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Announcer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob the knife junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:16]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast. I'm Bob DeMarco. On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with Michael Miller of Tactile Knife Company. Since the last time Michael was on the show, we've seen Tactile Knife Company enjoy the release of some impressive collaboration knives with 2 highly esteemed makers. And now they have an exciting new collaboration, that looks to define the state of the art of folding knives and fully show off the machining prowess of the proud Texas company. We'll catch up with Michael and find out more about this, extremely desirable knife and others. But first, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, hit the notification bell, and download the show to your favorite podcast app. And if you'd like to, head on over to Patreon to help support the show.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:59]:
Quickest way to do that is the knifejunkie.com/patreon. Again, that's the knifejunkie.com/patreon.

Announcer [00:01:08]:
If you search Google for the best knife podcast, the answer is the Knife Junkie podcast.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:15]:
Michael, good to see you, sir. Welcome back to the

Bob DeMarco [00:01:18]:
Knife Junkie podcast, sir. So we were talking right before we started rolling here, that I did not have a chance to go to Blade Show Texas this year, but I was really kinda thinking I would, at least this time last year, but I sadly had to miss it. How did it go for you? You guys are, as I mentioned, a proud Texas company. I'm I'm sure you had quite a presence there.

Michael Miller [00:01:40]:
Yeah. Blade Show Texas is right in our backyard, so we always enjoy being able to sleep in our own beds and go to the show every day, and get to see the fans. The the booth was crazy slammed for the for the majority of the day, both times. So, like, man, until, like, 2 o'clock, we didn't have a chance to even eat lunch. It was kinda shoulder to shoulder, people looking at our new knives. We'll get the archer looking at a new prototype that we'll talk about later, and looking at just our our classic offerings, both from Tactile Tern and Tactile Mac Company.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:12]:
Yeah. That's, at your, area at Blade Show in Atlanta, your booth, it's more like an area because it's long and you have a lot of stuff on display. It is always, perking with, with activity, bubbling with activity because, well, for those who maybe haven't heard the the other times you've been on the show or aren't maybe as familiar, with, tactile knife company, it it it spawned out of tactile turn, a really highly esteemed pen company, down there in in Texas and, you know, known for your machining and your milling. And, and here comes this. And so that here I'm sorry. This is the long way around to say your your Atlanta setup was so big. You had so many knives, but also pens, and you're also had kitchen knives and everything. Anyway, what what's it been like defining the brand? You're a new brand, a relatively new company, but, man, I mean, you you came out so hard.

Michael Miller [00:03:16]:
So like as you mentioned, we started off as a pen company, so we have that prowess and that we have that prowess and that we have that kind of knowledge under our belt. So we didn't come into this situation blind. Coming in as a knife company, man, like, it took a long time for us to get our our feet underneath us, to figure out grinding blades, figuring out making a folder. Because, like, we didn't start off making fixed blades. We started off with a with a flipper, liner lock flipper, none none in Belize. And it really made us be able to challenge ourselves and push ourselves to the limit, push our machines and our capability of production to the limit as well, and push our team to a limit of solving problems, because we faced many along the way. The development of our slip joint later, the development of the the Maverick, which is our our crossbar lock system, as well as the development of the new Archer, has been a challenge every single time, and we've had a great team behind us being able to step up to the plate and, face whatever comes our way.

Bob DeMarco [00:04:16]:
How much do you think, it helps a knife company such as or your knife company, being in pens beforehand. Those kind of adjacent, people who buy tactile turn pens are pen nerds. Let's face it. And, and the the crossover is heavy between pens, watches, knives, lights, that kind of thing. Do you think that that sort of EDC, environment has sort of cross cross pollinated, different brands?

Michael Miller [00:04:47]:
For sure it's cross pollinated. So, like, we we definitely have drawn over some customers from Tactile Tern, but you do have a kind of a sticker shock because it's hard for to make a USA made product, and have it be affordable. Thankfully, with the scale of our pen company, we we are able to continue to have a $100 offering. Even now, we have an aluminum offering that's at $80, and it's a little bit more challenging to convince somebody to spend $80 on a pen to now spend $300 on a pocket knife. We have quite a few things that are our goals to lower those prices, but, man, operating costs, the both in the the machines, the keeping this building and the lines going, as well as keeping the employees and all the all the labor involved, all those expenses add up. And it's it's been it's been a a interesting thing trying to keep the knife company growing, trying to make it where it's self sustaining, and trying to chip away at at goals that we have. Definitely, it helps being in the EDC, community and, not just having a knife company, not just having a pen company, but having both. They feed off each other.

Michael Miller [00:05:58]:
And one thing we'll talk about, I'm sure, in a second is we've even ventured into the into the flashlight world. So we have a 14 500 flashlight collaboration with Charles Wiggins who's really world renowned in the custom flashlight community, and those are actually releasing here in a couple weeks. So we we plan to extend that extend that relationship even further with the the Cary community, not just focused on pins and not just solely focused on knives.

Bob DeMarco [00:06:27]:
I love that, and that looks like a beautiful light. It looks it reminds me of something I once saw Jim Stelton, show off. But, you know, I I'm not much of a light guy, but I I think I could be convinced, you know, by something cool. The this is a good time to get into the fact that you make everything. Is that right? How important is it that everything is USA made but also Texas made?

Michael Miller [00:06:51]:
Not only that. Like, it's our goal and it's it's our mission to make everything in house that we can. The the beauty of that is that you control the process. If you control the processes, a, you don't have to worry about the timeline of other companies, so you're not having to ship parts out and then wait for those parts to come back, or wait for people to make parts that you're needing to be able to build your products. It's all on your shoulders. The issue with that is that it creates an Atlas situation where the world's on your shoulders, and you have to do every single thing. And we continue to achieve that goal by adding more machines, adding more personnel, and adding more skill sets, so that we can refine and hone that process.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:36]:
That's, I would say that Tactile, Knife Company is a really good example. There's ongoing conversation on this show for years at this point about, more getting more manufacturing of, great knives in the United States and then making them affordable. Now affordable, of of course, is a relative term. But when you consider how everything, like you said, is made in house, made by skilled, machinists on amazing machines with incredible, materials, and you're probably also already a knife person. It's not it's not outside the the realm of possibility because you're doing it. There there may be a handful of other companies who are, but you're you're competing with, you know, the the Chinese companies that are making these spectacular knives, and you're winning at that game and bringing it in, like, at the same price or under.

Michael Miller [00:08:31]:
100%. It's our goal to compete on a global level, and we continue to strive to do that. We also, at the same time, wanna make the best offering that we can. So it's kind of a a weird balance. We're going for that upper echelon, and we're also going for something that's more budget friendly. Trying to thread that needle and have a diverse product line that are good quality products on all tiers, is definitely something that we struggle with. That's why we've we've reached out to designers. That's why we also have the, some knives that we don't produce on the production level just because we can't.

Michael Miller [00:09:09]:
So we have some knives that we try and make a couple 100 a month. We have some knives that we're only able to make 60 to 80. And with those come a higher price tag. With those, definitely change things. So, yes, we we do try and compete at a global level, but we also try and compete at our

Bob DeMarco [00:09:27]:
own level,

Michael Miller [00:09:28]:
and kind of forge our own path.

Bob DeMarco [00:09:32]:
Upfront, I talked about how exciting the collaborations are that you've done, and I wanna talk about those. But I'm gonna use the Rockwall, your very first knife. It was kind of a proof of concept, but also a very finished, like, absolute winner of a knife, like an amazing knife that that lives, you know, an ongoing life in various iterations. This is an in house design, and I know you have a really exciting in house design to show us in a little while. So, though I'm very excited about your collaborations, it's also really important and exciting to me to know, that you have the in house talent to make outstanding knives and design beautiful looking knives as well.

Michael Miller [00:10:14]:
Yeah. Our engineer, a couple offices down, Matt Palmore, he's he's really the backbone of our, our design. We work together, and we work together as a team, both from our owner Will's perspective and, the people that are passionate about knives. Like, for example, Tim, Howard, who runs our EM equipment. He's a custom knife maker, from from his before he started working for, with us, and he hopes to continue to be a custom knife maker. He even has his own private designs that we're gonna be releasing here here shortly. So, like, as a community and as a group, we're passionate about this community. We're passionate about our products, and we're passionate about refining refining those both in house and also, with our collaborative efforts.

Bob DeMarco [00:11:00]:
Yeah. I mean, that that passion is obvious. It it really shows through. And people, I I mean, in my this is, in my experience, people really wanna support companies like that where you can tell that they just, ah, they love it. I have, believe it or not, spoken to very, famous knifemakers who are are very popular, heads of very popular companies who don't even care about knives. Just have a knack of talent for it and admitted it outright. And I was like, Yeah. You're saying the quiet part out loud and, but people love those designs.

Bob DeMarco [00:11:31]:
So, but I think that when there's a real passion, people wanna be a part of it. You know, there's a pride of ownership and they and they grow to like the people behind it. They go to Blade Show a few times, they meet you, they meet Will and all the other awesome people you have working there, and they wanna they wanna help support that. I I wanna talk about your your latest collaboration because I I fell in love with it, when I knew we were gonna be talking. I went back on the website, hadn't been there in a little while, and checked in and, man, this archer, TJ Schwartz, wow.

Michael Miller [00:12:04]:
So real quick, little bit of backstory. So TJ Schwartz, is a is a prolific designer. He's designed for companies like CRKT, for Konig and for Millett, as well as even Maestro. He's really has an eye and a and a for designing. He came from a goal of trying to design for the automotive industry. So you see a lot of those sleek, really aggressive, kinda sports car lines in some of his work, and I think that that's that transfers over. So this is the the archer, and it is a frame lock flipper, utilizing as much milling and as much handwork as we can as we can offer, for still trying to say a production company. So this is as refined as we can get with the processes and the equipment that we have.

Michael Miller [00:13:00]:
There's a massive amount of milling, both hard milling for the blade, as well as for all the titanium components, 3 d milled pocket clip, and really refined to the highest level we can. I kinda call it like the Cadillac of our offering. It's we have our standard GMC, but for with the with the Maverick, with the Rockwall, and with everything else that we do. But whenever you wanna dial things up to 10, dial them up to 11, that's where the archer comes into play. 90 cup blade steel, stiff multi row bearings, kind of one of the we went as far out as we could as far out of our way as we could to make this the best offering we could.

Bob DeMarco [00:13:43]:
Yeah. I was I was, as I was pouring over the specs, first of all, I noticed that you call it a hyper knife, which I think is just cool. It's like a hyper car. You know? Yeah. It's just like outrageously engineered knife. And, I I noticed that it well, it's called the Archer. It has this beautiful, like, it looks like the the, the flights on a on a on a, on an arrow. What do you call those things? Like, feathers on an arrow?

Michael Miller [00:14:09]:
Yeah. Feather. Yeah. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:10]:
Yeah. Just beautiful texture. If actually, if you could hold it up and and let us see that, I'm not sure how close Yeah. How we can get it.

Michael Miller [00:14:19]:
We're gonna see if we can get get this showing up showing up. But you can see tactile turn was always known for its texture. We've definitely brought that over with Tactile and Mac Company and this has a massive amount of texturing on it. It's looks really beautiful whenever whenever we add the finishing work to it. We do offer a smooth model, and here's a kinda funny fact. To make a smooth knife that is contoured, 3 d contoured and machined, you over double your production time to create the handles, just because you have to add so many micro passes to remove every single line, every single layer to be able to make it where it has a glossy smooth finish to it. So we actually don't make that many smooth archers. If you happen to be able to have a chance to own 1, consider yourself lucky.

Michael Miller [00:15:14]:
And even also, like we've talked about it, this is the the hyper knife. We we pull out bells and whistles and also add inlays. This is actually copper, that's slowly heated to a point where it turns red, and it's really kind of a we add all the finishing touches that we can to make these these archers as good as we possibly can.

Bob DeMarco [00:15:35]:
So it's, already a Prestige knife, but you're you're you're doing little little flourishes. I mean, that copper, that heat treated copper is spectacular. I I happen to find that, let's see. Jim called it quill texturing. Mhmm. I find that also incredibly well, it was very nice to look at, and I I have a feeling it's gonna feel great in hand and, you know, just have, great texturing. Can you hold it up again, with the blade out? Sure. I wanna inspect it again.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:08]:
Man. Yeah. He he you know, you can see his design sense in this, especially in the handle to me. I I love his Overland model. I love his Perpetua. You you mentioned he he designed for, MasterUp. I I love his designs, and look at that. That that curve in the handle puts the presents the blade at a very useful angle.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:29]:
Very

Michael Miller [00:16:29]:
natural. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:33]:
Wow. So, I noticed that the lock bar insert Mhmm. Is also MagnaCut.

Michael Miller [00:16:39]:
We are actually transitioning that to AEBL. We we did do MagnaCut. We were just having a couple couple minor issues with production that created more scrap. The units that are out there with MagnaCut, we don't we have differential heat reading, So there's a difference in the heat treat for the lock variances than the blade. So you're never gonna have an issue with that. But AABL, being a tool steel, has a little bit more, flexibility as far as not scrapping as many parts. It's just as good, and we're not gonna we're not gonna be seeing any issues with that.

Bob DeMarco [00:17:12]:
Right. Right. Yeah. We want MagnaCut on our blades. We don't really care if it's on our lock bar inserts, but it sounds cool, basically. I mean, to me, I I read that, and I I I like it made me smile. Like, it's all part of the Hyperknife thing, the skip bearings, the the the you know, can't get more machined without looking you know, you can't get more machined. You put so much detail on it, and then you have all these super premium parts.

Bob DeMarco [00:17:40]:
Was the point of that is this all, you know, is this a a flex knife, so to speak? Is this, kinda updating people, in terms of, like, what you've learned over the past couple of years, now check out what we can do?

Michael Miller [00:17:54]:
For sure. Yeah. If you look at YouTube, you can find kinda some shop tours of our of our facility, and we're sitting on, like, $4,000,000 worth of equipment. A lot of it's turning capabilities, a lot of it's EDMs, a lot of it's in the mills, but we we have at our fingertips the ability to make pretty much anything. And we really wanted to utilize that. So, like, each blade sees the EDM 2 to 3 times. It's it's gonna be 3 times here in about a month. And then each handle has multiple milling operations, as well as the clips.

Michael Miller [00:18:30]:
And then all the turning went as as, in-depth as we could, internal lockings for the for the pivot, and really dial things up as much as we could. Also, again, I I mentioned it earlier, but the hard milling that we're doing on the blade, every 8 blades that we mill, we have to change end mills. So the end mills are what are actually removing the material, and they dull every single 8 blades. So we've got a rotating cycle of drill bits to be able to of of, milling, end mills to be able to get a very clean precise result out of our out of our in hard milling for this feathering. Because he like, we've talked about texture. There's even even texturing in this recess area that you're not gonna really be able to pick up on the camera. But really, we utilize as much as we can, even hand finishing as well.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:22]:
I I I wanna ask you since, I mean, there's no better person, no better company, in general to ask these questions to, about some of these terms of art, first of all. But but before I ask you those, I wanna just back up a little bit and say it was very counterintuitive to me to hear that contouring a handle is way more work, than putting all the the detail, all the milled detail. Because I always assumed, that that it would be roughed out and then, like, sort of just sanded or something smooth in a way that in my mind was easy to do, as if titanium were butter and you can just sort of form it. Yeah. But but you're saying it just goes over a million or, like, many, many, many, many times until, until everything's chipped away that's not that contoured handle.

Michael Miller [00:20:13]:
You still have to run it over some Scotch Brite just to get the last little ribbons of machining lines, But, man, there's every single line is a pass. And to be able to get rid of that line, you have to add 10 passes to be able to accomplish that. Not only that, you're having to do it with an in mill that is not for removing material fast, but for removing material cleanly, which again slows it down. So it just definitely adds to the amount of of passes, which adds the amount of machine time, which makes it difficult more difficult to to make. So, like, if you see smooth, like, consider that collector's grade, or consider that just as refined as we can get.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:55]:
You mentioned hard hard milling. What what does that mean?

Michael Miller [00:20:59]:
Okay. So, sharpening titanium, sharpening aluminum, it'd be really easy to remove that material, but it's not very strong. Whenever whenever you're milling, it's the exact same thing. The harder the material gets, the harder it is to mill. So hard milling is referring to milling a blade that's already hardened. So you can do quite a bit of milling in the soft state, but if you really want those crisp lines, if you really want the cons the consistency of, evenly milled as far as like, because these have to get surface ground. If you if you machine preheat treat, then whenever it comes back from heat treat, you have to surface grind it. If you want everything to be centered, you really can only have one option, and that's to mill after it comes back from heat treat in the harden state.

Michael Miller [00:21:45]:
That makes it very difficult as, again, time as expenses of the drill bits, or the end mills, as well as, just operators and even scrap rate because we have a higher scrap rate because we're dealing with removing material from the hardened state of the knife. Wow.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:05]:
Yeah. Yeah. And, so more time, more effort, but you also have to go, you know, slow, I would imagine, just to maintain heat treat. Right? You don't want fast whirring machines all over that blade.

Michael Miller [00:22:19]:
Well, in the area that it is, you wouldn't have that issue. We don't have that issue as far as, like, the heat. But if the heat treat is affected in this area, it's not going to be as important as for the edge or for the blade in the in the cutting area. But we do keep a very, very close eye on even outside processes like coatings, making sure that we don't mess with the heat treat after it's heat treated.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:45]:
EDM. I have a vague idea what that is. What is that?

Michael Miller [00:22:49]:
So it's a it's a wired process. So imagine Rapunzel and all her hair. It uses a brass wire, that is cutting away a stack of material. So a typical, like, laser has one flat sheet of material that goes buzz buzz buzz buzz, and it's done. Waterjet is very similar, except for it erodes it with sand that is mixed with the water. A wire EDM actually creates an arc on this brass wire. The good thing about that is it's a very it's the most precise way of cutting, over those three options. Laser is number 2, ED auto water jet is number 3, but EDM really has that crown because it's a very slow process that makes sure, you're removing very, a couple thousandths of an inch that is very precise and very refined versus going fast and going crude.

Michael Miller [00:23:44]:
This is like this is the goal low and slow, as far as that's concerned. One benefit about EBM though, is that you're able to stack things. So instead of cutting 1 layer of material, you're cutting 6 or you're cutting 8 sometimes. So every single time a part comes off, you have 8 parts that come off, versus a a laser is very fast, but only 1 at a time. It is still substantially slower than lasers, substantially slower than water jet, but it is a very, very precise. Therefore, that's why we rely on it for the archer.

Bob DeMarco [00:24:20]:
It's slower, but but do you save time on the tail end in terms of cleaning up? You're saying, if the other methods are more crude and you have to do more cleanup.

Michael Miller [00:24:31]:
Typically, whenever you're talking about water jet, you're gonna have either belt finish afterwards or you're gonna have a mill finish. So you're gonna chuck it into your mill, and then you're gonna remove the outside perimeter with the mill. The benefit of the EDM is that it's a much more refined process and leaves this much better finish. So you yes. You do save some time with that. In the grand scheme of things, it's still more of a time sink, to run things off of the medium. And to get a more fine, finish, you also have to add more passes. So we we run it fast where we can.

Michael Miller [00:25:04]:
We run it very slow where we can't.

Bob DeMarco [00:25:06]:
So in the time you personally have been, involved in the world of building things with these kind of machines, lathes and, CNCs and EDMs. How much have you seen, in your time this manufacturing process evolve or change?

Michael Miller [00:25:25]:
So we had actually had an EDM whenever we first started whenever I first started tactile in 2020. It's what cuts the internal springs for our side clicks. I don't really cut this one right right here, but there's a a spring here that allows you to reset the click. And we we bought one of those so that we could get it in house. But as soon as we started a knife company, we utilized it for cutting the handles, cutting the blades for the rock wall. And so we've always had that under our belt. We've always had good mills under our belt, but we've really refined things in the areas of surface grinding, of, bevel grinding, and, of even the mill department. We've transitioned from running slower machines to running robo drills, which are kind of like the the top Cadillac standard.

Michael Miller [00:26:16]:
They're what Apple uses very fast, very fast tool changes, very fast RAPIDS, for those that know milling terms. And it's able to really do our processes to the to the most precise, but also fast, in terms of speed.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:32]:
You know, all all this, you know, talking about producing everything in house, I mean, even making screws and that kind of thing, it it it underlines, to me the importance of self reliance and how, in your case, as a company I mean, as long as you can get materials, you know, and people show up to work, you can be making knives. Whereas, I don't know, most other ways of operating in the in the modern, market is way more risky in terms of, my material is gonna come for is my process overseas gonna sync with my, domestic schedule or whatever it is. And and, as as the world becomes a less stable place, and we've seen that fluctuate before, but still as the world, you know, it's nice to know that you have control, I would imagine.

Michael Miller [00:27:27]:
For sure. Yeah. We our self reliance means also that the buck stops with us. So if we mess something up, it's our fault. We can't blame somebody else for some of our mistakes, because again, we're not we're not ordering any of our of our knives. These are all done here. Our heat treat is done locally, and we work very closely with them. The only thing that you see on our knives that we're not making ourselves are, like, washers, stop pins, and bearings.

Michael Miller [00:27:56]:
Other than that, everything is done by us. Our pins, our springs are made 2 miles down the road, and we work very closely with them as well. We try and bring every single process we can for both companies, in house as much as we can.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:10]:
I love that I love that model. And it it like I said before, it just it should be an inspiration to others. Let's talk about this new knife that I didn't even know, existed, but you showed right before we started rolling. It's very, nice looking.

Michael Miller [00:28:23]:
Bring it back. I don't know if this is gonna be the grand reveal, but this is definitely the first buy first bullet time that it's really seen much of the light today. So this is the chupacabra. It's a in house design utilizing, the next Super Lock. And for those that aren't familiar with that locking system, it is a kind of a hook system that pushes in here. You have a stop pin that creates a triangle on the upper side of your knife, versus, like a bar lock. So there's there's nothing in the in here as far as locking system for getting in the way of the blade's actuation. I personally use my thumb, and we we make sure to give you clearance where the blade can drop on your finger before you close.

Michael Miller [00:29:08]:
But if you want to use your index finger, many people here at the shop do, you can have a away from the blade operating system, where you're not ever ever risking cutting your finger.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:23]:
That next, lock, what is that called? The super lock? Mhmm. That's featured, by, you know, on the the Civivi Vision FG, and I think we did a version of that. And, that's exciting, to me to see, new locking systems get licensed out and proliferate, like, the the we've seen the Shark Lock. We've seen the new versions of the Axis Lock and and and others. I think that's great. I love that. I mean, it's cool when a company re retains their their patent rights for it for a while, but it's also great to see other people, take it and run with it. Because, I mean, I watch snacks, like I'm sure many of us did on Instagram, sorta develop that rock.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:07]:
And so now to see it out, in a place where we can grab it is great.

Michael Miller [00:30:12]:
I do believe this is the first United States interpretation of this of this mechanism, so we're really, really happy to do that. One of the other beauties is that this was open source. So he didn't patent it, and he didn't make it where you had to jump through hoops to be able to use it. We've actually refined it because, like, I'm sure that people that have have messed with the the lead version that you referenced earlier, you can bring this lock out of out of the system, versus this has a has has a track system, so you can't dislodge this. And it took us a while to we've been working on this since, shoot, October or something like that. And really have taken taken our time on refining this. We're like a 20 something reiterate reiteration reiteration reiteration reiteration reiteration reiterations of this lock, of making where we don't have stick, making where we don't have lock, rot, making where we don't have lock fail. And it's it's been enjoyable to bring this to market, and I think this is a great package.

Michael Miller [00:31:13]:
And, also, we've done this in the most budget friendly way as possible. This should be coming in a little bit more than a bear and a decent amount under a rock wall. Oh, great. Gonna be the the cheapest the cheapest pocket clip knife that we offer, including a very deep pocket clip, that I think a lot of people are gonna really enjoy.

Bob DeMarco [00:31:36]:
Oh my gosh, man. To be able to get that and have it, made in the states, and also have that lock. And then and then let's talk about the design. I mentioned earlier, how the rock wall was an in house design, and then you had a bunch of collaborations. I know the bearer also was. And now this, it it I love seeing that, that the design shops are are are there in house as well. So

Michael Miller [00:32:04]:
this is the rock wall if you're familiar with size comparison, and then this is a Maverick. So we are smaller than Maverick, but larger than a Rockwall. And as far as the thickness, we are sitting a little bit thicker than a than a Maverick. But, yes, like you mentioned, this is an in house design. Mats had to design how the locking mechanism was gonna work. A lot of things were, kind of based off of that. Because once you have, like, a locking mechanism, for example, the the an axe crossbar lock system, you have to allow for that much space. So the the locking mechanism here, not only is this triangle in this corner for the lock, but it has this massive bar that comes back through here that, has a coil spring inside of it to be able to give it that that pushing forward mechanism, be able to, push the lock in there to keep it secure.

Michael Miller [00:33:03]:
So it's been really a pleasure to be able to to make this knife, be involved in the design team that kinda helped refine a few aspects of this, and really, really honored that, our team was able to come up with this in house.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:19]:
So, you're making this an affordable, you know, more affordably aimed knife. What materials are you looking at in terms of blade steel and handle materials?

Michael Miller [00:33:30]:
MagnaCut as always, 6334 HRC, and then we're rocking aluminum handles on this model. We, depending on demand, we may, try and stretch things all the way up to titanium, but we definitely are going to offer g tens and some of my cards as well. Another really good thing about this is that, I had a knife that I wanted to change handles on one of these, earlier today, and I was able to do it within, like, 3 minutes as my first time taking apart and putting back together one of these, one of these, chupacabas. So this should be very easy to modify if it's something you're wanting to do. We do want to also encourage, like, aftermarket scales like we did with the with the Maverick and work with some people and let them be able to produce scales if they want. You will also see some offerings from us as as well if you wanna stay direct.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:23]:
Is this one of is this the first knife you've made with aluminum handles?

Michael Miller [00:34:28]:
It is the first knife we've made with aluminum handles. We've been, tactile turn was known for making aluminum pins, since, like, its its foundation, and we've taken a long break from doing that for tactile turn as well. Last year, we worked with aluminum on a of some projects, and we're like, hey. We need to find a way to incorporate this with for the knife company as well. So this is the first first step in that direction.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:53]:
I am a huge sucker for aluminum. I love aluminum handle blades. Yeah. I just do, and and I love how they wear in. I love how they feel in hand. And, Yeah. Well, that's cool. I'm excited about that because, it's nice to have a metal knife, that's not steel, and, sometimes titanium isn't, is not what you want.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:16]:
And, anyway, I love it. I'm excited to see that. So chupacabra, how did you decide on the name? And we were talking a little bit about that before. I'm a kind of a nerd for cryptids and chupacabra. That got my ears purr.

Michael Miller [00:35:29]:
So tactile design language in house is typically very much minimalistic, classic, simple, stylish. And Chupacabra kind of goes outside of that. So that's one of being from Texas, being from North Texas, there's always the rumor about the goat sucker, which is the Spanish translation for chupacabra. Typically, you're either talking about, like, a a catless, hairless cat or a hairless raccoon or a weird looking dog. But this is supposed to be more for a demon kind of goat killing animal. So this being a little bit more aggressive, a little bit more edgy, a little bit more out there, I think that the the name suits it well. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:12]:
I do too. And very mysterious, you know, the, animals show up without any blood in them, but they have 2 puncture holes. I I like the idea of, well, you know, naming naming a knife after something that's mythical like this or or legendary like this. But but it's also kind of in keeping with the fact that you've named a a number of a couple of knives after counties. Well, the the bear and the rock wall and and really kind of, embracing your Texas heritage. I I think that's cool. Have you ever seen anything that approximates a chupacabra while out and about in North Texas?

Michael Miller [00:36:48]:
Not me personally. I've seen plenty of bobcats, plenty of coyotes, and everything else, but, not nothing personal. I will also mention that the Archer is accounting as well. It's out in about an hour and a half away from my house, Archer County. And yeah. So we we've stuck with the county names. This is the first step outside of that, and it still keeps with some North Texas folklore or Texas folklore.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:16]:
I love the sheep's foot blade because, you get all of the use of that point, down low You get a lot. You got a a nice belly there, though, and, but still a point. I like a knife. I like to know that in a pinch, you could use it as a thrusting instrument or a puncturing instrument. And, so, I I really like the blade. Is that a a flat grind, I'm I'm assuming?

Michael Miller [00:37:41]:
So everything we have right now is flat ground, with with our beveling machine, and it's probably gonna stay that way for the next couple years. So, yes, everything from the rock wall to the chupacabra is a flat ground blade.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:55]:
So to to hollow grind a blade, with a mill, do you have this do you run into the same thing as contouring a titanium handle? Is it that same concept or you're just going pass after pass except in inverse?

Michael Miller [00:38:09]:
So for that, we're really gonna have to have to stretch things a little bit. Give me a second. So, like, say this is a blade. Our machine has a doughnut, and our doughnut's able to remove material. It can't really get to the point where it's a it's able to hollow grind unless it tilts all the way like this, and then that will be able to scoop. If there are machines that do that, the people that are u utilizing that like, Chris Reese and other companies are transforming, more like a surface grinder into a beveling machine. The beveling machines that are are made for beveling, typically aren't that aren't that great at hollow grinding. It is one of their goals to be better, and we are keeping an eye on that.

Michael Miller [00:38:57]:
And whenever it is able to get to a standard that we can offer in house, and if we have the ability to, that is a capability that we've we've definitely tried to pursue and will continue to pursue.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:09]:
Yeah. I kinda had a just an inkling. I don't know where I heard it, but that it's a very difficult thing to do. You know, unless you're standing there with a with a a blade against the wheel or against a grinder, you know, doing it yourself. So that's that's kinda interesting. But, I do know from the Rockwall, which is my only, tactical knife that, man, that's a this is a flat ground knife, and this comes to such a wickedly sharp, thin behind the edge edge. This is a great slicer and also a great, it has a great point. I love this knife.

Michael Miller [00:39:46]:
We try and keep a 10,000 edge, from the from the bevel grinder. And then once it goes through tumbling, that gets a little bit smaller to closer to about 7 before we start sharpening. And we try and, again, add as much of a height as we can. So, like, for example, the the archers, height is for the bevel is on the higher side, and it makes us be able to have a good, very thin behind the edge, that keeps everything slicey. Because if it's not a good slicer, if it's not a good tool, we don't really wanna be making it.

Bob DeMarco [00:40:19]:
Yeah. I think, people are people tend to cut with their knives, and I don't mean to be facetious, but, like, you know, there there was a long period of time where everyone wanted to know that they could hammer their folder into a tree and climb up on it or whatever. They needed to pry open with their knife, but, you know, really, that isn't much needed for most of us. What they what people want is a refined, cutting instrument that also looks and feels good. And that's another thing about, tackle. It's writing your name. They feel good in hand, and I would imagine, the archer is is no slouch in those terms with that, with that quill texture. How about the chupacabra? You're you're you're gonna you're starting with the aluminum.

Bob DeMarco [00:41:05]:
Are you milling into that as well?

Michael Miller [00:41:07]:
So with the aluminum, we have flat scales, and really with this, our key being just as minimalist and as basic as possible. We we will be making options in the future that probably have the tank texturing. At the moment, this is again we're trying to go for as affordable and as as entry level as we can. So with aluminum, the way we're doing this, it is easy for us to make flat, and therefore are able to offer it at the price tag we are.

Bob DeMarco [00:41:38]:
Got you. Got you. Right. Of course. The more time it spends on the machine, the more money it's gonna cost. So, yeah. Awesome. I can't wait for this.

Bob DeMarco [00:41:46]:
I'm really looking forward to a Chupacabra. Something else, what about this light?

Michael Miller [00:41:52]:
Awesome. So, for I've been in the kind of high end custom flashlight mini for for a long time, since, like, 2014. I remember seeing Hanko at Machine Works 2015. I owned Hanko's, owned Okumas, for those that know, like, some of the top end custom night flashlight makers. And I was had the privilege to meet Charles Wiggins in 2017. And Charles Wiggins in the flashlight world is a kinda mastermind for drivers, which is the electronic boards that are used for these flashlights. He designs his own. He makes things that innovate and change the game.

Michael Miller [00:42:30]:
And this is a 14 500, which is kind of like a triple a battery a double a battery, but more like for high output. So as far as, like, your diameter that you're thinking, imagine a double a battery, with a little bit of a diameter added for the for just the casing. And then he was able to design a driver that was able to shave off nearly half an inch, from the overall length. So most things that are in this 14 500 category have about this much height to them. So being shorter, this is able to be much more pocketable. Again, we talked about our texturing. We have our tactile texturing both on the front and on the back. We have smooth in this kinda hourglass, middle section, and we're able to offer 3 modes that are non programmable, but are really great, from a 5 lumen, I believe, all the way to a 500 and something lumen.

Michael Miller [00:43:26]:
We're getting great, output out of the battery as far as how long it's lasting, and this is really just our our first first step into, the flashlight industry, and definitely an amazing first step, in my opinion. I've worked with other flashlight companies in the past, and this is this is really great for for how specialized this is.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:49]:
So wait. Is this available now, or is this something still in the works?

Michael Miller [00:43:53]:
We'll be having, the first release of these available through Tactile Turn, this month.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:59]:
Okay. Alright. I I have to ask you some questions because like I said, I'm, I'm I'm not a, much of a flashlight guy, but I can appreciate like, I love pens, and I love watches. I can appreciate the artistry and why someone would be, drawn to them. And, actually, for someone who carries, you know, an old light, I see that. And that's something, for me personally, I would buy, and then that would be the only flashlight I would never ever need unless I get hooked because you got me hooked on it. But, so I wanna I wanna find out. You you're talking about a driver and how the driver that you're using by Charles Wiggins is innovative and changes the game.

Bob DeMarco [00:44:38]:
That means not explain that to me.

Michael Miller [00:44:40]:
Okay. So again, the the circuit boards, circuit board that's utilized here to be able to host the emitter, which is what was creating the lumen, typically is able having to be in a pill, which is very thick and very large. A pill is basically like a container for the driver, for the emitter, and it takes over a large section of of the flashlight. Because we are able to to minimize that, we're able to make this piece, which is the front head of the flashlight, about a half an inch smaller. And because of that, reduced the overall length of of the flashlight. It's really, really, it's the only reason why we're able to do this in house as far as the production of this. We're not making the boards ourselves, but we are assembling and doing all all of the, thermal, applications to be able to make it where this is able to conduct the electricity. We're putting the boards in ourselves.

Michael Miller [00:45:34]:
We're getting raw board sheets and pulling them out with emitters that are already on there, applying those and then assembling these these units, adding the the clicker to the back, which it is a manual clicker if you can hear this on the microphone. And again, we have 3 modes so you can do one click and then you can do half clicks to go to pulse through the modes or you can do full clicks, to be able to pulse through them.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:00]:
I mean, what what kind of learning curve I mean, it's like, oh, okay. Now we figured out knives. Now let's work on flashlights. Like, what kind of ramp up process and r and d did it take to start on this?

Michael Miller [00:46:12]:
The r and d for this, thankfully, because we worked with Charles, he streamlined a lot of that. So all of the, like, computer side of it is not something we have to do. The the incorporation of how to assemble and how to, do the that process was a learning curve. And Kevin, who's in charge of our lead department, he's the individual that works hand in hand with Charles as well as Travis who runs our, runs a lot of our lathes on the floor. Those three individuals are really the course cornerstones of building this flashlight. We bought a a new machine a year and a half ago, with the goal and with the with the drive to be able to to make a project like this, and we were really, really glad that we were able to make this happen.

Bob DeMarco [00:46:56]:
So it sounds like you got to work with a hero, in Charles Wiggins. That's pretty cool. You know, a a flashlight hero of yours. Was this your initiative? Let's make a light cut?

Michael Miller [00:47:08]:
It was my introduction. So, like, Kevin wasn't I wasn't aware of Charles Wiggins, but it was really Will's drive. Will's the owner. He's been wanting to make a flashlight for years and since before I started working here. So 2019, 2018 probably. And it was it just makes sense because you do so many turn things to offer a flashlight as well. Because you offer something in the everyday carry side of things, offering a flashlight fits in hand in hand. So, like, I have multiples of Charles custom flashlights.

Michael Miller [00:47:43]:
So this is just different drivers, different, different batteries, and also different emitters. This has a a triple emitter, stuff like this. This is this is basically, the equivalent of a of a triple a as far as the diameter. This is a 1 inch diameter, so it's he calls this the peanut. So we're offering something that's kinda like a a middle ground in between these as far as, like, an entry level into high end flashlights. And something we haven't talked about now talked about yet is the price point. So these are gonna be coming in at at $300 for the titanium version, and we plan on doing, bronze, copper, zirconium, in the future. So it's kind of just like our pens.

Michael Miller [00:48:27]:
We're gonna offer a gambit of different finishes, different, different styles to this this product line.

Bob DeMarco [00:48:34]:
I was I was gonna ask you, about the price point because, I know that, just just, by being adjacent, I know that they are are competitive with, fine knives in terms of how much they cost. But in terms of what you're offering, is this a a a good deal in the in the pen world for a for a, for this light.

Michael Miller [00:48:58]:
I mean, I'm sorry.

Bob DeMarco [00:48:58]:
It's not the pen world. The light

Michael Miller [00:49:00]:
The flashlight. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, SureFires are on the higher end of, like, mass production. This is a substantially higher quality emitter and battery and system than they offer at a very minimal price increase. Then once you go past this, you're going into a custom realm of Hankos, which are, like, $600 base price, to $800 base price. And then you go into, Okuma, which is, like, $500 base price. Charles' custom work is 500, close to $500 base price as well.

Michael Miller [00:49:34]:
So you're this is this is flirting with, custom quality, with a production scale, which is allows us to be able to offer offer this at a at a better price.

Bob DeMarco [00:49:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say, this is like, this is almost like a custom light. I mean, if it's as far as I'm concerned, if it's being made, in small batches in a in a manufacturer, you know, and you're all self contained, to me, that's that that feels custom. You know, I mean, I guess I guess custom is when you're saying put a thing on my light or whatever, but, just to have it to have the hands on it and have each one made with care.

Michael Miller [00:50:14]:
Yeah. So, like, this this is similar to the archer as far as, like, we're not gonna be able to make hundreds of these every month. This is going to be a limited production, because of our capability, because of how much, more work goes into setting them up right, getting them dialed in. This is this is not a pen, as far as the assembly side of it, and it's also not a PIN as far as the components that are required to be able to make it work. So this is this is a step up in that. And with that, like, we've we've broken down what it costs us to make a make these, and it fits in line, with with our price tag. And like I said, this is kinda like a step up from your SureFire stream lights and a step down from your customs, kind of hopefully a gateway drug for people to see a new community because the the flashlight industry is definitely something that is unique. I've like I said, been been around it since, like, 2015 as far as the custom side of it.

Michael Miller [00:51:15]:
And, as a teenager, I had SureFire's in my in my pocket. So, like, this is a a really cool thing to be involved in.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:23]:
I know people are gonna wanna know, the availability of these. For instance, well, not just the light, but you were just holding up the archer, archer, and it caught my eye yet again, and it will catch other people's eye. Is this something they can just go to your site and buy, or what's the deal?

Michael Miller [00:51:39]:
So for the flashlight, we don't know how much demand is going to be, but we aren't going to be able to make that many of these. So we we do plan on having these released. Whenever we do release these, if they do sell out, we recommend people to just sign up for back in stock notifications. And as soon as we release another batch, get an email. Also, follow our social medias. Keep an eye on your emails. Those are where we will be informing you. So our personal Instagram social medias as well as our email list, those are gonna be the first people, that are that are notified for this.

Michael Miller [00:52:13]:
As far as the archers' concerns, the archers are currently sold out. I have a release happening tomorrow, and we have releases every Thursday. But they're very much like us, a small batch system, because we aren't able to make that many of them. So right now, I think we're close to 80 of these a month is what our production levels are able to maintain, and demand is higher than that. So just keep an eye on our social medias. Keep an eye on our emails. Keep an eye on our our website. If you see a product you'd like, sign up for back end stock notifications.

Michael Miller [00:52:47]:
And that's that pretty much sums it up.

Bob DeMarco [00:52:50]:
Let me ask you. What, you've worked with Richard Rogers. You've worked with Matthew Christensen. 2 two great designers, great makers, both been on this show incidentally. Who are the and and TJ Schwartz, also a great guy, extremely talented. Who are some other designers, if that you'd be interested in hooking up with?

Michael Miller [00:53:13]:
So right now, we're working with, Bob t, Bob Frisula. We've got a prototype for a fixed blade over here in yellow. That is by Brian Brown. So that's gonna be coming out soon. We've I've I have, worked with over 60 different companies with the other businesses I've been involved in inside of just the EDC NICE community, and I look forward to working with many more designers. We have a slipjoint from a prolific slipjoint maker slash designer, and that's gonna be releasing here shortly. Man, we've the roster is deep, and the roster of people I wanna work with is just as deep, if not deeper.

Bob DeMarco [00:53:57]:
That's awesome. Can you disclose the slip joint, or is that, under wraps?

Michael Miller [00:54:03]:
I'm I'm not gonna not gonna say names just yet. He's a he's a good friend of mine, and I really look forward to seeing that model. I've I've got one of his customs in the display case right next to me.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:15]:
I hope it's who I'm thinking of. And if it's not, I'm sure it's still

Michael Miller [00:54:18]:
awesome. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:20]:
And and then that yellow Brian Brown prototype, is that something you can bring closer up? Or

Michael Miller [00:54:26]:
Alright. So this is his Osprey model. This is definitely more of a camp chopper knife, compared to, like, the the Dredeye. So I actually have a a limited edition Dredeye that's gonna be releasing shortly, that we can do for size comparison. So this is on the bigger side, compared to the, the the the

Bob DeMarco [00:54:49]:
the size, what, 2.75 inches something like that. That looks like a 4 inch right there?

Michael Miller [00:54:54]:
I think it's 375 I think it's gotta be 4. It's gotta

Bob DeMarco [00:54:58]:
be 4. Nice looking

Michael Miller [00:54:59]:
at this point.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:59]:
I love Brian Brown's designs.

Michael Miller [00:55:01]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:02]:
That is beautiful. Yeah. Thank you for showing that.

Michael Miller [00:55:04]:
Thanks. I've hung out with him quite a bit in the Nashville shows in California as well, and it's been a pleasure knowing him, and he's been a designer that I wanted to work with. And we had a slot to be able to do a fixed blade, And I was like, hey. I think yours yours is a good fit. So we really like doing that. And then, I'll go ahead and tell a little bit of the story of the Bob t knife that's coming out soon. I don't have a a prototype. They've got handles that they're running on the machines for the for the first prototypes.

Michael Miller [00:55:36]:
The story on that one is really something else. And hopefully, whenever we have the that model coming out, hopefully, we can pop on another podcast that I can show show your fans an this example of this amazing knife. So getting into the knife and EDC community, I was always a knife collector. I carried bench base, carried Microtex as a kid. So this would have been 2014. I was just starting to get into the mid texting customs. And I I was at a flea market and was going over a a gun dealer's table, and I saw his showcase of knives. Inside of there was a Bob t, I'm not gonna say the model, from 1988 in Jim Mint's condition.

Michael Miller [00:56:22]:
And, it was $200, and I didn't have the have the cash at the time, so my dad actually bought it. And he's owned it, and he's had it since then. I've handled it. I've taken pictures of it. I've always had a, like, just really a fascination for this design. It's never come out as a production knife, and I think that that's a crying shame because it has great ergonomics, it has great lines, and it fits the tactile DNA as far as classy and gentleman's carry. It's not the the standard,

Bob DeMarco [00:57:01]:
A taxi.

Michael Miller [00:57:01]:
Yeah. It's it's not the standard tactical that you see from a lot of Bob's designs. It's more on the gentleman's side, which he's done many of those in the past as well. But this is, like, so good, and it's been a a pleasure to work with Bob and Suz, and in getting this design refined, and bringing it to modern modern interpretation. So we've we've tweaked very, very little, keeping the soul and the integrity of this model, and we look forward to showing it y'all showing it to y'all here shortly.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:35]:
I can't wait. I love his designs, and he's, you know, he's a legend and he's well, a legend for a reason.

Michael Miller [00:57:42]:
Mhmm.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:43]:
And and it's amazing, that he does still he builds all of his custom knives very by hand. You know?

Michael Miller [00:57:50]:
Very much so.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:51]:
Yeah. And, man, they're awesome. And, his wife, Susan, is also awesome, as you mentioned. Alright. So now I'm gonna have to go, rooting around in his, in his back catalog to to to develop some theories, and then we will definitely have you, back on as we wrap here. Have you thought about designing a knife yourself? And, you know, you are in the perfect place to do that.

Michael Miller [00:58:21]:
That's not my skill set. I've always been a collector. I've always been, been a fan. I've I I put my pinky finger in designs, and I don't think I'm ever gonna I I don't think right now is is the right time for me to jump in. I'm not the the best with pen and paper. I'm the person that critiques and nitpicks. I'm not the person that creates the creates the masterpiece from the ground up. So I I'm honored to be part of the team.

Michael Miller [00:58:51]:
It's not my goal right now to be, the person that's putting the pen to paper.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:57]:
Yeah. And the and the reason I ask is, that you're as you mentioned, you're a collector and are a collector and you've had your hands on so many. Sometimes, those are the best qualified. But like you said, your role in evaluating and help guiding these projects, you know, that's that's that's an even more, meta role. So

Michael Miller [00:59:19]:
I'm just a piece of that puzzle. This is this is definitely a team. We've got our operations manager right next to me in the office next door, owner Will, Tim, who's, again, a custom knife maker from his past, Kevin, who's becoming as as much of an enthusiast as as anybody, as well as many people in the shop floor that are that way as well. And this is a group effort both in the in the refining designs and the the building process of every single thing from even, like, our finishing team, gives us critiques, and gives us things that we take advice from, to refine things and just hone them up next 1%, next 10%.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:02]:
Well, Michael, I wanna thank you for coming on and, showing us, like, really showing us some of these projects that are just about to burst. I'm so excited burst onto the scenes. I'm really excited that and honored that you showed us here and, cannot wait, especially now I gotta say for the chupacabra because I know, I'll be able to get my hands on this, whereas the the archer is gonna take more discipline for me. Mhmm. And, but, man, I can't I can't wait. It's very exciting. I'm very happy to see what's happening with Tactile Knife Company, and we can all be proud, that we have an awesome knife company right here in the United States doing stuff from the ground up. So happy to have you on, sir.

Bob DeMarco [01:00:43]:
Thanks. And I look forward to seeing you next time.

Announcer [00:05:44]:
A man without a knife is a man without a life. The knife junkie.com/life. Do you use terms like handle to blade ratio, walk and talk, hair popping sharp, or tank like? Then you are a dork and a knife junkie.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:00]:
There he goes, ladies and gentlemen, Michael Miller of the Tactile Knife Company. It's been cool. This is the 3rd time he's been on the show, and it's really, fun for me to see the evolution of this company. And, I mean, they started amazing, and the the promise just keeps coming. So, very exciting. Keep your eyes peeled for the chupacabra. If you like the archer, and the light, get on their web, get on their email and, and be alerted to these drops. Alright, everybody.

Bob DeMarco [01:01:30]:
Be sure to join us on Wednesday for the midweek supplemental and Thursday for Thursday night nights at 10 PM Eastern Standard Time right here on YouTube, Facebook, and Twitch. For Jim, working his magic behind the switch, er, I'm Bob DeMarco saying, until next time, don't take dull for an answer.

Announcer [01:01:46]:
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