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Announcer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:18]:
I'm Bob DeMarco. On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with Andrew Farlaino of Trained Monkey Blade Co. I've been following Andrew and Trained Monkey for a couple of years now, having been initially drawn in by their obviously combat oriented designs. But what keeps me consistently excited about their knives is the contrast, between their unapologetically aggressive profiles and their undeniably pretty and refined looks. Think scary blade, precise grind, beautiful handle. We'll meet Andrew and find out where the idea for trained monkey blade co originated and what it's like been building a family business. But first, be sure to like comment. Subscribe.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:00]:
Hit the notification bell and you can download the show to your favorite podcast app. Also, if you wanna help support the show, you can do so on Patreon. Quickest way to do that is to go to the knifejunkie.com/patreon. Again, that's the knifejunkie.com/patreon.

Announcer [00:01:17]:
The Worksharp Professional precision adjust sharpener lets you sharpen your knives with confidence and consistency. Get yours today at the knifejunkie.com/worksharp.

Announcer [00:01:29]:
If you search Google for the best knife podcast, the answer is the knife junkie podcast.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:37]:
Andrew, welcome to the knife junkie podcast.

Andrew Farlaino [00:01:40]:
Bob, that was, like, beautiful intro.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:42]:
Well, thank you.

Andrew Farlaino [00:01:43]:
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:45]:
Yeah. It it wrote itself, man. Just looking at your at your blades, which I have to say, like I said, it's been a few years, and and I think I've seen them grow or or become, evolved. But before we get to any of that, let me first say thank you for your service. You're you're a former, US Marine, and, Marines have a have a close place to my heart. You keep us safe, etcetera. So I I really appreciate your service, sir.

Andrew Farlaino [00:02:13]:
Hey. Not a problem. I mean, I tell people all the time it was the best lifestyle, so I couldn't have asked for more. And, I enjoyed it so much, so I feel selfish when finding people like you say thank. So

Bob DeMarco [00:02:24]:
Well, hey, it it it works if it if both of us, gain from it. That's the best way. Well, let's get into, how you came up with the idea because from looking at your website, I have a I have an inkling, but but fill us in on how this happened.

Andrew Farlaino [00:02:39]:
You know, it's, it's a long time coming. So I served from 2004 to 2013. And during that time being a infantry marine, a ground a machine gunner, it it's funny when people think of marines because we're the first to fight. We're the shock troops, yet we get the worst gear and equipment, and that's including blades. We were issued blades. I won't name the companies. It is what it is. It's government contracts.

Andrew Farlaino [00:03:09]:
But we were just issued knives that were just total garbage. And being overseas, you use a knife all the time, daily, multiple times a day, and a lot of times, it's not for knife related purposes. It's you're opening ammo cans or MREs or you're digging in the dirt with them, And they were just failing. They were just breaking. So I knew I could make them, but I just didn't know how. Right? It was I'm busy. I'm always deployed or training. But when I get free time and I'd actually be back stateside, I was fortunate enough that there was a place on Marine Corps Base Hawaii called the Bob Shop.

Andrew Farlaino [00:03:52]:
And the Hobby Shop, imagine this full suite of car bays, equipment, welders. You could take your car in there or work on it for free, and you'd have these old retired marines kinda to show you. But they also have, like, a paint shop, a ceramic studio, but then they had, like, this dingy, old, like, warehouse dungeon. And I took one look in it, and it was a blacksmith studio. And it was just awesome. Right? So one day, I was actually building a hot rod at the time, so that's why I was there. And while I'm working on my car, I'm just like, you know, I'm gonna go and see what this is about. And I walk in and, I mean, just imagine the most crusty old marine.

Andrew Farlaino [00:04:36]:
That's who was running the place, just this hard looking individual. And I asked him what it is, and he said, blacksmith. And I said, what do you do? And he's like, I make knives. And then that was the beginning of my knowledge of knives, but he was very honest with me. He's like, I don't make good ones, but I know how to make them. So he showed me the basics, and after that, I was just hooked. Just absolutely hooked. I mean, it was so fun.

Andrew Farlaino [00:05:05]:
It not only was it you're learning and creating, you're also it's like therapy. It's stress release. It's it's all of these things that every creative person needs to occupy their mind and and go on, you know, and be happy and vent and decompress and do all these things that artists do, but mine was just making knives, a tool, and it just skyrocketed from there.

Bob DeMarco [00:05:29]:
Well, as we, before we started rolling, I mentioned to you I have interviewed and become friends with so many, former marines who make knives, and, it it's amazing. I mean, disproportionately, more marines than any other branch. And, and I I have some theories growing. Part of it is the love of weaponry, which, I'm sure many marines have. But also, I I think that there's an orderliness to it, that I've I've witnessed, I've noticed in every marine I've I've ever met.

Andrew Farlaino [00:06:03]:
It's it's discipline. The there's no denying it. You know? And Jocko Willink, for example, he has the saying discipline equals freedom, and it's true. It's if you're disciplined enough to wake up early, you get more done through the day. If you're disciplined enough enough to study whatever trade or whatever you wanna do, you're gonna excel. And knife making, although there's, like, secrets and magic that people say, the truth is it's just a discipline trade craft that you have to follow somewhat rules in order to make it successful. So discipline, yes. I mean, it's, like, step by step.

Andrew Farlaino [00:06:43]:
It's your process. Right?

Bob DeMarco [00:06:45]:
It's your process, but you're also inheriting some of it, and then you're making it your own, is is what I assume. Oh, yeah. It's like with most things. But let's go back to to when you were deployed. You were talking about the crap knives you were, issued, and you don't wanna mention the companies, and that's fine, but we all know. But, where were they breaking? Like, how how and where were they breaking on the knife?

Andrew Farlaino [00:07:09]:
Well, I everything from simple to extremely dramatic. Simple ones would be you go and, you know, you have to, open up a lid on, like, a 50 cal ammo can, and they have these little wire tabs on them. So you would stick your knife and sometimes, not even the tips, they would break, like, halfway through the blade or bend to then EOD technicians would be digging in the dirt, and they would you know, they're probing for IEDs or they're finding trip wires, and they would get it stuck maybe under a rock, and they would try to crank it out and literally banana the knife. So, I mean, it's and that's no exaggeration. It's

Bob DeMarco [00:07:53]:
So do you think that's poor heat treat for, due to, like, the numbers? You know, you're, we gotta make 50,000 of these things.

Andrew Farlaino [00:08:01]:
That it could be a lot of things. You know, numbers is huge, so some stuff slips. I do know of 1 company, though, that issued knives to us. And about 6 years later, we came to find out through the company actually dissolved, they were receiving just terrible metal from overseas. So that could be something too. You know?

Bob DeMarco [00:08:24]:
Yeah. Well, let's go back to that Krusty shop where you had your first introduction to knife making. You said it all clicked there. What what exactly clicked, and and and how did that, evolve into your current day process?

Andrew Farlaino [00:08:40]:
It was a intimate thing. I mean, knives, it's widely considered the knife as the oldest purpose built tool. And so there's something very intimate about making a knife, and it's hard to explain. But when you make this knife from scratch, it's almost like you're connecting to the past. And for me, when I was making these knives, I mean, in the first 100 were not too good, and yet I felt so accomplished. I felt like I was doing something significant even though I was making the oldest purpose built tool in the in existence. For me, it was like it was purpose. I could do a lot of things, whether it's in academics or sports or the military.

Andrew Farlaino [00:09:31]:
But for me, making knives, I mean, it really fulfilled my heart. It just felt right and good. And when your mind and your heart are like this, and then finally they intersect, I mean, man, that's a good feeling. Right? So and everybody I think everybody kinda finds that in life whether it's very early or later. So I just so happen to find it, like, mid twenties.

Bob DeMarco [00:09:56]:
Yeah. I mean, hopefully, everyone everyone finds that. I mean, that's, that's great when those things intersect. You're you were talking about the connection to the past, and that and that made my mind go into a whole bunch of different places. But, I think of, certain knife makers come to mind, with that. And and that connection to the past is so powerful. And I think that people who use knives on a regular basis, such as, military people, who have a life or death connection with that tool, not necessarily like they're getting in fights with it, but they're they're they're doing things, in their day to day that if they can't accomplish, they're in trouble. So they're relying on this tool, and, that is, that is something that so I Daniel Winkler is a guy who looks to the past, and his his knives, you still see it.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:47]:
You know? I see some of that in in your knives too. Tell me about your your style and how you developed it.

Andrew Farlaino [00:10:57]:
I developed it through a lot of failures. Like, I mean, endless, endless times in the shop of failures. And I tell people all the time, you know, it's it's a everyday pursuit, and yet there are buckets full. I mean, you know, that's a metaphor, but there's bucket full of failures, in our shop. But for me, I would say were Japanese aesthetics and performance with military grade hardware and purpose. Right? I love Japanese aesthetics. I love Japanese craftsmanship and really, you know, the kaizen concept of perfection with failures and always trying to really achieve that even though it's not possible. Right? And so for me, I mean, I grew up watching Rambo and Commando and all these things, but I also grew up watching, you know, Harikari and seppuku and 13 samurai and all these Japanese films.

Andrew Farlaino [00:12:03]:
And I just looked at their weapons, and they were so beautiful. And I knew I wanted to recreate that with my own style with a military influence into it. So for us, it's very Japanese aesthetics, yet you've seen we're not shy on using wild materials.

Bob DeMarco [00:12:26]:
Mhmm.

Andrew Farlaino [00:12:28]:
And, really, that's kind of our design philosophy, though, because we're one of the few, if not I you know, you have so much, so maybe your research says otherwise. But I don't know too many other custom, like, tactical knife makers that you could go to the website. The customer could say, I want that one, but I want this done to it. And we say, okay. So they pick a profile. If they want like, I mean, I've had requests for grandfather's ashes to be put in knife handles to a bunch shredded $100 bills to the wildest things, and I'm like, let's do it. Right? Like, why not? Who am I to say no? It pushes our our envelope on our skill set too, so it's always a learning experience.

Bob DeMarco [00:13:14]:
Yeah. Yeah. Send a whole bunch of extra $100 bills because we haven't done this before. There might be a failure rate.

Andrew Farlaino [00:13:19]:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Bob DeMarco [00:13:21]:
Yeah. Yeah. So you know what? When I was describing your knives up front, scary blades, you know, the Raiden is my favorite. I love a double edged tanto, and so few people do it. So, that's that's my pick so far. But, so scary profiles, also extreme. Like, your, it's a a Quaken style that's just so long and slender. It's

Andrew Farlaino [00:13:45]:
it's The Bushido?

Bob DeMarco [00:13:46]:
The Bushido. Yes. It's terrifying just to look at. So scary profiles. But then when you look at the hollow ground blades, I remember when I first started following you, that was, I was rediscovering the hollow grind, and I was like, oh my gosh. Everything I wanted everything with a hollow grind, and I I really admired yours because they seem so precise. They look so precise. This is the one right here, the Raiden.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:10]:
This is Yeah.

Andrew Farlaino [00:14:11]:
That's that's a bad boy right there. I love that. That's my wife's favorite too. God.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:14]:
That is cool. So, yeah, taken in by the by the nasty shape because I love I love tactical. I love combat fighting knives. It's just my taste. It's not that I'm out there fighting with them. It's just my taste. So I love the way they, the the aggressive profile and then that super precise hollow grind and the and the punch line is always immaculate, everything. And then the handle is the wild card.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:40]:
It's it's where it's where things go crazy, and I really like that. Tell me about that contrast.

Andrew Farlaino [00:14:46]:
Well, it's like, a real good example is our seppuku model. It's based off the traditional Japanese, like, fighting tanto of, like, 5 to 6 inch blade. Right? So we take a traditional design, but then we develop geometry that allows it to be extremely sharp, but also, like, user friendly in the field. Because what you'll notice a lot of times is some grinds are are, like, so extreme that the user really can't sharpen them. So the seppuku, we take it, and we take that hollow grind all the way up to the spine. But if you've also noticed on our Tantos, we don't have that distinguishing line that separates the tip from the belly of the blade. Our hollow grind goes all the way to the tip. And the reason why we do this is we've tested out so many different grinds, and this allows the tip to be extremely strong on a tanto style.

Andrew Farlaino [00:15:47]:
Like, very, very strong.

Bob DeMarco [00:15:49]:
It also makes the tip very a lot thinner out of that and and probably penetrates a lot better.

Andrew Farlaino [00:15:56]:
It does. You know? And even our Fen rear, that's based off the finished Pucco design, and yet that hollow grind is super dramatic, super steep. So all the way from our belly to our tip, we just try to maintain that edge geometry that's just like a razor blade. And I'm gonna let you in on a secret, though. The reason why we do a hollow grind is, yeah, it looks awesome. But the truth is is when I learned, I I was terrible at flat grinds. I was, like, terrible, man. So I started hollow grinding, and I heard all these nightmarish stories about hollow grinds, how hard they were, and it just clicked for me.

Andrew Farlaino [00:16:37]:
So early on in my knife making journey, I started hollow grinding because I was terrible at fracking.

Announcer [00:16:44]:
You crazy.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:45]:
About that. That because that is the reverse of what you often hear. People usually start the other way around and and make their way to hollow grind. That's, that's pretty cool. And then and then you get to the handle. Right? And and okay. Okay. So first of all, I was on your website, today just to brush up, and I was like it it reminded me my dad went through a period of time, where he loved Bentleys, you know, Bentley cars.

Bob DeMarco [00:17:11]:
And And he wasn't gonna go out and buy a Bentley, but he'd go to the website and he'd say, I think I would get this color with this leather and, you know, Bob, this is this is gonna be my Bentley. Like, okay, dad. I'll get it for you. But that was that was the experience going on your website. I was like, oh, I'd get 80 crv. Oh, 3 v? Maybe I'd get 3 v. And because you offer 4 different steels, and then you offer 4 different coatings or 3 different coatings and then a host of, different blade handles and then couple of other things. How are you able to do that efficiently?

Andrew Farlaino [00:17:45]:
It's it's tough. K. It's real tough. But, you could get on to our website, and just like you said, you could see all those standard options. And but then you get on to our Instagram, and you're like, well, there's so much more to this. And what we offer though is a client to pick that standard option. But then also at the very end of the order process, there's a note section, and it specifically states if you want anything done to your blade, including coatings or handles or carry options, write down to the best of your description and knowledge, and I'll get back to them. So they submit a order, it emails me, and I look at the email, and then I personally contact the customer, and we just talk.

Andrew Farlaino [00:18:34]:
And the reason why I wanna do this is, I mean, if you look at, say, one of these blades and that's $350, it could go up in cost. But the reality is is for most people, $350 is a lot of money, especially for a knife. And most people that we do business with, they're buying this as, like, a graduation gift. They're buying it as, like, a present for their husband or a gift for, you know, their deployed son or daughter. So we want to offer them a full suite, full bespoke custom blade at a very reasonable cost, but with a warranty that ensures that they really have a good peace of mind. And the reality is is so many people said don't offer that level of custom experience because it's gonna be a headache, but we've developed our own processes that my wife and I, we really it really fuels us and our purpose behind the business to offer that. So it's become this thing of a little bit of headache, but so much customer service and respect and love that has come back to us that has then created repeat customers. And for us, that's such a beautiful thing, and it's no longer a headache.

Andrew Farlaino [00:20:02]:
The process is so refined and so easy now. But initially, when we started doing it, it was just via Instagram. And that was tough because there's so many things and options out there that people want. And going through Instagram messaging, you know, a 100 messages, it it was terrible. So now the website has really streamlined the process, and we have different things we do with ordering and with vendors, so that helps too.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:30]:
Well, you mentioned well, first of all, I just wanna say, like, when you start your own business, you get to decide what kind of business you wanna make it, and you get to decide the kind of customer experience you want your customer to have. And most likely, that's based on the kind of experience you yourself wanna have. K. The the challenge is, of course, to make it fly. Part of the way you make it fly, you just mentioned, is your wife. I think a big part of how you make it fly. And, you mentioned that the 2 of you came up with the process, and I'm interested in that because, you know, my wife is we we have we both are strong people with our strengths, and she has her strengths, and and I have mine. And hers is the organization and that kind of process creating.

Bob DeMarco [00:21:18]:
What was it like? What what is it like working with your wife, and how has, what has she brought to your business?

Andrew Farlaino [00:21:25]:
So initially, my wife and I, we worked for a different company doing very weird things for government research and design projects. So we already worked together in although limited capacity. She was quality control. I was research development maintenance. Right? But we already worked together, and we loved working together. I mean, she's my best friend. So when we started this business, it was always a goal of making a family business that we could give to our kids. But, initially, we know what we have to do, and it has to be we have to work together.

Andrew Farlaino [00:22:02]:
We have to make this cohesive and everything. So working with my wife is like this dream, and I'll tell you why is because she levels me out in ways that I don't. She has this organization and this ability and this attention for detail, and her eyes see things differently than mine. And it's noticeable throughout the day, but then it's also she's very behind the scenes in the shop. She's in the shop working with me. I mean, it's just today, we busted out, like, 50 sheets, right, or a big order. And she's doing things and learning, and I'm doing things and learning. And, collectively, we come together to make this happen.

Andrew Farlaino [00:22:52]:
And she has her thoughts on the business, and I have my thoughts on the business. But at the end of the day, it's all about how we make it successful because we wanna pass it to our kids. So the truth is is it's not possible without her, but I'm also very, like, sad and depressed when she's not in the shop. You know?

Bob DeMarco [00:23:15]:
Like,

Andrew Farlaino [00:23:16]:
is she I just need her there. You know?

Bob DeMarco [00:23:19]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Farlaino [00:23:21]:
Companion and company and attention to detail and a different set of eyes and hands on the product.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:26]:
I think in anything, I mean, whether whether it's a family business or not, having having a partner that you can work with, who you're friends with, but also someone who will, balance out whatever your deal is. A good working relationship is invaluable. It is. You know, can make can makes can give you, put wind in your sails and and it when things are tough too. I wanna talk about your process, like, actually, how the knives are made and how they're designed. I guess let's start with design. Where where do they come from? And are you a drawer or or or a draftsman, or are you a computer guy? Tell me about your design process a little bit and the inspiration.

Andrew Farlaino [00:24:09]:
Yeah. I mean, typically, a design pops in my head about 10:30 at night, and then I can't sleep. You know? And and I I spend all night staring at the ceiling thinking about, like, how can I make this work, proportions and geometry? And that's just the way my mind works. Initially, most designs just come from us. It's like I wanna make a drop point blade this length. I want it to look different, perform different. I want these materials to be different than anything that anybody's doing. Right? Or what's happened as of recently is companies or other people will come to us and say, hey.

Andrew Farlaino [00:24:52]:
I want something along these parameters. Can you make this happen? So then I'll take their feedback and design a knife. Now I don't draw, and I'm not a computer guy. And there's a website called knifeprint.com, and it's a 2 d CAD design system. And I just design all my knives, 2 d, CAD, DXF files. That way I could, you know, print them out to scale. And it's a very good website. It's very limited, but it does what most knifemakers need.

Andrew Farlaino [00:25:31]:
It provides drawings. So we do that. I print them out the scale. I'll make test samples and test and test and test until it's good to go with us. And then after that, typically, that first, like, 3 or 4 we make, it's just what I want. It's the materials I want, and then we'll put it on our Instagram, or we'll promote it and then put it on our website, and then people could buy that profile.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:02]:
So how how do you make the knives? Do you, is this stock removal, or is it forging? I know you do some forging. And how does that

Andrew Farlaino [00:26:10]:
work? So we do forging, and those are for very different projects. I mean, if a guy wants, Mokume blade, if you want Sanmai.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:19]:
Right.

Andrew Farlaino [00:26:19]:
There are certain things that you have to forge out. But we got to this point in our business where people, they no longer wanted a forged knife. They wanted 10 or 15 of the same. Mhmm. It was batch process orders. So we do stock removal, and we do all of our grinding, all of our surface finishing, everything prior to heat treat. So that's something also very different than most. Most makers heat treat, then they grind, then they finish.

Andrew Farlaino [00:26:59]:
We do all of our work, 99% of it, prior to heat treating because it's so important. The heat treat is the heart of the blade. And no matter how much cooling systems you use, no matter what your pressures are like, no matter how much material you have to remove, inevitably, you could always risk messing the heat treat up by putting the blade to the grinder. Mhmm. So we do everything, and then our final step is heat treat. Now we have developed a process that limits warpage and limits the anomalies that can happen during heat treat, but it's still not perfect. Nothing is. So we stop removal, get geometry right, heat treat, and then we do some things that are final fit and finish to ensure the blade is, like, true and perfect.

Andrew Farlaino [00:27:59]:
Well, as perfect as we could do by hand. And that's the thing, though, is all of these knives are 100% by hand. Blades are ground by hand. Handles are ground, finished by hand, sheath by hand. I mean, everything. There's zero automation.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:17]:
So, the the idea of, heat treating last makes sense to me in that steel is easier to grind when it's not heat treated. Maybe you go through fewer expendables like, like belts and such, but you run the risk of of putting all that time and energy into it and then having something go wrong with the heat treat. Does that happen?

Andrew Farlaino [00:28:40]:
It used to. I mean, that's, like, where the bucket of failures comes from. I mean, just blade after blade. But there was always I I talked to a lot of very old school knifemakers when I first started, and the ones that I really their knives were just so beautiful, and their performance was amazing. I would talk to them, and they're like, you have to develop a heat treat process after most of your work. And so I really took that, and I was like, I need to do this. But all of them were truthful with me. They're like, it's you you're gonna have to do it so you understand it, and so it's always consistent.

Andrew Farlaino [00:29:21]:
And so we've developed that process. And I would say out of about a 100 blades that we make, we'll probably lose 2 or 3 in the heat treat process. So there there are some blades that we just toss, and that's to be expected.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:41]:
Well, so from your perspective, why do you think, you said most knife makers do it the other way. Why do you think that why do you think they do it that way?

Andrew Farlaino [00:29:50]:
I think I think a lot of knifemakers, it's very comforting for them to know that they could heat treat a blank, their stock, and it's a big slab of metal, and it's square, and there's no edges. And they could heat treat it and put it in a big vise and make sure it's flat and straight and true. And then after that, they could take it to, like, a surface grinder and make sure it's true both sides. They could mark their centerline and grind, and they could ensure it's true. And so don't get me wrong, though. There are so many knifemakers out there that are phenomenal at that. I mean, industry known people to cutting edge type people. But for us, it's just so much more beneficial, especially being like a bespoke knife, custom knife maker, to do heat treat last because we could always ensure that heat treat is perfect.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:48]:
Yeah. Yeah. I I I get what you mean. Like, when you have a big, excuse me, a thick slab of steel or or an unground, piece of steel that's heat treated, you can, well, you don't have to work I I guess what I'm trying to say is when you when you grind it, you if there's less material, that's thinner material, it's more likely to warp, I would imagine. Yes. That just a big fat slab of steel. So I could see wanting that assurance, but the whole time, you gotta be nervous. Am I am I jacking up the heat treat? You know?

Andrew Farlaino [00:31:20]:
Yeah. You do. For sure.

Bob DeMarco [00:31:23]:
Well, so, once you get the once you get the, I'm sorry, the profile of it cut out, you take it to the grinder. You do everything. When you say the finish work, you're not talking about the coating naturally. You're talking about the grinding, getting the getting the blade itself Mhmm. Good to go, and then you heat heat treat it.

Andrew Farlaino [00:31:44]:
Absolutely. Yeah. Mhmm.

Bob DeMarco [00:31:45]:
Okay. Alright. So, do you do any sort of testing for the for, you know, test the heat treat and all that?

Andrew Farlaino [00:31:53]:
We do we do we do Rockwell hardness on every blade, which is kinda like the the standard. We also do bend and stress tests. And, in fact, I have a few videos on my Instagram of what we do test wise, and it's like a full 90 degrees bend both ways. It has to always return to true. We do that to there's a few things that I guess, they're kind of our secret, but it's what I learned with metallurgy in my past career that we implement in that process for heat treat for final testing, and it's I don't really wanna say

Bob DeMarco [00:32:35]:
I got you. I got you.

Andrew Farlaino [00:32:37]:
Because it's not used in the knife world. It's used in the aerospace world with magnesiums and titanium. So we do that for our heat treat, and that ensures uniformity. Because a heat treat could be beautiful and perfect from the outside, but sometimes the core is a different story. And there are times if you break a blade open where you'll have grain structure that will actually be going 4 to 5 different ways, just not enlarged or just not small. You'll could actually see under, like, a microscope on the edges. That outer cladding will be one way. The core will be a different way.

Andrew Farlaino [00:33:19]:
And then, like, the 2 little sandwich layers in between will be scrambled. So there's ways that we test to ensure the uniformity of the heat treat is good to go. So there's just little tricks of the trade.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:34]:
That's cool. You know, there there are a bunch of, old I wanna say old timers, but guys like Ernest Emerson. He was in he was in, aero aerospace engineering and stuff before he got it. Last so many interesting people, would do an interesting things go into knife making. I you know, like, I don't know. I think that's, that's pretty cool. So, how did it come to be that you decide, okay, we're we're gonna do a business, and it's gonna be a knife company, and let's go for it. Let's quit our jobs and do this.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:07]:
How did that decision happen?

Andrew Farlaino [00:34:09]:
It was my wife. It it really was. So I made knives when I was in the marines for my marine buddies, and it was just like, here's, like, the truth is, here's this kinda, like, junky knife I'm learning. Right? And I would give it to them, and they just give me feedback. And you know, marines, it was just honest feedback. So they're like, do this or do that. So I developed kind of the aesthetics and the performance of the brand initially, but then I stopped making knives. Life took over.

Andrew Farlaino [00:34:42]:
I had different careers. But then I met my wife, and she's like, what do you do? And I was like, well, I do this and this, but I also like to make knives. And she was so interested in it. I mean, she's like, wow. That's awesome. That's cool. So for the first three, 4 years of our relationship, we just had a home based shop that was just something where I could mess around with, and the knives started getting better. But she always believed in me initially.

Andrew Farlaino [00:35:17]:
But me, I was like, oh, man. These aren't too good. Like, I need to develop the skill set, and I I need to be consistent with it. So over the course of about 2 years of kinda just messing around with knives out of our home based shop, they started getting really good, and people started to notice. And then we started getting orders with 0 promotions, 0 media, 0 website. People were just contacting us. Hey. Can you make me a knife? So when you make something with your hands, it's amazing.

Andrew Farlaino [00:35:54]:
But when somebody wants to buy it, that's a different story. There's a lot of things that go into that. I mean, everything has to be transparent, integrity, customer service, all of these things, but we already dealt with all that in our prior career. So we kinda knew what needed to happen. And then I was fortunate. I have this amazing friend of mine, a childhood friend, and his name's Cody Bunderson, and he owns a large business. And one day, he asked me, what do you need? And I was like, man, I'm running out of space. I I need power, and I need air conditioning, and I need I need heat.

Andrew Farlaino [00:36:37]:
I don't have that at my home based shop. And so he's like, come over to my facility and take a look around. So we actually went to his facility, and he had this storage room slash empty bay in his facility. And he's like, take it, man. Remodel it. Make it yours. So it's like 3 phase power. It's climate controlled, which is actually very important for epoxies and resins and heat treat and all this stuff, stuff that you don't think about initially.

Andrew Farlaino [00:37:10]:
So then we remodeled, and we started this new facility. And then after that, we reached out to some folks and made some collaborations, and we started to realize people don't want 1 or 2. They want 50 or 60 at a time for either their companies or to buy and give to their industry partners, and we just couldn't keep up. And so recently, my wife and I were like, we have to do this full time. Like, it's all or nothing. It's now or never. Let's do it. I mean, if we're successful, amazing.

Andrew Farlaino [00:37:51]:
If we fell, guess what? At least we said we did it. Yeah. We tried. And the reality is is we still can't keep up. And it's not that's like not bragging. It's 2 issues is our commitment to quality and everything is a 100% handmade. So when you're getting orders of, like, 60 blades, that's 60 hand sandings. That's 60 custom handles.

Andrew Farlaino [00:38:19]:
I mean, it's it could be a lot for 2 people.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:24]:
Alright. Well, so this is interesting because you mentioned early on that making a knife is an intimate process. Actually, 2 people making 60 knives, that's an intimate process. Right. How do you think you continue translating the intimacy into, numbers? You know what I mean? Because the numbers, obviously, preclude intimacy in in a in a sense. So how does that work?

Andrew Farlaino [00:38:52]:
And, you know, you can get burnout when you do large batch orders. The thing, though, that we always talk about and strive about is, initially, it was the blade. We make this product, and we want to make it the best that we can. But the last about year and a half, two years, it's actually became that customer relation. Now when we do business with these other companies or we do collaborations, we want them to be so proud to work with us and be an industry partner that if you're doing 50 blades, you're still treating them as a one off completely bespoke custom blade because you really wanna make that person proud. Because it's also when you start getting into the money thing behind business, a lot of people get really scared about that. I'm not scared about taking a person's, like, a business's money if they want 50 blades. I'm scared of delivering a product that they can't be proud of to offer their people.

Andrew Farlaino [00:39:56]:
So it's just a constant constant striving to make that these people proud. I mean, that's their hard earned money, and then it's our family business. So if we can't make it work and if we can't make them happy, then it's like a a lose lose on our end. So burnout's a big thing, but treating it as every time a person buys a blade, it's a heirloom. They could pass it to a family member, a friend. It that's what motivates us. So

Bob DeMarco [00:40:29]:
Even, if if I'm to buy your most basic model with black g ten, That's gonna be, to me, that's gonna be a huge deal. It's a custom knife. Even if it's the plain the most plain custom knife you're gonna make all year, it's still a custom knife, and it's there's no one no other one quite like it. And that's why people like custom knives. They also like it for what you And that's why people like custom knives. They also like it for what you just said, the business relationship. I mean, that's, that is huge. That is a huge thing that, you can't replace.

Andrew Farlaino [00:41:03]:
No. You can't. And we've made so many amazing friends that they're actually friends now. Initially, it's business transaction. We want a cool blade. Here's our money. And now it's like, no. You're our friend.

Andrew Farlaino [00:41:19]:
We talk on the phone. We go and do things. And it's all because of the the knife. Right? The knife brought us together. And we always say this, and my wife was amazed at this because the knife community is kinda strange. And not necessarily strange in the customer base. It's very strange in the knife maker, the bladesmith base, meaning you will not find a more supportive industry. I mean, guys reach out to me all the time.

Andrew Farlaino [00:41:54]:
Hey, man. How do you do this? And yet I reach out to them all the time. How do you do this? And without hesitation, they're sending me videos. They're calling me. They're saying you need to do this, this, and this. And it's when you think about it, that's crazy because that's competition. Yeah. I could be taking that person's income.

Andrew Farlaino [00:42:13]:
Right? But the knife community is not that way. It is the most supportive, beautiful, like, everything's in sync. It's all the same purpose. Right? It's hard to tell people in other industries that, no. I could actually go to my competitors, and most of them, like, will sit down with me and eat dinner, and we'll talk knives. And this is how I do it. Try it this way.

Bob DeMarco [00:42:37]:
That that is amazing. That is something I hear consistently, here. And it's always interesting, to to find from people who have experienced other industries, contrasting.

Andrew Farlaino [00:42:50]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:42:51]:
Now, of course, that that can't be straight across the board, and there are always exceptions. But I have seen, you know, in the years I've been, paying attention, I've seen those people get squeezed out like a splinter. You know? Absolutely. No one wants them. So they, you know, they end up being pushed out. Something else, you were saying, the permanence, aspect of it is a huge deal. You know, you're you're you're making something. You're you're putting your creativity into it, so it's kind of an artistic process or or very much an artistic process, but you're not making art.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:29]:
You're making a tool, and a beautiful tool, in your case, in the case of Train Monkey, that will last, for generations. How does that feel? It

Andrew Farlaino [00:43:41]:
it's amazing. A really good example is I still have a 3 inch case brand leather stacked hunting knife. It's been used so much. Now the blade's actually like a little fillet blade, but that was my grandpa's. And that's what he used to hunt and skin and gut fish and prepare food at the camp. And I still have that knife and I still love it. And the sentimental value behind that knife is it's, you know, it's you can't cash that in. Mhmm.

Andrew Farlaino [00:44:17]:
And I also never met my grandpa. He died when I was 1 year old, so that is something that I take. That is his. It's a connection we have. And I get told all the time by customers, I'm you know, they want this blade, and they'll use it, but it's gonna become their son or their daughters. And for us, that is that blade transcribes, and it jumps time. And if 2 generations down the road, it's still in use or it's just sitting on somebody's shelf as a display piece because they don't want their great grandpa's knife to be ruined, that's cool too. Yeah.

Andrew Farlaino [00:45:01]:
It's a beautiful thing because the reality is is and I'm very honest with people. Anybody could go to Walmart now and buy a knife from Walmart, a fixed blade knife, And the truth is, it's gonna be a pretty good knife, and it will perform. And it will probably last their lifetime. I mean, a case in point, a buck knife. You could go to any Walmart and buy a 501 or a 502, a 6 inch clip point Bowie for 80 to $90, and that knife's gonna be beautiful. It's gonna perform well, and they could probably pass that down to their kids. But we need to backtrack in our case because we offer the customization for exactly what the customer wants, And when you develop that relationship with the person who made your blade, it's no different than when the samurai would go to the bladesmith and spec out a katana or a wakayashi for them, and they want it exactly the way they want it because that's just how they feel about it. And for us, that's it's beautiful.

Andrew Farlaino [00:46:13]:
Like, we can ask for better.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:15]:
Well, yeah. And also, when you have a, say, a trained monkey knife or another custom knife that someone has poured their, heart and soul into, that's a reason to keep it. You know? You have no reason to keep, you know, the Gerber Strong-arm. You got it. Target. You know? I mean, you know, it's not gonna tug at the heartstrings. Oh, remember remember this time. It'll most likely be, something that's, I don't know, that's a little more special.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:43]:
I can't believe we've gone this long, and I haven't asked you to hold up some knives. I know Jim has been scrolling through your your website. Let's let's see some of these beauties.

Andrew Farlaino [00:46:52]:
So here's one that's in development, and this is actually a collaboration blade for a big company, and we'll we'll be releasing these soon. But this is, once again, our aesthetics, that Japanese Tanto design, hollow grind all the way up to the spine, some serious jimping, 3 inch blade like a super nice little carry piece. Stained blade, FDE, but g ten handles, olive. Gorgeous. Just a nice straight shanked, hard use tapped blade.

Bob DeMarco [00:47:32]:
I like the tapering handle too and the jimping. That, that is the guard, you know, the way the handle widens out. I like that.

Andrew Farlaino [00:47:40]:
It is. But then we have something like this, which another blade in development, 6 inch, More or less a drop point with a deep belly, but then we're going into stabilized woods, resin handles, customer spec. Right? Brass hardware. But same thing, some super nice jimping on your thumb ramp and just like a pretty sleek, cool blade.

Bob DeMarco [00:48:16]:
Yeah. That reminds me of a, sort of a modern take of an old fighting bow, you know, kinda long and slender.

Andrew Farlaino [00:48:23]:
Yeah. Very cool little blade, but then we have something like this. Super thick 5 30 seconds. Right? 5 30 twos inch thick. No handle scales. Once again, a Tanto with a really, really pronounced, almost swedge yet false edge on the top. Just a real extreme hard use knife.

Bob DeMarco [00:48:50]:
Yeah. This one looks like a great, especially with that, thumb ramp on the on the back. This looks like a great penetrator, stabber, thruster. Yeah.

Andrew Farlaino [00:49:02]:
And this is actually going to a military unit, and, hopefully, they select it as a blade, but it has to meet specs. You know? So it has to be 30000 hours saltwater immersion with no corrosion. It has to, do 800 pound, like, linear stress test. So imagine this gets put into a piece of wood or between 2 bricks. It has to be able to support £800 continuous on it with no deflection. So a lot of things that go into it that a lot of people don't realize and, you know, as they should. I mean Yeah. That's that's our job.

Bob DeMarco [00:49:41]:
So is this, is this a, when they put out a a, call for products, when the government I can't remember what it's called, but they put out a a, yeah.

Andrew Farlaino [00:49:52]:
Like a solicitation?

Bob DeMarco [00:49:54]:
Yes. Yes. And and then you came to them, this is this is my idea?

Andrew Farlaino [00:49:58]:
This is actually, like, one of those cases of it's who you know. Right? And we work with the individual that's in that industry, and he said this unit's looking for this. Make him a knife, and I'll give it to him.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:10]:
Oh, cool. That was cool.

Andrew Farlaino [00:50:12]:
Yeah. So that's cool. I mean, if the reality is with Train Monkey, more people than just me or my wife have made it possible. It's folks like you. It's our customers. It's people who have believed in us even from, like, the very beginning. It's people that have stuck with us, and they've really opened up a lot of doors for us that, you know, it's hard. You don't you don't necessarily know what you're capable of until somebody says just do it.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:44]:
Absolutely. Sometimes that's what it takes. I I tell my daughters that sometimes you don't think you can you can do something. Like, I remember that the illustration for me was there's no way I can afford to live in that place. Yeah. And then somehow, I got I got a lease, and I was like, oh, I figured out how to do it.

Andrew Farlaino [00:51:02]:
That's how

Bob DeMarco [00:51:03]:
you do it. You keep reaching forward. There's another design, and I can't remember what it's called. Something eater?

Andrew Farlaino [00:51:10]:
Snake eater.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:11]:
Snake eater. Do you have one of those handy?

Andrew Farlaino [00:51:13]:
You know, I don't.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:14]:
That's a I wish that cool blade.

Andrew Farlaino [00:51:16]:
Yeah. And it's it's tough, man, because even when people come to our shop, they're like, what do you have available? And the reality is is a person orders a knife, we make the knife for them, we send them photos and videos so they could approve of the knife. If they approve of it, it's delivered. So we don't keep anything in stock Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:39]:
Right.

Andrew Farlaino [00:51:40]:
On hand. And even these blades are getting melded out tomorrow, so I just kept these because I knew you wanted to see some.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:46]:
Oh, that's cool. Oh, thanks, Jim. Yeah. The snake eater. That is a sweet design, man.

Andrew Farlaino [00:51:51]:
It is.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:52]:
I really like that. Okay.

Andrew Farlaino [00:51:54]:
Yeah. And that actual one you're showing right there, that's legit 24 karat gold in the handle.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:59]:
Woah. Yeah. So let's talk customization for a for a minute. Now you have, Jim, if you could go back to where you just were real quick. So, you see all these options here when you're ordering a knife on your website, but you don't see an option, you know, when you scroll down to the handle material, for instance, you don't see the option for $100 bills shredded and suspended in resin. So how does the custom side of the house work?

Andrew Farlaino [00:52:27]:
So the custom side of the house, it's either direct message on Instagram or my cell phone number that you could get from the website, or you can go to that order form. And if a person picks hybrid scales, there will be, like, another little tab that says, you know, directly reach out to us for hybrid scales, or we'll reach out to them. So if they pick hybrid scales, they submit the order. There's also a note section that they could write down exactly what they want, and there's instructions on that. But most of the time, a customer just selects hybrid scales, and they write nothing down. They just submit the order. And then I receive the order, and then we communicate directly with the customer. And a lot of them have ideas.

Andrew Farlaino [00:53:15]:
They're like, I want, you know, blues and greens, and I want some wood. Make it happen. But then the best customers are the ones that say, creative freedom. Make whatever you want. Yes. Oh, that's cool because there's so many ideas in our head just always running around. Right? And, like, that snake eater was one of them. That was actually a local lady who purchased that blade for her husband as an anniversary gift, and she said, you know, keep it in this price range, but do what you think would be awesome.

Andrew Farlaino [00:53:47]:
So it's like, alright. I'll keep it in that price range. Here's some 24 karat gold.

Bob DeMarco [00:53:52]:
Oh, I like that price range. That's good.

Andrew Farlaino [00:53:54]:
That's strange.

Bob DeMarco [00:53:56]:
Well, so, you do it a little bit differently. I gotta say, a a a lot of, well, I I shouldn't say a lot of people, but but there's a you'll see different kind of business models, and one one that is particularly interesting to me is, people who forge and then, but also make stock removal because, as you mentioned, there just aren't too many people who are ordering forged knives or Okay. The the work is so much and the juice and the squeeze and all that that you do have to do other other things. But you with this whole, customization thing, customization angle to your business is is really unique, and I think it's something, you know, custom knife collectors should pay attention to because I think there are a lot of options, you know.

Andrew Farlaino [00:54:46]:
There are. I mean and the the reality is is the options are endless. The a customer could say anything that they want. And as long as we can make it actually integral to the knife, meaning it performs, it functions, it's safe, we'll do it. Right? And that is really a quality and a buying point for our brand is the 100% customization. And like I said earlier in the podcast, so when I first started this, I was told by so many people, don't do it. Don't do it. It's such a headache.

Andrew Farlaino [00:55:20]:
But we've learned how to deal with the request through a streamlined process. But, you know, forged knives forged knives if you look at the culinary knife world, forged knives, that's where it's at. I mean, you have these, some that come off top of my head are, like, Heisenberg knives, GCK knives, oh, KWB knives. Their forged knives are beautiful, but they're making a limited amount because of the time and the intensity. And a lot of times, you're not gonna get a chef knife order for, like, 50 blades. But you'll get a chef or you'll get, like, this knife right here, for example. You'll get 50 of those, no problem. And you just simply it's not feasible to forge 50 of those out.

Andrew Farlaino [00:56:13]:
Right.

Bob DeMarco [00:56:14]:
Right. And then have them be consistent straight across the board. Yeah.

Andrew Farlaino [00:56:18]:
But if a customer says, I want 50 of these with that handle, that's much that's easier. We could make 50 custom handles. No problem. So it's just like, it's a give and a take. You have to you really have to think about what's feasible, what pays the bills, of course, but also you have to think about raw materials. And a lot of times, we do one offs because we could get enough materials. But then if a customer wants, say, 50 of these with the craziest handles, if the raw material is not available, we're honest with them, and we say, no. We can't do that.

Andrew Farlaino [00:57:01]:
So honesty is also pretty big.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:05]:
Just the boss gets the fancy handle. So as we close here, from your unique perspective as a small business, small family business, which I love, making custom knives, what advice would you give to someone who is now looking to get into knife milking? What sort of advice?

Andrew Farlaino [00:57:28]:
I would say well, there's there's a lot. The whole concept of, like, buy once, cry once with equipment, meaning I initially started I made all my equipment, including my grinders. I used, like, a homemade anvil, homemade sanders. It was a hassle. It was a pain. I would say for most guys who really wanna get into knife making, buy the best that you can and keep it limited, meaning buy the best grinder you can and perfect your grinding before you move on to any other aspect of knife making. Buy the best drill press that you can. Buy the best consumables that you can.

Andrew Farlaino [00:58:17]:
Sandpaper is huge. But buy it and perfect that skill to where you're happy with it before you move on to any other skill. Because I struggled so much trying to complete a blade when I simply wasn't happy with step a, and I'm already at step z. So really focus on a skill at a time, whether that's truing your blades, grinding your blades, handle finishing. Another huge one is sheaths. Sheaths are extremely difficult to make a good one. Like, if you're gonna do kydex or leather, perfect that skill before you move on. And I say perfect that skill, but it's really just become intimate with it and be happy with what you could produce.

Andrew Farlaino [00:59:12]:
That's probably number 1. Number 2, and maybe this could actually be number 1, make a bunch of knives and give them away to people. And that sounds counterproductive to business, but our first, like, 50 to 60 blades that we were actually very proud of making, we just gave away to people for free. And that sounds wild, but we gave them to individuals that we know that would give us proper, honest feedback. You need to do this differently. Try this. I like the way this looks, but I don't like the way it carries, so change it. Right? And out of those 50 people, I would say about 10 or 15 really stuck with us and have invested their time and their intellectual property into us and made us even better.

Andrew Farlaino [01:00:14]:
So here you are. You spend $50 on raw material, and you you're learning how to make a knife, and you spend a weekend trying to bust out a knife, and you give it away to a person. And then 3 years down the road, they're like, I remember you. Now I see how amazing your knives look or your business. I wanna support. How can I help? And that's really helped us. It's really helped us big time.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:42]:
Well, there you have it. Take that advice because it's, it's doing you some good. You can tell. Yeah. Andrew Farlaneo of Trained Monkey Blade Co. It's been a real pleasure meeting you and talking about your awesome knives and your your cool company. Thanks for coming on the show.

Andrew Farlaino [01:00:57]:
Bob, thank you so much. I appreciate it. From, you know, from our family business, my wife and I, we really appreciate people like you. So thank you.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:05]:
Pleasure is mine. Take care, sir.

Andrew Farlaino [01:01:07]:
You as well.

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Bob DeMarco [01:01:18]:
There he goes, ladies and gentlemen. Andrew Farlaino of Trained Monkey Blade Co. And, knowing my audience, if you probably know Trained Monkey, but if you don't, you gotta look them up. You will love their work. Love his work and their work, I should say. Beautiful, beautiful knives. And, you know, I've been on the fixed blade craze. I I never leave it, but I've been I've been back in this, in this, area recently.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:45]:
And, yeah, let's let's just say, take a look at the Raiden, the double edged tanto, and tell me that's not one of the coolest things you've ever laid your eyes on. Alright. That does it for this episode of the Knife Junkie podcast. Be sure to join us on Wednesday for the midweek supplemental and Thursday for Thursday night knives live 10 PM Eastern Standard Time right here on YouTube, Facebook, and Twitch. For Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DeMarco saying until next time. Don't take dull for an answer.

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