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Announcer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob, the knife junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:16]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast. I'm Bob DeMarco. On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with Charles Jones of Charles Jones Blades. A viewer recently reached out to me and suggested I would like Charles' work, and one look at his Instagram and website told me that that viewer was absolutely correct. Hunters, bowies, kukris, short and not so short swords are the Charles Jones blades that jump out at me the most, but his full custom orders also show an exciting variety of inspirations and capabilities as a knifemaker. Charles has a, got a very early start in knifemaking. We're talking preteen, which I have some understanding of right now, making his first knife with very simple tools. Now he makes each blade entirely by hand and in house using a variety of steels and heat treatments.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:04]:
We'll let Charles get into that and tell us all about his blades and how he makes them. But first, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, hit the notification bell, and download the show to your favorite podcast app. And if you'd like to help support the show, quickest and best way to do that is on Patreon. You can go over to the knifejunkie.com/patreon and check out what we have to offer. Again, that's the knifejunkie.com/patreon.

Announcer [00:01:27]:
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Bob DeMarco [00:01:43]:
Charles, welcome to the show. It's, really nice to have you, and it's kinda cool how you came to me because I, I you know, I'm I'm constantly scrolling for new makers. And, this time, someone reached out to me and said, Bob, I know your taste. You gotta check this guy out. That's pretty cool.

Charles Jones [00:02:02]:
Yeah. Yeah. It was it was pretty exciting. I kinda have, like, a little YouTube thing. I post I just grab it once in a while, but, really, I don't get to go to a lot of the shows. It's a little too busy for that at this point, so really cool to, you know, be on the show and be able to showcase some stuff.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:21]:
Awesome. Well, thanks for coming, and let's let's get right into it. Tell me a little bit I I gave a tease in the in the intro, but tell me a little bit about what you make and and what your philosophy is.

Charles Jones [00:02:33]:
Well, my philosophy was when I was growing up, I was really interested in like anthropology, like, you know, what did humans do in the past? And so I kinda like making everything. I I've done little knives, big knives, axes. I can forge it and, then I make it. I even, made myself a custom, sword heat treat oven so I could heat treat like up to like 60 inches myself, which makes, you know, large blades a lot easier. But really it's just the challenge of building something no matter the size just kinda gets me.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:20]:
Alright. So you're a maker. You're a you've got that creative, seed at at your core. How did you make your first knife? And, yeah, what was that process like?

Charles Jones [00:03:32]:
Yeah, the first one, my growing up, my father did the occasional, like, like artistic blacksmith work. He do like the, you know, the twisted iron bars. He did some, they like candle holders and just things like that. I always thought it was pretty cool. And, one time I was, like, 13 12 or 13, I found a little piece of steel in his garage that wasn't quite knife shaped, but it was somewhat close. And I was like, I'm gonna make a knife because he had made a couple knives, but primarily he did the the iron work. And so he gave me a file and was like, alright. Here's a here's a book on knife making and, read half the book and just started filing away.

Charles Jones [00:04:16]:
And, it didn't turn out very well, but I I still have it somewhere.

Bob DeMarco [00:04:21]:
I gotta say, Charles, maybe this is in true male fashion, or maybe it's just, I might have a similar mind. But I like how you said you read half the book. Yeah. You're like, alright. Let let's just do this. Let's embark on this. So a file and a and a piece of steel I saw on your website 5160 steel and and a file. What's it like Yep.

Bob DeMarco [00:04:42]:
Making a knife using a file?

Charles Jones [00:04:47]:
It takes more time to make the knife with the file than it did to read that giant book. The the piece of steel, I it was like a leaf spring. So it was either like 5160 or like the 92 series of steels. They use that that spring steel, but it wasn't annealed. It it wasn't fully hardened, but it was not annealed. So it was lots of scraping and scraping. And, finally, after I think a week of working on it, like, every day after school, I had something that kinda resembled a knife.

Bob DeMarco [00:05:21]:
Well, to me, that's, that's gotta be a good test as to whether, this is something you actually wanna do or something that you're actually fascinated with because for a 12 year old boy, that could that could be the start of something beautiful or the or the absolute end.

Charles Jones [00:05:38]:
Yeah. Well, growing up, I I was just had this interest in, like, how people did things in the past. And in our backyard, we had these, we'd find these stones and there were obsidian inclusions in them. And so I'd get a hammer out of the garage and I was like 10 and start knocking the obsidian out of it and start making flakes. I made a couple of spearheads and that was, you know, super fun and just always kind of like sharp things.

Bob DeMarco [00:06:06]:
You're talking about, fascination with how people did things in the past. What, where where do you think that comes from? I mean, you were saying that your dad blacksmithed, and was it maybe some of that? Or

Charles Jones [00:06:20]:
I think that had an influence on it. Other thing was he was a really big movie buff, so, like, getting to watch, you know, all of the the movies about the past, you know, you see things like like Glass of the Mohicans, you know, was a great one when I was a kid, and I always just loved how intricate things were back then. Yes. You have like, you know, an intricate beadwork on everybody's knife or you have, you know, something that's absolutely one of a kind piece that you don't really see nowadays. I mean, you go to Walmart pick up, you know, one of the, you know, there's a million of the same knife. Yeah. And, I like, I like things being a little more personal than, you know, mass production for everything.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:06]:
That intricate thing that you're talking about, that quality of intricacy that you see in old work. My family and I were visiting a cathedral not too long ago, and, I mean, every square inch on this place, they just don't do this anymore, but everything was carved stone. Little flowers and crosses and putti figures and angels everywhere. It must have taken, you know, thousands of men. I know it took, like, 300 years, so, to me, that is mind blowing that at one time there was that attention to detail.

Charles Jones [00:07:44]:
You still find it nowadays. It's just, it's not as mainstream.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:48]:
So okay. You you start making knives. You make your first knife from a file, an old piece of spring steel. How did how did it go from there? Did you immediately immerse yourself, or was it the sort of, like a reoccurring dalliance until you you you dipped in fully?

Charles Jones [00:08:06]:
After that, you know, I, went through high school and I did the occasional project. Now most of them weren't knife related. I really liked carving wood, so I'd carve, you know, walking sticks and stuff. I went through high school, did some college, you know, had to go to work. I worked as, for sure, it was AT and T on the phone for a few years, and I worked for a health care or health insurance company for a few years and that, yeah, it wasn't very fun. And then after after that is 2017, I got laid off from that job and I was like really broke and it was my oldest son's birthday. And I was like, you know, turn it like 8, like, make him a little knife. So I went out to the garage and made just a really simple little knife and, showed some pictures to some people and there are people who wanted some.

Charles Jones [00:09:00]:
So I started being like, you know, maybe maybe I should, you know, really immerse myself and start making things that I didn't think I'd ever be able to make it first, but now it's like it's actually, you know, quite, quite happy with kind of the direction I took my knives of, like, seeing like Damascus and being like, I gotta find, I gotta figure out how to make that. I gotta, I gotta practice forging knives. And then when I YouTube and watched a whole bunch of videos, bought some books and just really kinda immersed myself and kind of accidentally started a business.

Bob DeMarco [00:09:39]:
Oh man. I love that. Well, I mean, it's, I, I had a, a girlfriend right out of college who actually, who who worked the phones at AT and T. She worked her way up over the years, and I know that also. But, man, talk about that. Like, that was, like, the most corporate like, whenever I went to visit her at her office or met her friends, like, the most corporate it gets, and that is not a judgment. It's just an observation. And and now and now I look at at, what the lifestyle of being a knifemaker, must be like.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:13]:
Not just the lifestyle, that's just the window dressing, but what the the difference in the levels of fulfillment must be. Like, how do you contrast that?

Charles Jones [00:10:23]:
I guess I would describe it as like, you know, you're doing a painting, you know, corporate life is very like straight lines, everything was very like boxy, very modern limited color palette, but then you go into like, you know, knife making or even if it's, you know, something else that you're really, really passionate about, it's like all of a sudden you're painting, you know, beautiful landscapes and things that you didn't think you'd ever really be able to do. And things are much brighter and more vibrant. They can be more challenging at times, but, definitely when you step back and look at the fuller picture, it's just a lot more life in the, you know, doing things yourself.

Bob DeMarco [00:11:03]:
Yeah. Yeah. That that, corporate, straight edge and muted color palette and that kind of thing, it's like it's like, it it's it's it's like it's engineered to bring everyone to the same level.

Charles Jones [00:11:17]:
Mhmm.

Bob DeMarco [00:11:17]:
You know? Yeah. We're not happy. We're not sad. We're not satisfied. We're not unsatisfied.

Charles Jones [00:11:22]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:11:22]:
And, taking that shift. Alright. You're totally inspiring me, and I'm sure many others, because, a lot of people start off in office jobs and they end up in office jobs even when they don't necessarily wanna be there. So there is life after that if, if you're perseverant enough, and I wanna get to that, what the what perseverance it takes to to do the job you're doing now. But tell me about that, knife you first made for your son, and I love that story. It's a it's a beautiful story, you know, and, he'll always have and cherish that knife, no doubt, but but tell me about the knife and what was it that drew other people to it?

Charles Jones [00:12:00]:
That one, it was actually really really simplistic. It was, it was just another piece of spring steel. This one was a bit thinner, so I didn't have to do a lot of, forging to it. I kinda, you know, shaped the tip in a little bit and then I got to work with a couple of like sanders that I had in the garage and, it doesn't exactly have a bevel. I, at that point, hadn't, you know, figured out how to dial in bevels and plunge lights and all that. So it doesn't have a bevel, but it's just very simplistic little knife about that long, good enough for carving, has a smaller ish handle on it. And I think with some kind of pine that I had out in the garage. And, I I used bolts as the handle pins and round off the, the threading and just put those in there and finish the handle very, very simple, but, I don't really know what drew people to it.

Charles Jones [00:12:59]:
I think it was just that, why hand sand the whole thing? So it doesn't look too bad, but it had a definite one of a kind feel to it. And I think some people really were drawn to.

Bob DeMarco [00:13:14]:
Yeah. I mean, I think since I've started collecting custom knives, it's it's fixed blades and, you know, I've I've all sorts of knives, but, those are the most special to me because I've met a lot of the people who've made them and and it means something, that part, but also the knowing that no 2 are exactly the same is is exciting. But before we go, on, let's not leave people wondering, do you have any knives around you to that you can show as examples?

Charles Jones [00:13:44]:
I do. I have, it's one I actually made on my YouTube. Ugh. And it's, Kaneshtur Damascus core. So it's ball bearings with some, powdered steel, and then it's stainless Sanmai.

Bob DeMarco [00:13:58]:
Stainless Sanmai? That's not something we hear often

Charles Jones [00:14:02]:
Yeah, no it's 303 stainless on the, for the cladding

Bob DeMarco [00:14:08]:
So if you're just listening, you can see the, the black, cutting edge steel and and the core when you turn it sideways on its spine. This is like a double edged fighter. Is that, is that a sharpened swedge or is that a false edge there?

Charles Jones [00:14:22]:
That's a false edge.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:24]:
This thing is beautiful. What what, tell me about the handle there.

Charles Jones [00:14:27]:
By the handle is a piece of, what was it, maple pearl. Has some spalting in there.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:34]:
Would you say that this is representative of, the kind of knives you like to make, or do you have a very wide what's your repertoire?

Charles Jones [00:14:44]:
I mean, that's I I really like making the, the Bowie knives, but I also like making, oh, folders. I don't make them very often, but this one's actually, this one's my wife's. It has my 2nd piece of titanium Damascus I ever made on the handle. Wow. And then the blade is actually, I forged that too. It's CPM 3 v for the core and then stainless Damascus for the cladding. What?

Bob DeMarco [00:15:16]:
Wait. Can you, please hold that one up a little bit closer too just so we could look at that. Oh, yeah.

Charles Jones [00:15:21]:
It's a little dull because it's been carrying used for a couple of years.

Bob DeMarco [00:15:27]:
So I gotta say it's it's very, interesting to me that you just pulled that out and opened it, and it looks like it's got beautiful action. And it's not something you make often. That's kind of a man, that's a huge flex because, making folders, I know, is a is a different game. I'm not saying that forging blades isn't complex, but it's a different kinda engineering. Is that, how did you learn that? Is this, and then we'll get back to your forging, but that's a little surprising to me.

Charles Jones [00:15:55]:
I watched a couple videos on YouTube. He I don't think this I don't think he makes knives anymore, but he was, he went by, I think, Ekam Knives

Bob DeMarco [00:16:04]:
and he

Charles Jones [00:16:05]:
had some great folder tutorials, and I just kind of followed some of his, you know, videos that it took me at least a dozen to get a decent folding knife, but the reason I don't do more of them, I actually plan to do more in the future, really, it's just been because I've been so busy.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:26]:
Well, okay. Let's for let's talk about your process. I I also think it's really cool to have a forged blade with, like, that amazing steel on a boulder. But let's talk about your your general process, forging. How did you get into forging? Tell me about that.

Charles Jones [00:16:46]:
Really, I think it was seeing some of the, like, really beautiful, like, forged knives on Instagram, seeing some of like, I think it, one of the first makers I found on Instagram was like Jay Nielsen. He does some incredible forced work and I was like, yeah, I I really wanna do that. And then I started seeing, you know, other makers do things that, like almost no one else was doing, like one of them was like rad knives. He made these cleavers and he, pattern welded his own titanium, which I was like, you know what? You gotta figure out how to do that too. And so I just started, like, side projects of learning. You know, these are the materials I wanna learn to make, buy a bunch of steel and just start learning and testing and breaking things. And in the course of the last, you know, 7 years, I've figured a lot of it out. I still like to break stuff, you know, make sure that things are where I want, but, it's a lot of testing, a lot of trial and error.

Bob DeMarco [00:17:55]:
So basically self taught in the forge, by watching other people work. Like, so I I had the opportunity at the at the Texas Custom Knife Show this past November to watch Jay Nielsen, do a a canister Damascus

Charles Jones [00:18:10]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:11]:
Live. And it was very cool to watch. And he was he was he was, funny and, you know, really knew how to work the crowd, work for him while he's doing it. But it seems like a a fascinating, process to me. All those different kinda Damascus, How how have you explored that? What do you what process do you like best there?

Charles Jones [00:18:34]:
I don't know if I have a process that I like best. Canister is really fun to do because you can take, like, you know, if you have like cutoffs of Damascus, you can clean those up. I like to use a sand blaster just because it removes all of the scale and you could toss those into canister with some ball bearings, some powdered steel, and, you get some really intricate and strange patterns out of that. But I I really like stainless sand mine. That's another thing that when I started seeing, you know, some of the first stainless sand mine blades, I was like, wow, you know, that kind of contrast is incredible. Contrast is something I really do enjoy. And so figuring out how to do, you know, stain the sand, my was, probably like, I think the first really difficult, material I learned to forge weld after just normal Damascus. And for me, it was always just kinda like figuring out the process.

Charles Jones [00:19:29]:
And, generally it took me many failed billets that ended up in the, you know, the scrap bucket. But, yeah, eventually, I did figure out how to, you know, make the stainless DeMarco. So what was, you know, the best way to make it that even now I still, you still get the occasional pill that just will not forge weld. And, failure is an interesting thing to me. I like to know like where things fail, why they fail, and lets me figure out how to make them fail less in the future.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. Get you to move on and progress. Yeah. What what are the challenges like? I I I know that stainless Damascus is, like, is not something easy. Foraging stainless I don't get it. Can you can you explain? Yeah. Can you forge stainless? I mean, I guess you can.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:23]:
Oh, yeah.

Charles Jones [00:20:24]:
Yeah. Yeah. I actually, I forged stainless a couple of times. It's not fun. The difference is like when when you're forging high carbon steels, you get them up to that good forging temperature and you start, you know, you can hit them with the hammer, they move, kinda like really tough play or like kinda like a a stiff wax. It, stainless is at least 4 or 5 times harder. You can if you're not right at the right temperature, it's not gonna move at all. And the temperature window for stainless, is a lot slimmer.

Charles Jones [00:21:07]:
So like with high carbon steel, when you're forging it, you can afford really well from like 1800 degrees, which is like, you know, a high orange color, a bright orange is gonna move really well up until like 22100. Past that you risk burning it, but it's gonna move really well in that 400 degree window with, with stainless steel here, like, right at 2,000 and you really gotta stay within a 100 degrees on each side or any hotter, it'll start to fall apart, any cooler, and it's just not gonna move.

Bob DeMarco [00:21:42]:
Literally, it it will fall apart, gets hot? Yeah. Yeah.

Charles Jones [00:21:45]:
I actually had a couple of the the first stainless Damascus billet I made. I got it up a little too hot. It was like 1825023100.

Bob DeMarco [00:21:53]:
And I hit it with

Charles Jones [00:21:54]:
a hammer and it just was sparks all over the shop.

Bob DeMarco [00:21:57]:
Wow.

Charles Jones [00:21:58]:
Yeah. It breaks into these little tiny pieces.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:00]:
I I I might be mistaken, but I don't remember ever talking with someone who, forges stainless. I I'm I'm sure I must have. Yeah. But it seems somewhat rare because it it does seem like, something that has a huge learning curve and, you you probably waste a lot of stainless or you don't waste it, but it doesn't turn into knives. It turns into knowledge.

Charles Jones [00:22:22]:
Yep. Another thing about stainless is it cools at a different rate during the quench as the high carbon, and it shrinks a little bit more. And so if you don't have like the correct geometry before heat treat, it'll actually like heal itself like open and, not necessarily it won't break the weld between the high carbon and the stainless, it'll break the high carbon. And so it'll just like peel open, and it's the strangest thing, but it's why like on this knife when I heat treated it, originally the whole spine, I ground in a false edge and that helps to, prevent the stainless from pulling so hard on the high carbon spine. I ground that part off up here, but it's it's a very tricky material to work with and like, originally I'm actually still working on a, it's a Damascus core stainless San Mai katana. And it took me 3 blades to get one that finally actually worked exactly how I wanted.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:39]:
So you're saying on the knife, you're just holding up, that false edge, in cross section like this, reduces the amount of stainless that's going all the way up to the spine and that reduces the tension pulling back.

Charles Jones [00:23:53]:
Yep.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:53]:
That's crazy. Okay. So when you're quenching, a a blade that is a combination of stainless and high carbon, do you do it in oil or do you do it in the okay. Because when you do the straight up stainless, you're putting it between plates, right, in a foil wrap and all that? Yeah.

Charles Jones [00:24:12]:
And even with, with actually with all of my blades, I do them after quenching the oil. I take them and I clamp them in between the aluminum plates just because it keeps them very straight. But with the, with the high carbon core, you do have to quench an oil because you gotta get the, the core steel nice and hard.

Bob DeMarco [00:24:31]:
Okay. Hold that up again. I mean, you and and and put it real close to the camera because that yeah. Those waves in the blade, you can see other so, the high carbon itself, is that one high carbon steel or is that a couple?

Charles Jones [00:24:49]:
Well, it's 52100 ball bearings.

Bob DeMarco [00:24:52]:
Uh-huh.

Charles Jones [00:24:52]:
And then the steel in between that is that's like a 1084 with 4% nickel.

Bob DeMarco [00:24:59]:
Okay. So that's yeah.

Charles Jones [00:25:01]:
Gives it the contrast in the core steel and then you have the bright and shiny stainless jacket. Now this is a non hardening stainless, so it it's very tough. It's 303 stainless, but it doesn't get very hard.

Bob DeMarco [00:25:20]:
Okay. So I'm I'm interested. You were talking about, you know, you were incidentally saying you're very busy, so you have a hard time, you know, doing a lot of any one thing like the folders or so Yeah. Tell us a little bit about your design process, how you go about designing knives, and what you're making. Are you constantly filling orders or are you experimenting with different blades?

Charles Jones [00:25:47]:
For the last, like 3 years, I've been constantly filling orders. Before that I did a lot of experimenting and now I'm trying to get back to doing a lot more experimenting. But the last 2 or 3 years I've been very booked and I don't like letting my books run out too long. So, when when I get really booked, I will just make a whole bunch of noise and, and kinda like not stop the experimenting, but, you know, pause things. I'll start planning projects for the future, and then, you know, when I have free time, I'll go ahead and actually I'll start trying out some of the the new processes that I've thought about.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:30]:
So, to to me, that's pretty interesting. Well, first of all, I love these, the coffin, handle buoys are really beautiful.

Charles Jones [00:26:38]:
Thank you.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:38]:
Yeah. I I mean, they're all beautiful, but those resonate a lot because that's probably my favorite favorite knife of all time.

Charles Jones [00:26:45]:
It could be,

Bob DeMarco [00:26:47]:
depends on what day you ask me. Any anyway, where was I going with that? Oh, just in the variety of what you make. Jim was scrolling these, and he was showing, swords. Wakizashi's kind of modernized, katanas, Wakizashi's. I even saw something, a cruciform sort of, you know, crusader sword.

Charles Jones [00:27:12]:
Mhmm.

Bob DeMarco [00:27:14]:
How did you move into swords, and what's your fascination with swords?

Charles Jones [00:27:19]:
Well, I actually, I started to do swords about the same time that I started learning, teaching myself how to do folders. And I don't know why I made this post on, like, Instagram. It was like 5 years ago, and I was like, big or small, I wanna make them all. And after I started making folders and swords, I was like, you know, there's a lot of things, there's a lot of lessons that I can take from a really small piece and I can apply them to really big piece. And, I just kinda there's processes from both swords and even like like folding knives that you can, you can apply the lesson in both places. And I I thought I found that really beneficial, so I just continued making both of them. I actually have 2 swords with me.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:07]:
Let us see them.

Charles Jones [00:28:08]:
Yeah. So this one is another this one belongs to my wife.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:13]:
Oh, sorry for if you're just listening and you hear me breathing heavy, this is beautiful. Looks like a sort of a Viking

Charles Jones [00:28:22]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:22]:
Sword. Double edged, long fuller all the way down, not super pointy tip. And then it looks like sort of a 5 lobe 5 lobe to pommel Yeah. Similar to ah, it's beautiful.

Charles Jones [00:28:38]:
Yeah. This one's a full tang.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:40]:
So so this is your wife's sword. That's pretty cool.

Charles Jones [00:28:44]:
That is, I think, I don't remember what it was for, but it was it was a gift several years ago.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:51]:
For my shield maiden. Yeah. Yeah.

Charles Jones [00:28:53]:
She actually has like 4 or 5 of my knives. How cool. And then I have this one's more tactical. This one is a katana.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:07]:
Oh, look at that.

Charles Jones [00:29:09]:
And this one is CPO 3 v.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:12]:
So did you forge this? Do you forge 3 V or is this something that you, do stock removal of?

Charles Jones [00:29:20]:
I try to do stock removal whenever I can, but when you're making, this long of a blade, I do have to forge in the, the tang runs through the handle.

Bob DeMarco [00:29:32]:
Wow. And is this, so to get that curve, is that something in the cooling of it?

Charles Jones [00:29:41]:
If you're heat treating in water, you don't have to, forge on the curvature. The the the water is harsh enough that if your blade survives, it will take that curve. If you're heat treating an oil, you do have to forge it in, you'll actually lose curvature in an oil quench. This these guys are this is air hardening. I do an aluminum plate quench on these, so I do have to forge the curvature in on these guys too.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:11]:
That blade is, well, no, wait. Don't don't put it away quite yet. So, the blade has a really nice curve to it and it man, the the polish looks gorgeous. You've got that secondary tip, but kinda like an Americanized tanto. The Suba is sort of modern looking. It's a very sort of modern looking handle and guard. I I love it. And and is this also, full tang?

Charles Jones [00:30:38]:
This one's not full tang. This one is it's like a near full tang. It goes out to about here.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:44]:
Oh, right. Right.

Charles Jones [00:30:45]:
But I've encased it in g ten.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:48]:
Alright. Right. That's kind of what I was thinking. I I didn't mean yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got that. That's cool.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:53]:
That is a beauty and I like its modern ness. Yeah. The modern, aspect but it also has, the real classic look. So is this the knife that you're raffling or is this the sword that you're raffling?

Charles Jones [00:31:10]:
This is one of them. 1 of them. Okay. Yeah. It has a matching wakizashi.

Bob DeMarco [00:31:14]:
Love that wakizashi. So yeah, I I was, if you go to the to the Charles Jones blades website you'll see a pop well not a pop up but the the landing page is a raffle for those 2 swords and, just go check it out. It's a very reasonable, spot, price especially for what you would get if you were to win. Oh my god. So, you were talking about history before and and your fascination with how people did things in the past.

Charles Jones [00:31:44]:
We could.

Bob DeMarco [00:31:45]:
And here you're making these knives and swords that are very obviously based on historical, knives and swords and yet you're using a blend of how people did things in the past and modern processes How does that, balance out for you?

Charles Jones [00:32:02]:
I think it works really well I think there's a lot of lessons in the past and just even just styles in the past that are really beautiful and alluring. And I like to bring a little bit of the past and into the future and, kinda mix the 2. I think it works really well.

Bob DeMarco [00:32:22]:
Your coffin shaped, coffin handled buoy has a a, an overall very classic, profile, you know, of a of a Bowie with the with that shaped handle. But then when you look at it and and the scales and the way the scales, and the guard come up on and the ricasso, that whole area, it looks very modern to me. Yeah. I I I'm thinking right now of the one with the walnut handles on your website. Good. It's a little bit harder to see with the black and black g ten, but to me that that little area is, of that blade is what makes that a modern kind of special and different, Bowie knife. How does that work into your designing?

Charles Jones [00:33:06]:
Sometimes it's just that, like, I'll be watching a movie and I just see like, you know, oh, wow, that's a cool knife. And I'm like, you know, I'll make something kinda similar to that. So I, you know, pull out some paper and I start drawing up some things and erasing a lot. And then I'm left with, you know, a design that I can take out in the shop and give it a try. And, usually, when I'm kinda designing something new, I'll make like 2 or 3, sometimes even more versions, that have slight changes to them and to see like which one I like better.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:41]:
It's funny because, part of my, other job is editing video. I produce, video, and, it's very easy to do 3 different versions when you're nonlinear editing. Like, I wanna do 3 versions of this and see how they look. Yeah. Not so easy, I would imagine, when you're when you're doing, this kind of work. It does do you find it hard to to make things replicable and, the same every time?

Charles Jones [00:34:11]:
It's definitely more difficult than making, a unique piece every time. I I try to make things as close as possible. I I do have, I made a set of, like, master stencils out of g ten because it works really well and it's, you know, fairly affordable, the really thin stuff. And then, you know, I just scribe off of those and that's actually, that's how I designed all of my folding knives. It's how I got all the parts that fit in here because this one, the, the stop pin is totally under the scale right next to the pivot, and I actually made this knife in G10 before I made it in, you know, a more difficult expensive material and lets me see where the blade stops, where the stop pin holes need to be. And, you know, I mean, that's, it's like $10 in g ten, and it's way easier to work. You can just, you know, a little file and it just files beautifully. And you can work out most of your issues if you make something in like G10 or even just like thin wood for you, you know, go into the, the metals part.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:18]:
How about the lock and and all of that? Can you work any of that out, without the metal?

Charles Jones [00:35:24]:
You could. I generally don't, but you definitely could. Your G10, if you heat it up a little bit and you bend it, it'll totally take the shape that you bend it to. So you could make a fully functional. Now the only thing is the detent ball,

Bob DeMarco [00:35:43]:
be

Charles Jones [00:35:43]:
a little hard to get it to stick, but probably could.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:46]:
All right. I want to get back to what I was talking before about, the past and your fascination with how people did things in the past. What I was getting at with my question was, do you see yourself using, any techniques or processes from the past, because that's what they are, when you could be using a more streamlined thing or it or is it is it not like that? I'm

Charles Jones [00:36:14]:
I mean, I try to streamline things as much as I can to make it, you know, a little easier on myself, but some things in the past, like something I've been wanting to do for a really long time is, I actually like make my own steel from scratch. I go from from ore into, like, blue ray steel, and yeah, it's a lot more difficult than working with just a standard modern steel. It's all homogenized and all that, but, I think there's a lot of lot of things you can learn in trying some of the old original methods and, I think there's a level of beauty there that you don't quite get nowadays. Something I've recently started doing is, using like old wrought iron on some pieces to, forge out. Like there's a sword that I'm working on that has a a wrought iron guard that I forged and forging rod iron is, is quite an interesting material. It's definitely different than just about any modern material.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:18]:
I have one knife with rod iron on it. It's, it's a sub hilt fighter and it's it's, it's the guard and, and the sub hilt. And it was taken from an old bridge in Boston, which is kind of a cool That's cool. Side note. But, yeah. I heard from the gentleman who made that knife, that the wrought iron is is not really a walk in the park.

Charles Jones [00:37:41]:
No. No. It's, it really is almost like a composite material. It's strands of the of iron and steel. It's kinda like mish mashed and pressed together and there's some inclusions in there and, you have to work it really hot or like all those little strands will break out and spread apart. It's some very interesting material to make or to, to work with.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:05]:
I mean, to me, that sounds like, the a a microscopic version or a very small version of when you see Unforged in Fire, guys making I mean, that's that's that's my reference point anyway. Guys guys making, cable Damascus and pounding on the cable and then seeing, you know, bits of it popping out. God, that's gotta be frustrating as hell.

Charles Jones [00:38:27]:
Yeah. I I I bet it's very similar. I've ever worked with, I've ever done cable Damascus, but I from seeing it, I I think they're probably really similar.

Bob DeMarco [00:38:36]:
So as Jim was just, scrolling on your page, I saw beautiful Saxx. You do some sort of modern saxes. I saw what I think was a warhammer. Some swords. What what are your favorite, periods of history, and what swords or weapons from history do you hope to make that you haven't made yet?

Charles Jones [00:38:58]:
I really I really enjoy the, like, the late migration era. So, like, it'd be 6 or 700 AD getting into, like, you know, the Viking era. I really like Saxx's, because they're very I don't know, they're very cool overall blade shape. Like, you can still see, like, the the the original Saxx blade shape in a lot of, the lock back knives. Mhmm. And I I think that that's really cool. I I like making big versions. I actually have this guy I'm working on now.

Charles Jones [00:39:39]:
He's not done. This is,

Bob DeMarco [00:39:41]:
Oh, god. That's beautiful. The sax. Okay hold that up a little higher and a little closer. Look at the steel on that. That looks like a river running through, like a it looks like a fjord from from space or something. Yeah. God, that that's something.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:58]:
And the handle, I'm really liking the shape of this handle. It's is it gonna be sort of a coffin? Is it gonna maintain that shape?

Charles Jones [00:40:05]:
Yeah. And it is gonna have a, probably a copper ferrule tear guard. But, yeah, the handle is maple. So it, it has a lot of figure hiding under there. It's still really rough right now, but, I just I just like the those old, old shapes.

Bob DeMarco [00:40:28]:
Alright. If if you don't mind, hold that up. And if you have a buoy, hold that up, because when I'm looking at a broke back Saxx, I'm like, that is not really different from a Bowie, and

Charles Jones [00:40:37]:
then I see they're very similar.

Bob DeMarco [00:40:40]:
So what as a man who makes both, like, what are the differences?

Charles Jones [00:40:45]:
I think the differences really are like on on on always you'll often see a little bit of recurve right here. Right at the like right it has a bit of a belly and a little bit of a recurve in here. But really, the tip profile is very similar on both. And I think part of that comes from, like, how, like, the United States of America was, kinda it's mixed everything, you know, like 50 or 60 cultures across the world, throw everybody together, people make things over the, you know, the course of 300 years and things just kinda they just mix and influence each other and I kinda think that that's where where you get to this blade shape showing up kinda everywhere. Yeah. This is actually taken out of, it's, He's the guy who did the typology on, like, European swords. His name is like Ewert Oakshot. He did a book, that's all, like, Viking pieces, and this is a copy of the blade shape of a grave find, I think, in France from, like, 700.

Bob DeMarco [00:42:12]:
It's amazing. You know, it's kinda interesting. You hear about, I can never remember the name of the Viking swords that were so prized, among every you know, way above everything else and how a lot of Viking swords were, you know, I don't I don't wanna put it this way, but, like, garbage or not very good, and then some of them were absolutely spectacular. There didn't seem to be much of a middle ground.

Charles Jones [00:42:38]:
Yeah. The the the Oof Oofbert swords. Yes. Oofbert. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Charles Jones [00:42:43]:
Those are interesting. Some of them actually, I've seen some of the, like, more scientific research into the steel and some of them are like crucible steel that that some historians think of that may have been, you know, traded all the silk road that came from India all the way up into, like, Denmark, you know, Northern what's now Northern Germany into Scandinavia, and, the Smiths turned them into swords up there. And then some of them are just, you know, pattern welded, essentially like wrought iron swords.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:18]:
Yeah. Yeah. Rot. That's what I've heard. Kinda like Me. And then and now to know what what it looks like on that microscopic level. It's like celery, you know, with all the long strands. Yep.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:30]:
So I think it's interesting, you know, the, you mentioned that you love the Nordic or or, what did you say? From the 600, those, swords in Europe, but also you have, you seem to have a real, affinity for Japanese swords. Where does that come from?

Charles Jones [00:43:49]:
I don't know if that really comes from any one place. I think it's just an admiration of like the culture of like the Japanese sword, because like I have watched several documentaries on some of their master swordsmiths spending one whole month making, you know, a single blade. And just the fact that, that they made the steel with the iron sand, you get the Tomahogany and you're able to forge a sword out of that. It's just always been quite credible to me. And I think the styling and, and some of those sorts is just incredible. And I also like the use of like, you know, copper and brass and, race skin is, is a really cool material to work with. So I just overall just really, really admire that, that genre of sword.

Bob DeMarco [00:44:40]:
You mentioned the Reis skin. I'm a huge fan of the tsukamaki wrap on modern blades. Okay. You know, I I have a lot of, EDC fixed blades, and a a few of them have very nicely Japanese wrapped handles. And, when done properly, and and I have my own, ideas of what properly means, but, to me, the the wrap has to kind of fold over to create a high peak. Yep. And and what makes it really effective are those alternating peaks and valleys that your the fat of your palm and then your fingers can sink into. And it's a really great grip even without a guard.

Bob DeMarco [00:45:18]:
Mhmm. Yeah.

Charles Jones [00:45:19]:
I've done a couple of those. I like the the really modern ones that are that are done with the the cordless paracord. You can get it really tight and it almost is like, it's almost as hard as like, you know, the wood underneath but it does give you that kinda just the grip texture, I think is really cool.

Bob DeMarco [00:45:40]:
So what is your most, popular, kind of blades? What what do you sell the most of?

Charles Jones [00:45:47]:
I sell a lot of, tactical blades. Don't really have a blade shape that's most popular, but people seem to really like the, the more tactical knives, but, anytime I make something that's pattern welded, that one tends to to sell pretty quick too. So

Bob DeMarco [00:46:07]:
So is your model like you you, so do you make some things that you just kind of make and then say, hey. I just made this. Who wants it? Okay. And then other other stuff, you have custom orders. Some guys like, I want it all black combat sax or midnight opera.

Charles Jones [00:46:24]:
How I usually do it is is I'll take some time. I'll design a knife. I'll make, you know, 2 or 3 that are kinda similar, I'll put those ones up for sale as, like, you know, available. And then, you know, if I really enjoyed making that knife that I'll put that design on, like, my website or my Etsy where you can order one because, you know, I enjoyed making it, I'd like to make one again. And, it seems to be the the more, like, darker colors, muted hamons. They're not muted, but like the the darker jimone, the the Yeah. The really high contrast jimones seem to be quite popular too.

Bob DeMarco [00:47:02]:
So in terms of business, you started the company as a business business in 2017. Is that right? Yeah. So how has that been? I mean, we know you've been making knives since you were 12, or that's when the first one

Charles Jones [00:47:15]:
I did.

Bob DeMarco [00:47:15]:
But that's very different from you know, being a hobbyist is very different from running and owning a business. What's the business part been like? What's the learning curve and that kinda that kinda thing?

Charles Jones [00:47:27]:
Well, the business is definitely the business part of it is is definitely challenging. I was always really entrepreneurial as a kid. And in middle school, I, actually kinda well known for it. But I would I would buy like energy drinks and fruit snacks in bulk at like Costco. And I'd smuggle them into the school and I'd sell them. And, you know, it did make me, like, you know, $100 a week or so, which back in, you know, 2007 was decent money. So I always had that, like, business mindset and, and then after that, so after when I got out of high school, I did a computer repair and Xbox 360 repair business. I did custom Xboxes for like 3 years.

Charles Jones [00:48:18]:
And then after that, you know, I really was like, oh, well, you know, Xbox 360 is going away, so I should probably, you know, get a real Bob. And that's when I started doing the over the phone work and working for the HD and then yeah. But, but really running my own business is always something I really enjoyed, even though it's, definitely harder than just having a normal Bob. There's a level of, freedom and decision making and like what direction you wanna go in that is really rewarding.

Bob DeMarco [00:48:52]:
Yeah. And and and, as a non business owner, from my perspective, it seems like, that aspect of it balances out the the cut grinding aspect of it. I'm sure there there are some of those, like, I always think of restaurants as the most nerve wracking business to own. How much food do we get? Well, you can't get too much, can't get too little. Mhmm. And then now what you don't use spoils. Luckily, what you don't use doesn't spoil, but that doesn't make it any easier. You know, hoeing a roe, so to speak, as a as a knife maker is doesn't seem, easy.

Bob DeMarco [00:49:29]:
What in terms of marketing and getting your name out there, is it social media?

Charles Jones [00:49:36]:
It's definitely social media. When I first started to, you know, had decided that, you know, I'm gonna make this, you know, at least like a little bit of a, you know, side business. I, my wife was doing an herbal fair, and so I made some, like, little garden knives as some of the first blades that I made, and those were the ones I took the herbal fair and started posting those, on Instagram and Facebook, and people really seem to like him. And so I was like, okay, I gotta I gotta embrace the new world and get on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube, and just kinda get myself out there. But that that's quite a trip.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:16]:
So, you said an herbal fair. I'm I'm presuming that's like, like a like a gardening market, like a farmer's market or something like that?

Charles Jones [00:50:24]:
Yeah. It was it was like handcrafted goods. You could buy, like, you know, bulk herbs, like starter plants. Like you go and buy a bunch of tomato starts. But there's a lot of art there too. So.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:37]:
Is your wife an artist or, a, a grower or?

Charles Jones [00:50:42]:
A little bit of everything. We have 4 kids and soon to be 5, so we're all busy, but, but she she was doing, like, a copper wrap jewelry at the time. Still does some, but she's just does a little bit of everything.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:58]:
So have your children shown an interest in knives in your process in your shop?

Charles Jones [00:51:06]:
A few of them. My, my youngest son, the shop is one of his favorite places. He will come in when I'm, you know, taking a break, and I'll be like, dad, can I drill a hole? I'll take him over the drill press and let him drill a hole in a piece of wood, and he's always so tickled. My older boys are, you know, a little more interested in video games right now, but they they they're very tech minded, which, you know, I was at that age too. Mhmm. But they they all think it's really cool. And, even my oldest son will come out and hand sand with me in the shop sometimes. So that's been really cool.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:44]:
I I like that. Just the thought of, my daughter actually used to do that with my drill press, which I've since moved, but she can I just drill? You know? Yeah. And and she loved it. And and there's not not much to it, but just showing that you can do stuff like that

Charles Jones [00:52:00]:
Mhmm. I

Bob DeMarco [00:52:00]:
think is a really good example. And and I'm not saying me with my drilling skills. I'm saying you with your shop and and your ability to take something very elemental and turn it into something beautiful and useful. What what are your end goals for your knives? What do you hope, you know, how do you hope your knives impact the world?

Charles Jones [00:52:21]:
I just like the idea of making something that's gonna, you know, outlive me by a long time. It got made probably close to 1500, maybe 2,000 knives, and and I hope to someday, you know, get 10,000 or so out there. But, I really just wanna do a lot more artistic stuff and a lot more like folding knives and just some some things that been a real deep interest of mine over the last few years.

Bob DeMarco [00:52:51]:
So, you, have any advice that you would give someone who might think, knife making is for them?

Charles Jones [00:53:01]:
My advice would be to have a good backup plan. But also if you like that, if you are going to, you know, really pursue knife making as like a job, be prepared to fail a lot and learn from it and practice patience because sometimes, you're trying to make something and it fails 10 times and, you have to walk away without, you know, breaking anything, You know, throwing it in the in the trash bin a little too hard. But yeah, just perseverance would be my recommendation. So are we gonna see

Bob DeMarco [00:53:47]:
you at blade show? How, if not, how do people catch up with you? What's the best way to get in touch with you?

Charles Jones [00:53:54]:
Best way probably is through my Instagram or Facebook. On my website, there's also, you know, you can send me an email through there. This year, probably not not gonna be a blade show. I do hope to go next year, but, this year we'll have a little baby, so I won't be able to make it.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:11]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. You did just mention that.

Charles Jones [00:54:14]:
But, but yeah. No. Next year, I definitely am gonna try to make it to at least one of the blade shows.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:19]:
That'd be awesome. It'd be great to meet you in person and and check out your blades, but, you don't have to wait till Charles is at blade show to check out his blades. Check them out on Instagram and, on your website. And I I have to say, from a collector's standpoint, especially someone who likes, historical weapons and such, one thing I appreciate about your work is not only the work itself, not only is it beautiful and seems, like, incredibly well made, especially Thank you. Reading about your process and seeing your work and hearing you talk about it. But also, there's, you know, if if if you wanna go real deep and get something super intricate and pricey, you can you can do that. If you wanna stay, a little more simple and a little more, you know, value minded, you have some knives that are within reach, and I really appreciate that, as I'm sure anyone who goes to your website and checks it out will too. So, anyway, Charles Jones of Charles Jones Blades.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:24]:
Thank you so much

Charles Jones [00:55:25]:
And thank you.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:25]:
For coming on the Knife Junk podcast. I appreciate it.

Announcer [00:55:34]:
Knife themed shirts, hoodies, mugs, water bottles, and more. The knifejunkie.com/shop. Do you carry multiple knives? Then overthink which one to use when an actual cutting chore pops up. You're a knife junkie of the first order.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:43]:
There it goes, ladies and gentlemen. Charles Jones of Charles Jones Blades. You like buoys like wakizashi's? You like, a really cool kukuri that he does custom, definitely go check out, Charles Jones Blades, at the website or on Instagram. Do check us out again next Sunday for another great conversation and on Wednesday for the midweek supplemental and, of course, Thursday for Thursday night night. For Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DeMarco saying until next time, don't take dull for an answer.

Announcer [00:56:14]:
Thanks for listening to the 9th junkie podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate and review at review the podcast.com. For show notes for today's episode, additional resources, and to listen to episodes, visit our website, the knifejunkie.com. You can also watch our latest videos on YouTube at the knifejunkie.com/ youtube. Check out some great knife photos on the knifejunkie.com/ instagram, and join our Facebook group at the knifejunkie.com/facebook. And if you have a question or comment, email them to Bob, or call our 247 listener line at 724-466-4487. And you may hear your comment or question answered on an upcoming episode of the Knife Junkie podcast.