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Announcer [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, your weekly dose of knife news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your host, Bob the knife junkie DeMarco.

Bob DeMarco [00:00:16]:
On this edition of the show, I'm speaking with Ken Brock of Brock Blaze. Ken is a former law enforcement officer who turned his love of knife making into an encore career. His knives fall squarely in the elevated custom self defense fixie category with many of his designs taking their cues from far flung cultures and historical periods. I was introduced to Ken by Joe Watson and assured that his work would be right up my alley. Well, he was correct, and we'll get to talk to Ken and find out all about Brock Blades. But first, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, hit the notification bell, and join us in on Patreon and see what we have to offer there. Quickest way to do that is to go over to the knifejunkie.com/patreon. Again, that's the knifejunkie.com/patreon.

Announcer [00:01:04]:
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Bob DeMarco [00:01:25]:
Ken, welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast, sir.

Ken Brock [00:01:28]:
Glad to be here.

Bob DeMarco [00:01:30]:
As I mentioned, Joe Watson, connected us. I'm a big fan of his work. And when I saw your work, I knew why he sent you my way because I love small, EDC fixed blades, especially ones, like yours that are kinda bent towards self defense and that kinda thing. So it's a it's a real pleasure to meet you. I think I saw your work at blade show. Is that right?

Ken Brock [00:01:56]:
Yeah. I was there, over along the back wall on the or the left side of the the building, not far from where Joe was.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:05]:
Okay. Alright. So I'm pretty sure, and I'm pretty sure I we met in person, but, we we'll meet in person again next year.

Ken Brock [00:02:14]:
Yeah. Blade show's always crazy.

Bob DeMarco [00:02:16]:
It is. But okay. So I I mean, I said in my introduction, elevated custom fixed blade knives. And and for me, I I add self defense in there because, a lot of the your design seem to take cues from historical weapons or, like, I'm thinking of the skin do, for instance, and kinda translate it modern day tool, weapon. Yeah. Tell me about your influences.

Ken Brock [00:02:41]:
I'm influenced by a lot of the the old school 6 blade guys like, Al Bukowski and, Bud Neely. I really liked a lot of what they did. So without getting into copying, I just took their ideas. So like the the Pekauski Fighter that, somebody was making a production version for a while. I really like that blade. So I, yeah, there you go. So I tried to do I tried to maximize the amount of cutting that I could get on the blade for the the purposes it was meant for. But I also like the the way that Bud Neely did a lot of his small fixed blades.

Ken Brock [00:03:29]:
I didn't like the handles that much. They seem too slick. So like on a lot of my designs, I'll have a built in guard because I wanna keep it small. So instead of adding a guard, it's gonna add more space and and take up more room. I try to build, like, an integral guard with the the finger groove.

Bob DeMarco [00:03:51]:
Al Polkowski and Bud Neely are 2 of the first custom knife makers I was ever aware of. I met Al Polkowski at the custom knife show in New York City in, like, mid, late nineties, something like that, And, I I was moved by the experience. I didn't know much about anything then. I just knew that I loved knives, and, his seemed to be something you you carry. What what was it about his knives that, really got you going?

Ken Brock [00:04:19]:
Just the they seem purpose built. They were, everything you need, but nothing you didn't.

Bob DeMarco [00:04:29]:
You know, it's funny you say that because the I already knew I liked his knives just from looking at them, and I was very impressed by how most everything on his table had two edges. I was like, that is, I, you know, I didn't know. I hadn't taken I've done a lot of collie since. I hadn't started it then, but I knew double edge was for me. I loved it. And then I saw some very, plain looking guy like a like, he looked like a regular suburban dad, kinda like how I am now, walk up to the table and say, mister Palkowski, so nice to meet you. And he pulled out, you know, one of his largish, you know, 5 inch fixed blade knives. I guess that's large on his, and and showed it off and talked about it, and I was like, how cool.

Bob DeMarco [00:05:14]:
Like like, this is something like, you don't have to be, in the in the service to carry a a fixed blade knife.

Ken Brock [00:05:21]:
Right. No. And I think I mean, even now, I rarely carry a folder. I carried a fixed blade my entire career. I carried a fixed blade when I was a kid. I grew up on a farm. I always needed a knife. To me, fixed blades, as I like to joke with the guys that are friends of mine that make folders, fixed blades aren't pre broken.

Ken Brock [00:05:44]:
So, they just make a whole lot more sense to me.

Bob DeMarco [00:05:47]:
Yeah. I like that, I like the term, you know, pre broken. Alright. You were talking about your career. Let's let's talk about that for a second because I feel like it it, gives a lot of context for the kind of knives you design and the kind of purpose that, they're most intended for, and that is law enforcement. You were a law enforcement officer for 30 years?

Ken Brock [00:06:10]:
30 years. I retired, was out for about 6 months, and they asked me to come back part time. They were running short on instructors. So I still work couple days a month, mainly at SWAT training.

Bob DeMarco [00:06:25]:
Well, what what, what were you doing? Or what are you doing? What, at sheriff's office? Or

Ken Brock [00:06:31]:
Yes. The sheriff's office, we have about 3 a little over 300 sworn people, so it's a it's a midsize department.

Bob DeMarco [00:06:40]:
And, so 30 years on on a department like that's gotta be, you know, you see a lot and you experience a lot. I mean, how much would you say, I know that when you're a police officer or a sheriff's deputy, your main weapon obviously is your sidearm, your pistol, or your shotgun, or whatever, your rifle, certainly not your knife. But how did how did knives integrate into your carry then and and use use, case?

Ken Brock [00:07:13]:
So my slot belt, I always had a fixed blade, one that would be strong enough that I could cry because a lot of times with the information we would have on a situation, whether it came from the CI or just bad information, We wouldn't have the breaching tools we needed. So I realized very quick that I needed a a strong fixed blade. And then most of my the last 10 years, I was active. I was doing, fugitive investigation. So we were in plain clothes, and I always carried a a fixed blade then too. It was just a smaller fixed blade.

Bob DeMarco [00:07:51]:
Now were these always things that you had made?

Ken Brock [00:07:54]:
No. I never carried a knife I made at work. And a lot of people would give me a hard time about it. I'm like, look. God forbid, I get in a fight over my weapon and I have to stab somebody. I don't really wanna explain. I made the knife that I stabbed the guy with. So I always carried one of my friend's, knives.

Ken Brock [00:08:16]:
He carried 1 of Joe's or a a Mick Strider or Joe Braun, several others that were in my rotation.

Bob DeMarco [00:08:27]:
So, yeah, that's funny. I didn't think about that. I know a lot of people don't carry their own knives because they sell them and they're like, well Well,

Ken Brock [00:08:34]:
that You know? Yeah. That

Bob DeMarco [00:08:36]:
too. But, yeah. The thought of, well, judge, I I did make this knife and

Ken Brock [00:08:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. This knife has your has your name engraved on it. My god. Yeah. Well, probably not a good look.

Bob DeMarco [00:08:49]:
So, you mentioned you did a lot of prying. Like, that was kinda generally why you would have a fixed blade, because it's a more robust tool Yeah.

Ken Brock [00:08:58]:
Out in

Bob DeMarco [00:08:58]:
the field. But so you did a lot of prying what? Like car doors and, server Usually,

Ken Brock [00:09:03]:
usually the screen door on on a a house or a trailer. For whatever reason, a lot of these, drug houses that we hit would not have a handle on the screen door. And the easiest way to do it would be just jam the fixed blade in there, twist it, and then you could actually breach the interior door.

Bob DeMarco [00:09:24]:
Man, well, I guess they're too busy making math to think about security. That's that's that's crazy, man. I'd so that you did a lot of that, kinda like busting into places and, breaking up drug houses? I mean, I know I I must sound like a babe in the woods because I've never been in law enforcement. I've never broken down a door. But was this the kind of stuff you did kind of on a daily daily basis?

Ken Brock [00:09:49]:
Yeah. During that time, 2005 to 2009, I was on a unit that was attached to narcotics, and we were basically there when they needed to breach and get into a house. They would call my unit, and we would go do whatever they needed and then we would leave. So we did a lot of we were doing 2 or 3 meth labs a day sometimes.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:12]:
God. Man alive. Well, thanks, thanks for taking care of that because, yeah, we we got more than we can handle. But fugitive task force, you said?

Ken Brock [00:10:23]:
Yeah. Yeah. That was the best job I ever had.

Bob DeMarco [00:10:27]:
What was that like?

Ken Brock [00:10:28]:
We, I transferred from that unit I was just talking about to, to the warrant unit at some time. And I went to our captain and I'm like, well, this is stupid. We're in uniforms. And he's like, well, take a page from the u the the marshals and go get some cars out of the narcotics impound lot. So we went and chose a couple of cars and we were wearing soft clothes and and going out looking for people. And it was I won't say it's a simple job, but in law enforcement, it's pretty simple because you don't have to worry about making a case. You just have to worry about finding the person you're looking for. So you find the person, you hook them up, you drop them off the jail, and you roll onto the next one.

Ken Brock [00:11:16]:
And you don't even have to write a report necessarily unless something bad happens because the report that issued the warrant is already there. So you knock out a quick little supplemental and lot less paperwork than going out and making cases.

Bob DeMarco [00:11:32]:
Are are people in your experience, predictable?

Ken Brock [00:11:36]:
Yes. Yes. For the most part. If you got somebody just on the run, they're gonna go to the people that they associate with. They're gonna go to their family. They're gonna go to their close friends, and they're gonna go to places they've been before that may not be associated with a family member. So it doesn't mean you're gonna find them quick, but if you stay on the the people that they're going to have to have support from, then it's just a matter of time.

Bob DeMarco [00:12:09]:
So during the time you're doing all this, all these these different roles in, law enforcement, Is this when you started making knives? You were a hobbyist at this time?

Ken Brock [00:12:20]:
No. I, law enforcement isn't a very high paid job. So to supplement what guys would do would be to go work a side job like security at a ball game or a night club or what have you. And I realized in early 2000, I don't wanna live in uniform. I don't wanna be a cop all the time. And so I sold a couple of guns and couple of custom knives I had, and I bought a grinder and and some steel. And that's when I I started attempting to make knives because it it takes a little while to get in the hang of it.

Bob DeMarco [00:12:58]:
Okay. Well, for anyone who has knives enough and guns enough to sell to buy a grinder, you obviously had a a love or a thing for knives, like everyone who is listening and watching this right now. So, how did that form? Where did that come from?

Ken Brock [00:13:15]:
Growing up on a farm and always have was always a gadget guy. I like stuff that would help me get through my daily life more easily. So I was always big into, guns and knives. And then when I went to shop class in high school, there were certain things we had to do. We had to rebuild an engine. We had to build some stuff out of wood, and then they would give us free time. So I found some steel and I made a couple of knives in in high school shop and they were terrible. But, later on, I I I was friends with a lot of knife makers, because I'm a knife collector as well as a knife maker.

Ken Brock [00:13:55]:
So would call them up like, Hey, how do I do this? What what do I need to do in this step? What I'm kinda been in a lot of it. I just learned on my own by screwing up. Because you learn more by screwing up than you do by getting it right. So definitely learn experience, but the internet forums were great because you always had people in there willing to give information, which is something great about knife makers. They would rarely run into anybody that tried to keep a trade secret. They they were willing to share, even devote their time to to helping somebody else learn.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:32]:
You mentioned that you made a couple of knives in shop class, which to begin with is hilariously crazy, in this day and age. I I we we're we're of the same generation, you and I, I think, and I can remember that far back where that probably would have been permissible at my school. But they also made you rebuild an engine, so they were actually teaching you something

Ken Brock [00:14:56]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:14:57]:
Called self reliance. That's pretty amazing. I hope that's on its way back. But, those knives that you made in high school, did you take them all the way, heat treat them and all of that, or were you making knife like objects then?

Ken Brock [00:15:12]:
No. They they were knife like objects. They were, I used the most The the worst piece of steel I could have used, it was a reciprocating saw blade. So it was super hard already. And and then I had to plasti dip the handle because you couldn't drill through the tang. So it was, it was a pretty crappy first attempt, but the guy that got that first knife, he still uses it.

Bob DeMarco [00:15:37]:
Wow. That's pretty cool.

Ken Brock [00:15:39]:
He's a friend of my dad's. I talked to him not long ago, and he say, yeah. I still use that knife to to clean beer with. I'm surprised.

Bob DeMarco [00:15:47]:
I mean, that is amazing because people talk often about how, you know, their knives will, or, you know, how their knives will go down, and they will they will live throughout the generations. And, of course, they will, especially when they're made with these modern materials and such. But to to be to see living proof of that, especially with a knife that you probably didn't think would ever live that long. That's pretty amazing.

Ken Brock [00:16:12]:
That was 35 years ago that I made the ones in in Shaw.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:18]:
So then okay. When you started to make knives in earnest, this is, I guess you were a sheriff's deputy. Yeah. You you wanted a little side hustle, so to speak, but didn't wanna do security, like like, might be the the low hanging fruit in that job. And, you sell some beloved guns and knives, and you get a grinder. So you're starting you're you're doing stock removal knives. Yes. Tell me about that initial period.

Bob DeMarco [00:16:50]:
What what is that like dipping your toes in something that serious?

Ken Brock [00:16:56]:
Well, I encountered the problem that a lot of knifemakers experience. I tried to reinvent the wheel. I was trying to come up with a unique design. And then Tom Mayo, who I knew before I started making knives, he said, look, stop trying all that crazy stuff. You can take one of my patterns for all I care. Just make a simple drop point hunter type knife and grind a 100 of them out. Don't try to be crafty and reinvent and come up with a new design. Get your skills down first and then work on design, which was great advice.

Bob DeMarco [00:17:34]:
Yeah. It's like, the, the analog to that in art, which, I studied, many years ago is you gotta learn how to paint realistically before you can get away with painting abstractly because you can't abstract nothing. You know? You have to abstract something. And, well, that's that's that's the same it's the it's a parallel. You're talking crazy patterns. I love I love what you're saying here because I have books full of sketches, and they used to be so crazy. Like, you know, you could hold them one way and use them one way, and they were total, you know, fantasy knives and that kind of thing. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:18:12]:
Tell me about some of these crazy early patterns and what you were trying to achieve with them.

Ken Brock [00:18:17]:
To be different was what I was trying to achieve to so that it if you looked at it, you would know, oh, this is something new. But I went about it completely the wrong way because, like, one of the first ones I did was a, like a recurved, like a hawk build type blade with a tanto point. It makes no sense. It's it's dumbest just it's the dumbest thing it could have been. But that's what I thought I should try. And I tried to grind like 5 of those and I ended up throwing them against the wall and I'm like, this is stupid. I'll just let me just try to make a a spear point and and then I'm like, oh, okay. Well, this makes more sense.

Ken Brock [00:18:58]:
I can actually grind the bevels on this because it's simpler, and I'm not that good at grinding yet. So, yeah, it was some it was some pretty stupid stuff at first.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:09]:
That's funny. Well, you you mentioned, couple people. Tom Mayo, legend, and Mick Strider, a legend. You're friends with these people, and and I guess were, as you were coming up too. And Mick Strider, I guess he coined the term, murder grind. Is that what it was? Murder grind?

Ken Brock [00:19:27]:
Nightmare grind?

Bob DeMarco [00:19:28]:
Nightmare grind. Yes.

Ken Brock [00:19:29]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:19:30]:
Nightmare grind. I'm sorry. That's it's because it's a nightmare to grind, but it wasn't any grind in particular, was it? It was just, like, comp all sorts of compound

Ken Brock [00:19:38]:
It was just a compound grind, and I I make fun of him. I told him, I said, I know what happened. You screwed up this grind, and you decided to to call it something different. And he just smiled. And even more of a nightmare for that is another friend of mine had got a a fixed blade nightmare grind. And he's like, Hey. Can you make me a sheath? I'm like, Yeah, man. Send it out here.

Ken Brock [00:20:00]:
Molding Kydex into a nightmare grind, I won't do it again. It's it's like making a a Kydex Sheath for a k bar. Because that Kadex locks into those fullers. Mhmm. And you have to spend so much time heating it up and trying to move it. And it's it's Getting it

Bob DeMarco [00:20:17]:
so that it releases it and

Ken Brock [00:20:19]:
Right.

Bob DeMarco [00:20:19]:
Well, okay. Tell tell everyone what a nightmare grind is.

Ken Brock [00:20:22]:
So a nightmare grind would be I don't have an example because I don't do them. But if you took and you ground just like a couple of inches here, maybe a little higher than this normal grind. And so it's it's compound that that instead of how this grind line goes just in one motion, you're actually getting 2 dips. So you're getting a grind here and then another grind here. And

Bob DeMarco [00:20:54]:
seemingly, it's useful, but it's also very cool looking. And I think that that's that's probably the the big draw.

Ken Brock [00:21:03]:
We call those aesthetics in the business.

Bob DeMarco [00:21:05]:
Aesthetics. Yes. Yes. The aesthetics are are what it's all about. Though, you could argue, well, the front is a it's a steeper grind, so you can handle the tucker chores. And then back here is where you slice cardboard or whatever. But it looks cool.

Ken Brock [00:21:19]:
It does look cool, Especially when you get into so, like, Mick does a lot of them with, like, a Damascus. So you really get to see the different layers of the steel when you have a nightmare grind. So it it does look pretty stunning.

Bob DeMarco [00:21:35]:
Okay. You just teased us with the knife. Hold it up. Let's let's let's talk about this knife you just held up. This is a beauty. Okay. So, this to me looks like the Ski and Do. What what is this?

Ken Brock [00:21:49]:
Yeah. This is a Ski and Do. This is a larger version. So I make a couple different patterns, if I can get them both on camera here. This is the original Ski and Do T, and then this is the TG. It's just a little bit wider for those that have slightly bigger hands.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:10]:
What, what does the t and the t g stand for?

Ken Brock [00:22:13]:
The t so you're getting into trade secrets now.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:16]:
Oh, oh, okay. Yeah.

Ken Brock [00:22:18]:
No. No. I'm kidding. The t, the SKIMB T stood for traditional. It was just, what I thought a SKIMB do.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:27]:
Yeah. In the blade, especially, you can yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This one does look more traditional in the blade, profile to my

Ken Brock [00:22:35]:
And the the TG is the same knife, but the g stands for grande.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:41]:
Nice.

Ken Brock [00:22:42]:
Just to differentiate it because it's a little bit bigger.

Bob DeMarco [00:22:45]:
So is the tell me about your, flagship. Like, what are your models and what is your most, what's your flagship?

Ken Brock [00:22:54]:
So the Ski Doo is it's the number one knife that I make. Years ago, I have a lot of Scott heritage. And I was looking around, and all the skiing dudes that I saw were they were the tourist stuff that's made for made for that market. And I said, you know what? I'm a make one that's functional with the high quality steel, and we'll see how it does. And it took off and people ordered that one more than any other. I don't have it's the only one I have. I don't have some of my other models like the, the double d. It's another popular, probably second to the Ski and Do.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:38]:
The Ski and Do model m is, I gotta say that's my favorite with that swedge. That's a that is an absolute beauty. And you mentioned before, you were mentioning who is the oh, Halkowski. That one to me has a just a hint of Halkowski in the blade shape.

Ken Brock [00:23:53]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:23:54]:
So, with the, the with the Skeen Do, the thing to me that makes that knife so, like I mean, it's it's obviously historical. It's always relevant, but right now, it's currently a very relevant knife because there are a lot of people who are starting to carry or or have been carrying fixed blade knives, who who are long time folder I carry both, but, fixed blades are getting a lot more play, and and people are much more interested in fixed blade knives and carrying them day to day than they have been in a long time, I would say, since you could wear it on your belt. So what we're seeing a lot of are drop points, neutral things that you can grab, and it's useful in either orientation if you're pulling it out in reverse grip. And pretty much, you know, in standard grip, an extremely useful drop point knife. And I I think yours, is kinda that's what people are getting right now.

Ken Brock [00:24:59]:
Yeah. I agree. People are you know, the thing about the knife industry is it goes from something's really hot for a while, so, you know, like for a while, everything was Pacal this and Pacal that. And then you had Tantos where, oh, if it wasn't a Tanto, nobody wanted it. And then then you had a period where dudes were wearing kimonos at the Blade Show and and selling their Japanese, handle wrap blades and it just cycles back around.

Bob DeMarco [00:25:31]:
Yeah.

Ken Brock [00:25:31]:
And people are gonna they're gonna find something and then, oh, we'll go it's just like steel. I mean, we could go down the whole rabbit hole about all the different types of steel and how whatever the new hotness is is what everybody wants.

Bob DeMarco [00:25:48]:
Yeah. But in this case, there's a big difference. And that big difference is, a, drop point blades are ubiquitous, and, b, the Ski and Do has been around forever, and and, c, it's not a fad. It's just now, I think, catching on again. I think people feel permission somehow to carry blades, and I think a lot of that has to do with knife rights and organizations like that

Ken Brock [00:26:12]:
and

Bob DeMarco [00:26:12]:
and, you know, that kind of thing. But, I have really noticed the and and have I I've almost been kind of lukewarm about drop points in general. I know it's a a crazy position to take as a knife junkie or or someone who just collects a lot of different knives, but, you know, I've always kind of, had deference to to more exotic blade shapes. But recently, I'd say over the past couple of years since I've been carrying appendix especially, fixed blade knife, I've been I've been my eyes have been drawn more towards, those kinda drop points.

Ken Brock [00:26:51]:
Yeah. They're just useful. They're they're they're kind of a jack of all trades in in the knife business.

Bob DeMarco [00:26:59]:
Okay. Alright. So let's go back to you buy your grinder. I wanna I wanna kinda track how you how you turn this into an encore career because, you don't wanna do security like the other, law enforcement officers. You wanna do this. But it takes a lot of time to get good at. So how does that work with your very time consuming job?

Ken Brock [00:27:19]:
Well, I basically just on my days off, I would spend as much time in the shop as I could, And I made a lot of crappy stuff that I sold to guys at work just to recover the material costs so I could buy more material to keep practicing. And then slowly, I'm starting to say I realized I was getting somewhere when I could pick up one of the ones I threw against the wall because I was mad at it. And I could pick up one of those blades I messed up and I could fix it. And I'm like, now I'm starting to I'm starting to understand why things happen the way they happen. How I can take this grind and I can fix it. And I'm like, okay. Well, now now I'm on track to not be quite so much of a of a screw up.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:10]:
Well, okay. So was there anything in your past life, maybe in your past career, where you had to master something and you finally did?

Ken Brock [00:28:21]:
Oh, yeah. I mean, all the time. I'm I'm not naturally gifted at anything. I've always I've always had to work at at whatever I had to try to do.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:31]:
Right. Okay. I guess my point in bringing that up is that I feel I feel this in myself, and I know that a lot of other people experience, resistance when you go to do something big and difficult. Like, I'm gonna start making knives. Like, that's a big difficult thing, and there are a million reasons why you shouldn't do it. And you usually listen to one of those reasons. It only takes 1. And and and the reason I ask you yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:28:56]:
Everyone has to at some point in their life, you know, if they're gonna keep the same job for a while, they gotta master that. You know, if they're gonna be a parent, they have to master their emotions. You know? Like, there there are lots of things you have to sort of, get in line. And then and then when you really wanna do something, something creative like make knives, you throw up, oh, it's too expensive. I gotta get the all the right exact equipment. Did you get all the right exact equipment when you first started?

Ken Brock [00:29:22]:
No. The only thing I did that I made sure that I spent the money on to to make sure that it was gonna work the way I needed it to work was to get a variable speed grinder. I knew some other guys that had single speed and is just not versatile enough. You can do it, but you're gonna struggle more. So I got a secondhand drill press for my uncle. I got a, basically just a chop saw and then I bought my grinder and made sure that I got a variable speed. So when I'm hogging steel, I can run it wide open. But when I need to switch to like a 120 grip belt, slow it way down, and that way I got a little more control.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:09]:
So it's more forgiving that way when you can slow it down and

Ken Brock [00:30:12]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's just way more precise. Doesn't heat your knife up so so much. And it's not that you're gonna burn the temper out of your knife like a lot of people think, but your hands can only hold, metal that's at a certain degree. So you don't want to you know, when you're profiling, okay. Well, I can just let it run full speed. But when I'm finished grinding, I want it to be I wanna be able to make one pass without having to to dip it and cool it off.

Bob DeMarco [00:30:43]:
Okay. Let's fast forward to today. This is your this is what you do. Tell me about your shop, and and let's get into your process a little bit.

Ken Brock [00:30:52]:
Okay. So I have a, a carport that I had a concrete pad for behind my house. And then I went and got one of these Carolina carports, had it installed, and then I framed it in with some help with some friends and and so we enclosed it. And, now I've added I've added another grinder. I got a TW90 grinder from Travis Wertz. I mean, I know it's been 21 years since I started, but it's like driving a 70 5 Pinto and a 20 24 Cadillac. I mean, it's just it's way more precise. I can tilt it over on the side.

Ken Brock [00:31:31]:
The changes of the, the tooling arms are a whole lot easier. And then I've got a blast cabinet, saw, small milling machine, board and grinder to replace the the, the Dremel. Oh, yeah. A vibratory tumbler. And then I built I built an entire, like, a 8 foot table for my Kitex presses, and I had to build several Kitex presses. But now I can make, like, 5 sheets at once. That, that really helps speed up the process.

Bob DeMarco [00:32:05]:
So that was part of what you were doing, as you were getting started. Right? Kydex for other makers?

Ken Brock [00:32:12]:
Yeah. Yeah. So in 2004, I was contacted by the Highway Knife Company. The lady wanted a knife that I'd put up for sale. And I'm like, look, I'll trade you one of mine for 1 of yours. So she said, okay. And she sent me 2 blanks. I'm like, what is this? I I gotta grind my own blade? And she's like, yeah.

Ken Brock [00:32:33]:
It'll be fun. Well, I didn't realize it was a, a job application. So I made the the I ground the blades. I made the sheaves for them. And she's like, send them to me and let me look at them. So I sent them to her and she said she calls me and she's like, you want a job? Sure. So I made between 2,004 and 2,005, I made I made every Kydex sheath that Hideaway sold. Plus, I was grinding blades for them too.

Ken Brock [00:33:03]:
So my own work kinda was pushed back a little bit because I usually had about 600 of those Hideaways in the shop at any one time.

Bob DeMarco [00:33:12]:
But that's amazing. You were you were getting paid and trained at the same time so that when you got to come back to your own work, did you see a vast improvement when you got back to your stuff?

Ken Brock [00:33:22]:
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I was able to kinda fine tune the way I was doing Kydex as well. And that's when I realized because I started off with just a couple of boards with some foam, and then I have to sit on them. I'm like, this is dumb. So I I found, a Kydex press that would just kinda fold like a waffle maker, and you could lock it down. And then I could leave it and go do something else.

Ken Brock [00:33:49]:
So then that evolved and I was gonna buy a couple more of those presses and I quit making them. So then I had to build my own. So I built, like, 3 more of those. And now, you know, one of my buddies hits me up and, little George hit me last summer. He's like, hey. I need 200 cheese for this knife. I'm like, okay. Send me send me 5 of them.

Ken Brock [00:34:10]:
And I turned them around in 5 days and were was able to get back to him.

Bob DeMarco [00:34:17]:
So I've as a hobbyist, I've made I've made, you know, I'd say 30 kydex sheaves for a couple of crappy knives I made myself and then, for some of the knives I I have already so I could carry them in my and and some of them have turned out, oh, spectacular, and some of them are utter crap, and I can't tell why one is one way and one is the other. But, also, to me, just to me personally, and I don't take offense, but I think it's a horrible process. I hated it. And and Yeah. Like you, I I I had to put weights on my I I had to stand on it for a while, and I was like, wait. I got weights here, and I put those on and but, yeah, I didn't like the process.

Ken Brock [00:34:59]:
A lot of people don't. So, Les, he, he doesn't like flu noodles at all. So he just sends them to me because he knows I'll I'll take care of him. And in return, he does stuff for me all the time too. So it's, it's a mutually beneficial friendship for sure. But it it's one of those things where you you just kinda gotta learn. You gotta figure out where your rivets are gonna go for it to be the best retention, and you gotta figure out so, like, all of my blades will be relieved on the front. Right? So that makes it easier when you're inserting them.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:44]:
Oh, yes.

Ken Brock [00:35:45]:
And then my retention on these, well, if I use the right sheath, it would be.

Bob DeMarco [00:35:50]:
You're talking about the handle scales have sort of a taper in so that they slip in.

Ken Brock [00:35:55]:
Yeah. Because if they're squared off, then you're really gonna have to flare this mouth of this sheath Yes. A lot.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:02]:
And so figure it out.

Ken Brock [00:36:04]:
Like, when I make a scheme do, I just wrap it, let it cool. And then when it comes out, I know my first eyelet needs to go here. If I'm gonna make it to where I can thumb it off, then I heat this up and bend it out. But it doesn't take a whole lot just because I've done it so many times. Yeah. Other ones you gotta you gotta play with a little bit, especially if it's somebody else's blade. You gotta you gotta kinda work it out.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:33]:
What kinda clips do you like?

Ken Brock [00:36:36]:
Well, I don't put any clips on my shoes.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:39]:
But for your own carry? I'm just curious.

Ken Brock [00:36:41]:
For my own carry, I use, either a piece of paracord or I use the, I don't have it in here, but just the little, the nylon loops that snap.

Bob DeMarco [00:36:54]:
Oh, yeah. The IV

Ken Brock [00:36:55]:
Because a lot of times, I'll put 2 of those on a sheath and then I'll carry it small to the back horizontal. So but most of mine are drilled for, for Tek Lok's and see, I'm blanking on the name.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:14]:
The d c

Ken Brock [00:37:14]:
c DCC. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:16]:
Yeah.

Ken Brock [00:37:17]:
So I like those pretty well. I just don't offer them because I never know what people are gonna want. Right? Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:21]:
No. No. No. I I I think it's a losing game to offer. Well, maybe I shouldn't say that, but but there's some people who love the ulti clips and that mechanical thing, and some people like myself love the DCC. This the spring springiness of that steal, but the stoutness is incredible.

Ken Brock [00:37:38]:
I don't know.

Bob DeMarco [00:37:39]:
So I love that. People like their tech locks. He can't win. So I think I think that's when I I do not expect a clip when I buy a a sheath. I just need a good sheath. I'll I'll I'll worry about the clip myself. This might sound like a personal question, but you've mentioned Les George, Tom Mayo, Mick Strider, and a few others. How did how did you meet all these legends of the knife game?

Ken Brock [00:38:05]:
At blade show, most of them. I used to go hang around and and look at all the knives and just struck up conversation with all these guys and then became friends. It's funny you mentioned Joe Watson earlier. And one of our mutual dealers had told me a couple years before I met him, he's like, hey, check this out. I'm like, oh, that's cool. Who made it? He's like, Joe Watson. I said, never heard of him. And so, I went to Blade Show the next year and I go over to to that dealer's table and Joe's standing there.

Ken Brock [00:38:40]:
And so I stood there for a few minutes and well, some of my knives are on the table too and Joe looks down and he's like, damn, Brock. He said, I need to meet him. And the dealer's wife looked at him and looked at me, and then Joe looks down and sees my name tag and he's like, oh. So and so we struck up a friendship because we're kinda in the same same kinda genre for Yeah. Small, conceivable fixed blade. And so then we ended up doing a lot of collaborations together. So this is actually we did something pretty cool. We started it last year where Joe sent me some of his patterns and I sent him some of mine to do our own interpretation of the pattern.

Ken Brock [00:39:25]:
So this is one of Joe's patterns that I put my own spin on. That's

Bob DeMarco [00:39:35]:
like a Quaken or something? It looks like a traditional Japanese. That is so cool.

Ken Brock [00:39:41]:
So instead of doing, like, his Japanese wrap, I put my typical, textured g ten on it and then the file work I normally do on the skin dos. So it was a fun project.

Bob DeMarco [00:39:54]:
So you mentioned Bud Neely much earlier. That reminds me a little bit of a Bud Neely. I know he did his

Ken Brock [00:40:00]:
One of one of his I don't remember what it was called, but I know what you're talking about.

Bob DeMarco [00:40:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. So many knives, so little time, man. So what else do you have on the table in front of you, knives of yours? Let's, mainly everything.

Ken Brock [00:40:16]:
Oh, this one's pretty cool. So, Les George and I did a run of these. We only did a few, but that was one of our friends, Ramaramba 0 knives.

Bob DeMarco [00:40:33]:
Oh my god. Yeah. Rest in peace.

Ken Brock [00:40:37]:
So Go on. So Ram had been working with Les to do a production run of that, what he called the flywheel. And so Les and I were kicking around the idea of doing like a little neck knife. And he's like, hey. I found this pattern for, Ram's flywheel. What if we make some of those? And I'm like, yeah. Cool. Who do we talk to about it? Because Ram wasn't married when he passed away.

Ken Brock [00:41:06]:
And so I reached out to another friend of mine who put us in touch with Ram's mother in the Philippines. So we called her and got permission to to make some of those. So we've, less ground half of them, and I ground the other half of the batch that we did. So that was a neat little neat little thing.

Bob DeMarco [00:41:25]:
Yeah. I I remember, 0 knives. He did a collaboration with Boker, and I never got my hands on that, but I loved his stuff. It was I guess it must have been in the, like, 10 years ago or or longer when I was looking at his work, and then and then sadly, he passed away. And, he was a an ex he seemed like a serious talent.

Ken Brock [00:41:47]:
Yeah. He was. And he was a really cool guy. He, we chatted online. I've never talked to him. And so I walk up to him at Blade Show the year he was there. And, you know, he's a little short Asian guy with glasses. And I'm I'm already stereotyping what he's gonna sound like when he starts talking.

Ken Brock [00:42:05]:
But he opens his mouth and it's like this huge bass Texas draw comes out. I'm like, what? I'm here throwing me off a little bit, guy. So we always, we got along real well. We we made fun. I got a picture somewhere of somebody took a picture of us because we were debating who was taller, because neither one of us are tall at all. So when somebody took the picture, I stood on my tiptoes, and I, threw that in his face. I'm like, yeah. Look.

Ken Brock [00:42:32]:
I'm taller than you. And he's like, no. I got photos, bud. You can't you can't not.

Bob DeMarco [00:42:38]:
So, Ken, how does it work with designs for you? Do you, or you let's call it your catalog. Do you have a catalog of designs and people reach out to you and you make them, or do you do batches and do drops? And how many designs do you have active? There's a lot of questions here.

Ken Brock [00:42:56]:
But you

Bob DeMarco [00:42:57]:
know what I mean? Like, how does your catalog work? So a little bit of both.

Ken Brock [00:43:02]:
I usually take when when somebody has placed an order, and let's say I'll have 20 orders. And then I order steel to do twice that many. And so I'll make what I have for orders and then I'll throw in some extra whatever I feel like making or what I think somebody's gonna want. And then I'll profile them all out at once, grind the bevels all at once, drill the handles, send them the heat treat. And then when they come back, I finish the orders first. And then I'll gradually start making some of the others. And I'll I'll drop them on Instagram or I'll throw them on the website.

Bob DeMarco [00:43:42]:
Okay. Well, when you say orders, does that mean, books, so to speak? You have a a book of people like, do people reach out and say like, you have a model called the rooster, which is a double edged up upswept call what I don't know what it what how exactly you would call it, but it's a beautiful, curved double edged hawk bill. And if I wanted that and I reached out to you, you would just kinda pull that pattern out and do it, or do you or do you have, I need kinda 10 of those and I'll I'll make 10 of them or, like

Ken Brock [00:44:15]:
No. I'll do it 1 at a time because, I mean, a lot of guys will water jet, cut all their stuff, I profile all mine myself, which is slower and, obviously, it takes longer. But I don't wanna have a hundred or something cut out just sitting on the wall and it may not move for a year or 2. So I just do them as as the orders come in. And I got a little list and I'm saying, oh, okay. Bob wanted this. And so I'll start making it. And then when it gets closer to to being done, I'll hit you up and I'll say, hey.

Ken Brock [00:44:50]:
What color handles you want on it? Anything extra? And then I'll finish it out and let you know when it's ready.

Bob DeMarco [00:44:56]:
Alright. So we'll talk about that later. No. I'm just kidding. But, in terms of the, in terms of, like, what it was like in 2021 when you went full time as a knifemaker, what have you noticed in the 3 years? Because you were making knives for a long time before that, but then you have 3 years of more concentrated activity.

Ken Brock [00:45:16]:
Yeah. So I'm terrible at marketing, first of all, because I'm I'm like a lot of guys. I just wanna make a knife and and make a customer happy. And I don't spend enough time probably on social media, throwing stuff out, making reels and that kind of thing. So initially, when I was working full time, I didn't wanna get so behind that somebody would have to wait for a couple of years. So I just kinda was quiet. You know, there was a few people that knew and they would they would put in an order and I made them what I could. And then when I retired and started doing it full time, I'm like, I really gotta fix up my shop to where it's more efficient for me to be able to move stuff around and move this and there.

Ken Brock [00:46:07]:
And it's kinda like having 2 grinders, and now I don't have to change the tooling as much. So I can leave one grinder to do this and the other one I can do this. And so it's definitely a lot faster now than it was then. I mean, I got more time to work on it, but I also get a lot of honeydews that I have to take care of around the house too. So it it's a mixed bag. And then of course, the economy now is kinda depressed somewhat. I mean, let's face it. A custom knife is a luxury good, you know, like a cigar or or something like that.

Ken Brock [00:46:40]:
So I've noticed over the past couple years at Blade Show, the buying has been down. You know, guys that would normally come by, they might buy 2 or 3, but now they're buying 1. So that's been down a little bit, but I definitely have noticed that I'm more, efficient with managing my time because before I didn't have to be.

Bob DeMarco [00:47:01]:
That's funny, you say that because I was just talking to someone, like, an hour ago, a, you know, a a friend of mine. He's a custom knife maker as well, and he was mentioning how, we're talking I was talking about a different show that I'm not going to this year. And and just in general, he was saying, yeah, he has noticed, that at the various shows he goes to, including Blade Show, that he's he can see a certain, like, monetary mark where people used to buy his 500 and above knives because he forges and he does Damascus and stuff, and that's what he was, known for. And now people are buying his below 500, because it's kind of easier to afford. And, you know, it makes it makes sense. But

Ken Brock [00:47:48]:
So that's one reason I started making these sweet. So it's just a little scalpel. And essentially, it's a cut off from a bigger blade. And what I realized years ago at at blade shows, you have some people oh, don't put it away?

Bob DeMarco [00:48:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. Let me go ahead. Go ahead.

Ken Brock [00:48:10]:
What I noticed was some people some people will spend $50 on a knife. Some people will spend 2.50. Some people will spend 10,000. So I try to have a little bit of something for everybody. So I started having these, little cutoff pieces and I would grind them out, send them off to heat treat, and treat them just like a bigger knife. And that way, you got something for everybody, hopefully, that comes by.

Bob DeMarco [00:48:39]:
I I love that. And I'm looking around on my desk, which is a mess. Oh, here it is. Right here. So this, is a little scalpel that I bought from a company called Fudo Fords. They make very expensive high end kitchen knives, something I wasn't interested in and couldn't afford. But this was $30, and it was, $50, something like that, sitting on the table. And I bought it, and it's actually I love this little thing.

Ken Brock [00:49:02]:
Yeah. They're handy.

Bob DeMarco [00:49:04]:
Yeah. And I, you know, I wrap mine with jute. I I'm looking at yours, and I'm like, oh, I love that thing with jute. I'd love to have that, a little scalpel knife like that. They are handy, and and and I think that's smart. Like, you gotta kinda, you kinda have to meet the the audience halfway at at times.

Ken Brock [00:49:23]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:49:23]:
There are times when you have to make your statement. You know, you have your statement pieces, and you're not gonna, like, budge on that. But you you also want people who who who desire your work but can't get it to also have it. Right. And sometimes that means collaborating with a company, who can produce it for you or it means doing these little, cutoff. People love those things. Yeah. And and, actually, I would I would say that people who who don't carry fixed blades love the small fixed blades, as well.

Bob DeMarco [00:49:55]:
So

Ken Brock [00:49:56]:
And another thing we started doing is I ended up with a a supply of, mocha tie and mocha make. And my daughter is is very artsy with with jewelry. So I let her use my shop machinery, and she started making jewelry out of the the Mokumei and Mokota. And so now we got something to catch a ladies eye. You know, you might not. It's 95% guys at Blade Show, but the ladies that that walk around, you can see they're like, oh, there's something that's for me.

Bob DeMarco [00:50:30]:
But everyone like me who's who's on a weekend pass to go to to Blade Show, I'm looking for stuff for my wife. I'm like, what am I gonna get her here? Yeah. Yeah. That that is that's cool. And and, yeah, why isn't why isn't there more mokutai and mokume jewelry? It's such a beautiful material. You would imagine that's

Ken Brock [00:50:47]:
Probably because it's it's it's expensive. I mean, if you get a piece of, you know, like a 3 inch by 4 inch piece of mocha may, it's 3 to $400. So you you have to you have to figure out how many pieces you can get out of that and and try to maximize your material. So maybe or maybe people just don't have time. I mean, I probably wouldn't have time to do it myself, but since my daughter's here, you know, she she helps out. And she she runs the table at the show. So, she she's way more extroverted. Yeah.

Ken Brock [00:51:26]:
Extroverted. Yeah. For sure.

Bob DeMarco [00:51:28]:
That that is interesting. I've talked about that a lot with, with guys on the show here. Just about the blade show experience and how it can be a difficult shift going from, all of the solitary time and activity in the shop making knives to going to, I mean, like, the reverse of solitary. That's a sea of people. And, you know, it it is a a little bit of a culture shock, I would imagine.

Ken Brock [00:51:56]:
Yeah. And it's different for me because I went from I would go to Blade Show and I would hang out with my friends. Because for a long time, I didn't have a table. So I'd go hang out with with Mick and, Les and all of my friends that I didn't get to see very often. And then when I started having a table, now I don't have time to hang out. I've gotta be at the table. So, you know, my my wife will ask. She's like, hey.

Ken Brock [00:52:20]:
Well, what was popular at the show? I'm like, I had no idea. I stayed at the booth or the bathroom. That was that was pretty much my extent of Blade Show.

Bob DeMarco [00:52:29]:
So if if someone came up to your table and I mean, you you might just tell them to pound sand. But if someone came up to your table and said, why why should I buy a Brock blade? What what would you say?

Ken Brock [00:52:42]:
Tell them they shouldn't. If they're not sure about it I mean, plenty of people make knives better than I do. And, honestly, I've told many people. I'm like, look. If you're looking for this, go talk to Joe or go talk to Les. That's how they make their that's how they make their money. I'm retired. This is a yeah.

Ken Brock [00:53:03]:
It's a job, but it's I get my retirement pay. I'm also still working at the department a little bit. If I don't sell a knife, I'm not gonna start. It's nice to have the side money, but I would rather my friends be able to to get that instead of me. I mean, my knives are just fine. I'm I'm not gonna go out and tell you they're better than everybody else's. They're just different. I mean, I use good quality steel and and my shoes are pretty decent.

Ken Brock [00:53:33]:
And I use g ten for my handles on 99% of them. You're not gonna break it. If you break it, I'll fix it, or I'll get you a new one. But is it fundamentally better than anybody else's? No.

Bob DeMarco [00:53:49]:
Well, that's interesting because, really, I mean, that's kind of the assumption I go on with everything, in terms of knives, in terms of custom knives. I'm like, your reputation is good and other people are you know? And I and I and I trust you in your if I like the knife, that's it. I like the knife.

Ken Brock [00:54:11]:
Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:11]:
And and I don't care if it's 154cm or 440 c or MagnaCut. If I like the knife, I like the knife. And oftentimes, having, knowing the person attached to it makes a huge difference. But also getting into someone's style of knife. There's a there's someone, I won't mention him, whose knives I used to be like, what what what is the appeal? And, man, now I want one so badly. It's amazing how I don't know. You just sort of, can change your thinking getting Yeah. You know, getting seeing stuff through other people's eyes.

Bob DeMarco [00:54:47]:
You know?

Ken Brock [00:54:48]:
Yeah. The the there's truth to the statement that people buy the maker as much as the knife. I mean, they they like the person. They like their attitude, their reputation, and their knives are cool. Yeah. They're they're gonna buy a knife from you. There's a maker that I won't name who's been doing it longer than I've been alive. He makes fantastic knives, but he has a terrible attitude when you meet him in person.

Ken Brock [00:55:17]:
I mean, it's one of those things. But do you buy a knife from him? I mean, it depends on how much you want it. Do you care about him or do you care about the knife? Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:26]:
Right.

Ken Brock [00:55:26]:
And I think there's a blend. Right? There's there's a balance of, I like this guy a lot. I feel like we're we almost connect as friends. Like, we can hang out. And I think his knives are really cool. I'm a buy one of his over this guy that's a little bit of a jerk.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. And then you're right. I don't know. I I I'm good at separating the art from the artist, but you meet a jerk, and then you're like,

Ken Brock [00:55:52]:
meh. Yeah.

Bob DeMarco [00:55:53]:
I'm not so I'm not so inclined now. Well, as we wrap here, let let me know, Ken, what are your like, what is the knife you wanna make that you haven't made yet? This is a question I I keep finding myself asking people because, I'm you know, you can kind of track where someone's going, but, you know, you can never tell.

Ken Brock [00:56:11]:
1 I haven't made yet. Well, I've made a lot of crap. Some of it was crap. Some of it was okay. Think I would like to make just like a 4 inch outdoorsman's knife that doesn't look super different than anything else on the market. It's just a drop point. Comfortable, can do anything kinda nice. And I hadn't really sat down and tried it yet.

Ken Brock [00:56:48]:
And I say I would like to make that because that's what I tend to carry most often, is something in that size range when I'm out in the woods. So, that'd probably be the one that that I wanna make. I just haven't got around to it.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:02]:
Well, fantastic. We'll be here for it. We'll watch. We'll we'll see what you come up with. But in the meantime, you got a lot of really cool stuff that you, already made, patterns that you have that that can be ordered. Tell us how people can get in touch with you to order a knife or or, you know, bend your ear.

Ken Brock [00:57:22]:
Yeah. Sure. You hit me up on, Brock underscore Blaze on Instagram or, Brock Blaze dot com. Either one of those will get you to me, send me an email, a direct message, what have you.

Bob DeMarco [00:57:37]:
Yeah. And and I definitely recommend checking them out because I mean, go into Instagram and your website because you get a good variety of the different kind of blades you make. Ken, it's been a real pleasure talking with you, man. I really appreciate it, and, well, thanks for joining me here on the show.

Ken Brock [00:57:53]:
Thanks for having me. I enjoyed it.

Advertisement Announcer [00:57:55]:
Ever start looking for your next knife purchase before your last purchase has even arrived? Then you're probably a knife junkie.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:01]:
There he goes, ladies and gentlemen. Ken Brock of Brock Blades. Do go check out his work. Now that I mentioned it, check out his website too. A lot of people don't keep up their websites. He's got a cool gallery that has a lot of different blades in it. And, check out the one called the rooster. Oh, not only a good song, but a super cool blade.

Bob DeMarco [00:58:23]:
All right, ladies and gentlemen, be sure to join us next Sunday for another great knife conversation Wednesday for the midweek supplemental, and Thursday for Thursday night knives live. Alright. For Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DeMarco saying until next time. Don't take dull for an answer.

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