The Knife Junkie Podcast is the place for knife newbies and knife junkies to learn about knives and knife collecting. Twice per week Bob DeMarco talks knives. Email Bob at theknifejunkie@gmail.com; visit https://theknifejunkie.com.
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Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob the knife Junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:16]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:18]:
I'm Bob DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:19]:
On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with custom knife maker, Sean Old of Gross Motor Gear. Sean makes tools for self protection and for the martial artist. And as the name of his company implies, these are knives meant to remedy the most stressful of situations when the body is attacked and flooded with adrenaline and only those gross motor skills can be called upon in its defense. Though intended for a grim purpose, these knives are quite refined in their design and build and take the most pleasing aesthetic cues from traditional Japanese knives and swords. We'll speak with Sean and discover how he made his way into this exciting niche of the knife world. But first, be sure to join us on Patreon, subscribe, hit the notification bell, and download the show to your favorite podcast app. That way, you can listen on the go. Alright. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to check out the knifejunkie.com/patreon. Again, that's theknifejunkie.com/patreon. T

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Bob DeMarco [00:01:46]:
Sean, welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast. Good to have you here, sir.

Shawn Old [00:01:50]:
Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. And I really I really appreciate just this forum. Like I was telling you before, I think it's really cool that you have this for smaller makers and everything, and we get a platform. That's I it's really neat that you do that. Thank you.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:05]:
The the pleasure is absolutely mine. And and, just to bookend that, I gotta say, it's not it's anyone who, to me, is making interesting and beautiful knives. I have them on. I don't care how big or small. It doesn't, it doesn't matter. To me, it it's it's the work itself, and I know that we have a lot of, knife lovers out there who wanna hear from people like you who are doing this stuff that we love and that we spend our money on and collect. Some collect, some use. Luckily, I haven't really used my knives because, from you because these knives, like I said upfront, they are meant for self defense.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:44]:
And luckily, I have a life where I haven't had to use them yet. But Yeah. They are beautiful. Let let me ask you first, how you got into knives in the first place? Have you always been interested in in knives and and that kind of thing?

Sean Old [00:02:58]:
Yeah. I actually had a buddy of mine just ask me recently, like, why what what was that that I that got me into that? And it was yeah. From from, as far back as I can remember, I think my first knife my dad gave me was the eighties. It was a little different. I was, like, six, I think. Same age as my daughter, which I would not give her a knife, but it was like some little, like, you know, just tiny folder he found in the yard. It was all rusty. He's like, yeah.

Sean Old [00:03:31]:
Here, play with this knife outside. I remember that knife because I broke it immediately, and I was mortified that it broke. And then, so that really stuck with me. But, yeah, I've just always been attracted to to them. I always knew that it was I was always interested in martial arts and, you know, the melee, like, hand to hand or whatever you wanna call that. I've always been attracted to those things. So and knives are obviously such a powerful tool in that sense. So, yeah, since since I can remember, I've always been interested in knives.

Bob DeMarco [00:04:10]:
I think it's kinda cool that you say you've always been interested in the melee because, it just made me think. You know, you and I are of a similar generation, and, the movies that really influenced me, Arnold Schwarzenegger and, you know, Sylvester Stallone, but also the the the the sword and sandal movies. I I I've always liked gun movies, so to speak. Yeah. Ones that like Conan the Barbarian, things with swords and knives Sure. And and and melee situations. Really, really got me interested, and that was the stuff that that always appealed to me. So, in in terms of that, did you study martial arts, or do you?

Sean Old [00:04:52]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I've I've studied martial arts for, quite some time. But when my, wife was it was always kinda casual, but then when my wife was expecting our first, that's when the that lion gene kicked off, and I was like, oh, this is for real. This isn't just like some kid at school or whatever. And I was always kind of a bigger kid, but, I didn't really mess with bullies weren't really a problem. But once once the kid came around, then I was like, okay. I gotta get serious.

Sean Old [00:05:26]:
And so, yeah, then I started, studying, martial arts real seriously multiple times a week, and, I was really tired. You know how it is. Yeah. My kids didn't sleep well. So I was really tired, so I had to push through that. But, yeah. So I started at a Krav Maga school, and because it seemed through my research to be the, quickest way to get, you know, get something functional. And I know lately it has a bad name.

Sean Old [00:05:59]:
I think it's kind of morphed into, like, you know, karate. You can have a little black belt academy school that's just, like, turns out black belt, or you can have a real genuine karate situation. So I think it kinda depends on the school. But, my school had, like, amateur and professional MMA fighters, as well, so we we mix it up with them in the at the same time. So I ultimately, I think it was a really great school. And, yeah, I just I I hit that real hard, and, actually, that was what I was doing before COVID. I was doing that professionally. That was what I I was a instructor there at that school.

Sean Old [00:06:36]:
That was what I was doing professionally, and that's what actually brought me to knives is when COVID hit and the gym kinda shut down. I had to pivot to something I could do at home. And, I knew a lot about self defense. I knew a lot about knives, and I knew a lot about art and design because that's kinda where my, younger younger self was really interested in art and illustration and painting and things like that. So that's kinda it all came together.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:03]:
I wanna talk about the art and design in a second, but, Krav Maga has only gotten a bad name recently, and I am I am I am convinced that it's purely political. I think there are a lot of people out there who would love to besmirch the name of anything Israeli or or Jewish, and that's creepy to me, especially growing up, being born in the early seventies and and growing up in a time where anti Semitism was, like, like, a huge, bugaboo. It was a no no, of course. I mean, as as is all prejudice, but somehow it's become acceptable in recent days. And I think Krav Maga has suffered under that a little bit. But to me and I did, I did a little bit of Krav Maga between, my main martial art was, was Jeet Kune Do,

Sean Old [00:07:50]:
at a

Bob DeMarco [00:07:50]:
very great and progressive, in a good way, school in New York City. And then, before I went on to MDS, which is Mass Grow Defense System

Sean Old [00:08:00]:
Sure.

Bob DeMarco [00:08:01]:
Which is the slot stuff. I did Krav Maga, a great school here in Northern Virginia. And, it is it is, I believe, the the best and quickest way to get to a an actual realistic way to defend yourself, even if you are and I saw it, you know, among the students there who were brand new. In a very quick amount of time, they could learn the basics. And here's the thing, all martial arts, doesn't matter what you're studying, they do the same thing. A cross is a cross is a cross. A leg kick, a hook, an elbow, they're all the same. We're all built the same, and most systems do it the same.

Bob DeMarco [00:08:38]:
So, I have huge respect for Krav Maga. It's the one martial art in our modern time that has actually been functionalized and used. Well, I shouldn't say that. I know the special marines in in The Philippines use the bikini tertiary. That's also a great, way to fight. But, anyway, Krav Maga is is absolutely legit no matter what any keyboard warriors say these days.

Sean Old [00:09:06]:
It it also just fit me really good because it was like they're like, you know, quick encounters, explosivity, aggression. I was really like it just I took to it. I I it just worked for my kind of you know, a lot of times you have to find that thing that that works for you, whatever. Music, martial arts, a knife, whatever. You you know? You have to kinda see what what fits for you. And for me, it just really fit, and I was able to excel at it fairly quickly. And, I had great teachers. I still, do private lessons every week with one of my, instructors, Benny Cohen, and he's like Oh.

Sean Old [00:09:50]:
Drum, Israel, you know, he was a medic, marine. He's seen all kinds of stuff, but he's he's also he went when he was young and he traveled and he learned all kinds of different martial arts from Japan, Thailand, he went all over the place. So he he similar thing. He's like, you know, the body moves in a certain way. So all martial arts that, you know, if you really get down to the fundamentals, they they have a lot in common. So, anyway.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:18]:
It's almost as if between martial arts, it's just the doctrine that changes, but but the the moves are the same and maybe even how you stitch them together changes or or, stays the same. But maybe, how or when I don't know. You know, the the differences are subtle. So in I've done martial arts for a good number of years on and off. That that's always been my thing. I'm like sine wave.

Sean Old [00:10:41]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:42]:
And I'm sure you've had students like that. But, one thing I've always noticed is that it does attract, artists and thinkers, and I've I've trained with some of the deadliest nerds, that you'll ever ever find. So tell me how and and creative. Tell me how your arts and design background tell me about the arts and design background and how that kind of, feeds into the martial arts part.

Sean Old [00:11:10]:
Well, so I was, I think the most the earliest kind of beginnings of that was I was a dyslexic kid. I hated school. You know, I went in there, kind of having to yeah. It was the eighties again. You had to stand up in front of everybody and go to your special class. And, my best friends were the kind of kids that could read a book in a night, and it was I was, like, unbelievable to me. And, it was just a way to escape school, basically. I just sit and draw for hours, at school.

Sean Old [00:11:42]:
So, and I just got into drawing, and I was like, yeah. I wanna be I wanna do this. Like, I love it. But, ultimately, I think at the end of it, it was really just a creative outlet. It wouldn't have mattered if it were, music or drawing or, martial arts. So what it I just it was a creative outlet that I could access the whole time. Like, yeah, I had to sit at my desk. I had to, like, be quiet, but they couldn't stop me for drawing.

Sean Old [00:12:08]:
So just I draw all day. So, so I got to a level where I was able to go and study in China. And on my, you'll see on my maker card that I, I have a stamp on there that I got when I was studying, traditional Chinese painting in China. And that means a lot to me, and, that's why I put it on these, these knives. It's kind of a cool, unique, maker thing that I think would be difficult to take if anyone was interested in doing that, which I'm sure they wouldn't be. But,

Bob DeMarco [00:12:44]:
So this is what you're talking about?

Sean Old [00:12:46]:
That's just my shitty doctor signature, and then my, and then that's the stamp my teacher gave me when I went to China.

Bob DeMarco [00:12:54]:
So so that stamp signifies what exactly?

Sean Old [00:12:58]:
It was my Chinese name,

Bob DeMarco [00:13:01]:
Say it again. So do you speak Chinese fluently?

Sean Old [00:13:06]:
No. No. I was only there for a couple of months, but it was, like, in I lived with them. It was just it wasn't like a school. I, like, lived with them, and we were, like, master apprentice type thing. It was it was weird. I was, like, 23. Yeah.

Sean Old [00:13:19]:
23 when I got there. And, yeah, he actually had a separate apartment that he so I didn't I it was we're on the same floor, but different apartments. And, yeah, we just painted all day. And and, I got okay with Chinese, not fluent. I mean, I can, like, chitchat kinda, but really bad accent. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:13:44]:
Well, I I have a theory about accents. It's like, Americans are expected to have an excellent accent when they speak anyone else's language. But when anyone else comes to America and speaks English, they don't have to have an American accent. So I have I have completely disavowed the need.

Sean Old [00:14:00]:
Plus, it was a little different over there. I mean, I remember one time we went to, like, the next city over. It was, like, twenty minutes or thirty minutes on the highway. Yeah. And, they could barely understand them. Like, the accident was so heavy. It would be like if I went to, like, the deep outback in the Australia or something. Like, it they were, like, rolled down the windows to get directions, and they were trying to understand.

Sean Old [00:14:23]:
I was like, woah. That's crazy. Twenty minutes. Twenty minute drive. Yeah. So it it so they told me you know, they taught me kind of the local accent and then, like, kind of a general accent. It it was it was hard. It was hard, but it was interesting.

Sean Old [00:14:37]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:38]:
So, fast forward to 2020 or so, it's it's the pandemic. Krav Maga School has been closed down, and you start to think about making knives. Tell us about how that happened, that evolution of that idea, and how you brought it to life.

Sean Old [00:14:55]:
So like I said, you know, I I have this art background, so I have a design background. I was doing, you know, I've done lots of stuff. I I was doing the logos and things like that. So, I I was like, I want to design a knife specifically with these sort of features that I'm looking for. And, I went around and asked a couple of makers, and, you know, it's just hard. They, you know, they're busy. I I understand that now. It's you got a lot of orders, and, you just get busy.

Sean Old [00:15:28]:
So I I had a problem, finding someone to make this design that I made, and I was and finally, a guy at that I knew from PROV was like, let's just do it, man. Let's just get you making knives. And, originally, I kinda thought, well, it would be nice to be a knife designer. But I kinda I kinda took to the the sculpting, I guess you'd call it, or or the, you know, putting the bevels on. I kinda took to it, and I was like, I've I've found I didn't think I would, but I kinda found something in the actual making of a knife by hand that that was really rewarding. And so, yeah, I made a bunch, started just kinda selling them on, yeah, Instagram, and, just kept kept doing it. Originally, I was doing, custom orders, and then those started backing up too much. So now I just do, like, drops.

Sean Old [00:16:24]:
So I get, you know, a bunch ready and and drop them for that that's the quickest way for me to, to get as many knives out as I can because it is I'm definitely still a dad first. So, you know, right now, I don't get to devote the time I would really like to to it. So Yeah. I get I get done what I can.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:47]:
I noticed on your website, you have a picture in your gallery where you're showing, it's it's sort of a double edged karambit, and you show the the finished product next to the the drawing. And I was like, oh, this guy can draw. I didn't know about your art background, but I could tell, because I have an art background, that you you have a very steady hand and you can draw. And, I I really noticed that right away. Yeah. That mahes, m a a

Sean Old [00:17:16]:
h t. Yeah. That was the first design that I that I wanted somebody to make for me. I just couldn't find anybody to make it.

Bob DeMarco [00:17:25]:
So you made it yourself. And and that that brings me to my second point is that, stock reduction knife make there it is right there on the left there. That that drawing next to the knife, I I saw that drawing and, you know, I do a lot of I've got books and books full of knife drawings, and, those are very fine. I was gonna say none of mine look as as sure of sure of hand as those, but, beautifully done. And, but stock reduction knife making is kind of sculptural. Right? You know, you're you're you have the slab of marble. You're gonna remove everything that's not David or or whatever you're you're sculpting. And, I I I've made a couple of stock removal knives in my time, and at some point, I'd like to get back to it because I think that if I devoted more time to it, I'd be pretty good at it.

Sean Old [00:18:17]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:17]:
Because I was always pretty good at sculpture. So I I, I feel like it's a similar thing, different tools, different material.

Sean Old [00:18:24]:
Yeah. Yeah. And that's where it starts. I mean, that's this was the book that I just I you know, it would I just if I had an idea, I would draw it down and then, like so then from there, I would make, like, plastic, mold that I could, like, get in my hand and actually feel it because, you know, I don't know, 8080% of the drawings don't really end up working the way that you think. It relates for me. And then, once I make that, I make some changes to it back and forth, back and forth. I did a mini on that first knife that I made. I mean, it dozens and dozens.

Sean Old [00:19:04]:
I finally got it where I wanted it, and then, yeah, you just put it on the computer, make a silhouette, and I get them, New Jersey Steel Baron. Thank you. I, can buy the steel there and have them water jet cut it, and then I get the blank. And then, and then, yeah, you you put the the bevels and everything on it. And, yeah. And then these wraps, you know, the wrap with a huge still still working on these wraps, trying to get them just right.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:35]:
Well, actually, I wanna talk about that in a second. I I because that's what initially, the fact that it was, a Paul style knife and I'm because the Maimushi is the one that drew me in to your work. And I love the call style knives, and I must have been on a vendor looking at pictures of them. And, but then when I saw the the sukamaki wrap, I was totally drawn in. I I absolutely, love these.

Sean Old [00:20:06]:
Right.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:07]:
Well, I guess let's get into that now. Tell tell us a little bit about how you learned how to make this. And and let me preface this by saying, and I mention this all the time. I'm sure people are sick of hearing it, but I love this style of handle wrap, not only because samurai, fought with knives and really knew what was up, but but look at that. I mean, you have alternating peaks and valleys. It's perfect for grip. And, so and you do it very, very well. How did you learn about this and and get into it? Why did you adopt it?

Sean Old [00:20:40]:
Well, so, it was act I just seemed more accessible at the very beginning. I was like, chord. I can get chord and I can rap. And, yeah, I have, like I said, history of martial arts. I enjoy, Japanese martial arts. Yeah. Like you said, a big nut, all kinds of samurai things. You know? And, just the idea of having, like, a nice clean wrap, which my early ones were not.

Sean Old [00:21:15]:
It takes a long time to figure out how to do this, but, to do it and do it well. It did me anyway. Maybe somebody else would would, excel at it a lot faster. But, yeah, it was, once you once you really put a tsukamaki, Japanese wrap through the its paces and you test it, and you get your hand wet, and you get your hand oily, and, you you stick the hell out of stuff, and you, you operate it in your hand, and you live with it. Once you go I I don't know. I don't go back. This is for me, this is it. Yep.

Sean Old [00:21:59]:
Like you said, we got, like, automatically just snugs the fingers behind the grooves in there no matter your grip. I like it for if you are inclined to change how you're holding the knife. So edge out, edge in, tip forward, tip if you're gonna be moving the the the knife around your hand Yeah. It just makes you got these little, dimples that your fingers can grab into and that it just hold on to them really well. Like, sometimes you see a g 10 knife and they have, like, a, you know, a little circle. Yeah. And for for indexing, exactly for that, well, this thing is full of them, and it doesn't matter where you grab it. You're you're you're on a you're secure.

Sean Old [00:22:52]:
So it's just it made it it just the wet doesn't matter. Sticky, slippery stuff doesn't matter. Gloves don't matter. It it's just incredibly, grippy in every different direction. And I like the bigger diamonds. You know, sometimes you can wrap them with smaller diamonds with a thinner cord. And those are also very grippy, but I like the, like you said, the fingers that actually it sucks into them. I mean, it just it's the most secure grip that I could find.

Sean Old [00:23:25]:
And so once once you use modern materials so these are, you know, it's not silk. And silk's great and everything, but I want actually like it to be, not silk because I wanna seal it, with this, I use this Ultra Super Glue stuff, and it just soaks right in. And, it also if it does get scuffed, I've done some videos. I need a YouTube channel so you can actually search the videos easier. But where I take this and I rub it on a brick, and I get it all scuffed up, and then you just take a lighter and hit it with a lighter and it's back to new. Like, that kind of stuff is is invaluable, as far as I'm concerned because I want I want this package to be all you need. And Yep. You take it and you can do what you need to do with it.

Bob DeMarco [00:24:16]:
Well, I, talk about it a lot because because it affects me, especially, but my right thumb, I don't have I did a little nerve damage to myself being stupid, in my right thumb, and I don't have the feeling I used to have. And I used to be able to manipulate knives and all this, and I can't do that as much anymore. But with the tsukamaki and this style of tsukamaki because not everyone folds it and twists it. You don't always get this high peak. Yeah. Sometimes it's just crossed over, and that's cool too.

Sean Old [00:24:46]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:24:46]:
It's a real slender, but, this is my preferred, because you can I can count on it when I'm changing grips, and I can't necessarily feel it because I don't have the nerve feedback? Yeah. So this is you know, really works great for me. But, what else was I gonna say about that? Oh, it's escaping me. But anyway, yeah, it's the the fact that you take it and you twist it and then pull it back against itself.

Sean Old [00:25:18]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:25:18]:
That that keeps it real tight and and gives you those those peaks.

Sean Old [00:25:23]:
It's a really great design. And, yes, I agree. I do like, like, I mean, they can get thinner. That's pretty thin, but, it's still still got enough. And sometimes, you know, I'll have a cord wrap where I just do a complete flat cord wrap. So I do that too sometimes, and they they supply a good grip and but, you know, it's whatever everybody in anybody's interested in. If you want it to be a thinner profile and easier to conceal or whatever, I guess. I mean, not that I I don't know that how much difference, you know.

Sean Old [00:26:00]:
But some people, they they're gonna like you know, you gotta figure out what you like and what's gonna work for your particular way that you carry and that kind of thing. So I have done cord wraps that are just, thin cord wraps too. Just just flat wraps.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:16]:
So I remembered what I was gonna say when I just spaced out, and that was that this, style of, handle wrap also precludes the need for a guard. You know, we're talking about something that you're you're using in a gross motor situation, not to pull your name into it, but, you know, you're you're using a lot of strength and you're not necessarily using your, you know, finesse or whatever. And, a guard is is not is not gonna be practical for a, drawing it and and b, getting indexing it. And so you can't rely on a guard to not slide onto that blade when you're using it in a power situation. You got your thumb and you got the wrap.

Sean Old [00:27:00]:
Yeah. Yeah. Your thumb wrap and then also the shape, you can so, like, James Williams talked about this a lot. Have you ever had him on? You have not. Right?

Bob DeMarco [00:27:12]:
I have.

Sean Old [00:27:12]:
You have? Yeah. That's awesome. I'll have to go watch that one. I'm sorry. I missed that one. So he's talked about

Bob DeMarco [00:27:18]:
dude. I I really like him.

Sean Old [00:27:20]:
Yeah. So I and I agree

Bob DeMarco [00:27:22]:
with him. 500 miles away.

Sean Old [00:27:26]:
But, he you know, these these kind of neutral handles, when they you know, they're thinner here and thicker here, so that's naturally making sort of a stop for your hand. Yeah. I have an old this is one of my collection, you know, one of the the old Sikhi Oh, okay. Hand saw. Same thing. Like, it doesn't need a guard, especially if you're, you know, thumb capping. I'm a big proponent of thumb cap. Always thumb cap.

Sean Old [00:27:54]:
And that is what I'm trying to recreate with the Mamushi here, except it's just asymmetrical. It's instead of being here and here that's stopping that grip from coming down. Yeah. So your grip is here, and it's working against that getting wider. But it's the same thing with the Mamushi. You can feel it in your hand, except it's just this finger because these three go up here and then the meat of your hand down here. So there, when when you really test this, like, you know, I take it and I put it in a tree or something that is not going anywhere, you can feel the pressure on the butt of your hand and this finger here, your ring finger. I put a lot of emphasis.

Sean Old [00:28:42]:
I don't know if it's from, martial arts, but I really put a lot of emphasis on these two fingers, for the grip. But also you know? So you add the tsukamaki wrap, this these two flares and then the the thumb, this thing is not going anywhere. And, yes, like you said, the guard isn't isn't around to get caught up on the million different things that it could be caught up on when you need it. That's why yeah. A lot of time like, this this particular design, this harassment, this right here

Bob DeMarco [00:29:20]:
Swill?

Sean Old [00:29:21]:
Toil. Yeah. That's where these two fingers go in this particular group. And that's, like, for me, that is how I index things. But I always try to think about, yeah, like, if I'm stabbing something and I hit something really hard, because it doesn't have to be, you know, it could be concrete. You could miss something and hit concrete. I mean so I I always stab stuff as hard as I can that is not going anywhere like a tree or something Just to feel with these designs and, like, the hawk here.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:52]:
Similar. That is so beautiful.

Sean Old [00:29:54]:
That's a similar kind of idea. Like, I I don't want things to get caught up in in the guard or where the guard might be, but that's where your your hand goes and I mean, your your finger sits there. And, again, I've taken all my designs and hit them as hard as I could, and, they don't go they don't go anywhere. And and, tsukamaki wrap is also part of that.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:23]:
Something interesting about that. This is the Mamushi mini, and then I have the Mamushi, the large this one I carry horizontally front scout.

Sean Old [00:30:31]:
Yep.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:31]:
And then the Momushi, I carry because it's thin enough, and I'm starting to lose some Christmas weight. This one I wear on the in the inside, 03:00. But it's great. I mean, I it's optimized for a normal use. If this is like an EDC, this is the only knife you have on you. It's really great in just standard, grip, you know, with the edge forward and the tip up. It really feels so comfortable like that. You've got a thumb swell there.

Sean Old [00:31:02]:
You've

Bob DeMarco [00:31:03]:
got this, swell here for the for the rest of your fingers. So it really works great in all grips.

Sean Old [00:31:11]:
I I wanted that's what I wanted. A lot of, you know, my particular system, when I think of martial arts with a knife and protecting myself in a super close quarters situation, The Bacall or the reverse edge or or, you know, size grip is king. As far as the work I've done with martial arts and the testing and pressure testing and all that, this is the king. This thing is so difficult to deal with in, super close quarters. I mean, it's just unbelievable how powerful it can be. A lot of people are like, why is the blade so short? But, you know, we we talk about that later. But I wanted something that if I were to access it in whatever way it was, if I was picking up the off the ground, if it gets knocked on the ground and I had it in a the not optimal position Mhmm. I can still it still feels really good.

Sean Old [00:32:11]:
So like you're saying here, yeah, the I I wanted a saber grip. And I I realized that if I had this pommel in this particular sort of off, you know, in this asymmetrical way, I still can palm I can still, cap it with my thumb. Yeah. There, but when I'm in foregrip, it, like, bites into my hand. So imagine my fingers here are fulcrum. My thumb is putting pressure, and the more pressure my thumb puts on the spine, the better it grip it grips into my hand. Yeah. But it actually ends up feeling real real great for, like, yeah, normal test or a slash or or whatever.

Sean Old [00:32:59]:
I mean and then, obviously, for stabs, it's still supported by the meat of your hand. Yeah. And, obviously, tip up, edge in feels really good because it's it's the same.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:13]:
Yeah.

Sean Old [00:33:14]:
And so, yeah, I just wanted it to be able to, like, work in all kinds of different ways to hold it. Cap it with your finger, cap it with your thumb. I carry it like this quite a I when I'm working, sometimes my kids will run up and I just put it like this against you know, so this would be the sharp edge. I haven't sharpened this one yet. So, this would be the sharp edge, and I put it like that, and I just kinda hold it with my kids running up on my chest. I mean, it's not going anywhere. It's not poking anybody. Yeah.

Sean Old [00:33:43]:
But it's a good it's it's it's just I was I was interested in how people would consider this because the handle is kind of weird looking, and, I a lot of people, though, seem to get it just on-site. They're like, yeah. I wanna try that. So, yeah, it was a call grip, reverse edge grip was my main mindset, but I wanted it to where I could grab it in any configuration and it would still be able to be used.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:10]:
I I like the, I like the scenario you set up where it's dropped for instance, and you're grabbing it. Or or even if you're grabbing it from your belt, you know, it's not like, you're training in front of the mirror. You have someone on you and you you grab it however you grab it. It's gonna work, and it's gonna feel good. And and the whole point about, it being in forward grip with with this portion digging into your it doesn't dig it comfortably, but it butts itself up, and nestles itself in that part of your hand. It's really, you know, a solid connection there.

Sean Old [00:34:45]:
Yeah. Good. Okay. Yeah. Because, you know, pressure testing. You know, it's like I think it's so important to pressure test your stuff. So you gotta get some people on you trying to beat the hell out of you. Put them boxing gloves on, whatever, and and see how things go.

Sean Old [00:35:03]:
So all of these that I've designed have have undergone those kind of, conditions.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:09]:
Well, let's let's see some of those other knives. We've talked about them. I'm actually quite a bit. Let's let's see some of the others.

Sean Old [00:35:15]:
So, I have Tiamat here. This is one that was a a tester. So it's bit beaten and bruised, but, just an I I wanted an EDC, a dagger. So, and, of course, I like my Japanese wraps. Yeah. And, again, similar idea. I wanted it thin to thick to aid in where your hand you know, if your hand's going forward or your hand's going back, it's coming with you. So that's a Tiamat.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:49]:
So if you're if you're just listening, the Tiamat, it's a it's a about a three inch dagger, I'd say, and it's it's got a sort of coffin shaped handle, Symmetrical, you know, with a with a, swale in the middle on both sides, widens out towards the pommel and the ricasso there. And then with a tsukamaki, wrap, it looks totally sure in hand.

Sean Old [00:36:12]:
Yeah. It is. It feel it it feels good. Yeah. So that was, you know, that was the idea. Like, it's kind of an EDC dagger, similar size, seven inches, overall. And then, yeah, we have the the wraith, I think it's so this is the full size. So this is a very, you know, inspired Japanese style.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:35]:
Kind of a budget.

Sean Old [00:36:37]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I I have this is the nine inch version, and then I have the, the, eight inch. So I made two two different versions just for, again, you know, somebody wants something different. And sometimes I'll I'll put these and I'll knock these, guards off. But, yeah, this one actually has a has guards on them. And, again, I'm trying to make it it's a more neutral handle, so it's a lot easier. But that pommel, I'm trying to make, easy use in every configuration that you can hold it.

Sean Old [00:37:16]:
So it feels good.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:18]:
You mentioned James Williams before, and, having him on the show, he was the first guy to sort of, show me that. And not I mean, I guess I knew it intuitively, but but he you you don't need a downward hooking blade to use a knife in the call. He he showed using one of his kind of upswept Quaken blades

Sean Old [00:37:38]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:39]:
And that reverse tip down edge in. Absolutely. Like, oh my gosh. Yeah. And just seeing you kind of manipulate that, it's the same sort of concept.

Sean Old [00:37:48]:
Yeah. And then, yeah. So it's yeah. So anything that's gonna make this well, like a side. Anything that makes that l shape is going to be something that you can use at in in that in that way, which for me, like I said, is extremely, important. Because so with a small knife, you're taking away the chopping. Right?

Bob DeMarco [00:38:12]:
Yes.

Sean Old [00:38:13]:
That's I put I'm I usually make my handles and blade lengths roughly the same, if not the blade lot, shorter. Because I want the the leverage in my hand. I don't want the leverage on the blade. That's great for chopping. When you have a long blade, a longer blade, so like, yeah, like this like the Now you have you have some chopping and slashing. So now the leverage is up here. I'm I'm good with that, especially you get, like I have a too. You get a big big boy.

Sean Old [00:38:49]:
Now this is super, super chop. This is extremely powerful. But when you have a smaller blade, like, this is the seven inch Momo machine. I the the it has slight use flash, of course, but the chopping is not as powerful. I mean, you can still chop, of course, finger. But, this is really what makes this thing shine is being able to use this configuration. You know, it's just it's just a different principle. But, yeah, you can use, this is a a new a new, dagger that I've just designed off similar similar thought to the Tiamat, but, a little more sticky.

Sean Old [00:39:39]:
Mhmm. But still, I wanna be able to use it in that, yeah, that can like like you said. Even if the even if the blade is swept up, it's still gonna make this hook here.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:52]:
Yeah. And that point is still gonna puncture and and go into whatever it is even if it's slightly off in terms of its, arc. Yeah. But you you raise an interesting, concept that we don't hear too much. We hear a lot about balance on a fighting knife. Oh, the balance should be right near the front finger or the forefinger, that kind of thing. But you're talking about leverage, and those are two very different things, but both super important.

Sean Old [00:40:19]:
Yeah. From from from my point of view, leverage is the in these types of knives, in a scenario where so and you're talking about knife knife fighting. It's like a like a duel sort of thing. Then, yeah, like, maybe some of the the the mindset thing change. But for me, it's I'm thinking like a modern situation. I've been a, you know, enclosed environment, multiple dudes or or whatever. Somebody bigger than me, somebody stronger than me, more than one person, and I'm being suffocated. I don't have a whole lot of room.

Sean Old [00:40:59]:
It's not like we're in an alley and two they're like, come on. That's a different kind of thing. I'm talking about I need to access something here and and be able to work, like, with inches. Yeah. So for me, that is now I want it in my hand. I want all the weight. I want all the strength in my hand so I can lever this thing and and, you know, do what I this is control. So I can control things and cut at the same time.

Sean Old [00:41:32]:
It's kinda like, even the biggest, gnarliest carnivores that are they don't they don't have giant things. You know, they they have claws and fangs, and they're not very big. Even 1,500 pound, Kodiak bears, you know, their claws are like well, yeah. They're like about this big. Yeah. That's all you know? Because it's a close it's a they're tight. They're close. Horns, you know, they're huge because they want space.

Sean Old [00:42:04]:
They're like, get the fuck. Get away from me. Yeah. But a but a predator operates on super close quarters. And, not that I'm not trying to say that the mindset the predator mindset, it's more just like, what in the modern day, right now, what am I more, like, an ambush, somebody on top of me without me really knowing what's going on? That's the kind of stuff that I I designed for. So if you yeah. You just kinda think of that mindset like I actually have check this out. I have a this is a smile without one tooth.

Sean Old [00:42:44]:
Oh, wow. I got a cat, dude. Yeah. Because I wanted to look at it. I wanted to study it. Saber tooth cat. Yeah. And the the tooth isn't like this.

Sean Old [00:42:56]:
It's like the sharp the part that's out is like here. Yeah. So it's still even though this is a monster too, it's like halfway.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:06]:
Yeah.

Sean Old [00:43:06]:
It's this is millions a year.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:08]:
Like, more than that, like, more than half of that is anchored in the skull, and the business end is coming out.

Sean Old [00:43:15]:
Because of leverage. He needs it to I mean, with that kind of power and binding, if he only has this much, you know, in his mouth, it would get ripped out.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:25]:
Yeah. Well, the okay. This this leads me to a point that, as a martial artist, you know, you'll you've seen these kind of disarms. You you have a knife coming in like this, and then you kinda do that sort of, wrist roll thing.

Sean Old [00:43:37]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:38]:
Well, if the knife is, much smaller, you're not doing that. You're getting cut and Well, harder. Yeah. Exactly. Because you don't have that long, blade to leverage the knife out of the hand. You've got a longer handled, shorter blade. You're gonna get cut if you try that.

Sean Old [00:43:56]:
And that's kind of the chaos of a, true you've done martial arts. You know how it is when, kind of technique and stuff is there, but chaos is just going crazy. You got two a a guy or two guys on you, and you're on the ground, and it's it's it's going things are going crazy. There's there's floor. There's wall. There's I mean, it doesn't even have to be someone trying to, like, do a cool disarm on you. It could just be I want everything to be strong on this hand. That's why, you know, if you look at, like, this is, you know, this is the, handle to to blade.

Sean Old [00:44:42]:
Mhmm. So I have I have a ton good luck trying to lever that out of my hand. I mean, it could happen, especially if you take a shot and you're all groggy. I'm not saying anything perfect, but I've just tried to design for the most, secure thing that I can get. And, sometimes, I even like to put my, if if I'm in this configuration do you ever do this this joint? Two hands? Yeah. Two hands, like, body? Yeah. This this is this is sucks. Deal with I mean, for the for the person dealing with it.

Sean Old [00:45:15]:
And sometimes I'll, like, run my hand down on top of the blade there. And, now now how much leverage do I have? I have this whole thing is leverage and just this is, I mean, this is just such a difficult thing to deal with.

Bob DeMarco [00:45:32]:
That is cool. I've never I've never tried that in sparring or anything like that. I've always done I've I've done this for, like, power, but but that is yeah. Yeah. Good luck trying to pull that out.

Sean Old [00:45:43]:
The again, it's just I it's like a why is the why is the box cutter, carpet cut you know? Why is it the way it is? It's 90% handle, and you have this much little razor on the edge. Because that's all you need, especially when you're dealing with, like, organic medium. It doesn't have to just be a person. It could be a stray dog on your kid or or, you know but you're dealing with something squishy on something hard, which I mean, you could put three steaks on a on a cutting board, and I'm gonna with this tiny little blade, I'm still gonna go through that. So it's just a different it's just a different kind of mindset. I I just think of that, like, claws and fangs are the way they are because they're meant to operate super close, super tight. Horns and antlers are the way they are because they're meant to I mean, don't get me wrong. They're still awesome.

Sean Old [00:46:36]:
I mean, large knives are awesome. I love them. I have them. I collect them, but it's just a different mindset. Yeah. It's a it's a pack hammer and a sledgehammer. They're just different.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:48]:
Yeah. And and it's the difference between dueling, so to speak, and, defending yourself in a mugging. You know? It's it's a it's a totally different scenario.

Sean Old [00:46:58]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:59]:
You know? Defending your honor or defending your person as you walk down the street. You know? Yeah.

Sean Old [00:47:05]:
If somebody grabs you and puts you in a broom closet and there's two dudes on you and stuff like that, it's just it's about room. I might not have the room to be able to draw my awesome foot long blade and to train myself. It's room.

Bob DeMarco [00:47:21]:
Yeah.

Sean Old [00:47:22]:
It's space.

Bob DeMarco [00:47:23]:
So let's let's talk about how you make these things. So what is what's your process? You mentioned the New Jersey, New Jersey Steel Baron who definitely is a Baron at this point. He he he is like or he they that company works with so many different great makers. Tell tell me about, it's kinda soup to nuts how these things get made.

Sean Old [00:47:45]:
Well so, yeah, it starts with the drawing, then we make, then I make a tester, you know, actual, like I said, usually plexiglass or something like that. And once I get it finalized, I send it off. Bear Verint, I get my blanks, and then,

Bob DeMarco [00:48:02]:
system a computer file or or Yeah.

Sean Old [00:48:05]:
I I I take it. Yeah. So, you know, I like I said, I did graphic design, so I know Photoshop and things like that. So I take drawing, put it in Photoshop, and then send them a digital file. And then they send me back a blank, and I put the, bevels on, heat treat it.

Bob DeMarco [00:48:24]:
Do you heat treat in house?

Sean Old [00:48:25]:
Yeah. And it's that's why I also like $10.84. It is tough as hell. I mean, it I mean, this year, I might look into some sort of a newer super steel, maybe a MagnaCut or something like that. But right now, I have tested this stuff. I mean, I have videos of me. I mean, I can just put it in, like, a shed and just pull it down, and it retains its edge pretty good. You know, it still shaves a, shaves a fingernail.

Sean Old [00:48:55]:
But, yeah. So ten eighty, though, ten eighty four is notorious for, like, consistent heat treat, and I just want everything to be consistent. Like so, anyway, yeah, I heat treat in the house, and then, yeah, I clean it up, put a handle on it, final edge, make the kydex sheet. And, yeah, I this, the handle is probably the most time consuming part because I'm really trying to get to that tracker dam level, man, because Yeah. Man, those things are incredible. So that's that's my that's my goal is to get to where I look at my stuff, and I'm like, okay. It's it's on the on par or just close. At least close.

Bob DeMarco [00:49:44]:
But you're you're talking about a guy who files his blades. You know?

Sean Old [00:49:48]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hand filed. But those those wraps, man, they're they're really special. So, and then yeah. So that that's that's kind of the process. And it it depends on what like, lately, yeah, like you said, I've been doing some satin blades.

Sean Old [00:50:06]:
But a lot of times, I'll leave the patina on there from the heat treat.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:09]:
Yeah. That's what I want.

Sean Old [00:50:11]:
Yeah. I like that. And I'll also, I will use some, gun blue on them sometimes. It just kinda helpful for us.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:19]:
Let me let me ask you this question about the Supersteel. You mentioned, perhaps, doing, like, a MagnaCut run or something like that. For for knives like this, which admittedly, you know, I've I've had these for, about a month, and I've used them for for other things. I haven't gotten in any fights. Thank god. So I've used them to open up stuff, but I don't cut I don't cut food with them, or anything like that. Is MagnaCut or something like that necessary, for the blades themselves, or do you think, as a maker, that's more of a a move to to sell them to people who are, just interested in super steels?

Sean Old [00:51:02]:
More of that. Morbid. It's it's kinda like pea people again, you have to kinda find what you like, what works for you. I've I'm not I don't have a whole lot of experience with MagnaCut yet, but if I understand, it's pretty good on on the rough prevention. So if that's important to you, if you live in, like, you know, Florida or something. But, ultimately, yeah, I I mean, I like this deal because I can get it consistent, and it performs pretty damn well, I think. But I have had requests for, yeah, more, you know, fancy pants steel. It's kinda like taking extra time with the with the wrap.

Sean Old [00:51:50]:
It's it's sorta just feels right to make it as best that I can. I can like, my early raps and stuff, I I go back and look and I'm just like, yuck. They but, functionally, they're gonna be a % the same. Yeah. Kinda hastily thrown together Japanese wrap will function pretty much the same as a really nicely done one. But I just can't help myself. So I haven't, yeah, I haven't gotten into the super steels quite yet, but like you said, it is main focus. I want you to use it.

Sean Old [00:52:27]:
I mean, it is I want it to be a tool. Like you said, I've used this many times for all kinds of of different tool reasons. Yeah. But, ultimately, yeah, it is made to use against an organic situation. And, again, it's not just people. It could be a dip dip dip dip dip dip dip dip dip dip dip dip dip dip dip dip dip dip

Bob DeMarco [00:53:03]:
I'm I'm out of my steel snobbery phase right now.

Sean Old [00:53:06]:
Yeah. Okay.

Bob DeMarco [00:53:08]:
But, you mentioned it, and and actually your point is is very apt. There are a lot of very humid places in The United States and elsewhere. I know. But, and these are knives that are really meant to be worn close to the body. You know, they're they're carried close to the body and, you know, for that dire situation. But if you're wearing carrying it day in, day out for that, situation that you hope never comes, you don't want it rusting on you. Yeah. And that actually is a a pretty legit reason to to maybe venture into a, offering different steels.

Sean Old [00:53:47]:
At first,

Bob DeMarco [00:53:48]:
I was thinking, you don't need MagnaCut on one of these, but that's why Spyderco uses it in their salt series. It's great for corrosion resistance. And we all know how much sweat is horrible for a blade. You know, I've got a bunch of TOPS knives before they started using one fifty four for their smaller knives. That would rust right along the edge where they don't have that Yeah. Extraction coating. So, that is a good point. I'm glad you I'm glad you brought that up.

Sean Old [00:54:13]:
You know, that that you I'm sorry. You just said Spyderco. It made me I I actually have this this is the knife that made me upset with with, with reverse edge. This was the one. I saw it in the catalogs in July, somewhere o eight, o '7, I think, this came out. And I immediately was like, what is that? I need that. This you know, the first time I'd ever seen a wave. Uh-huh.

Sean Old [00:54:48]:
I was like, yes. Of course. And then just this funky kinda handle. I was like, what? And so as soon as I got in my hand, I I understood exactly what it was going on. And it ever since then, that I've been obsessed with that mindset.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:06]:
That's funny you mentioned that because I remember seeing that and being like, what is that? That is ugly and blah blah. And and, that was long before. And, you know, Spyderco, man, they they are, they're trendsetters, and they they have their finger on the pulse. That was so long before, the call became cool, you know, like Yeah. Like, ten years before. And, yeah. I need I've always kinda wanted to get my hands on one of those. And they even call Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:34]:
The p apostrophe call.

Sean Old [00:55:36]:
Yeah. The call. Yeah. It's, South Nark or I I'm sorry. Now he's he's called the

Bob DeMarco [00:55:43]:
Oh,

Sean Old [00:55:44]:
Craig Douglas. So

Bob DeMarco [00:55:45]:
Yeah.

Sean Old [00:55:46]:
Yeah. Craig Craig Douglas, and I think that was that was their kind of, like I'm I'm not saying they invented this idea, but this was the first time it really, like, clicked for me. And as soon as I got it, I was I never went back. I never went back. So

Bob DeMarco [00:56:01]:
I I have one of his,

Sean Old [00:56:04]:
clinch pick. Ship works, isn't it? Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:56:06]:
Ship works. Yeah. That's right. I have a I have a clinch pick, and that that's a cool knife. But I gotta say, it's very much optimized for that grip. Yeah. So with the tip up edge in, because you're doing a drug deal, and the guy's over here in the car. He reaches over and you pull it out.

Sean Old [00:56:22]:
You know?

Bob DeMarco [00:56:22]:
That happens to me. I like

Sean Old [00:56:24]:
I like both of those grips, but for me, this the utility of this part, the the grab, it's too this is too powerful, and the it's too much of an ally because you can grab and move things around. It's it's a control.

Bob DeMarco [00:56:42]:
And also that tip that is center line or or even, facing up a little bit more really optimizes, landing it without having to change your wrist much,

Sean Old [00:56:55]:
you know, when you're when

Bob DeMarco [00:56:56]:
you're doing, like, a back fist.

Sean Old [00:56:57]:
That's right.

Sean Old [00:56:59]:
So as we wrap here, Sean, I I wanna ask you, like, what where do you see things going in terms of your design? I know as you have more capacity and more time and stuff, I'm sure you'll be, doing even more and more in terms of, output. But in terms of design, where do you see things going?

Sean Old [00:57:19]:
Well, I'm always designing new ideas, trying trying out new new new things. Like like I said, this guy this guy was just, I took I took a Tiamat and, and played with the blank. And so it ended up I ended up with this new type of design, and I really liked it. So a lot of times I'll do that. There I have one called the hummingbird. I don't have an example of it right now, but, and it came from a hawk playing with a hawk design. So a lot of times I'll just play with these blanks and, end up with something new. But, in the distant future, I would love to figure out how to, yeah, get into, I've always been a fixed blade carrier.

Sean Old [00:58:10]:
I love fixed blades. For me, again, testing, pressure testing, trying to get a holder out when someone's on top of you, grabbing your arm and trying to control you, punching you at the same time. It it it just adds another level of difficulty. At that being said, I I do like the option. I do have I mean, like like I said, I I carry folders sometimes, if if it's, necessary. So, eventually, I would like to figure that out. That would be pretty neat to do a folder. And, I have an idea for a flashlight that I'd like to make because, you know, I have a lot of people come in and they're they wanna train a knife, you know, a Krav, but or I did.

Sean Old [00:58:53]:
And sometimes I still do private lessons, and, they'll ask me about knife work, and they have, like, very little or no martial arts experience. And I'm like, I don't like that, me personally, because of the someone could take it away from you. If you're not used to it, I don't I I was on a flashlight. Like, I was like, why don't you start with a flashlight? Because you can you can strike with it in a similar way to get you into, the idea of using a tool, such as a knife, hammer fist, and so on. But you can it's also just kinda built in situational awareness. You know, if you go out to your car at night, you're, shining a little in the parking lot or the under underneath the garage. It just sort of it makes you not as smell as good to a predator. Yeah.

Sean Old [00:59:53]:
Yep. If you just you have that awareness about you. So, that eventually would be would be nice, but I'm not sure how to get that going quite yet. That's that's kind of far down the road. But I have an idea for one that I'd like to do.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:07]:
That's cool. I I like those kinda aspirational, designs, like finding out the kinda things that you wanna do once you know how, or once, you know, those avenues open up. And plus the thing I like about flashlights too is you can blind someone without stabbing their face. You know? That that also looks good to a jury, I would imagine.

Sean Old [01:00:25]:
A %. And that is part of the I mean I mean, I look the way I look. A jury is part of my, you know, part of what I have to think about. But, also, again, if you're not super familiar with martial arts or you haven't really pressure tested yourself or situation a whole lot, If a knife skitters and clatters to the ground in a violent encounter that hasn't quite gone to a lethal situation yet, you know, just like you're dealing with something and a knife flatter scatters, now it's a lethal situation. Both both people are gonna look at that and be like, okay. Pillow time. But if a flashlight skidders to the ground, it's like it's a flashlight. Yeah.

Sean Old [01:01:06]:
So the those those kind of things I I I try to think about too. That's also why the sheets I do I do kinda have notoriously tighter sheets. Like, when you first get it, it takes a little bit to break in because I want them solid. Do not want this coming out under a situation where you do not mean for it to come out. If you're just dealing with drunk dude Joe and, you know, now a knife is in play, that's no good no good at all.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:34]:
That's why it's important for people who actually train in martial arts and think about these things and pressure test them is important. That's why it's important for those to be the people who are making the actual knives because those are the considerations that go into it. Sean, I wanna thank you for coming on the Knife Junkie podcast, sir. It's been a real pleasure talking with you, and, my man, I love your work. And Thank you. And the Mamushi and the Mamushi Mini. We didn't even talk about the Manuki yet, but we'll talk about that in the, in the next interview. Okay.

Sean Old [01:02:05]:
Thank you so much, man. I appreciate it. Appreciate you. And, again, I really appreciate you having a forum for us, smaller dudes. So I really appreciate that, man. Thank you.

Bob DeMarco [01:02:15]:
There he goes, ladies and gentlemen. Sean Old of Gross Motor Gear. Really, really beautiful self defense knives, not only, in their usability and and purpose driven design, but also in their execution there. Gorgeous knives, and that might come from the fact that the man is an artist.

Bob DeMarco [01:02:49]:
So go check them out on Instagram. Also, you can go to grossmotorgear.com. Alright. For Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DeMarco saying until next time. Don't take dull for an answer.

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