pounds. Right? And his forearms are, like, the size of my quad. So this is a and he was a former, you know, football player. So, you know, it's proportionate relative to him. Right? It's small relative to him. But the one that stood out was when he said, you know, Rolando, it's not a fighting buoy because of the guard.

Rolando Estocada [00:16:43]:
So there's no guard as sharp as it is, as intimidating as the profile is. It's just he said it's not a fighting buoy. Right? And so I asked him, so why do you think Lynn did it this way? And he said it's cost. It comes down to cost. It he said it takes a lot of effort, materials, and good craftsmanship to build something like a devil's horn here on the Hells Bell. So why, you know, to go back to your question, why is the bag well designed? Well, first of all, just the practicality of it. There's a guard. So the of course, it sounds you know, we've some people will say, what would you need a guard for? You're not in New Orleans.

Rolando Estocada [00:17:37]:
You're not gonna be dueling anybody, with a buoy knife. It's not gonna be buoy on buoy. Why would you need a guard? Simple. For the same reason why you'd want a guard for any knife that you own. Right? You're not getting in you know, we're not getting into any samurai sword duels, but we still wanna guard on our katana.

Bob DeMarco [00:17:57]:
Yeah.

Rolando Estocada [00:17:57]:
Right? You know, we we we still want a guard on our SOG. Now it's a SOG Trident. We still wanna guard. There's something about having a substantial guard that covers the hand. So that's the first one. That's the first thing that makes it ultimate. Right? Number two, that really super aggressive false edge, but at the same time as aggressive as it is, that still lines up in terms of the radius bone all the way into the tip so that it has this thrusting power. Sometimes some false edges can be a little too aggressive.

Rolando Estocada [00:18:36]:
Just, give me a second here just to make my point here. So this here is the, Randall model eight. Right? The bare buoy. You see how aggressive that is. Right? You see how it doesn't necessarily line up with the radius bone? Maybe it's off by a little bit.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:54]:
You mean, like, a little too upswept?

Rolando Estocada [00:18:56]:
Yeah. It's a little too upswept. So, you know, without getting too graphic, but when something is not aligned to the forearm bone bones, like a bench press. Right? If a barbell is not supported by the forearm bones, the ability to transfer force through the bones and into the external object is relatively diminished. Now one can argue, well, how much force do you need? Well, I don't know. Who are you fighting? You know, if you're especially nowadays, if you're up against somebody who's, let's say, armored. Right? If you're somebody who has so many thick layers, whatever you whatever it is that you're trying to do, you want your skeletal anatomy to be as aligned with it as possible. So if we go back to that hell's bell, that point goes all the way to this bone.

Rolando Estocada [00:19:48]:
It goes it lines all the way up to it. So when I drop when I drop this, this thrust, right, it's gonna align all the way into my shoulder. And when I've done testing, with relatively soft targets, like, in a something like, it's like a stuffed cardboard box that I would have, and I I would do this thrust. The Bagwell Buoy is the only one where and this is how, Tommy Hearns, the boxer Mhmm. He described it. He goes, you know that guy's gonna go down? And, you know, he had a legendary Red Cross. He said, when you hit him and you feel it radiate up to your shoulder, that's when you know. And some of us are old enough to remember this.

Rolando Estocada [00:20:35]:
When he knocked out Roberto Duran, it was that exact thing. And that was when Duran went they just face planted. I mean, Roberto Duran went toe to toe with Marvin Hagler, and Marvin Hagler couldn't even drop him. It hit him so hard that he said it irradiated all the way up to his shoulder. The Bagwell buoy, when I did that thrust, this is the only knife I've ever felt where once I thrust into it, I felt that go all the way up to my shoulder, activated all the musculature of the shoulder girdle, the trapezius, the mid traps, infraspinatus, and the pecs. When you feel that, this is the only knife that's ever done it. So the way it aligns with the skeletal anatomy, and the way the, oops, sorry, the way the pulse edge is designed, that's one of the other reasons. But the other main reason, this is very, overlooked in the design, is, these here, this is indexing.

Rolando Estocada [00:21:45]:
So this will always tell you where you are as it relates to the grip. So this is indexing that he put into the coffin handle so that you know, like, your mechanoreceptors line up correctly, your thumb and index finger line up correctly so that it activates the entire chain. And just for comparison, you don't see that on a cold steel Laredo, right? You don't see that indexing. You also don't see that on another well known, Buickon bat knife, the, very rare, SOG Tiger Shark.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:24]:
Oh, yeah.

Rolando Estocada [00:22:24]:
This is an original from the, nineteen eighties. The this is very hard to find. But notice that even though it has these finger grooves, it doesn't have the indexing. And that's something that is very overlooked when it comes to Bill Bagwell's work. And then he fine tuned it even more once he produced a custom. Once he produces a custom, it's for your hand.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:48]:
So those domed over studs are not, structural or maybe they are structural, but they're not there, at as the mechanical connection of the of the handle. They're there so that you know without looking where your hand is on the hand?

Rolando Estocada [00:23:04]:
Yep. Okay. Yep. And in fact, when, when I talked to him about it, he went so far as when he made my first, buoys, the righty lefty ones. Did I bring them? No. They're they're someplace else. But the idea is that he said the idea is that he customized it not only in terms of the studs, but also the shape of the subtle shaping of the handle that had some curvatures and twists to the wood. So that in the middle of the night, if I have to reach for it by my bedside, you would know immediately which one is right, which one is left.

Rolando Estocada [00:23:42]:
You don't need the lights to be on. And your hands just naturally and automatically index into the correct grip. That's the kind of thought that went into the master's, process of making these, pieces of art.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:57]:
So, recently and we saw it a little bit the last time you and I spoke. Recently, a knifemaker who is gonna be coming on this show, I'm very excited to talk to him

Rolando Estocada [00:24:06]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:24:06]:
But got connected with you, reached out to you. I'm not exactly sure how that happened or I don't remember. But, he sent you a pretty spectacular fighting bowie. Let's talk about that and and how some of the Bagwell lessons, kinda translate into this night.

Rolando Estocada [00:24:23]:
Yeah. So give me a second. I'm gonna reach over. Okay. This is the Rainmaker made by Bobby Raines. This is the Rainmaker made by Bobby Raines the second. I did an episode on it. And so I want you to see oh, there it is.

Rolando Estocada [00:24:38]:
Right? So just by comparison, so here's the studs, right, on the Ontario Bagwell, and here are the studs Oh, yeah. Along. Yeah. So it it's pretty close to that alignment. But what Bobby did, right, if I line up the handles a certain way, he kinda brought it down a little further. Right? And he did that because, he'd been watching my videos, and he'd been watching, how I move. And what he did instead because he because I in in one of the episodes, I said, hey. You wanna take advantage of the mechanoreceptors along the palm.

Rolando Estocada [00:25:26]:
His thought process was instead of having this stud be right here on the index finger to help me align, he wanted it just to be slightly under my index finger. So that now my mechanoreceptors rest on the dog bone here. This was his thought process. So now there's a little bit of feedback from this stud here, but most of the feedback is that when this bottom part of the dog bone just bites into the mechanoreceptors. So what does that mean? That means this one, as I mentioned, is really good for the thrust, whereas this one is more for when this hits the mechanoreceptors of the palm, it's really good for that beautiful, snap cut when it snaps forward. So this actually bone and then it just creates this is the fulcrum over here and it goes boom. That's what it does. And that was his thought process.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:34]:
This is a difference between a the Bagwell, has a coffin shape. This is if people are just listening. The Bagwell Bowie has a coffin shaped handle and the Bobby Raines Bowie, the Rainmaker, has a dog bone pommel. Yeah. And so so two kind of optimized for two different, modalities there.

Rolando Estocada [00:26:55]:
Yeah. And I've found, in fact, I'm still developing this. I was talking to Bobby about this, and and it's one of the projects I'm working on for my channel is I've found that there even there are gradients in each technique, and I've found that there are, like, there are four styles of back cuts in my practice. Not only in terms of my observations of Bill, and, master at arms James Keating, but, even observing, like, one of and I got lucky enough to observe this. It was a sparring match, Bowie sparring match between, I think it I I don't know how to pronounce his name correctly. I think it's Los Isavo, the knife maker. Yeah. Yeah.

Rolando Estocada [00:27:38]:
And, Bill Bagwell. Oh. And yeah. And Los Isabos had his own way of doing back cuts that, those are back in the days when, the late Mike Sastry would just send me videos, on my AOL account, which I no longer have. But he would send me these videos, and I was like, what is that? What what what is that movement that he's doing? But it was, in my memory, he did the back cut very differently, which is different from how Keating does a back cut, which is also different from how Bagwell does the back cut. But then it's also different from how I do the back cut. Mhmm. So that's where I started to notice and realize that Ontario really super optimized for, I'd say it's it's very good with the back cut, but I would say it's really also good for, the the thrust.

Rolando Estocada [00:28:31]:
But I found that the dog bone, especially the one that Bobby made, one hell of a, snap cutter. And, man, someone who's really good at snap cutting, I had a sparring partner who's really good at snap cutting. By the time you see the movement, you hear yourself getting hit. Well, yeah, I've I've been on the receipt. I'm not the best snap cutter. I think I'm better at back cutting, but I had a sparring partner who just he'd do something like this. And then by the time I heard the thing hit, I was like, oh, man. It's it's undead.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:07]:
Well, I wanna there's a there's a we're we're staying still within your collection. We will move on in a second, but you've got such an amazing collection. And one one real standout part of it are your Randall made knives. I'm a huge fan of Randall's. I I only have two only, but I'm blessed to have two. Let me put it that way.

Rolando Estocada [00:29:25]:
Uh-huh. It's like having two Rolexes. Yeah. It's like having two Rolexes. To me, they're the Rolex of knives. Randall is a Rolex of knives in my opinion.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:33]:
Okay. So I I will, occasionally talk about them, and when I posted videos about them, I got people saying, oh, well, you can see the the solder, there's the grind mark, or, you know, for that amount of money, you should expect a different steel or whatever. And, you know, I don't know, I don't know, I in my own way, I said, you don't get it.

Rolando Estocada [00:29:56]:
What what

Bob DeMarco [00:29:58]:
do you think of, I I know you just said they're the Rolex, but, like, why? Why are Randall made knives what they are and and why do they have such a, a marked place in your collection? It's kind of like, it's it's a big part of it is the

Rolando Estocada [00:30:13]:
heritage and the history of it. Right? So there's that. And there's, how do I put it right? I like boots, by the way.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:23]:
Yeah.

Rolando Estocada [00:30:24]:
I like, Red Wing, Red Wing boots.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:26]:
I noticed that in a picture you posted, you're wearing the the Iron Rangers, which are my

Rolando Estocada [00:30:32]:
yeah. Also Oh, yeah. They're your favorite. Oh my god. That like, Iron Rangers. I could I could go on and on about Iron Rangers. I could go on and on about Red Wings, Thurgoods. Forget it.

Rolando Estocada [00:30:42]:
I'll go on and on. But, of course, if you go to kids nowadays and you ask them, alright. So, you know, you heard of Red Wings? Red what? Right? So and then when you show them what a Red Wing looks like it's funny we're talking about the Iron Rangers because for this episode, I'm actually wearing my Iron Rangers. They're that comfortable. But, you know, most kids nowadays who don't understand, not just the history and heritage of a red wing Iron Ranger, The minute you show it to them, you know, they'll say the silly things that people say on social media. Like, you know, they're like clown boots, whatever. It's like, guys, these were made for minors and the vertical integration of the company where they they are tanning and making their own leather, and it it's like it fits like a glove around your foot. But there's a long break in period.

Rolando Estocada [00:31:36]:
I don't know. Yeah. Well, yeah, because you grew up with sneakers, so you don't know what it's like to break in a shoe and actually just earn the right for them to be comfortable. That's the the same mindset I have when it comes to Randall made knives that, let me see. What do I have here? Because I'm I I already brought out the the Randall eight. I'm trying to see oh, you're gonna have to give me a second. I'm gonna reach right over. I promise you it's gonna be worth it.

Bob DeMarco [00:32:04]:
Sure thing. Yeah. I bet it will be because, I've been checking out checking out your collection and your your various, you've got the one eight, I know. Rolando has the number one fighting blade in the eight inch, which is, you don't see that too often, I don't think. Is that what you're about to oh my goodness. Yeah. Look at that. Holy mackerel.

Rolando Estocada [00:32:28]:
Yep. Now what is that? What is that? If I'm not mistaken, this is the Randall Buoy nine inch in the 14 and a half grind. So it's so the the 14, if I'm not mistaken, is the attack. So it's a it's a thick it's a thicker, more robust grind to it. So this is a true working buoy. Right? Yeah. So notice that it it not as aggressive when it comes to that false edge, although it is still sharp. Right? Right.

Rolando Estocada [00:33:03]:
And then you have take a look at this wonderful stag handle.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:07]:
That's beautiful.

Rolando Estocada [00:33:08]:
It narrows and then just slightly swells out ever so slightly. You're gonna take a and look at this, I hope you can catch it. Like, you see the green, the patina Yes.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:20]:
Yep.

Rolando Estocada [00:33:21]:
On the brass? That's deliberate because I, you know, I want it to patina naturally. Now maybe today's younger collectors, they don't like patina. But as we were just discussing, I like my red wing, Iron Rangers. You want the patina on the Iron Rangers. You don't want, oh, no. There's a little boo boo on my shoe. Leave it. That's part of the character.

Rolando Estocada [00:33:44]:
Right? And it's the same thing with Randalls. The reason why I like Randalls is for the same exact reason why I like the Red Wing Iron Rangers. I like, my clothes to be a certain way in that they age a certain way. They have that character. They have that vintage look to it in that someone actually used the knife. I'm, of course, you know, one of the worst offenders in that I I baby these guys, but I definitely let them age. I mean, especially with the, the bronze here with the green. But you ready for this? In addition to that, I have the Randall as a partner Espada Hidaga Trailblazer as a partner.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:38]:
Look at that.

Rolando Estocada [00:34:39]:
Right? Yeah. Look at that. And this is this, if you take a look at it, if you know your heritage, and I know a lot of young collectors don't know, this was, more like a skaggle. Yep. Right? Yeah. So if you so this is more like a, a hunter, like when you're, you know, you're dressing game, and this is what you use when you are, you know, building a firewood. Right? Your your, your your, kindling and all of those things, building a shelter. So this is the really nice tough one, but this is the one that, takes care of, your deer and your your dressing.

Rolando Estocada [00:35:20]:
And that's that's what you do. Right? I'm butchering all of the terms. It just goes to show you that I'm a true city boy. Yeah. But I have an appreciation for tools that have won a true American heritage that really what The USA has been built on in terms of the work ethic and the traditions of it. And that's something I I really love about the specific American heritage. In addition to that, Randall has one heck of a, legacy and reputation as tools used in practically every theater of war. Yeah.

Rolando Estocada [00:36:04]:
Famously in World War two and in every every theater of war afterwards. I don't know too many knife companies that can lay claim to that. And, that's why.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:16]:
That Skaggle, I'm sorry I'm interrupting you, but you had those

Rolando Estocada [00:36:19]:
That's right.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:19]:
Beautiful, the Skaggle type I don't know what model number is that, the 12?

Rolando Estocada [00:36:24]:
20 seven.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:25]:
20 seven.

Rolando Estocada [00:36:25]:
20 seven Trailblazer.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:27]:
So not even close, but that's one of the very few models that doesn't have the sharpened false edge.

Rolando Estocada [00:36:33]:
Precisely.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:34]:
Almost all have the sharpened false edge, which I love, a, because I love a sharpened false edge. But also, it it really, puts in sharp relief that combat legacy that you're talking about.

Rolando Estocada [00:36:50]:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And you don't it's something about there's something to be said about the American legacy and American contribution to blade craft. Right? As you can see, you know, I have the Filipino swords here from traditionalfilipinoweapons.com. Right? And then you have the Japanese swords on this side, and there's another rack on this side from Bougue. So we when we think of knives and when we think of swords, we tend to think of it, at least nowadays, we tend to think of it in more relatively exotic, kind of terms in that it's, it's coming from so many parts of the world and it's true. You know, it's, there are many types of knives, many types of, swords from all types of backgrounds, but there's really something to be said about the American heritage of, knives.

Rolando Estocada [00:37:45]:
Not really swords because I don't think we have I don't think Americans have that sword kind of, history, but knives definitely. I mean, for just to give you an idea of just how crazy I am for American knives, I just received not just my one, but also two custom Buck one tens. Right? And this one, this is it. I I love the Paul Bose, treatment. You know, not the MagnaCut. I'm forgetting. I think it's the four twenty h c. But this is in cherry wood.

Rolando Estocada [00:38:20]:
And what makes it custom, right, are those finger grooves. And the intelligence, the and design in something as simple as this, you know, as a work knife is just amazing because not only can you add the finger grooves here. Once again, this lands without disengaging the lock because it's a lock back, it's back here. It settles very nicely onto the mechanoreceptors of the palm so that you can manipulate it for small work, but you can also use it for bigger work by putting your thumb on it. And right now, this is my favorite work knife when I am on the field. I absolutely love this. This is the cherry wood version, but I also have and this is something that, again, just blows me away. American craftsmanship just blows me away.

Rolando Estocada [00:39:17]:
This is the blue wood version. Look how gorgeous that is. That's just gorgeous. And the part that makes me just you know, I was mentioning Red Wing, how much I love Red Wing. I love Buck. Can you imagine something as beautiful and as simple and as elegant as this? And I think the I think what I paid for for one of these is a hundred $20. Really? Seriously? You know, in this economy, you make something as beautiful and affordable as this. I love this company.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:49]:
Definitely one of the most beautiful clip point blades ever created is the Buck one pen. And, to to quote, Rob the Apostle p, he called that, you know, that was the tactical knife of many a good old boy. You know, like, yeah. Yeah. It's been used for everything.

Rolando Estocada [00:40:08]:
Yeah. And you know what I love about this the most is that, you know, in, I think it's in, carpentry where they say, measure twice measure twice, cut once. Yeah. And then Chris Reeve used it, think twice, cut once. The fact that you can't flick this open Yeah. And, again, this is a big thing for newer collectors, knife collectors. Oh, I can slick it open, pick it closed, I love the sound, all of those great things. If you're gonna use this, you really have to think twice.

Rolando Estocada [00:40:39]:
You gotta reach all the way back for it. You gotta open it. It clicks open. It's not something you can flick open. And but to your point, even though you can't flick it open, it was to, you know, for many, many decades and probably still up to this day, the tactical knife of many a good old boy.

Bob DeMarco [00:41:00]:
So so I'm glad you brought those out. Those are beautiful, and and I need to carry my Buck one ten, which is just a Walmart version. I gotta carry it more often, and and I I I love the one twelve as well.

Rolando Estocada [00:41:12]:
Oh, yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:41:12]:
But you were talking about, I wanna talk about a little bit of the Japanese stuff for a second. But before we get there, we're talking about American knives and American designs and, Bob Loveless here. This

Rolando Estocada [00:41:24]:
Oh, yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:41:25]:
A recent acquisition since you and I spoke. This is a a vintage cold steel, Big Bear Black Bear Classic, and it's in the I love the Sub Hilt. I know you have some reservations about the Sub Hilt. I love it, that double edged clip point blade, long and slender, and, me, it's like it's like a drumstick in my hand. You know?

Rolando Estocada [00:41:47]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Don't get me wrong. I I own one also, this exact same one in vintage.

Bob DeMarco [00:41:52]:
And I got leather sheep, which I'm I'm happy about. But but, it's it's the concept of patterns, knife patterns. It's like, the great American songbook. You know? Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, they all sang the same songs. They just had their different versions across, the first half of the twentieth century. It's similar with a lot of knife patterns. Bob Lovelace is responsible for a number of really great ones. And then Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:42:19]:
And then, in the slip joint world, we have a number of really great ones. That that is something I feel is is very, not unique not not unique to the to America, but is very, strong in The United States.

Rolando Estocada [00:42:34]:
Yes. Yes. I mean, you have one you have the boy scout culture. Right? Yeah. And, you know, there's a lot of nostalgia for those kinds of knives. You know, k slip joints. Right? The buck $1.10. And what's not to love about that? Because there's that kind of Americana that so many Americans, but not just Americans.

Rolando Estocada [00:42:54]:
People worldwide miss that kind of Americana. Right? I mean, I'd you know, I'm only learning this now that apparently, some of the best American jeans are made in Japan because they were able to preserve a lot of the American manufacturing practices, which takes a lot of time, but you have to pay a premium. But Japan apparently loves that kind they're they too are also nostalgic for that kind of Americana. And I think there's something to be said about honoring that. Yeah. Whether because there's it's in many ways, it just kind of gets to you in many ways. And but at the same time, speaking of the Japanese, they honor their Japanese swords

Bob DeMarco [00:43:38]:
Yes.

Rolando Estocada [00:43:38]:
But in a completely like, a completely different way. And I think that's what leads me, this kind of feeling. And I I believe it was, like, Musashi at one point wrote about it in his book of five rings. This feeling of this combination of practicality, but also this reverence. Like, he he was a very practical guy in his, I think it's called the dokudo, like, the nine rules. One of his one of the harshest rules I read in there is, like, you know, the, don't do not do anything that is of no use. Like, as that's as practical as it gets. But then on the flip side of that, he wrote, well, I can't explain this art to you the way I understand it in my heart.

Rolando Estocada [00:44:26]:
So on the one hand, super practical, very much in the prefrontal cortex, but then, you know, there's something in the emotion about it. And I think that's where, the Japanese are, and that's how I am with the Japanese sword. And that there's a practicality to every inch of the Japanese sword, but there's also this reverence that comes with it. And I think that's where, like authentic Americana, that's American culture. I think that's where both cultures kind of meet. That's why I'm the kind of guy that you'll see, you know, loving, Chris Reeve, Buck one ten, Red Wing, but also loving Japanese swords, traditional Filipino swords because there's something practical, there's something that you can revere about things that are well made, but at the same time are really functional and practical.

Bob DeMarco [00:45:18]:
So where did your, how did you cultivate your love in that incredible collection? We're only seeing about half of it, at least as far as I know. You studied some Japanese, sword art. Right?

Rolando Estocada [00:45:33]:
Yes. I did. It's called Shinkager Ryu. Very briefly, maybe a little bit a little over a year, but it is one of, I believe, three or four Koryu arts. And Koryu means, before the Edo period, before there was a shogun, there was the, Sengoku Jidai. And, basically, the the Japanese samurai were were basically always fighting on the battlefield. So the arts that were preserved were called Koryu, meaning they were able to preserve the battlefield technology, like armored technology, the use of the Japanese sword with the idea that the guy you're fighting is in armor. So your leverage points, the way you position yourself, the best way I can explain it is that, the way my sensei explained it, it's like it's not like in Kurosawa movies where they stand straight or in, in kendo where they stand straight.

Rolando Estocada [00:46:36]:
It's more like in football because in football, like, you're rushing. It's also on the field. So you're kind of positioned more for a tackle. And your if your body is not used to that, that holding a sword in that position, and if your core is not trained, your breathing is not synced with it, oh my god. Your your body's gonna be hurting in places you did not under you know, didn't know existed. And I'm I'm a lifter. I'm not supposed to be sore holding a sword. But it it really opened my eyes, to this whole other understanding of what is called the samurai body.

Rolando Estocada [00:47:16]:
Like, the samurai related to their bodies very differently to how we as, Western athletes and Western lifters or sometime, gym goers do. They did not use muscles. They use their bodies in a very unique way that I'm myself have a hard time putting into words. But it's Shinka Gyu, one of the Koryu arts, with a focus on armored and unarmored fighting.

Bob DeMarco [00:47:46]:
So what were the circumstances that that particular art, fought unarmored? It seems like, you know, that's two different things. One's a battlefield art, and the other is what? You're caught by surprise or it's after the battle?

Rolando Estocada [00:48:00]:
That's one. That's one. But if I'm not mistaken, one of the scenarios that, the samurai did have to deal with, which was unarmored, was if you're going to another person's house or another person's castle, and you had to leave your katana at the door. And all you had that you could have on you was your wakizashi. So there was a specific technique to how you sat, a specific technique in bowing, where your fingers are, you know, in relation to the floor, to your body, to the sword, where your eyes are. Like, everything was so measured because, aside from the military culture, but the fact that there was just so much war going on that if you were inexact in any way, you could be cut down thinking that you were in a negotiation or just visiting your friend. Yep. Right? You know? So the unarmored situation was from a kneeling position.

Rolando Estocada [00:49:02]:
I wanna add a little note to that. All those ideas and, you know, especially on the Internet. Oh, Brazilian jiu jitsu, you know, that's that's not realistic. Nobody starts their fights from the knees. Well, the samurai did. They did. There are entire techniques and kata on just how do you fight from a kneeling or bowing position and your wakizashi is, like, in front of you, to the side of you, you know. There's a guy to your left.

Rolando Estocada [00:49:34]:
There's a guy to your right. I'm not saying that this is what Chicago Ryu taught me. I can't really speak too much about it. But, yeah, that's one unarmored, situation that they train for.

Bob DeMarco [00:49:45]:
So it's this sort of deliberate way of living and acting and training that, it it even seems, you know, and and to me, Japanese culture is like this. They take everything to such, such an art form and an extreme in a way, that, you know, unless, I don't know, unless you're extremely devoted to some sort of pursuit, a lot of us don't take things, that far or or refine things that much. So from from all of your, studies in martial arts, be they, Filipino, which is a lifelong pursuit, or some of the western things. We talked about Navaja and Bowie, last time and this time. And, and now we're talking about Japanese swordsmanship. There's a lot of, there are varying levels of being deliberate about everything you do. How would you distill that and and give advice to the modern man or woman living now who hasn't had a lifetime of bladed martial arts training, but, like, what lessons from being that deliberate would you distill out of that and, you know, offer as advice?

Rolando Estocada [00:50:59]:
I I I like the question and it's, I'm gonna relate it to how the Japanese and, Americans relate relate to each other to this day. The Japanese, culture having come from so much militancy throughout the thousands of years of hierarchical, kind of society, that kind of structure, it required so much of precision because, you know, there was a fight could break out at any time. There was a samurai class and it was super elite. And so everything had to be decided in such a way for precision because as a samurai, you could be cut down at any time. Right? So as a result of that, like, just living in this kind of super disciplined militant society created a lot of tension in it. Right? So, like, the Tokugawa Shogun, he had a son, Iemitsu, who apparently was, like, one of the crazier sons. But there's a reason for it. Apparently, in order to prepare him to be the next shogun, the one of the feedback that they got was that when he was a young boy, he had a tendency to just when he was asleep, he was, you know, like any normal child, just kind of flop around, you know, in his sleep or something or other.

Rolando Estocada [00:52:19]:
Well, they viewed this as a no no that this was not a good characteristic trait to have. So what they did was when he slept, they put, like, swords, like, right next to his body so that if he even moved a little bit, he would get cut. Right? So imagine growing up as a child, one in that way. Now I'm not saying every Japanese child went through that, but at some point, the story got passed down. Yeah. That the most powerful, individual in the country grew up in this kind of tense, militant, super structured, fashion, that that tension ultimately got packed down to every aspect of the culture. Right? So there's that piece to it. Okay? And so what they did and I think it it might have it it came into a true fruition when Kurosawa became a filmmaker because Kurosawa is legendary.

Rolando Estocada [00:53:16]:
Because if I understand it correctly, he studied, Howard Hawks movies. Mhmm. So he studied cowboy movies. Right? He studied The Searchers. Right? So he studied American culture. And from what I understand, like, the way they create, jeans there now, which is considered, the best jeans in the world, they took and perfected American manufacturing. But the spirit of it is that kind of looseness that Americans are known for, that kind of relaxness, almost casualness to it, and, their love for baseball also. Right? So there's this to counterpoint the structure, the Japanese adapted the somewhat casualness and freedom that comes from American culture.

Rolando Estocada [00:54:05]:
And Bruce Lee famously did that too, Brigitte Kune Do, because he found that same rigidity, that kind of crystallization of knowledge and, fluidity in his famous words, is the very is the very tombstone of the classical Kung Fu man, Kung Fu man. Right? The Americans have a very different fascination with the Japanese and with, Asia. The United States has no hierarchy. It's a flat hierarchy. It's democratized. Everybody is equal. You're just as good as the other person. Right? And the process is not as important as the outcome.

Rolando Estocada [00:54:45]:
So that kind of looseness, that kind of, almost free wheel wheeling spirit of the American mind, the American spirit is fascinated. But by the kind of benefits that come from the kind of discipline that you see, in that comes from these kinds of cultures. So that's where it's a little bit symbiotic. So speaking of Kurosawa, who was inspired by Howard, Hawks and his westerns, Kurosawa created a whole generation of western filmmakers who loved his movies. You know, you had Spielberg, Lucas, Scorsese. They all revere Kurosawa and, his work. But not realizing that they were influencing each other and borrowing from each other the whole time. So from a martial standpoint, it's that fine balance, as Bruce Lee said, that of making the natural, you know, the natural, unnatural, meaning it's somewhat mechanized, and then taking that very mechanized piece and then making it very natural.

Rolando Estocada [00:55:55]:
And that's the balance, like, how you bring it together. So let's say, for some reason, I wanna take my Sebenza, my Mercara Sebenza, and I have to make it tactical for some reason. I can't now all of a sudden just go into whatever form that I go into. I'm not gonna back cut with it. Right? I'm not all of a sudden gonna back cut with it the same way I would back cut with a rainmaker. It's not practical because clearly the size difference, the design, there's no false edge, but I have to be creative enough, improvisatory, improvisatory enough to be able to use this in a tactical fashion. Right? So that's where that integration of just enough structure, so that you can kind of know what you're doing, like, just enough improvisation and and a free spiritedness so that you can create. That's what I've learned.

Rolando Estocada [00:56:50]:
Now what does that have to do with, collecting? Rein yourself enough in so you don't break the bank. Right? So that there's some but, ultimately, so that it is a it is a way to kind of catalog your journey as you grow. Right? I mean, as recently, I've just discovered tomahawks. So I have here the R and D. Right? So this is the the R and D tomahawk, which has, the spike, the front spike, has a rear spike as well, and you're having the ergonomics of it. So now that I'm getting into it, I'm not just about to go and buy every tomahawk on the market. I have quite a few in my collection, but not every last one of them. So that's where the structure comes from.

Rolando Estocada [00:57:36]:
And my understanding of this structure is what's going to inform my ability to be very creative in its use. Right? And I have to be free enough and creative enough so that, well, I can't be too married through the tomahawk. I have to look at other options as well. So, yeah, that's where that's where I, my mindset is right

Bob DeMarco [00:58:00]:
now. I like that. And and, actually, this leads perfectly into my last question, which is, you have an awesome channel, and you don't just throw up videos. Oh, there's here's a new knife and check this knife out. You actually dig deep deeply into, into into each subject that you're covering, and you do a lot of, kind of investigatory work. And you were talking about the tomahawk, the r and d, and then you were also talking about the RMJ Shrike. Tell us about, you have a couple of projects in the works, episodes we can expect. And then also, if you wanna hear more Rolando, we will be doing another ten minutes after this, assuming you agree to that.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:38]:
I forgot to ask.

Rolando Estocada [00:58:39]:
I agree.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:39]:
And we'll get into some other stuff for our gentlemen junkies and patrons. But, as we close here, tell us about some of the projects you have in the office.

Rolando Estocada [00:58:50]:
The one that I've been working on, it's really taking me, down this one heck of a rabbit hole, is a comparison between the very purposeful Winkler's, Winkler r and d, right, used by the Sire Tactical Group of the US Navy SEALs. But then you have the very utilitarian but equally tactical RMJ Shrike used by the US Marines. And just the study, obviously, in terms of the design, I mean, that alone, it could take me just several hours just to go into a dissertation of that. But what it really started to lead me down towards in terms of building the episodes, I'm gonna build a series just on the comparison, is what are the defining lines between what is considered tactical use versus utilitarian use, and how does that inform my own philosophy of use? So that's one that I'm looking at right now, and that's why it led me to the the buck one tens. Right? Because you you it's what an interesting point you made in that many a good old boy, the Buck one ten was a tactical knife. Yes. But it's also one of the most famous utilitarian tools ever used. Like, when I go on the field, you know, my own colleagues will go, hey.

Rolando Estocada [01:00:12]:
Did you bring your book? Yeah. I did. I'm sure you wanna borrow it for and do something that you're not supposed to do with it. Right? Yeah. I'm I recently I mean, it just just to tell you how tough the knife is. Like, the guy ended up cutting, like, really hard plastic with it because he couldn't make a certain drum fit. Right? I gotta cut this thing. I'm gonna just go ahead and cut it.

Rolando Estocada [01:00:33]:
And it sharpens so, nicely. It's like, okay. Four twenty eight c. Let's do it. Right? But it led me to what my opinion is, at least right now, is the weirdest combination of both utility and tactical and heritage and that I'm still building the episode on it is the cold steel frenzy. The frenzy, in my opinion, hits all those right points. I mean, originally, the frenzy according to Lynn Thompson was based off of what's called the Kabuto Wari, which is the Kabuto Breaker. So the helmet of the samurai, apparently, the original, Kabutori would could just, like, penetrate the helmet that way and just end the whole fight.

Rolando Estocada [01:01:23]:
Right? So it has that kind of history and design, but then it's built like a, like a hawk bill, like a carpenter's hawk bill. And in my own testing, if I could carry it legally in New York, which I can't, this would be my premier utility knife because this the edge profile, the design, everything about it, so super good. But, I mean, you know, from a just from a tactical standpoint, the way it opens, this thing is getting in the way. Let me get the other one. There you go. The blue one. Like, if I just just snap open just from a tactical standpoint, just the intimidation factor, it'll end a lot of things. So it just hits all the right spots, both utility and tactical and history and just excellence in design and affordability.

Rolando Estocada [01:02:12]:
I'm building, a series of episodes on the frenzy, which I think is phenomenal.

Bob DeMarco [01:02:17]:
That's awesome. We we so we have a series to look forward of episodes about the Cold Steel frenzy, one of my favorite, modern folders, Tomahawks. I can't wait. And I know you posted, pictures of the Bucks, but I I look forward to a deep dive into the Buck 1 10.

Rolando Estocada [01:02:33]:
Oh, yeah.

Bob DeMarco [01:02:33]:
An unexpected Huge news.

Rolando Estocada [01:02:34]:
Space

Bob DeMarco [01:02:35]:
for you to go, from my perspective, and I love that. But not so unexpected knowing your taste for, Japanese denim and great boots and, Randall knives. So Rolando Escotada, thank you so much for coming back on the Knife Junkie podcast. We will have you back, another time at some point, because I I'd love that. Endless conversation. So I'd love that. Thank you.

Rolando Estocada [01:02:58]:
Thank you.

Bob DeMarco [01:02:58]:
Thanks for coming, sir.

Rolando Estocada [01:02:59]:
My pleasure.

Announcer [01:03:00]:
Adventure delivered. Your monthly subscription for handpicked outdoor, survival, EDC, and other cool gear from our expert team of outdoor professionals. The knife junkie dot com slash battle box.

Bob DeMarco [01:03:13]:
There he goes, ladies and gentlemen. Professor Rolando Escotada. That's my nickname for him all of the sudden. I just like, hearing him talk. Got a lot of cool stuff to say. Check out the first episode if you if you didn't. That was episode five seventy five, came out in February of twenty twenty five. Also, go check out Rolando Escotada's, Instagram, but also his YouTube.

Bob DeMarco [01:03:37]:
He's got an excellent YouTube channel and he really takes deep dives into, the knives, that he's looking at. But also you can you can see him move and watch, these techniques when we're talking about Bowie fighting and jab and, Bowie fighting, Navajo fighting, and Filipino knife fighting. You can see that all in action on his channel. Alright. Thanks for watching. For Jim, doing his magic behind the switcher. I'm Bob DeMarco saying, until next time, don't take dull for an answer.

Announcer [01:04:08]:
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